Rapid Format Awakening: Nowhere to Hide

June 13, 2009

Hi Sparrow,

What you say is right on! Poor teachers take a lot of bashing from their own

students during the process, LOL! Patience and forgiveness of a supernatural

kind is what makes the difference between a bogus guru and the real deal.

Yes, the RFA is excruciating. The ego is challenged in all sorts of ways, in all

the places where it hurts the most. The pitfalls are tailored on each individual

in such a way that no stone is left unturned, and you have to confront all of

your own demons one by one, all the time.

The most painful part is that your own conscience keeps assessing your

performance 24/7 and is aware of all your failures. The ultimate challenge is

that of being able to forgive oneself in the face of such glaring flaws, even as

you lose the ability to fool yourself into self-complacency. Long periods of

self-loathing and moral torture are to be expected--what they call the dark

night of the soul, perhaps.

Once the process begins, there is no hiding.

Sel

, " ordinarysparrow "

<ordinarysparrow wrote:

>

> Namaste

>

> dear Chrism

>

> This is so on target for me personally. . . will not go into it at

> length. . .but with one of the teachers from India this is such an apt

> description of what it can look like. . .

>

> i do not have words to describe the force and the drive of what this

> beloved teacher put me through for about seven years. . .it blew every

> conceivable frame or imagination of what a teacher was " suppose to be

> like " . . .the times i called him a brutal b_______ are not countable. .

June 13, 2009

Namaste

dear Selena

Thanks for your comment. . . I so agree. . . " The ego is challenged in

all sorts of ways, in all the places where it hurts the most. "

When i entered there was anticipation of giving up the negative holdings

of the egoic and was so open to that, but what i found much more

difficult were the concepts where the egoic defends with the positive.

.. . i had kept the ego safe by beliefs and lots of energy into " right

relationship " and " reverence for life " , in concepts of fairness,

gentleness, my understanding of justice,and commitment to following

spiritual discipline, such as little egoic formulas like " if i am fair,

gentle, just with another, then the other will be that way with me " . . .

if i give my best and if i am sincere then the person will respond in

like manner. . . When all my positive egoic formulas where met with

what i experienced as cruelty, which is a button i wear that can easily

provoke rage, i would find a cesspool of raw sludge i had stored

underneath. . . all the programming of cause and effect were thrown to

the ground. . . .and began to see the egoic attachments to what i

thought was positive as well as the ones i considered negative. . .all

the egoic formulas where dust in the wind. . .and when the positives

where crushed that is when i came to see what lies beneath is really no

difference with what is considered the positive and negative wrappings

of the ego. . .for myself it has brought the realization the core of

the ego is narcissism, the ego is me, my, mine. . . it took many years

to really look at the ego for what it is and what it is not without

trying to give it some type of justification. . .

sure do not want to give the impression i have been through

annihilation of the ego, for i still have the egoic, just nowadays can

readily identify it and step around it with greater awareness. . .and

can also be more compassionate towards it. . .but know it is not the

true Self. . .

This week went back and re-read an interview from one of my teachers

from India, Amma. . .another teacher from India is the one i have gone

through the strongest egoic challenge. . .whereas Amma has her ways

that are perhaps more precise and deadly. . .it seems that each teacher

is given there own methods and ways, depending on the student. . . .

I have added the interview from Amma for it speaks of ego, the student

and the teacher. . .

I will also add this opinion, many people come to spiritual teachers

with many hurts and wounds, and some of those wounds cause personality

structures that cannot withstand the intense fire of the alchemical

process that is required for deep awakening. . .and K Ma and the

teachers need to be able to discern each person that comes forth. . . i

know there are bad teachers, but i would imagine that many of the " ain't

she/he awful " stories of BAD gurus come from people that are personality

structures that do not have the ability to withstand ambiguity. . . K Ma

and teachers take us into is the heart of the great land of Unknowing

and Unknowable, the Great Mystery where we are of constant ambiguity and

it shall never be contained by our egoic mind that wants everything in

structure and formulas that are only there to insure the life of the

egoic. . . .many cannot withstand and split. . . .

i have often thought that being a spiritual teacher would be the hardest

job in the world. . .downing a red cape and walking into a arena with a

angry bull would be a breeze compared to bringing forth what is real

with a group of students all with egos. . .with success being the egos

have got to go. . .mercy! Who would choose that life? Surely they are

called. . . .

i trust and know from my own process the lotuses really do come

up from the mire. . .and this i trust in this situation for all

concerned. . .a greater good is coming forth here and my heart extends

to for i see him with the deepest of desire and commitment to

impeccability and integrity. . .and my heart extends to the person that

feels a bit scorched. . and may cool gentle waters soothe your soul,

dear one. . .

just yesterday i listened to an interview with a spiritual teacher from

India. . . he said something very interesting. . .He stated that once

Kundalini Ma is awakened from that place on EVERYTHING that happens to

the aspirant is auspicious. . . . .EVERYTHING that happens is for

higher purpose. . . .EVERYTHING that happens is suppose to happen. . .

..EVERYTHING is working together for the good. . .

This i hold for each and everyone concerned with this situation. . .

An interview on ego, students, and teachers

WIE: What is ego?

MATA AMRITANANDAMAYI: You are actually asking, what is unreality? But

how can unreality be described? What use is there in talking about

something that isn't real, that is nonexistent? And how can you speak

about that which is real? Amma can only give you a few hints. The mind

is the ego. But the ego is a big lie—it is a liar. It is unreal.

