Mental blockages

[Guest guest]

In many societies it is often a necessity that we learn to use our mental

prowess in order to succeed and survive. We learn how to " figure things out " and

in so doing we are rewarded with the " right answer " or " the prize " or many other

forms of approval.

 

Kundalini is not to be " figured out. " With very little reference all that can be

done is to read or hear or observe what others have gone through with regards to

it and from there some guesses can be made. But they are only guesses.

 

Kundalini is often to be experienced through the meditation of surrender. We

surrender our need to control and " figure it out. " This is why so much phenomena

and clear communication will come in the dream state when our mental ego minds

are released from the controls of life as is lived in the day to day world.

 

So I invite and encourage you to stop figuring. Stop " trying " to understand how

it works or why it works or when it works. Just surrender your mental controls

and " allow " it to work!

 

This will clear the blockage of the intellectual aspects of " the ego controls "

that can thwart the reception and activation of the Kundalini no matter how

prepared the individual feels they are.

 

Give up having mental control. Surrender your will to the divine Kundalini. -

blessings and love to all! - chrism

[Guest guest]

Well, some part of me unbeknownst to me must be paying attention and imbibing

the wondrous Shaktipat that is radiating for us. I sat down at the

computer intent upon writing about clarity and lo and behold, it's already been

done - far better than I could!

 

But, garrulous as I am today, here are my added two cents.

 

The mind is very mechanical, kind of like a machine, or a really complex

computer program. It seeks understanding, logic, and clarity. Neat little

packages. So sorry, the Universe couldn't care less and refuses to comply.

 

Somewhere in Castaneda's books, Don Juan says that clarity is the last enemy of

a man of knowledge. So drop the mind's need to understand and have clarity.

Rather, let the mind (the mental body - another body housing your awareness,

just like the physical, astral, emotional, etc.) be as it will, simply do not

identify your " self " with it.

 

Dwell not in the mind. Embrace the Universe in all its mysteriousness.

 

Love and thanks, and wishing everyone a Merry Christmas,

 

David

[Guest guest]

Dear David,

 

I am wondering if I understand correctly what  Don Juan means by " clarity is

the last enemy of a man of knowledge "    Does he mean that that the " need and

preoccupation " (in striving for clarity) is the enemy?  It is not so much

clarity itself that is the enemy but man's demanding and insistance in achieving

it, that is the enemy? 

In my own experience when clarity comes unbidden, it shines like the moon from

behind  parting clouds.  It is a friendly blessing indeed.

Can you clarify...lol.... if I am  off the mark or not with what Don Juan

means?  thanks david

Love Julia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

djgottlieb <dgottlieb

 

Thu, December 24, 2009 2:02:38 PM

Re: Mental blockages

 

 

 

Somewhere in Castaneda's books, Don Juan says that clarity is the last enemy of

a man of knowledge. So drop the mind's need to understand and have clarity.

Rather, let the mind (the mental body - another body housing your awareness,

just like the physical, astral, emotional, etc.) be as it will, simply do not

identify your " self " with it.

 

Dwell not in the mind. Embrace the Universe in all its mysteriousness.

 

Love and thanks, and wishing everyone a Merry Christmas,

 

David

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Julia,

 

That's my interpretation of it too - we need to drop our striving for it. And I

think he was referring to mental clarity as in intellectual understanding,

trying to fit everything into nice, neat intellectual constructs. He was

addressing his student Castaneda, who was trained as a cultural anthropologist

and had an obsessive penchant for categorizing things, organizing facts and

knowledge into systems that seemed internally cohesive to his mind. I don't

think Don Juan was referring to the other kind of clarity we sometimes

experiences as light, bliss, stillness, just being, sudden illumination,

insight, or wordless knowing. I like that one. And as you say, it usually

comes unbidden...

