Guest guest Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Catch 22. To increase Shakti surely is to completely surrender to Her. Complete surrender is an inner process. Yet within that surrender anything, anything at all that is controlling, yoga, pranayama, the safeties, the Tibetans, these are all methods of control, and not of surrendering. Complete surrender, is a complete and utter letting go, is it not? Not trying to control or influence anything at all. Complete faith, that the Mother will completely care for the child. Maybe I have lost the plot somewhere. LOL.I have not been practising the Tibetans. Quote, "No more spinning for you Jeremy" So I have not been practising the Tibetans. However, I have been trying to completely surrender, and of course in that trying, there is the control, rather than the letting go. Catch 22. satchitanada~jeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 My understanding of surrender is just to accept what is and what will be, to give in to it and let it happen. Not to cease all function and choice. You can surrender to something and let it take you where it will, and have your mind open to what happens. But that runs in parallel with what you choose to do daily, and effects choices and decisions, but it doesnt take away your ability to make choices and decisions. Does that make sense....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Hello Jeremy, Surrender to the Shakti is important and needs to be done. Surrendering the responsibilities of choice and discernment are something else altogether. To take your example further we could imagine not working to earn money for food. Or not getting out of bed to greet the new day or night. Trusting that Shakti will care for us doesnt involve the abstention from personal responsibilities. Chopping wood and hauling water still apply. Even in the higher Kundalini expressions. We trust that Shakti will care for us from a Kundalini context. To even have a thought is in some way a method of control. So we " choose " to evoke that control by learning the difference between what the Shakti in us is directing us towards and then following that direction. This is yes a form of control. Also a type of informed consent. It is a form that teaches us through our own abilities to discern a path that is outlined from a divine inner source. Shakti in many ways gives us choices to make and we in turn " make " those choices. When opportunities are presented to a person the choice can be seen as part of the path of learning. Who/What gives us these opportunities? Are they not of God? And as we can understand that they may be an expression of divine grace can we not see that all things even our choices and controls as guided expressions of that same grace? So we taper our ego's in ways that allow for a finer discernment of what is being given for the Kundalini. We look into the thoughts and words between the printed versions and we " feel " what is the appropriate choice or controlled decision to make. We have faith that the Shakti will guide us and it does indeed do this! You can spin if you wish my friend and you can do the five Tibetans. This is a choice that you can make. The phenomena realized from the practice " for you " may not be what you will enjoy at this time. But the option is always yours to have. In the context of surrender to the Shakti or the Kundalini. The point is not to lay down all forms of responsibility for making a choice even if that choice can be seen as making a controlled decision. We can make those choices within the structure of the Kundalini as it is given to us. In this sense we are " choosing " Kundalini. We are making the " choice " to walk this path and work within this path and to taste of its pleasures and hardships. So we are as we choose initiating a control. The control of choice. Once the choice has been made then an entire new structure is given to us to follow. - blessings my friend! - chrism , " jezzwhizz " <jezzwhizz wrote: >Catch 22. To increase Shakti surely is to completely surrender to Her. Complete surrender is an inner process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Wow, great question/statement Perhaps we can not surrender 100%. You may be right. Everything we do to make our life better is a form of control. This may include doing the safties, meditating, going to work, eating, washing, etc. Perhaps some control is good. Some old zen saying suggest that if we let go of all control life will be just fine, every thing will work out just they way it should. All we need to do is just what feels right in the moment and have no egoic attachment to anything. This may be true but I am not ready to try it. If I let go of all control I will stop going to work, and given my lazy nature, I may just lay on the couch all day eating junk food getting fat, unhealthy and end up homeless. Now this may just what I need and may only be a phase that I go through. I may eventually get over this phase of life and end up in a better place, after I have lost my job, house, wife and god knows what else, but…as I wrote, I am not ready to try it. Also since I do still have some ego doing it would may make me very unhappy and cause a great deal of stress as my life becomes undone due to my only doing what I feel like in the moment. I think that letting go of all control may only work if we first let go all ego first. Otherwise it is sure to cause tremendous suffering. Very interesting rich , " jezzwhizz " <jezzwhizz wrote: > > > Catch 22. To increase Shakti surely is to completely surrender to Her. > Complete surrender is an inner process. Yet within that surrender > anything, anything at all that is controlling, yoga, pranayama, the > safeties, the Tibetans, these are all methods of control, and not of > surrendering. Complete surrender, is a complete and utter letting go, is > it not? Not trying to control or influence anything at all. Complete > faith, that the Mother will completely care for the child. > > Maybe I have lost the plot somewhere. LOL.I have not been practising the > Tibetans. Quote, " No more spinning for you Jeremy " So I have > not been practising the Tibetans. However, I have been trying to > completely surrender, and of course in that trying, there is the > control, rather than the letting go. Catch 22. > > > > satchitanada~jeremy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I know in my case that i surrender to changes that come with kundalini but i have never really surrendered my choice or intention . I always make my choices and kundalini brings intuition to help with those choices . I could not imagine complete surrender in any way for myself .. Well even to freely surrender all is a choice to be made i guess . I make my choices and do my best with the intuition and guidance from kundalini gifts . I then do my best to surrender with changes that come afterward . Just my experience . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 hey, I found what Byron Katie says below very helpful. " I Need to Make a Decision: When you become a lover of what is, there are no more decisions to make. In my life, I just wait and watch. I know that the decision will be made in its own time, so I let go of when, where, and how. I like to say I'm a woman with no future. When there are no decisions to make, there's no planned future. All my decisions are made for me, just as they're made for you. When you mentally tell yourself the story that you have something to do with it, you're attaching to an underlying belief. For forty-three years, I was always buying in to my stories about the future, buying in to my insanity. After I came back from the halfway house with a new understanding of reality, I would often return from a long trip to find the house full of dirty laundry, piles of mail on my desk, the dog dish crusted, the bathrooms a mess, and the sink piled high with dishes. The first time this happened, I heard a voice that said, 'Do the dishes.' It was like coming upon the burning bush, and the voice from the bush said, 'Do the dishes.' It didn't sound very spiritual to me, but I just followed its directions. I would stand at the sink and just wash the next dish, or sit with the piles of bills and pay the one on top. Just one at a time. Nothing else was required. At the end of the day, everything would be done, and I didn't need to understand who or what did it. When a thought appears such as 'Do the dishes' and you don't do them, notice how an internal war breaks out. It sounds like this: 'I'll do them later. I should have done them by now. My roommate should have done them. It's not my turn. It's not fair. People will think less of me if I don't do them now.' The stress and weariness you feel are really mental combat fatigue. What I call 'doing the dishes' is the practice of loving the task in front of you. Your inner voice guides you all day long to do simple things such as brush your teeth, drive to work, call your friend, or do the dishes. Even though it's just another story, it's a very short story, and when you follow the direction of the voice, that story ends. We are really alive when we live as simple as that- open, waiting, trusting, and loving to do what appears in front of us now. What we need to do unfolds before us, always- doing the dishes, paying the bills, picking up the children's socks, brushing our teeth. We never receive more than we can handle, and there is always just one thing to do. Whether you have ten dollars or ten million dollars, life never gets more difficult than that. " craig , " jezzwhizz " <jezzwhizz wrote: > > > Catch 22. To increase Shakti surely is to completely surrender to Her. > Complete surrender is an inner process. Yet within that surrender > anything, anything at all that is controlling, yoga, pranayama, the > safeties, the Tibetans, these are all methods of control, and not of > surrendering. Complete surrender, is a complete and utter letting go, is > it not? Not trying to control or influence anything at all. Complete > faith, that the Mother will completely care for the child. > > Maybe I have lost the plot somewhere. LOL.I have not been practising the > Tibetans. Quote, " No more spinning for you Jeremy " So I have > not been practising the Tibetans. However, I have been trying to > completely surrender, and of course in that trying, there is the > control, rather than the letting go. Catch 22. > > > > satchitanada~jeremy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Thank you. If only we would pay heed to these words, and hear with our inner ears.Namaste,Julie--- On Thu, 2/12/09, kundaflame <kundaflame wrote:kundaflame <kundaflame Re: Shakti + Catch 22 Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 11:33 PM hey, I found what Byron Katie says below very helpful. "I Need to Make a Decision: When you become a lover of what is, there are no more decisions to make. In my life, I just wait and watch. I know that the decision will be made in its own time, so I let go of when, where, and how. I like to say I'm a woman with no future. When there are no decisions to make, there's no planned future. All my decisions are made for me, just as they're made for you. When you mentally tell yourself the story that you have something to do with it, you're attaching to an underlying belief. For forty-three years, I was always buying in to my stories about the future, buying in to my insanity. After