There was a cowherd boy who took his cows to the meadows every morning

and brought them back to the cowshed at the end of the day. One evening,

as he was tying the cows up for the night, the boy found that one of

them was missing her rope. He feared that she might run away, but it was

too late to go and buy a new rope. The boy didn't know what to do, so he

went to a wise man who lived nearby and sought his advice. The wise man

told the boy to pretend to tie the cow, and make sure that the cow saw

him doing it. The boy did as the wise man suggested and pretended to tie

the cow. The next morning the boy discovered that the cow had remained

still throughout the night. He untied all the cows as usual, and they

all went outside. He was about to go to the meadows when he noticed that

the cow with the missing rope was still in the cowshed. She was standing

on the same spot where she had been all night. He tried to coax her to

join the herd, but she wouldn't budge. The boy was perplexed. He went

back to the wise man who said, " The cow still thinks she is tied up. Go

back and pretend to untie her. " The boy did as he was told, and the cow

happily left the cowshed. This is what the guru does with the ego of the

disciple. The guru helps untie that which was never there. Like the cow,

due to our ignorance, we believe that we are bound by the ego when, in

fact, we are completely free. We need to be convinced of this, however.

The ego is an illusion with no existence of its own. It appears to be

real because of the power it derives from the Atman [self]. It is

animated by the Atman. The ego itself can be compared to dead matter;

for without the Atman, it would have no life. Stop supporting the

ego, and it will withdraw and disappear. We ourselves lend the unreal

ego its reality. Expose it for what it is, or rather, for what it isn't,

and that will be the end of it.

A dog wags its tail—the tail does not wag the dog. If the tail were

to wag the dog, it would be disastrous! The same is true with the mind.

The mind, or the ego, should be nothing more than a useful tool; a

sadhaka [spiritual seeker] shouldn't let him- or herself be ruled by

the whims and fancies of the mind.

The ego consists of our thoughts and our mind. Our thoughts are our own

creation. We make them real by cooperating with them. If we withdraw our

support, they will dissolve. We simply have to observe our thoughts. The

clouds in the sky assume different shapes, and they change constantly.

You may see clouds drifting by that look like faces of the gods or

different animals or sailing ships. A small child may believe that these

shapes are real, but, of course, they are only illusions. In the same

way, our ever changing thoughts drift through the mind, which is the

ego. They assume different forms, but they are no more real than the

shape of a cloud in the sky. If we simply witness our thoughts as they

drift by, they will no longer have any effect on us or influence us in

any way.

A lion made of sandalwood is real to a child, but to a grown-up it's a

piece of sandalwood. For the child, the wood is concealed, revealing

only the lion. The grown-up may also enjoy the lion, but he knows it is

not real. For him, the wood is real, not the lion. In the same way, to a

Self-realized soul, the entire universe is nothing but the essence, the

" wood " that comprises everything, the Absolute Brahman or Consciousness.

WIE: What is ego death for the true seeker of moksha [liberation]?

MA: If the ego is unreal, what death are you talking about? We

superimpose the unreal on the real. What really exists is Brahman.

There is no discovery, only uncovering.

WIE: What are the signs of true ego transcendence?

MA: One who has gone beyond the ego becomes an offering to the world,

like an incense stick that burns itself out while bestowing its

fragrance to others. For such a person there is no sense of otherness.

It is difficult to say what a clear sign would be. People pretend or

they imitate this and that quality—but for a real master, one who

truly doesn't identify with the ego, his or her entire being, and every

action, is a pure expression of divine love and self-sacrifice. Divine

love and self-sacrifice cannot be imitated.

WIE: Is it possible for a master to completely annihilate their ego?

MA: A mahatma [great soul] is one who disidentifies with the ego; they

see everything as an extension of the Self. Due to our ignorance, we

identify with the ego, with that which is not real, but a mahatma is not

identified at all with the ego, with that which is unreal.

WIE: How does the guru help to annihilate the ego of the disciple?

MA: A true master creates the situations that will allow the seeker to

come out of his or her dream. The disciple wants to continue to sleep

and to dream, but the master wants to awaken him or her. The whole

effort of the master is to somehow bring the disciple back to the

reality of his or her true existence.

WIE: It is said that the ego will go to any length to maintain its grip

on the individual, even masquerading as our own spiritual longing. What

are the most important qualities for success in the fight against the

endless tricks of the ego?

MA: Performing one's own dharma with utmost shraddha. Shraddha is

very important at the beginning stage on the spiritual path; it is

absolutely essential.

WIE: What is shraddha? Is it faith in the possibility of transcending

the ego in this life?

MA: Shraddha is more than just faith. It is trust and love. Both

trust and love are necessary to transcend the ego—trust in the

existence of a higher reality, love for that reality and an intense

longing to realize it.

WIE: What is the best way to cultivate discrimination in the face of

all the temptations of the ego?

MA: Just as a little boy grows out of his teddy bear and other toys, a

true seeker gains the power to discriminate between the eternal and

noneternal as his understanding grows and as he advances along the path.

The power of discrimination dawns within us as we gain proper

understanding and as we mature. As we learn how to evaluate life's

experiences in the proper manner, we automatically begin to use our

discriminative intelligence. It is an inner blossoming that takes

place—like a bud opening up. It is part of a slow but steady

process.

There is a divine message hidden behind every experience life brings

you—both the positive and negative experiences. Just penetrate

beneath the surface and you will receive the message. Nothing comes from

outside; everything is within you. The whole universe is within you.

There will be many temptations and challenges along the way. Only an

experienced person can help you. The way to moksha is very subtle,

and it is easy for a spiritual aspirant to become deluded.

WIE: What is the role of the spiritual master in guiding the seeker

on the path to moksha or liberation?

MA: If you want to learn how to drive, you need to be taught by an

experienced driver. A child needs to be taught how to tie his shoelaces.

And how can you learn mathematics without a teacher? Even a pickpocket

needs a teacher to teach him the art of stealing. If teachers are

indispensable in ordinary life, wouldn't we need a teacher even more on

the spiritual path, which is so extremely subtle?

Though that subtle knowledge is our true nature, we have been identified

with the world of names and forms for so long, thinking them to be real.