 

 

Love,

 

David

 

 

, Julia Ahern <jajahern

wrote:

>

> Dear David,

>

> I am wondering if I understand correctly what  Don Juan means by " clarity

is the last enemy of a man of knowledge "    Does he mean that that the " need

and preoccupation " (in striving for clarity) is the enemy?  It is not so much

clarity itself that is the enemy but man's demanding and insistance in achieving

it, that is the enemy? 

> In my own experience when clarity comes unbidden, it shines like the moon from

behind  parting clouds.  It is a friendly blessing indeed.

> Can you clarify...lol.... if I am  off the mark or not with what Don Juan

means?  thanks david

> Love Julia

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> djgottlieb <dgottlieb

>

> Thu, December 24, 2009 2:02:38 PM

> Re: Mental blockages

>

>

>

> Somewhere in Castaneda's books, Don Juan says that clarity is the last enemy

of a man of knowledge. So drop the mind's need to understand and have clarity.

Rather, let the mind (the mental body - another body housing your awareness,

just like the physical, astral, emotional, etc.) be as it will, simply do not

identify your " self " with it.

>

> Dwell not in the mind. Embrace the Universe in all its mysteriousness.

>

> Love and thanks, and wishing everyone a Merry Christmas,

>

> David

>

 

[Guest guest]

I'm confused.

 

 

Just kidding! No, I really am confused, but just joking!

 

Great posts on clarity. I'm working on not working on it! LOL!

 

Deb

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear david,

 

Thanks for the context. I have to laugh at myself sometimes... I have

experienced some clarity recently and the illummination of that is still with me

so it is like I had forgotten that there are other types of clarity!!!! What

you said makes sense...thank you, as always.

Love Julia.

 

 

, " djgottlieb "

<dgottlieb wrote:

>

> Julia,

>

> That's my interpretation of it too - we need to drop our striving for it. And

I think he was referring to mental clarity as in intellectual understanding,

trying to fit everything into nice, neat intellectual constructs. He was

addressing his student Castaneda,

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dear for your infinite wisdom and guidance.

 

Merry Christmas.

 

, " "

<> wrote:

>

> In many societies it is often a necessity that we learn to use our mental

prowess in order to succeed and survive. We learn how to " figure things out " and

in so doing we are rewarded with the " right answer " or " the prize " or many other

forms of approval.

>

> Kundalini is not to be " figured out. " With very little reference all that can

be done is to read or hear or observe what others have gone through with regards

to it and from there some guesses can be made. But they are only guesses.

>

> Kundalini is often to be experienced through the meditation of surrender. We

surrender our need to control and " figure it out. " This is why so much phenomena

and clear communication will come in the dream state when our mental ego minds

are released from the controls of life as is lived in the day to day world.

>

> So I invite and encourage you to stop figuring. Stop " trying " to understand

how it works or why it works or when it works. Just surrender your mental

controls and " allow " it to work!

>

> This will clear the blockage of the intellectual aspects of " the ego controls "

that can thwart the reception and activation of the Kundalini no matter how

prepared the individual feels they are.

>

> Give up having mental control. Surrender your will to the divine Kundalini. -

blessings and love to all! - chrism

>

[Guest guest]

@@I have seen people go off the deep end when they abandoned reason to embrace

their nascent psychic awareness. This is apt to happen when one confuses

surrendering to Kundalini (which is to say, to the inner Spirit) with

relinquishing critical thought. Surrendering to an experience is allowing it to

unfold completely. This is an agreement within ourselves to stop fighting

against the current; it is not a form of mental collapse that turns us into

vegetables. The more access we have to expanded levels of consciousness, the

more crucial it becomes to balance trust and open-minded acceptance with

vigilant self-honesty and responsible rationality. Keep your heart open but

question everything.@@

 

- El Collie

" Branded by the Spirit "

http://www.elcollie.com/st/chap13.html

 

----------------------

 

 

 

 

 

--- " "

<> wrote:

>

> In many societies it is often a necessity that we learn to use our mental

prowess in order to succeed and survive. We learn how to " figure things out " and

in so doing we are rewarded with the " right answer " or " the prize " or many other

forms of approval.

