Injuctions Of Vedic Literatures

July 5, 2003

Rejected By BTG Dear Nagaraja Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! In Visakha mataji's reply to Sita mataji's letter, published in the Sept-Oct edition of the BackTo Godhead magazine, she was trying to make the point that Srila Prabhupada wanted women to become TPs and GBCs. Visakha mataji's letter is written in obvious support of the feminist ideas of the Western karmi world. But can she explain why Srila Prabhupada never practically did it? Were there no qualified ladies available back in those days? If there were, why did Srila Prabhupada not appoint them in positions of management?

May I suggest that the answer lies in the fact that the Vedic system does not propagate women in such positions, not out of any chauvinism or prejudice, but just because its not prescribed in sastra, and its just not the social etiquette. A woman who would come into the company of men and brazenly speak out was considered extremely low class, and nobody would take her seriously. No respectable woman would so. The Padma Purana forbids one to stay in a place ruled by a woman, where there is no river, doctor etc. (I am unable to find the exact quote). And in the Mahabharata when the Pandavas went out on their conquests, the only place where woman was ruling was in some mleccha area. Even if the king died, the ministers would rule the kingdom and the queen would only get involved in a few matters. She would never rule.

The trouble lies chiefly in the attitude and the mentality one has been trained with in his/her childhood. Most ISKCON devotees have been brought up in Western backgrounds, the antithesis of Vedic culture. And as Krsna says it is difficult to give up one's nature (that has been instilled in a person right from a very tender age when perception of the world and things around us truly begin).

By dint of fate I hail from an othordox brahmana family of the Sri Vaishnava sampradaya. Here in India one can still see thousands of families practising Vedic culture though they are an integral part of modern society. I have not only heard but personally witnessed and experienced the strict practice of Vedic culture in the Sri as well as the Madhva sampradaya as I spent a year in their HQ, Udupi.

Not only the Sri sampradaya, the Madhva and the Vallabha sampradayas, even the non-vaishnava brahamana families too strictly follow the injuctions of Vedic literatures in regards to the role of women in society. Although I must admit that in big cities those who are taking to modern education are becoming "westernized".

Still, nowhere in these cultures do women, however qualified they may be, try to become the matha (ashrama) leaders, managers or gurus. Rather they understand their position as women and perform their womenly duties – which are connected to the grihasta ashrama and mostly consist of looking after home and family affairs. In fact they would laugh at the very idea of feminism in a spiritual institution. This is unthinkable. The role of women, educated or not, in devotional service can be nicely understood by observing the ancient and yet still extant lifestyle of these followers of the Vedic injuctions.

Trying to practice Krsna consciousness with a Western attitude is something we must give up if we truly want to successful in our attempts to be Krsna conscious. As Srila Bhaktividya Purna Swami (in a lecture at Mayapur that he gives yearly on varnashram dharma that I've attended several times) very aptly summed it up, "When we come to Krsna consciousness we bring our culture with us but Krsna has His own culture which we have to follow to approach him. He will not go out of His way to come to us, rather He has given us clear cut instructions on how approach Him."

Due to our fog-like Western attitude we are unable to see and follow properly Srila Prabhupada's sun-like Vedic instructions. The Vedic culture is the missing element in ISKCON, which will solve almost all the problems we face. Therefore devotees like H.H. Bhakti Vikas Swami, who I am assisting in his writing work, are encouraging western devotees to come and spend time in India. In this regard he recently published a very nice book entitled "Glimpses of Traditional Indian Life" wherein through interviews with ISKCON devotees who were raised in village/traditional atmospheres he highlights the Vedic culture "in action".

We being an International society do have to be practical but not at the cost of ignoring sastra. As Rupa Gosvami quotes from the Skanda purana in the Bhakti- rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.10)

"shruti-smrti-puranadi-

pancaratra-vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir

utpatayaiva kalpate

The purport is that to become a devotee one must follow the principles laid down in shruti and smriti. One must follow the codes of the puranas and the pancaratrika- vidhi. One cannot be a pure devotee without following the shruti and smrti, and the shruti and smriti without devotional service cannot lead one to the perfection of life. SB 7.11.7" If we don't follow accordingly, it is simply a disturbance to society "utpatayaiva kalpate".

Everybody has the right to serve the Lord but Visakha mataji is quoting out of context when she quotes Srila Prabhupada's point about occupation being according to one's nature and not by birth. The point does not include women to act like men. Krsna very clearly says in the verse "It is better to engage in one's own occupation, 'sva- dharma' even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions." Bg 18.47 It is not the sva-dharma of a woman to act in a man's shoes.