We now need to cease that identification. But in reality, there is

nothing to teach. A master simply helps you to complete the journey.

If you want to go to a distant place, you may want to buy a map. But no

matter how well you study the map, if you are heading toward a totally

strange land, an unknown place, you won't know anything about that place

until you actually arrive. Nor will the map tell you much about the

journey itself, about the ups and downs of the road and the possible

dangers on the way. It is therefore better to receive guidance from

someone who has completed the journey, someone who knows the way from

his or her own experience.

On the spiritual journey, we have to really listen to and then

contemplate what the master says. We have to be humble in order to

receive. When we really listen and then sincerely contemplate, we will

assimilate the teachings properly.

WIE: Why is submission to a guru said to be so important in helping

the disciple transcend the ego?

MA: The seat of the ego is the mind. Any other obstacle can be removed

by using the mind except the ego, because the ego is subtler than the

mind. It is only through obedience to the one who is established in that

supreme experience that one can conquer the ego.

WIE: You didn't have an external guru, yet you completely transcended

your ego. It seems you depended on the formless as your guru to take you

all the way.

MA: Yes, you could say that. But Amma considered the whole of

creation to be her guru.

WIE: Is perfect obedience to the guru ultimately the same as ego

death?

MA: Yes. That is why the satguru [realized spiritual master] is

depicted in the Kathopanishad as Yama, the lord of death. The death of

the disciple's ego can take place only with the help of a satguru.

Obedience isn't something that can be forced on the disciple. The

disciple is tremendously inspired by the master, who is an embodiment of

humility. Obedience and humility simply happen in a true master's

presence.

WIE: It takes rare courage to face ego death.

MA: Yes, very few can do it. If you have the courage and determination

to knock at the door of death, you will find that there is no death. For

even death, or the death of the ego, is an illusion.

WIE: There have been some very powerful spiritual teachers who seem to

have been driven by the impure motives of the ego. Do you think that

spiritual experiences could at times empower the ego rather than destroy

it?

MA: Amma doesn't agree that those teachers to whom you are referring are

realized. A Self-realized master is completely independent. Such beings

don't have to depend on anything external for their happiness because

they are full of bliss, which they derive from within their own Atman.

Amma would say that everyone forms part of a crowd, except the realized

masters. In fact, except for those rare souls, there are no individuals.

Only one who is realized is uniquely individual and totally independent

of the crowd. Only such a soul is alone in the world of bliss.

True spiritual masters have to set an example through their actions and

their lives. Those who abuse their position and power, taking advantage

of others, obviously do not derive all their happiness and contentment

from within themselves, and so they cannot be realized masters. Why

would a realized master crave adulation or power? Those who do are still

under the grip of the ego. They may claim to be realized, but they are

not. A perfect master doesn't claim anything. He simply is—he is

presence.

Until the moment before realization takes place, a person is not safe

from the temptations of his or her desires.

WIE: So would you say that people like this have become more proud as a

result of having had spiritual experiences? Can spiritual experiences at

times strengthen the ego in a negative way?

MA: The people to whom this happens are deluded, and they confuse others

as well. They will actually push others into delusion. Some people gain

a glimpse of something, or have a spiritual experience, and then think

they have attained moksha. Only someone who is not realized will think,

" I am spiritual, I am realized, " and this will create a strong, subtle

ego. A subtle ego is more dangerous than a gross ego. Even the

individuals themselves won't understand that the subtle ego is leading

or motivating them, and this subtle ego will become part of their

nature. Such people will do anything for name and fame.

Amma also feels that this kind of pride makes people lose their capacity

to listen. And listening is extremely important on the spiritual path. A

person who does not listen cannot be humble. And it is only when we are

truly humble that the already existing pure Consciousness will be

unfolded within us. Only one who is humbler than the humblest can be

considered greater than the greatest.

WIE: Since it is possible for spiritual experiences to feed the ego,

is it necessary to cultivate purity first?

MA: There is no need to get obsessed with purity. Focus on your dharma,

performing it with the right attitude and with love. Then purity will

follow.

WIE: What is dharma, in the way you are using it?

MA: Dharma is the right action in the right place at the right time.

WIE: How can one know what one's dharma is?

MA: By loving life with the right attitude and having the right

understanding, we will know what the right thing to do is. And then, if

we perform our dharma, purity will come.

WIE: How do you cultivate that kind of love?

MA: Love isn't something that can be cultivated—it's already within

us in all its fullness. Life cannot exist without love; they are

inseparable. Life and love are not two; they are one and the same. A

little bit of the proper channeling of your energies will awaken the

love within you.

You need to have a strong intent to reach the goal of liberation; you

need to be focused on that goal. Then such qualities as love, patience,

enthusiasm and optimism will spring forth within you. These qualities

will work to help you attain your goal.

WIE: You are revered by so many as the embodiment of unconditional love,

and you literally hug everyone who comes to see you. But I have heard

that you can also be very fierce with your students. How do these two

very different methods of teaching go together?

MA: For Amma there are not two different methods; Amma has only one

method, and that is love. That love manifests as patience and

compassion. However, if a deer comes and eats the tender flower buds in

your garden, you cannot be gentle with the deer and say softly, " Please

deer, don't eat the flowers. " You have to shout at it and even wave a

stick. It is sometimes necessary to show this type of mood in order to

correct the disciple. Kali is the compassionate mother in her

disciplining mood. But look into her eyes—there is no anger there.

Amma only disciplines those who have chosen to stay close to her, and

she only does this when they are ready to be disciplined. A disciple is

one who is willing to be disciplined. The guru first binds the disciple

with boundless, unconditional love so that when the disciple eventually

is disciplined, he or she is aware of the presence of that love in all

situations.