>

> Kundalini is not to be " figured out. " With very little reference all that can

be done is to read or hear or observe what others have gone through with regards

to it and from there some guesses can be made. But they are only guesses.

>

> Kundalini is often to be experienced through the meditation of surrender. We

surrender our need to control and " figure it out. " This is why so much phenomena

and clear communication will come in the dream state when our mental ego minds

are released from the controls of life as is lived in the day to day world.

>

> So I invite and encourage you to stop figuring. Stop " trying " to understand

how it works or why it works or when it works. Just surrender your mental

controls and " allow " it to work!

>

> This will clear the blockage of the intellectual aspects of " the ego controls "

that can thwart the reception and activation of the Kundalini no matter how

prepared the individual feels they are.

>

> Give up having mental control. Surrender your will to the divine Kundalini. -

blessings and love to all! - chrism

>

[Guest guest]

I love El Collie and her service to others but she made more pain for herself

by her " question everything " attitude. No one is suggesting that we turn into

vegetables. By questioning everything where do we trust anything?

 

If the answers need to fit a narrow range or experience for " proof " or to

qualify as " reason " where to we fit those phenomena that do not conform to that

narrow range of experience?

 

We go off the deep end when we rely on a model of reason and acceptable critical

thought that cannot expand into the experiences that we are having with the

Kundalini. Real experiences that are not explained within the current models of

logic and " rational " experience. When we come up against this wall of

incomprehension and try to surmount it with the tools of the limited mental mind

alone we become trapped by the limitations of a mental construct that does not

or currently cannot find a reason or explanation for what is happening.

 

That's when we go " off the deep end. "

 

Mental addiction is just as damaging as any other kind of addiction were we

sacrifice our multiple body of awareness to a singular awareness due to

familiarity or fear the unknown or the sensation it brings us or that it

conforms to current modes of what is understood as acceptable " critical "

thought.

 

I invite you to develop trust. Trust in the " unexplainable experience " and trust

in that which cannot be figured out. Trust in the miraculous.

 

Critical thought can be a smokescreen for the inability to accept that which

doesnt fit into the critical thought " box " of phenomena. A distrust of mystery.

A fear bourne of ignorance. Critical thought is often defined more by social

dogma rather than scientific reality which is also often governed by social

convenience.

 

Without trust we have no foundation for faith. Without faith we endlessly

founder in the unfathomable depths of that which cannot be explained to the

" current model " of critical thought rationality. This can impede the actual

growth of " critical thought " for a society by not allowing it to expand beyond

the current social framework of acceptance.

 

Surrender over mentalizing. Embrace a balanced multiplicity of ways rather than

over reliance on any one or two ways. Doesnt mean you never use the two ways

merely that a person expands into other ways as well.

 

Try " Critically Trusting " or " Critically Loving " or " Critically Surrendering. "

See what that does for the expansion of the Critical Thought box. - lol and many

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " droxine5 " <Droxine1

wrote:

>

> @@I have seen people go off the deep end when they abandoned reason to embrace

their nascent psychic awareness.

[Guest guest]

I thought this quote was a nice compliment to the discussion of how to mentate

in regard to non-ordinary and supernormal operation. I think you are

mischaracterising Collie's thoughts on using the mind and on trust, pushing them

to one extreme and making them appear unbalanced; perhaps a fresh reading of her

works is in order.

 

There are many aspects and layers of Truth, and sometimes, especially in

spiritual areas, the truth appears paradoxical. I see much truth in your view

and in the ideas of the Collie quote and don't see them in conflict, as

apparently you do.

 

I understand the caution of not reducing the spiritual experience to a purely

mental exercise in which a square peg will not be made to fit into a round hole,

as it were, but most of this discussion has not been limited to this obvious

premise but has concerned the subtleties extending from it.

 

From the " insanity " of my higher/multidimensional experiences during my

awakening period, I discovered an order to the universe - an order totally

non-compliant with any I'd associated with reality, but a self-supporting order

nonetheless.