She is terribly mistaken in this regard and there is enough sastric proof against it. Srila Prabhupada never used this point to project the idea of women acting in male positions, rather he condemned the Western society in the length and breadth of his teachings for having put women on an equal level with men exposing them to exploitation. For example:

Equal rights is not allowed in the Vedic sastra. (Lecure: Bg. 16.7 Hawaii, February 3, 1975) Ms. Nixon: How do you feel about women's liberation? Srila Prabhupada: So-called equal rights for women means that the men cheat the women. Suppose a woman and a man meet, they become lovers, they have sex, the woman becomes pregnant, and the man goes away. The woman has to take charge of the child and beg alms from the government, or else she kills the child by having an abortion. This is the woman's independence. In India, although a woman may be poverty-stricken, she stays under the care of her husband, and he takes responsibility for her. When she becomes pregnant, she is not forced to kill the child or maintain him by begging. So, which is real independence—to remain under the care of the husband or to be enjoyed by everyone? (From SSR, Chapter 1)

"Prabhupada:They (Krsna's wives) were not ordinary person daughter. But they wanted to become maidservant of Krsna. This is the idea, to become servant and to become maidservant. This is ideal of human civilization. The every woman should try to become maidservant of her husband, and every man should try to become the hundred times servant of Krsna. This is Indian civilization, not that "Husband and wife, we are equal rights." That, in Europe, America, the movement is going on, ‘Equal rights.' That is not Vedic civilization. Vedic civilization is the husband should be a sincere servant of Krsna, and the wife should be a sincere maidservant of the husband.760302SB.MAY"

The feminists claim that men and women are to be on an equal platform as they are all devotees but we see here that Krsna's wives who are on the list of great devotees never wanted to be on an "equal platform". Are the ladies who want equal rights anywhere near the position (as devotees) of Krsna's wives? To a reporter Srila Prabhupada said, "We are Krsna's servant. Actually we are trying to be Krsna's servant. To be servant of Krsna is a very big thing" Even Prahlada maharaja and other great devotees were always praying to become devotees, servants of the Lord. They never claimed, "I am a devotee" etc. This should be always our mentality not that we fight for "equal rights" claiming to be devotees.

Equal rights is claimed by rascal Westerners (Morning Walk, September 25, 1975, Ahmedabad

Equal rights is nonsense. (Morning Walk, May 29, 1974, Rome)

Equal rights is rascaldom philosophy (Morning Walk, May 29, 1974, Rome)

This equal rights philosophy is very appealing (to) fools and rascal. (Morning Walk, May 29, 1974, Rome)

Equal rights is impossible. (CC. Adi 17.44)

How she can be happy? That is not possible.(Lecure: Bg, Ahmedabad, December 8, 1972

Do not artificially try to become equal with men. (Lecure: Bg. 16.7 Hawaii, February 3, 1975)

The equal rights movement is a means by which men cheat the women. (SSR 1)

Equal rights is not Vedic idea. (Lecure: SB 1.8.51 LA, May 13, 1973)

There cannot be equality sir. You are talking nonsense. (Morning Walk, May 29, 1974, Rome)

Where is the benefit of equal rights? (Room Conv. after Press Conference July 9, 1975, Chicago)

That is not Vedic civilization. (Lecure: SB 7.9.24 Mayapur, March 2, 1976)

You cannot make equality. (Morning Walk, May 29, 1974, Rome)

It will be failure. (Arrival Lecture, Philadelphia, July 11, 1975)

It is already failure. Why you are accepting this nonsense philosophy. (Morning Walk May 29, 1974, Rome)

By equal rights women are killing their own child (Letter to: Ed Gilbert, Vrindavan 9 September, 1975) I am not trying for equal rights. (Television Interview, July 9, 1975, Chicago)

Regardless of attempts for equality, unequality there must remain. (Morning Walk, May 29, 1974, Rome)

And these rascals giving equal rights. Just see. And Vedic civilization: "No, they should be protected." The woman should be protected by the father, by the husband, and by elderly sons. No independence. (break) ...she is my sister. She is old, about three years less than me, but she has got sons. She is very happy moving, protected by the sons. Even Kunti, such intelligent woman, such educated and..., she also kept herself under her sons, the Pandavas. (Morning Walk, June 27, 1975, Los Angeles)

If you want equal rights then stop giving birth to a child. (Morning Walk, May 1975, Perth)

Prabhupäda: There cannot be. How a man and woman can be equal? The woman has to give birth, she has to become pregnant. Why the man cannot be pregnant. Why? Why this inequality? To take care of the child, to become pregnant, so much responsibility, the man does not take, especially in this country. He impregnates one girl, and he goes away. And all the responsibility is for the girl. Therefore he (she) wants to get rid of it. He (She) takes the course of abortion. Kill it. This is the psychology. Where is equality? You put her into inconvenient position, and she commits another sin. She is obliged. Where is equality? And you go away. So this rascaldom philosophy may go on. We have got answer for all the rascals. They are all rascals. 740529mw.rom

Never once have I heard or read him say otherwise. He, rather, wanted our society to show the Western world the right path by perfectly following the Vedic culture and set a good example on how to lead a virtuous and cultured life. "Srila Prabhupada: In the Western countries there is no such distinction between man and woman, but there is. We have to accept it and construct this social institution in that way. Then it will be perfect." (Lecture: Bg. 16.7 Hawaii, February 3, 1975) (My emphasis)

Srila Prabhupada once said, "Who is my disciple? First of all let him follow strictly the disciplined rules." Morning walk June 13 1976 Detroit

Contrary to doing so we are trying to implement the Western culture in ISKCON with our "liberal" ideas. This is ridiculous!!! I am surprised that this basic point of Vedic culture has eluded all those who have so openly published this letter without thinking of the consequences.