Amma helps her children to always be aware and alert. Love has many

aspects. When Amma disciplines her children, she does this with the sole

purpose of guiding them along the path to help them to fully blossom.

This blossoming will happen only if a conducive atmosphere is created.

It can never be forced. A true master does not force his or her

disciples because pure consciousness cannot force anything. The master

is like space, like the boundless sky, and space cannot hurt you. Only

the ego can force and hurt. Amma will patiently continue to create

opportunities for that inner opening, that blossoming, to take place

within her children.

The guru-disciple relationship is the highest. The bond of love between

the guru and shishya [disciple] is so powerful that one may sometimes

feel there is no guru and no shishya—all sense of separation

disappears.

WIE: What do you do when the ego takes hold of one of your disciples?

MA: Amma lovingly helps her children to realize the danger of being

under the grip of the ego, and she shows them how to get out of it.

WIE: Some Western psychotherapists and spiritual teachers believe that

we must develop strong egos before we seek ego transcendence. They say

that most of us have weak or wounded egos as a result of the emotional

and psychological traumas that we have suffered over the course of our

lives, and they advocate various forms of therapy to help us build up

our character, ego and sense of individuality. You had quite a difficult

childhood; you had to bear harsh treatment and even physical abuse, and

yet you transcended your ego completely. Would you agree with these

teachers that in the pursuit of enlightenment, we first need to build up

the ego before we endeavor to transcend it?

MA: Most people are deeply wounded within in some way, and those wounds

have been caused by the past. Those wounds usually remain unhealed. They

are wounds not only from this life but from previous lives as well, and

no doctor or psychologist can heal them. A doctor or psychologist can

help people to cope with life to a certain extent, in spite of those

wounds, but they cannot actually heal them. They cannot penetrate deeply

enough into their own minds to remove their own wounds, let alone

penetrate deeply enough into the patient's mind. Only a true master, who

is completely free from any limitations and who is beyond the mind, can

penetrate into a person's mind and treat all those unhealed wounds with

his or her infinite energy. Spiritual life, especially under the

guidance of a satguru, does not weaken the psyche; it strengthens it.

The ultimate cause of all emotional wounds is our separation from the

Atman, from our true nature. It may be necessary for a person to go to a

psychologist, and that is fine—but to put spirituality aside in

order to first strengthen the ego is to perpetuate that sense of

separation, and it will only lead to further suffering. What is the use

in thinking, " I will go to the doctor as soon as I feel better " ? To wait

for either the inner or outer circumstances to be " just right " before we

embark on the spiritual journey is like standing on the seashore waiting

for the waves to completely subside before we jump into the ocean. This

will never happen. Every moment of life is so utterly precious, such a

rare opportunity. We should not waste it.

, " selena255 "

<selena wrote:

>

> Hi Sparrow,

>

> What you say is right on! Poor teachers take a lot of bashing from

their own students during the process, LOL! Patience and forgiveness of

a supernatural kind is what makes the difference between a bogus guru

and the real deal.

>

> Yes, the RFA is excruciating. The ego is challenged in all sorts of

ways, in all the places where it hurts the most. The pitfalls are

tailored on each individual in such a way that no stone is left

unturned, and you have to confront all of your own demons one by one,

all the time.

>

> The most painful part is that your own conscience keeps assessing your

performance 24/7 and is aware of all your failures. The ultimate

challenge is that of being able to forgive oneself in the face of such

glaring flaws, even as you lose the ability to fool yourself into

self-complacency. Long periods of self-loathing and moral torture are to

be expected--what they call the dark night of the soul, perhaps.

>

> Once the process begins, there is no hiding.

>

> Sel

>

> ,

" ordinarysparrow " ordinarysparrow@ wrote:

> >

> > Namaste

> >

> > dear Chrism

> >

> > This is so on target for me personally. . . will not go into it at

> > length. . .but with one of the teachers from India this is such an

apt

> > description of what it can look like. . .

> >

> > i do not have words to describe the force and the drive of what this

> > beloved teacher put me through for about seven years. . .it blew

every

> > conceivable frame or imagination of what a teacher was " suppose to

be

> > like " . . .the times i called him a brutal b_______ are not

countable. .

>

June 13, 2009

Thanks for this post Ordinary Sparrow, it is a big help for me on understanding

the ego and how it works. Also, the interview..great information.

blessings & love,

Linda

, " ordinarysparrow "

<ordinarysparrow wrote:

>

> Namaste

>

> dear Selena

>

> Thanks for your comment. . . I so agree. . . " The ego is challenged in

> all sorts of ways, in all the places where it hurts the most. "

>

> When i entered there was anticipation of giving up the negative holdings

> of the egoic and was so open to that, but what i found much more

> difficult were the concepts where the egoic defends with the positive.

> . . i had kept the ego safe by beliefs and lots of energy into " right

> relationship " and " reverence for life " , in concepts of fairness,

> gentleness, my understanding of justice,and commitment to following

> spiritual discipline, such as little egoic formulas like " if i am fair,

> gentle, just with another, then the other will be that way with me " . . .

> if i give my best and if i am sincere then the person will respond in

> like manner. . . When all my positive egoic formulas where met with

> what i experienced as cruelty, which is a button i wear that can easily

> provoke rage, i would find a cesspool of raw sludge i had stored

> underneath. . . all the programming of cause and effect were thrown to

> the ground. . . .and began to see the egoic attachments to what i

> thought was positive as well as the ones i considered negative. . .all

> the egoic formulas where dust in the wind. . .and when the positives

> where crushed that is when i came to see what lies beneath is really no

> difference with what is considered the positive and negative wrappings

> of the ego. . .for myself it has brought the realization the core of

> the ego is narcissism, the ego is me, my, mine. . . it took many years

> to really look at the ego for what it is and what it is not without

> trying to give it some type of justification. . .