 

Without my mental work and efforts to make the needed connections between my

various experiences and repressed memories that were surfacing, I would not have

been able to touch or embrace this " new order. " I would simply have gone mad or

numb - retreated back into a world of hiding - permanently.

 

I think Collie comes from a similar background. A good, solid logical mind can

be a life saver and sanity preserver when it is committed, unflinchingly to the

discovery of Truth at whatever cost to the accepted paradigm of reality. It is

a great gift and tool for unearthing this underlying reality.

 

I don't know if you are speaking directly to me when you say " I invite you to

develop trust " or " try " Critically Trusting " or " Critically Loving " or

" Critically Surrendering, " but as I've said, trust is something I rely on like

breathing. (And you know from reading me these years that I put Love first

above all.)

 

I've noticed that you have rejected quite a few of the things I say, and perhaps

this is one of them. I think there is a danger in deciding yourself with such

certainty what a person's process is and isn't and what is best for them from a

standpoint that is not omniscient, as in deriding Collie's process.

 

We cannot know the needs of another or what goes into the filling of those needs

through planning and agency on the various levels or how best a person's

personal path can be walked. I think there is a danger to having a set formula

and prescription for all and then judging from a limited perspective with a set

of predetermined benchmarks and outcomes, without allowance for this margin of

error or not knowing. There is the opportunity for trust here, too.

 

As for using the mind, it is not something we can stop or should try to, IMO.

We use it in discerning light from dark, shunning, exalting, focussing,

choosing, surrendering, trusting. It is a matter, as with everything, of *how*

this faculty, this part of us, is used.

 

This, too, is a gift from God and some of my most blissful, elevated moments

have been in trying to touch with some small, grasping understanding, the

mysteries presented to me here, where my mind and ego and all my other " lower

parts " reside.

 

There is a reason for this interaction, too, and in our grasping to touch the

divine from " where we live " here, a sacred connection is fashioned, one I feel

in my bones is revered on high. It is an opportunity to tame and transform, to

use what is God-given in the way it was intended.

 

x,

Droxine

[Guest guest]

Re: Mental blockages - Droxine

 

" I think there is a danger in deciding yourself with such certainty what a

person's process is and isn't and what is best for them from a standpoint that

is not omniscient, as in deriding Collie's process. "

 

Deriding El Collies process? I will not even grace that particular pettiness

with a response Droxine.

 

As to the danger that you breathe into this conversation regarding the ability

of the Kundalini expressing through me to see into a persons process such as

your's or anyone's. What makes you think I am deciding anything? You known so

very little of what is done and yet you stand back and inject fear into a matrix

you no nothing about. You make accusations and projections of your own state of

being and try to attach that to other people.

 

I wasnt responding so much to El Collie's thoughts about this though her life

and its outcomes can be supportive of what I wrote. I was responding to you

Droxine. I see it as a continuation of our previous discussion. Kind of your

way of using her words to support your point of view.

 

I didnt make that clear obviously so my apologies about that.

 

Not so much of what El says do I see conflicted as she does state to keep the

heart open. It is the questioning of everything which has an absolute quality to

it. I would suggest that you will indeed question some things and leave

somethings that do not have a reference in the current society as an opportunity

for trusting the divine.

 

Such as the dismemberment process. Where the person experiences body parts being

pulled off and taken away with no pain and sincere assurances that they will be

put back in better shape than before.

 

Or the Kriya phenomena that places people into very odd positions without regard

for their will or choice. The list goes on and on with the Kundalini.

 

Mental based reference reliability on these experiences can push one into areas

that go beyond what the current society in its Critical Thinking on these

subjects is able to explain. And from there can certain challenges be

experienced.

 

As for knowing about another's situation.