I came back from the halfway house with a new understanding of reality, I would often return from a long trip to find the house full of dirty laundry, piles of mail on my desk, the dog dish crusted, the bathrooms a mess, and the sink piled high with dishes. The first time this happened, I heard a voice that said, 'Do the dishes.' It was like coming upon the burning bush, and the voice from the bush said, 'Do the dishes.' It didn't sound very spiritual to me, but I just followed its directions. I would stand at the sink and just wash the next dish, or sit with the piles of bills and pay the one on top. Just one at a time. Nothing else was required. At the end of the day, everything would be done, and I didn't need to understand who or what did it. When a thought appears such as 'Do the dishes' and you don't do them, notice how an internal war breaks out. It sounds like this: 'I'll do them later. I should have done them by now. My roommate should have done them. It's not my turn. It's not fair. People will think less of me if I don't do them now.' The stress and weariness you feel are really mental combat fatigue. What I call 'doing the dishes' is the practice of loving the task in front of you. Your inner voice guides you all day long to do simple things such as brush your teeth, drive to work, call your friend, or do the dishes. Even though it's just another story, it's a very short story, and when you follow the direction of the voice, that story ends. We are really alive when we live as simple as that- open, waiting, trusting, and loving to do what appears in front of us now. What we need to do unfolds before us, always- doing the dishes, paying the bills, picking up the children's socks, brushing our teeth. We never receive more than we can handle, and there is always just one thing to do. Whether you have ten dollars or ten million dollars, life never gets more difficult than that." craig Kundalini-Awakening -Systems- 1 , "jezzwhizz" <jezzwhizz@. ..> wrote: > > > Catch 22. To increase Shakti surely is to completely surrender to Her. > Complete surrender is an inner process. Yet within that surrender > anything, anything at all that is controlling, yoga, pranayama, the > safeties, the Tibetans, these are all methods of control, and not of > surrendering. Complete surrender, is a complete and utter letting go, is > it not? Not trying to control or influence anything at all. Complete > faith, that the Mother will completely care for the child. > > Maybe I have lost the plot somewhere. LOL.I have not been practising the > Tibetans. Quote, "No more spinning for you Jeremy" So I have > not been practising the Tibetans. However, I have been trying to > completely surrender, and of course in that trying, there is the > control, rather than the letting go. Catch 22. > > > > satchitanada~ jeremy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Thanks Craig, I needed to read this today. Sarita , "kundaflame" <kundaflame wrote:>> hey, I found what Byron Katie says below very helpful.> "I Need to Make a Decision:> When you become a lover of what is, there are no more decisions to> make. In my life, I just wait and watch. I know that the decision will> be made in its own time, so I let go of when, where, and how. I like> to say I'm a woman with no future. When there are no decisions to> make, there's no planned future. All my decisions are made for me,> just as they're made for you. When you mentally tell yourself the> story that you have something to do with it, you're attaching to an> underlying belief.> For forty-three years, I was always buying in to my stories about the> future, buying in to my insanity. After I came back from the halfway> house with a new understanding of reality, I would often return from a> long trip to find the house full of dirty laundry, piles of mail on my> desk, the dog dish crusted, the bathrooms a mess, and the sink piled> high with dishes. The first time this happened, I heard a voice that> said, 'Do the dishes.' It was like coming upon the burning bush, and> the voice from the bush said, 'Do the dishes.' It didn't sound very> spiritual to me, but I just followed its directions. I would stand at> the sink and just wash the next dish, or sit with the piles of bills> and pay the one on top. Just one at a time. Nothing else was required.> At the end of the day, everything would be done, and I didn't need to> understand who or what did it.> When a thought appears such as 'Do the dishes' and you don't do them,> notice how an internal war breaks out. It sounds like this: 'I'll do> them later. I should have done them by now. My roommate should have> done them. It's not my turn. It's not fair. People will think less of> me if I don't do them now.' The stress and weariness you feel are> really mental combat fatigue.> What I call 'doing the dishes' is the practice of loving the task in> front of you. Your inner voice guides you all day long to do simple> things such as brush your teeth, drive to work, call your friend, or> do the dishes. Even though it's just another story, it's a very short> story, and when you follow the direction of the voice, that story> ends. We are really alive when we live as simple as that- open,> waiting, trusting, and loving to do what appears in front of us now.> What we need to do unfolds before us, always- doing the dishes, paying> the bills, picking up the children's socks, brushing our teeth. We> never receive more than we can handle, and there is always just one> thing to do. Whether you have ten dollars or ten million dollars, life> never gets more difficult than that."