>

> sure do not want to give the impression i have been through

> annihilation of the ego, for i still have the egoic, just nowadays can

> readily identify it and step around it with greater awareness. . .and

> can also be more compassionate towards it. . .but know it is not the

> true Self. . .

>

> This week went back and re-read an interview from one of my teachers

> from India, Amma. . .another teacher from India is the one i have gone

> through the strongest egoic challenge. . .whereas Amma has her ways

> that are perhaps more precise and deadly. . .it seems that each teacher

> is given there own methods and ways, depending on the student. . . .

>

> I have added the interview from Amma for it speaks of ego, the student

> and the teacher. . .

>

> I will also add this opinion, many people come to spiritual teachers

> with many hurts and wounds, and some of those wounds cause personality

> structures that cannot withstand the intense fire of the alchemical

> process that is required for deep awakening. . .and K Ma and the

> teachers need to be able to discern each person that comes forth. . . i

> know there are bad teachers, but i would imagine that many of the " ain't

> she/he awful " stories of BAD gurus come from people that are personality

> structures that do not have the ability to withstand ambiguity. . . K Ma

> and teachers take us into is the heart of the great land of Unknowing

> and Unknowable, the Great Mystery where we are of constant ambiguity and

> it shall never be contained by our egoic mind that wants everything in

> structure and formulas that are only there to insure the life of the

> egoic. . . .many cannot withstand and split. . . .

>

> i have often thought that being a spiritual teacher would be the hardest

> job in the world. . .downing a red cape and walking into a arena with a

> angry bull would be a breeze compared to bringing forth what is real

> with a group of students all with egos. . .with success being the egos

> have got to go. . .mercy! Who would choose that life? Surely they are

> called. . . .

>

> i trust and know from my own process the lotuses really do come

> up from the mire. . .and this i trust in this situation for all

> concerned. . .a greater good is coming forth here and my heart extends

> to for i see him with the deepest of desire and commitment to

> impeccability and integrity. . .and my heart extends to the person that

> feels a bit scorched. . and may cool gentle waters soothe your soul,

> dear one. . .

>

> just yesterday i listened to an interview with a spiritual teacher from

> India. . . he said something very interesting. . .He stated that once

> Kundalini Ma is awakened from that place on EVERYTHING that happens to

> the aspirant is auspicious. . . . .EVERYTHING that happens is for

> higher purpose. . . .EVERYTHING that happens is suppose to happen. . .

> .EVERYTHING is working together for the good. . .

>

> This i hold for each and everyone concerned with this situation. . .

>

> An interview on ego, students, and teachers

>

> WIE: What is ego?

>

> MATA AMRITANANDAMAYI: You are actually asking, what is unreality? But

> how can unreality be described? What use is there in talking about

> something that isn't real, that is nonexistent? And how can you speak

> about that which is real? Amma can only give you a few hints. The mind

> is the ego. But the ego is a big lie—it is a liar. It is unreal.

>

> There was a cowherd boy who took his cows to the meadows every morning

> and brought them back to the cowshed at the end of the day. One evening,

> as he was tying the cows up for the night, the boy found that one of

> them was missing her rope. He feared that she might run away, but it was

> too late to go and buy a new rope. The boy didn't know what to do, so he

> went to a wise man who lived nearby and sought his advice. The wise man

> told the boy to pretend to tie the cow, and make sure that the cow saw

> him doing it. The boy did as the wise man suggested and pretended to tie

> the cow. The next morning the boy discovered that the cow had remained

> still throughout the night. He untied all the cows as usual, and they

> all went outside. He was about to go to the meadows when he noticed that

> the cow with the missing rope was still in the cowshed. She was standing

> on the same spot where she had been all night. He tried to coax her to

> join the herd, but she wouldn't budge. The boy was perplexed. He went

> back to the wise man who said, " The cow still thinks she is tied up. Go

> back and pretend to untie her. " The boy did as he was told, and the cow

> happily left the cowshed. This is what the guru does with the ego of the

> disciple. The guru helps untie that which was never there. Like the cow,

> due to our ignorance, we believe that we are bound by the ego when, in

> fact, we are completely free. We need to be convinced of this, however.

>

> The ego is an illusion with no existence of its own. It appears to be

> real because of the power it derives from the Atman [self]. It is

> animated by the Atman. The ego itself can be compared to dead matter;

> for without the Atman, it would have no life. Stop supporting the

> ego, and it will withdraw and disappear. We ourselves lend the unreal

> ego its reality. Expose it for what it is, or rather, for what it isn't,

> and that will be the end of it.

>

> A dog wags its tail—the tail does not wag the dog. If the tail were

> to wag the dog, it would be disastrous! The same is true with the mind.

> The mind, or the ego, should be nothing more than a useful tool; a

> sadhaka [spiritual seeker] shouldn't let him- or herself be ruled by

> the whims and fancies of the mind.

>

> The ego consists of our thoughts and our mind. Our thoughts are our own

> creation. We make them real by cooperating with them. If we withdraw our

> support, they will dissolve. We simply have to observe our thoughts. The

> clouds in the sky assume different shapes, and they change constantly.

> You may see clouds drifting by that look like faces of the gods or

> different animals or sailing ships. A small child may believe that these

> shapes are real, but, of course, they are only illusions. In the same

> way, our ever changing thoughts drift through the mind, which is the

> ego. They assume different forms, but they are no more real than the

> shape of a cloud in the sky. If we simply witness our thoughts as they

> drift by, they will no longer have any effect on us or influence us in

> any way.

>

> A lion made of sandalwood is real to a child, but to a grown-up it's a

> piece of sandalwood. For the child, the wood is concealed, revealing

> only the lion. The grown-up may also enjoy the lion, but he knows it is

> not real. For him, the wood is real, not the lion. In the same way, to a

> Self-realized soul, the entire universe is nothing but the essence, the

> " wood " that comprises everything, the Absolute Brahman or Consciousness.