 

You state that:

" I think there is a danger to having a set formula and prescription for all and

then judging from a limited perspective with a set of predetermined benchmarks

and outcomes, without allowance for this margin of error or not knowing. "

 

I have as yet to find a " set formula " as Kundalini tends to treat each person

individually. Using the safeties as a fulcrum and as a set formula for the

general population is quite alright to me and to the Shakti expressing within me

if it is these protocols you are referring to as a set formula.

 

If it is to " my take " on your position within your personal situation well you

asked me what I thought! - lol! And I wrote those thoughts to you. And yes those

thoughts did come from the same area of expression -The Kundalini- that is

responsible for any of those types of interactions I have with others on this

and other groups.

 

And I am inclined to agree with you to the degree that " We the Ego " do not know

but " We the Kundalini " can and do know and can make those responsible

recommendations for another person. Whether this is or not acceptable will be

up to that person.

 

Yes I am making no judgment against the mind or the ego. If a persons wishes to

touch with " some small grasping of the mental and ego conscious understanding "

well then this is good for them and is their choice.

 

I suggest that surrender and trust and love are far greater tools (imho) for

interactions in these areas but everyone is entitled to do as they see fit.

 

>> " There is a reason for this interaction, too, and in our grasping to touch the

divine from " where we live " here, a sacred connection is fashioned, one I feel

in my bones is revered on high. It is an opportunity to tame and transform, to

use what is God-given in the way it was intended. "

 

To tame and transform.

To use what is God-given.

 

For you dear Droxine perhaps this is the way it is intended to be. For others

there are different choices. -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " droxine5 " <Droxine1

wrote:

>

> I thought this quote was a nice compliment to the discussion of how to mentate

in regard to non-ordinary and supernormal operation. I think you are

mischaracterising Collie's thoughts on using the mind and on trust, pushing them

to one extreme and making them appear unbalanced; perhaps a fresh reading of her

works is in order.

>

> There are many aspects and layers of Truth, and sometimes, especially in

spiritual areas, the truth appears paradoxical. I see much truth in your view

and in the ideas of the Collie quote and don't see them in conflict, as

apparently you do.

>

> I understand the caution of not reducing the spiritual experience to a purely

mental exercise in which a square peg will not be made to fit into a round hole,

as it were, but most of this discussion has not been limited to this obvious

premise but has concerned the subtleties extending from it.

>

> From the " insanity " of my higher/multidimensional experiences during my

awakening period, I discovered an order to the universe - an order totally

non-compliant with any I'd associated with reality, but a self-supporting order

nonetheless.

>

> Without my mental work and efforts to make the needed connections between my

various experiences and repressed memories that were surfacing, I would not have

been able to touch or embrace this " new order. " I would simply have gone mad or

numb - retreated back into a world of hiding - permanently.

>

> I think Collie comes from a similar background. A good, solid logical mind

can be a life saver and sanity preserver when it is committed, unflinchingly to

the discovery of Truth at whatever cost to the accepted paradigm of reality. It

is a great gift and tool for unearthing this underlying reality.

>

> I don't know if you are speaking directly to me when you say " I invite you to

develop trust " or " try " Critically Trusting " or " Critically Loving " or

" Critically Surrendering, " but as I've said, trust is something I rely on like

breathing. (And you know from reading me these years that I put Love first

above all.)

>

> I've noticed that you have rejected quite a few of the things I say, and

perhaps this is one of them. I think there is a danger in deciding yourself

with such certainty what a person's process is and isn't and what is best for

them from a standpoint that is not omniscient, as in deriding Collie's process.

>

> We cannot know the needs of another or what goes into the filling of those

needs through planning and agency on the various levels or how best a person's

personal path can be walked. I think there is a danger to having a set formula

and prescription for all and then judging from a limited perspective with a set

of predetermined benchmarks and outcomes, without allowance for this margin of

error or not knowing. There is the opportunity for trust here, too.

>

> As for using the mind, it is not something we can stop or should try to, IMO.

We use it in discerning light from dark, shunning, exalting, focussing,

choosing, surrendering, trusting. It is a matter, as with everything, of *how*

this faculty, this part of us, is used.