> > craig> > , "jezzwhizz"> jezzwhizz@ wrote:> >> > > > Catch 22. To increase Shakti surely is to completely surrender to Her. > > Complete surrender is an inner process. Yet within that surrender> > anything, anything at all that is controlling, yoga, pranayama, the> > safeties, the Tibetans, these are all methods of control, and not of> > surrendering. Complete surrender, is a complete and utter letting go, is> > it not? Not trying to control or influence anything at all. Complete> > faith, that the Mother will completely care for the child.> > > > Maybe I have lost the plot somewhere. LOL.I have not been practising the> > Tibetans. Quote, "No more spinning for you Jeremy" So I have> > not been practising the Tibetans. However, I have been trying to> > completely surrender, and of course in that trying, there is the> > control, rather than the letting go. Catch 22.> > > > > > > > satchitanada~jeremy> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 This may be true but, You need to be ready for whatever happens. You may end up with ten dollars or ten million. You may end up homeless with cancer or you may end up dead or rich or even enlightened. It may be great to let go of all decisions and have no future but as long as you have an ego and any aversion to pain and loss you may end up very unhappy! And if you end up healthy, spiritually developed and rich…well, as long as you like it you will most likely try to cling to it and keep it, in other words, control it. It might be nice to have no aversion to pain, no dislikes of anything, no likes or desires, no wants, no wishes, and no goals but really now, how many of us are there? I am not. Personally I plan on…I decide to… get a good night sleep tonight, wake up and do my yoga, Tibetans, meditate etc., eat a good nourishing breakfast, see my new client and try to help him heal his legs and then go out to an early dinner at an Indian restaurant with my wife. Btw Of course Katie is right about not fighting what is, giving in to the present situation without resentment and just doing what needs being done in the moment. This however does not mean that we no longer have any future plans or decisions to make. rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Yes, the mind is a wonderful instrument (I know some people use the term " mind " to mean consciousness/awareness but I'm using it here as the thought processes), it can plan, predict, learn from past mistakes, etc. It can be likened to a computer. But does one need to bring a computer around with them everywhere they go? This is the current state of humanity, this wonderful tool has become our biggest curse, we are literally possessed by thinking. I wish I knew how to explain what I'm trying to say, but I can't so I'll give a quote by Eckhart Tolle: " To have your attention in the Now is not a denial of what is needed in your life. It is recognizing what is primary. Then you can deal with what is secondary with great ease. It is not saying, " I'm not dealing with things anymore because there is only the Now. " No. Find what is primary first, and make the Now into your friend, not your enemy. Acknowledge it, honor it. When the Now is the foundation and primary focus of your life, then your life unfolds with ease...Putting away the dishes, drawing up a business strategy, planning a trip - what is more important: the doing or the result that you want to achieve through the doing? This moment or some future moment? Do you treat this moment as if it were an obstacle to be overcome? Do you feel you have a future moment to get to that is more important? Almost everyone lives like this most of the time. Since the future never arrives, except as the present, it is a dysfunctional way to live. It generates a constant undercurrent of unease, tension, and discontent. It does not honor live, which is Now and never not Now. " I have found in my own experience that Shakti amplifies the more present I become. The only times I have found trouble since officially starting my spiritual quest is when I step out of the now and focus on the past or worry about the future (one can plan for the future without worry nor needing to hold onto it). I think one aspect of enlightenment is the rising above thought without falling asleep, which can only be done Now. It's a shift from what normal people do: 80% in the past and future, 20% in the present to 80% in the present and 20% in the past and future. And many psychiatrists have noticed that 80% of the thinking of a normal, average person is useless and repetitive, lacking quality. I think that an aspect of enlightenment is clearing up that 80% so that we can feel life in its fullness. just some thoughts craig , " Richard Eisenberg " <Pyaar333 wrote: > > This may be true but, > > You need to be ready for whatever happens. You may end up with ten > dollars or ten million. You may end up homeless with cancer or you > may end up dead or rich or even enlightened. > > It may be great to let go of all decisions and have no future but as > long as you have an ego and any aversion to pain and loss you may end > up very unhappy! > > And if you end up healthy, spiritually developed and rich…well, as > long as you like it you will most likely try to cling to it and keep > it, in other words, control it. > > It might be nice to have no aversion to pain, no dislikes of > anything, no likes or desires, no wants, no wishes, and no goals but > really now, how many of us are there? I am not. > > Personally I plan on…I decide to… get a good night sleep tonight, > wake up and do my yoga, Tibetans, meditate etc., eat a good > nourishing breakfast, see my new client and try to help him heal his > legs and then go out to an early dinner at an Indian restaurant with > my wife. > > Btw > Of course Katie is right about not fighting what is, giving in to the > present situation without resentment and just doing what needs being > done in the moment. This however does not mean that we no longer > have any future plans or decisions to make. > > rich > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 yes, very good, i agree. i always appreciated Echart Toll (spelling?) he states it very well. He also wrote, and I will only paraphrase it, We need to stay in the present and use the mind when we want to…turn it on when we need it and be able to turn it off when we want to also. I never read that in zen writings. Zen tends to read as if the mind must be obliterated completely. But back to the topic, Surrender to the moment without trying to control anything…does that mean not making any plans for the future? I am not sure. Perhaps you make your plans then surrender to however it manifests, let go of any need for it be the way you want it. Wow, how difficult is that… plan an event to be a specific way then not care if it turns out differently. Actually it is easy if you still like the unintended result but what about if the result causes pain, fear, sadness, loss etc? rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Hi folks, As i was reading this, I remembered a description of something called Karma Yoga, by Roger Walsh. I feel it integrates the ideas of action and surrender. My experience has been that as I moved from being caught in the mind into deeper into the soul, the mind becomes a tool, not the master, and through observing its antics and stories, and how they play out in relation to whats happening, I can repattern the mind. I copied this off a website. I find being clear on my intention (i.e. what I want to manifest) is so important. love Bruce Karma Yoga is the yoga of work and action and service in the world where daily activities are transformed into a contemplative practice. The essence of Karma Yoga is: 1) dedicating whatever you're doing to a higher goal (traditionally offering it to God); and 2) while simultaneously relinquishing attachment to the outcome. 1. Stopping what you are doing 2. Coming into the present moment 3. Setting your intention & dedicating the activity 4. Doing the activity as impeccably as you can (committing to impeccability – giving yourself 100% to the activity) 5. Bringing as much awareness at you can to your experience and monitoring all the reactions (including mental and emotional )that come up 6. Consciously working with those reactions 7. Attempting to release attachment to how things are going (i.e., to results) 8. Taking time to reflect and learn about the whole process 9. Offering or dedicating the benefits A point that Roger makes throughout his presentation is that one can practice karma yoga in all of life's activities – at work, doing the dishes, through service work, in relationships, etc. This is an important mind shift for me as it's much easier to be conscious of doing karma yoga when involved in meaningful service types of activities versus when I'm cleaning the house! In 5 short video clips, Roger goes into more depth on each of these points. In order to view them, you need to be a member of Integral Naked ($10 per month, cancel anytime and the first month is free). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 yES....VERY GOOD THESE IDEAS ARE REFLECTED N MANY PLACES I like what the Bhagavad Gita says on this subject...devote all of your actions and the fruit of all of your actions to Krishna Rich , " bruce_oom " <bruce_oom wrote: > > Hi folks, > > As i was reading this, I remembered a description of something called > Karma Yoga, by Roger Walsh. I feel it integrates the ideas of action > and surrender. My experience has been that as I moved from being > caught in the mind into deeper into the soul, the mind becomes a > tool, not the master, and through observing its antics and stories, > and how they play out in relation to whats happening, I can repattern > the mind. I copied this off a website. I find being clear on my > intention (i.e. what I want to manifest) is so important. > > love > Bruce > > Karma Yoga is the yoga of work and action and service in the world > where daily activities are transformed into a contemplative practice. > The essence of Karma Yoga is: 1) dedicating whatever you're doing to > a higher goal (traditionally offering it to God); and 2) while > simultaneously relinquishing attachment to the outcome. > 1. Stopping what you are doing > 2. Coming into the present moment > 3. Setting your intention & dedicating the activity > 4. Doing the activity as impeccably as you can (committing to > impeccability – giving yourself 100% to the activity) > 5. Bringing as much awareness at you can to your experience and > monitoring all the reactions (including mental and emotional )that > come up > 6. Consciously working with those reactions > 7. Attempting to release attachment to how things are going (i.e., to > results) > 8. Taking time to reflect and learn about the whole process > 9. Offering or dedicating the benefits > > A point that Roger makes throughout his presentation is that one can > practice karma yoga in all of life's activities – at work, doing the > dishes, through service work, in relationships, etc. This is an > important mind shift for me as it's much easier to be conscious of > doing karma yoga when involved in meaningful service types of > activities versus when I'm cleaning the house! > In 5 short video clips, Roger goes into more depth on each of these > points. In order to view them, you need to be a member of Integral > Naked ($10 per month, cancel anytime and the first month is free). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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