>

> WIE: What is ego death for the true seeker of moksha [liberation]?

>

> MA: If the ego is unreal, what death are you talking about? We

> superimpose the unreal on the real. What really exists is Brahman.

> There is no discovery, only uncovering.

>

> WIE: What are the signs of true ego transcendence?

>

> MA: One who has gone beyond the ego becomes an offering to the world,

> like an incense stick that burns itself out while bestowing its

> fragrance to others. For such a person there is no sense of otherness.

> It is difficult to say what a clear sign would be. People pretend or

> they imitate this and that quality—but for a real master, one who

> truly doesn't identify with the ego, his or her entire being, and every

> action, is a pure expression of divine love and self-sacrifice. Divine

> love and self-sacrifice cannot be imitated.

>

> WIE: Is it possible for a master to completely annihilate their ego?

>

> MA: A mahatma [great soul] is one who disidentifies with the ego; they

> see everything as an extension of the Self. Due to our ignorance, we

> identify with the ego, with that which is not real, but a mahatma is not

> identified at all with the ego, with that which is unreal.

>

> WIE: How does the guru help to annihilate the ego of the disciple?

>

> MA: A true master creates the situations that will allow the seeker to

> come out of his or her dream. The disciple wants to continue to sleep

> and to dream, but the master wants to awaken him or her. The whole

> effort of the master is to somehow bring the disciple back to the

> reality of his or her true existence.

>

> WIE: It is said that the ego will go to any length to maintain its grip

> on the individual, even masquerading as our own spiritual longing. What

> are the most important qualities for success in the fight against the

> endless tricks of the ego?

>

> MA: Performing one's own dharma with utmost shraddha. Shraddha is

> very important at the beginning stage on the spiritual path; it is

> absolutely essential.

>

> WIE: What is shraddha? Is it faith in the possibility of transcending

> the ego in this life?

>

> MA: Shraddha is more than just faith. It is trust and love. Both

> trust and love are necessary to transcend the ego—trust in the

> existence of a higher reality, love for that reality and an intense

> longing to realize it.

>

> WIE: What is the best way to cultivate discrimination in the face of

> all the temptations of the ego?

>

> MA: Just as a little boy grows out of his teddy bear and other toys, a

> true seeker gains the power to discriminate between the eternal and

> noneternal as his understanding grows and as he advances along the path.

> The power of discrimination dawns within us as we gain proper

> understanding and as we mature. As we learn how to evaluate life's

> experiences in the proper manner, we automatically begin to use our

> discriminative intelligence. It is an inner blossoming that takes

> place—like a bud opening up. It is part of a slow but steady

> process.

>

> There is a divine message hidden behind every experience life brings

> you—both the positive and negative experiences. Just penetrate

> beneath the surface and you will receive the message. Nothing comes from

> outside; everything is within you. The whole universe is within you.

>

> There will be many temptations and challenges along the way. Only an

> experienced person can help you. The way to moksha is very subtle,

> and it is easy for a spiritual aspirant to become deluded.

>

> WIE: What is the role of the spiritual master in guiding the seeker

> on the path to moksha or liberation?

>

> MA: If you want to learn how to drive, you need to be taught by an

> experienced driver. A child needs to be taught how to tie his shoelaces.

> And how can you learn mathematics without a teacher? Even a pickpocket

> needs a teacher to teach him the art of stealing. If teachers are

> indispensable in ordinary life, wouldn't we need a teacher even more on

> the spiritual path, which is so extremely subtle?

>

> Though that subtle knowledge is our true nature, we have been identified

> with the world of names and forms for so long, thinking them to be real.

> We now need to cease that identification. But in reality, there is

> nothing to teach. A master simply helps you to complete the journey.

>

> If you want to go to a distant place, you may want to buy a map. But no

> matter how well you study the map, if you are heading toward a totally

> strange land, an unknown place, you won't know anything about that place

> until you actually arrive. Nor will the map tell you much about the

> journey itself, about the ups and downs of the road and the possible

> dangers on the way. It is therefore better to receive guidance from

> someone who has completed the journey, someone who knows the way from

> his or her own experience.

>

> On the spiritual journey, we have to really listen to and then

> contemplate what the master says. We have to be humble in order to

> receive. When we really listen and then sincerely contemplate, we will

> assimilate the teachings properly.

>

> WIE: Why is submission to a guru said to be so important in helping

> the disciple transcend the ego?

>

> MA: The seat of the ego is the mind. Any other obstacle can be removed

> by using the mind except the ego, because the ego is subtler than the

> mind. It is only through obedience to the one who is established in that

> supreme experience that one can conquer the ego.

>

> WIE: You didn't have an external guru, yet you completely transcended

> your ego. It seems you depended on the formless as your guru to take you

> all the way.

>

> MA: Yes, you could say that. But Amma considered the whole of

> creation to be her guru.

>

> WIE: Is perfect obedience to the guru ultimately the same as ego

> death?

>

> MA: Yes. That is why the satguru [realized spiritual master] is

> depicted in the Kathopanishad as Yama, the lord of death. The death of

> the disciple's ego can take place only with the help of a satguru.

>

> Obedience isn't something that can be forced on the disciple. The

> disciple is tremendously inspired by the master, who is an embodiment of

> humility. Obedience and humility simply happen in a true master's

> presence.

>

> WIE: It takes rare courage to face ego death.

>

> MA: Yes, very few can do it. If you have the courage and determination

> to knock at the door of death, you will find that there is no death. For

> even death, or the death of the ego, is an illusion.

>

> WIE: There have been some very powerful spiritual teachers who seem to

> have been driven by the impure motives of the ego. Do you think that

> spiritual experiences could at times empower the ego rather than destroy

> it?