>

> This, too, is a gift from God and some of my most blissful, elevated moments

have been in trying to touch with some small, grasping understanding, the

mysteries presented to me here, where my mind and ego and all my other " lower

parts " reside.

>

> There is a reason for this interaction, too, and in our grasping to touch the

divine from " where we live " here, a sacred connection is fashioned, one I feel

in my bones is revered on high. It is an opportunity to tame and transform, to

use what is God-given in the way it was intended.

>

> x,

> Droxine

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Droxine,

Some general thoughts arose in response to your post.

Spiritual experiences cannot be gained or controlled by mental processes. They

are assimilated by the mind though, and this is where the fear factor and denial

come in.

Come to the Divine as a child.

It is a situation of seeing and feeling and accumulating the knowledge that

accompanies what has been seen and felt.

It is a question of trusting oneself.

Rather than focus on using the mind, focus on the opening of the heart.

Love, Sandra

 

 

, " droxine5 " <Droxine1

wrote:

>

> I thought this quote was a nice compliment to the discussion of how to mentate

in regard to non-ordinary and supernormal operation. I think you are

mischaracterising Collie's thoughts on using the mind and on trust, pushing them

to one extreme and making them appear unbalanced; perhaps a fresh reading of her

works is in order.

>

> There are many aspects and layers of Truth, and sometimes, especially in

spiritual areas, the truth appears paradoxical. I see much truth in your view

and in the ideas of the Collie quote and don't see them in conflict, as

apparently you do.

>

> I understand the caution of not reducing the spiritual experience to a purely

mental exercise in which a square peg will not be made to fit into a round hole,

as it were, but most of this discussion has not been limited to this obvious

premise but has concerned the subtleties extending from it.

>

> From the " insanity " of my higher/multidimensional experiences during my

awakening period, I discovered an order to the universe - an order totally

non-compliant with any I'd associated with reality, but a self-supporting order

nonetheless.

>

> Without my mental work and efforts to make the needed connections between my

various experiences and repressed memories that were surfacing, I would not have

been able to touch or embrace this " new order. " I would simply have gone mad or

numb - retreated back into a world of hiding - permanently.

>

> I think Collie comes from a similar background. A good, solid logical mind

can be a life saver and sanity preserver when it is committed, unflinchingly to

the discovery of Truth at whatever cost to the accepted paradigm of reality. It

is a great gift and tool for unearthing this underlying reality.

>

> I don't know if you are speaking directly to me when you say " I invite you to

develop trust " or " try " Critically Trusting " or " Critically Loving " or

" Critically Surrendering, " but as I've said, trust is something I rely on like

breathing. (And you know from reading me these years that I put Love first

above all.)

>

> I've noticed that you have rejected quite a few of the things I say, and

perhaps this is one of them. I think there is a danger in deciding yourself

with such certainty what a person's process is and isn't and what is best for

them from a standpoint that is not omniscient, as in deriding Collie's process.

>

> We cannot know the needs of another or what goes into the filling of those

needs through planning and agency on the various levels or how best a person's

personal path can be walked. I think there is a danger to having a set formula

and prescription for all and then judging from a limited perspective with a set

of predetermined benchmarks and outcomes, without allowance for this margin of

error or not knowing. There is the opportunity for trust here, too.

>

> As for using the mind, it is not something we can stop or should try to, IMO.

We use it in discerning light from dark, shunning, exalting, focussing,

choosing, surrendering, trusting. It is a matter, as with everything, of *how*

this faculty, this part of us, is used.

>

> This, too, is a gift from God and some of my most blissful, elevated moments

have been in trying to touch with some small, grasping understanding, the

mysteries presented to me here, where my mind and ego and all my other " lower

parts " reside.

>

> There is a reason for this interaction, too, and in our grasping to touch the

divine from " where we live " here, a sacred connection is fashioned, one I feel

in my bones is revered on high. It is an opportunity to tame and transform, to

use what is God-given in the way it was intended.