In the list of the purposes of the Back To Godhead, point no 3 and 4 is to offer guidance in the Vedic techniques of spiritual life and to preserve and spread the Vedic culture. WHAT Vedic techniques are you talking of when you want to establish feminism in ISKCON? WHAT Vedic culture are you going to preserve if you don't even know what its basic points are, what to speak of actually spreading it? No wonder every decent cultured person what to speak of the strict sampradaya followers consider our movement to be a Western movement rather than a Vedic one and none of them take us seriously. Have we become so advanced that we can disregard sastra or the vaisnavas who have been practicing Vedic culture since their respective sampradayas were started?

Last year or the year before the IRW now HKW published on the front page a group of matajis doing Yajna. This was so ludicrous to all the people who saw it and some people even sarcastically remarked that contrary to establishing Vedic culture ISKCON was actually destroying it by allowing such fooishness to happen. It wouldn't at all be surprising if the other sampradayas banned us from even entering their temples if they saw this article or similar such ones. It is not at all enough to brag that we have the best philosophy, you still need to have the culture to practice it properly. Actions speak louder than words.

It also reflects on the point as to how fallen we are that we not only disobey the acarya but blatantly oppose him by publishing our foolish Western ideas, which he so condemned, in the very magazine he started to establish the Vedic culture. This is the height of "rascaldom".

Being a devotee does not mean you transgress the laws of Vedic conduct, rather that you follow them to the utmost extent possible. Being a devotee does not make you transcendental to following scripture, rather you become transcendental by following it. Even in the spiritual world, the men and women are never equal. They never work on an "equal" level. They are two different classes altogether. We have seen enough examples in our society of what happened to people who considered themselves transcendental and flouted all given rules and norms of sastra, yet we foolishly persist in doing the same thing. This is crass stupidity!!! Have we learnt nothing from these people? Or maybe we've missed the point altogether?

"He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination." (Bg 16.23)

"The human life is especially meant for purifying one's existence, and one who does not follow the rules and regulations cannot purify himself, nor can he attain the real stage of happiness." (Bg 16.23 SP Purport)

"Thus one who is deliberately transgressing the rules and regulations of the sastras is simply involving himself more and more in material existence in the three modes of material nature. Human society should therefore follow the Vedic principles of life, which are summarized in Bhagavad-gita. Otherwise life in material existence will continue." (SB 4.26.8) "Now, in the Manu-saàhitä it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. Children are not given freedom, but that does not mean that they are kept as slaves. The demons have now neglected such injunctions, and they think that women should be given as much freedom as men. However, this has not improved the social condition of the world." Bg 16.7 purport

Thus even from a commonsense point of view it is to be seen that modern society has not at all benefitted women by feminism, so why should we follow a failed idea. Equal rights will not help the human society. (B. F. Skinner and Henry David Thoreau)

Equal rights is an artificial introduction to human society. (Bertrand Russell)

Ladies with managemental capabilities could assist in management as members of the temple council but not as leaders. It is agreed that women have not been given their due but then have so many others. Why single out women? We must not go against the very idea the movement has been set upon. Two wrongs don't make a right. The heart of the problem lies, I reiterate again, in not properly following Vedic culture thus creating a disturbance within the society for its members and the world at large. We cannot have our feet on both ships by following both Western and Vedic ideologies simply because they are completely opposed to each other. You cannot combine them, no matter how hard you try. Rather the concerned people should take guidance from sastra, other sampradayas, arrange seminars inviting people with Vedic backgrounds to give discourses etc, come to India stay with the orthodox followers of the Sri and Madhva sampradayas and learn from them. This January H.H. Bhakti Vikas Swami arranged a short tour of

The management of this society has a long way to go as far as giving it's members a proper position in spiritual life but we must all work for this rather than go off on tangents.

Most probably this letter will not have much effect on you but yet I write it not to offend you by my strong remarks but to expose your fallacious logic in writing the letter and publishing it in the Back To Godhead magazine. I apologize if this letter sounds pompous and with a holier than thou attitude. I am trying to come to the proper standard too and I have no illusions about being superior to anyone else.

Ys, Kanai Thakur das (initiated by Bhakti Vaibhava Swami)