>

> MA: Amma doesn't agree that those teachers to whom you are referring are

> realized. A Self-realized master is completely independent. Such beings

> don't have to depend on anything external for their happiness because

> they are full of bliss, which they derive from within their own Atman.

> Amma would say that everyone forms part of a crowd, except the realized

> masters. In fact, except for those rare souls, there are no individuals.

> Only one who is realized is uniquely individual and totally independent

> of the crowd. Only such a soul is alone in the world of bliss.

>

> True spiritual masters have to set an example through their actions and

> their lives. Those who abuse their position and power, taking advantage

> of others, obviously do not derive all their happiness and contentment

> from within themselves, and so they cannot be realized masters. Why

> would a realized master crave adulation or power? Those who do are still

> under the grip of the ego. They may claim to be realized, but they are

> not. A perfect master doesn't claim anything. He simply is—he is

> presence.

>

> Until the moment before realization takes place, a person is not safe

> from the temptations of his or her desires.

>

> WIE: So would you say that people like this have become more proud as a

> result of having had spiritual experiences? Can spiritual experiences at

> times strengthen the ego in a negative way?

>

> MA: The people to whom this happens are deluded, and they confuse others

> as well. They will actually push others into delusion. Some people gain

> a glimpse of something, or have a spiritual experience, and then think

> they have attained moksha. Only someone who is not realized will think,

> " I am spiritual, I am realized, " and this will create a strong, subtle

> ego. A subtle ego is more dangerous than a gross ego. Even the

> individuals themselves won't understand that the subtle ego is leading

> or motivating them, and this subtle ego will become part of their

> nature. Such people will do anything for name and fame.

>

> Amma also feels that this kind of pride makes people lose their capacity

> to listen. And listening is extremely important on the spiritual path. A

> person who does not listen cannot be humble. And it is only when we are

> truly humble that the already existing pure Consciousness will be

> unfolded within us. Only one who is humbler than the humblest can be

> considered greater than the greatest.

>

> WIE: Since it is possible for spiritual experiences to feed the ego,

> is it necessary to cultivate purity first?

>

> MA: There is no need to get obsessed with purity. Focus on your dharma,

> performing it with the right attitude and with love. Then purity will

> follow.

>

> WIE: What is dharma, in the way you are using it?

>

> MA: Dharma is the right action in the right place at the right time.

>

> WIE: How can one know what one's dharma is?

>

> MA: By loving life with the right attitude and having the right

> understanding, we will know what the right thing to do is. And then, if

> we perform our dharma, purity will come.

>

> WIE: How do you cultivate that kind of love?

>

> MA: Love isn't something that can be cultivated—it's already within

> us in all its fullness. Life cannot exist without love; they are

> inseparable. Life and love are not two; they are one and the same. A

> little bit of the proper channeling of your energies will awaken the

> love within you.

>

> You need to have a strong intent to reach the goal of liberation; you

> need to be focused on that goal. Then such qualities as love, patience,

> enthusiasm and optimism will spring forth within you. These qualities

> will work to help you attain your goal.

>

> WIE: You are revered by so many as the embodiment of unconditional love,

> and you literally hug everyone who comes to see you. But I have heard

> that you can also be very fierce with your students. How do these two

> very different methods of teaching go together?

>

> MA: For Amma there are not two different methods; Amma has only one

> method, and that is love. That love manifests as patience and

> compassion. However, if a deer comes and eats the tender flower buds in

> your garden, you cannot be gentle with the deer and say softly, " Please

> deer, don't eat the flowers. " You have to shout at it and even wave a

> stick. It is sometimes necessary to show this type of mood in order to

> correct the disciple. Kali is the compassionate mother in her

> disciplining mood. But look into her eyes—there is no anger there.

>

> Amma only disciplines those who have chosen to stay close to her, and

> she only does this when they are ready to be disciplined. A disciple is

> one who is willing to be disciplined. The guru first binds the disciple

> with boundless, unconditional love so that when the disciple eventually

> is disciplined, he or she is aware of the presence of that love in all

> situations.

>

> Amma helps her children to always be aware and alert. Love has many

> aspects. When Amma disciplines her children, she does this with the sole

> purpose of guiding them along the path to help them to fully blossom.

> This blossoming will happen only if a conducive atmosphere is created.

> It can never be forced. A true master does not force his or her

> disciples because pure consciousness cannot force anything. The master

> is like space, like the boundless sky, and space cannot hurt you. Only

> the ego can force and hurt. Amma will patiently continue to create

> opportunities for that inner opening, that blossoming, to take place

> within her children.

>

> The guru-disciple relationship is the highest. The bond of love between

> the guru and shishya [disciple] is so powerful that one may sometimes

> feel there is no guru and no shishya—all sense of separation

> disappears.

>

> WIE: What do you do when the ego takes hold of one of your disciples?

>

> MA: Amma lovingly helps her children to realize the danger of being

> under the grip of the ego, and she shows them how to get out of it.

>

> WIE: Some Western psychotherapists and spiritual teachers believe that

> we must develop strong egos before we seek ego transcendence. They say

> that most of us have weak or wounded egos as a result of the emotional

> and psychological traumas that we have suffered over the course of our

> lives, and they advocate various forms of therapy to help us build up

> our character, ego and sense of individuality. You had quite a difficult

> childhood; you had to bear harsh treatment and even physical abuse, and

> yet you transcended your ego completely. Would you agree with these

> teachers that in the pursuit of enlightenment, we first need to build up

> the ego before we endeavor to transcend it?