>

> x,

> Droxine

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Droxine and Chrism,

 

thank you both for your posts; I found tremendous value in what you both were

saying and feel both your perspectives hold important pieces of the puzzle for

me.

 

I sometimes feel that the mind gets a bad rap in spiritual circles. In the

Buddhist 8-fold path, Right View (or Right understanding) follows Right

Intention. Having as good an understanding, or as good a mental framework as

possible, provides a useful container in which to grow and situate our

experience. The more critical and well developed the mind, the better we can be

of service.

 

When I read El Collies 'question everything', it reminds me of the Buddha's

'Great Doubt'. If you were to truly doubt everything, you would be enlightened,

which is the central message of the Diamond Sutra.

 

That said, the irony is that it is only with Great Trust that Great Doubt can

occurr, (lol) as the mind can only safely be doubted if there is another safer

ground, transcendent to the mind, which can be stood on.

 

I find in my personal process that I need to go through cycles of doubting

everything, as a way of opening me up to deeper levels of surrender and opening,

and as a way of integrating new understandings.

my doubt is expressed in the form of a heartfelt question " Am I getting this

right? Is my understanding correct? " and trusting that the Way will reveal

itself.

 

love and uncertainty

Bruce

 

 

 

 

, " "

<> wrote:

>

> Re: Mental blockages - Droxine

>

> " I think there is a danger in deciding yourself with such certainty what a

> person's process is and isn't and what is best for them from a standpoint that

> is not omniscient, as in deriding Collie's process. "

>

> Deriding El Collies process? I will not even grace that particular pettiness

> with a response Droxine.

>

> As to the danger that you breathe into this conversation regarding the ability

> of the Kundalini expressing through me to see into a persons process such as

> your's or anyone's. What makes you think I am deciding anything? You known so

> very little of what is done and yet you stand back and inject fear into a

matrix

> you no nothing about. You make accusations and projections of your own state

of

> being and try to attach that to other people.

>

> I wasnt responding so much to El Collie's thoughts about this though her life

> and its outcomes can be supportive of what I wrote. I was responding to you

> Droxine. I see it as a continuation of our previous discussion. Kind of your

> way of using her words to support your point of view.

>

> I didnt make that clear obviously so my apologies about that.

>

> Not so much of what El says do I see conflicted as she does state to keep the

> heart open. It is the questioning of everything which has an absolute quality

to

> it. I would suggest that you will indeed question some things and leave

> somethings that do not have a reference in the current society as an

opportunity

> for trusting the divine.

>

> Such as the dismemberment process. Where the person experiences body parts

being

> pulled off and taken away with no pain and sincere assurances that they will

be

> put back in better shape than before.

>

> Or the Kriya phenomena that places people into very odd positions without

regard

> for their will or choice. The list goes on and on with the Kundalini.

>

> Mental based reference reliability on these experiences can push one into

areas

> that go beyond what the current society in its Critical Thinking on these

> subjects is able to explain. And from there can certain challenges be

> experienced.

>

> As for knowing about another's situation.

>

> You state that:

> " I think there is a danger to having a set formula and prescription for all

and

> then judging from a limited perspective with a set of predetermined benchmarks

> and outcomes, without allowance for this margin of error or not knowing. "

>

> I have as yet to find a " set formula " as Kundalini tends to treat each person

> individually. Using the safeties as a fulcrum and as a set formula for the

> general population is quite alright to me and to the Shakti expressing within

me

> if it is these protocols you are referring to as a set formula.

>

> If it is to " my take " on your position within your personal situation well you

> asked me what I thought! - lol! And I wrote those thoughts to you. And yes

those

> thoughts did come from the same area of expression -The Kundalini- that is

> responsible for any of those types of interactions I have with others on this

> and other groups.

>

> And I am inclined to agree with you to the degree that " We the Ego " do not

know

> but " We the Kundalini " can and do know and can make those responsible

> recommendations for another person. Whether this is or not acceptable will be

> up to that person.

>

> Yes I am making no judgment against the mind or the ego. If a persons wishes

to

> touch with " some small grasping of the mental and ego conscious understanding "

> well then this is good for them and is their choice.

>

> I suggest that surrender and trust and love are far greater tools (imho) for

> interactions in these areas but everyone is entitled to do as they see fit.

>

> >> " There is a reason for this interaction, too, and in our grasping to touch

the

> divine from " where we live " here, a sacred connection is fashioned, one I feel

> in my bones is revered on high. It is an opportunity to tame and transform, to

> use what is God-given in the way it was intended. "

>

> To tame and transform.

> To use what is God-given.

>

> For you dear Droxine perhaps this is the way it is intended to be. For others

> there are different choices. -

>

, " droxine5 " <Droxine1@>

wrote:

> >

> > I thought this quote was a nice compliment to the discussion of how to

mentate in regard to non-ordinary and supernormal operation. I think you are

mischaracterising Collie's thoughts on using the mind and on trust, pushing them

to one extreme and making them appear unbalanced; perhaps a fresh reading of her

works is in order.

> >

> > There are many aspects and layers of Truth, and sometimes, especially in

spiritual areas, the truth appears paradoxical. I see much truth in your view

and in the ideas of the Collie quote and don't see them in conflict, as

apparently you do.

> >

> > I understand the caution of not reducing the spiritual experience to a

purely mental exercise in which a square peg will not be made to fit into a

round hole, as it were, but most of this discussion has not been limited to this

obvious premise but has concerned the subtleties extending from it.

> >

> > From the " insanity " of my higher/multidimensional experiences during my

awakening period, I discovered an order to the universe - an order totally

non-compliant with any I'd associated with reality, but a self-supporting order

nonetheless.

> >

> > Without my mental work and efforts to make the needed connections between my

various experiences and repressed memories that were surfacing, I would not have

been able to touch or embrace this " new order. " I would simply have gone mad or

numb - retreated back into a world of hiding - permanently.

> >

> > I think Collie comes from a similar background. A good, solid logical mind

can be a life saver and sanity preserver when it is committed, unflinchingly to

the discovery of Truth at whatever cost to the accepted paradigm of reality. It

is a great gift and tool for unearthing this underlying reality.

> >

> > I don't know if you are speaking directly to me when you say " I invite you

to develop trust " or " try " Critically Trusting " or " Critically Loving " or

" Critically Surrendering, " but as I've said, trust is something I rely on like

breathing. (And you know from reading me these years that I put Love first

above all.)

> >

> > I've noticed that you have rejected quite a few of the things I say, and

perhaps this is one of them. I think there is a danger in deciding yourself

with such certainty what a person's process is and isn't and what is best for

them from a standpoint that is not omniscient, as in deriding Collie's process.

> >

> > We cannot know the needs of another or what goes into the filling of those

needs through planning and agency on the various levels or how best a person's

personal path can be walked. I think there is a danger to having a set formula

and prescription for all and then judging from a limited perspective with a set

of predetermined benchmarks and outcomes, without allowance for this margin of

error or not knowing. There is the opportunity for trust here, too.

> >

> > As for using the mind, it is not something we can stop or should try to,

IMO. We use it in discerning light from dark, shunning, exalting, focussing,

choosing, surrendering, trusting. It is a matter, as with everything, of *how*

this faculty, this part of us, is used.

> >

> > This, too, is a gift from God and some of my most blissful, elevated moments

have been in trying to touch with some small, grasping understanding, the

mysteries presented to me here, where my mind and ego and all my other " lower

parts " reside.

> >

> > There is a reason for this interaction, too, and in our grasping to touch

the divine from " where we live " here, a sacred connection is fashioned, one I

feel in my bones is revered on high. It is an opportunity to tame and

transform, to use what is God-given in the way it was intended.

> >

> > x,

> > Droxine

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I do not suggest that we are mindless in any way. Mind IS important. Its just

not the only tool in the toolkit. -