>

> MA: Most people are deeply wounded within in some way, and those wounds

> have been caused by the past. Those wounds usually remain unhealed. They

> are wounds not only from this life but from previous lives as well, and

> no doctor or psychologist can heal them. A doctor or psychologist can

> help people to cope with life to a certain extent, in spite of those

> wounds, but they cannot actually heal them. They cannot penetrate deeply

> enough into their own minds to remove their own wounds, let alone

> penetrate deeply enough into the patient's mind. Only a true master, who

> is completely free from any limitations and who is beyond the mind, can

> penetrate into a person's mind and treat all those unhealed wounds with

> his or her infinite energy. Spiritual life, especially under the

> guidance of a satguru, does not weaken the psyche; it strengthens it.

>

> The ultimate cause of all emotional wounds is our separation from the

> Atman, from our true nature. It may be necessary for a person to go to a

> psychologist, and that is fine—but to put spirituality aside in

> order to first strengthen the ego is to perpetuate that sense of

> separation, and it will only lead to further suffering. What is the use

> in thinking, " I will go to the doctor as soon as I feel better " ? To wait

> for either the inner or outer circumstances to be " just right " before we

> embark on the spiritual journey is like standing on the seashore waiting

> for the waves to completely subside before we jump into the ocean. This

> will never happen. Every moment of life is so utterly precious, such a

> rare opportunity. We should not waste it.

>

> , " selena255 "

> <selena@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Sparrow,

> >

> > What you say is right on! Poor teachers take a lot of bashing from

> their own students during the process, LOL! Patience and forgiveness of

> a supernatural kind is what makes the difference between a bogus guru

> and the real deal.

> >

> > Yes, the RFA is excruciating. The ego is challenged in all sorts of

> ways, in all the places where it hurts the most. The pitfalls are

> tailored on each individual in such a way that no stone is left

> unturned, and you have to confront all of your own demons one by one,

> all the time.

> >

> > The most painful part is that your own conscience keeps assessing your

> performance 24/7 and is aware of all your failures. The ultimate

> challenge is that of being able to forgive oneself in the face of such

> glaring flaws, even as you lose the ability to fool yourself into

> self-complacency. Long periods of self-loathing and moral torture are to

> be expected--what they call the dark night of the soul, perhaps.

> >

> > Once the process begins, there is no hiding.

> >

> > Sel

> >

> > ,

> " ordinarysparrow " ordinarysparrow@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste

> > >

> > > dear Chrism

> > >

> > > This is so on target for me personally. . . will not go into it at

> > > length. . .but with one of the teachers from India this is such an

> apt

> > > description of what it can look like. . .

> > >

> > > i do not have words to describe the force and the drive of what this

> > > beloved teacher put me through for about seven years. . .it blew

> every

> > > conceivable frame or imagination of what a teacher was " suppose to

> be

> > > like " . . .the times i called him a brutal b_______ are not

> countable. .

> >

>

June 13, 2009

Thank you all for writing about the ego. These conversations are really very

helpful. It seems the kundalini brings all those hurts and pains to the surface

again. This has been most challenging for me. The unconditional loving others is

one thing, but to get through the pains and hurts is something else. Forgiveness

toward others seems to be easier but even if you have forgived and can

unconditionally love there still can be such intense emotional pain, perhaps

directed at the self. So of course I am assuming this is all ego then. That

illusion of being unworthy,or unloved, hurt or vulnerable. For most of my life I

have been good at repressing but I notice now this is an impossiblility...oh

sometimes I miss those good old days ha - so when emotional pain rears its

beautiful head and there is no hiding - how do you observe when you are

emotional? Does that make sense? I can have that knowing that its a process and

say that to myself and have trust that eventually I will get through this stage

and when I'm in deep mediation I can feel that sense of peace and then I'm

thinking what was all the fuss about...but then in daily life when you are

feeling that how do you observe and feel at the same time? It seems when I can

get to observing this pain then I'm not feeling it really and wonder if I am

just repressing because it keeps coming back. I am the queen of repression (:

And of course when this emotion is there even though it is a different

circumstance it is still the same feelings of childhood or teenage years. Its

funny (okay not) when you think you must finally be through all your stuff ...

there are more surprises waiting! Sometimes I can start laughing so hard and so

long at myself and then I feel better! And I think look at that, you just

released all this stuff...and then I feel so free its great!And I think yes! I'm

done with all the emotional stuff! Yeah (: But then it won't be long and bam

I'm all sad again and emotional. I swear one can think they are going crazy

through all this! And honestly if I didn't know about this happening to others I

would have probably called the men in the white coats by now...

so thank all of you that tell your stories it is more than helpful and is much

appreciated. I'll just keep my surfboard here handy as I ride those waves ...

and btw they are quite high during the full moon for me, wondering if anyone

else here notices this?

June 13, 2009

Hey, I thought I was the queen of repression lol. I share a very similar story

of growing up with lots of hurts and learned how to repress those feelings (most

of the time) and than out of the blue something presses my button or something

unknown surfaces and gosh, I wonder if I can get through it, when will it pass.

Unfortunately, I have turned to food for my source of comfort. It works for a

while, but then I have the weight issue to deal with. I am my biggest enemy. I

too am finding it harder to forgive myself than to forgive others. I find

comfort in meditation, but like you in the day to day life I find it helpful to

say to myself, ok...let me step back and look at what I am feeling or why I am

reacting the way that I am. I pretend to be a third party, stepping out of

myself, pausing and reflecting. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But

at least I am to the point of trying to stop it when I notice it in myself. I am

not sure if that is repression, because I am trying to understand it head on.

Emotional eating is repression. I was an emotional wreck a couple days ago.

Crying and feeling terribly depressed all day. Thank God/Goddess it has mostly

passed.

And, like you, I am glad to be able to share stories with others who understand

what I am going through, even if at times I don't quite understand. Does that

make sense? lol

I really feel the energy of the full moon. It affects my sleep for sure.

Blessings to you! - Christine

-- In , " flowerpowers7777 "

<flowerpowers7777 wrote:

>

> Thank you all for writing about the ego. These conversations are really very