Guest guest Posted July 5, 2003 Report Share Posted July 5, 2003 Srila Prabhupada has written: "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikunthha planet, for it is the eternal abode." (Srimad Bhagavatam, 3.16.26 purport.) The amazing and amusing thing is that people who fault me for my no-fall position over the jiva issue, claim that I speculate, or relativize Prabhupada, or I deviate from his teachings, but here he has stated clearly, so clearly that a very small child can understand, "the conclusion". So, I accept the conclusion. What is my fault for accepting the conclusion? Other wallahs don't accept the conclusion, yet they claim to adhere to Prabhupada's teachings. What can be done for such people, I don't know. And while they reject the conclusion they claim to be more faithful to Srila Prabhupada than me. Is this Kali-yuga or what? (Most of us tend to remember that Kali-yuga is the age of quarrel, but tend to forget that it is also the age of hypocrisy). When my friend Kurma Rupa confronted a purportedly learned swami about "the conclusion", the swami, who was accusing us of deviating, and of twisting the words of Prabhupada, without batting an eye, reportedly said, "I know that Prabhupada said this is the conclusion, but we know what he means." Right. Prabhupada doesn't know what he means when he says "the conclusion" but "we" know. Jai. Amazing. Here is a similar version of this logic. You are talking to a Christian and you are pressing home the point that the Lord has ordered in His ten commandments "Thou shall not kill." So this Christian waffler rebuts with, "We know what He said, but we know what he means." Which means that Thou shall not kill does not really mean what is plainly written there. And we condemn such people as wafflers etc etc etc, but when we waffle with Prabhupada's words, it is okay. We know what he means. He means the opposite of what he says is the conclusion. Brilliant. And then, my good God, the absurd articles in BTG, preaching mayavada with a twist, instead of brahma satyam jagan mithya teaching goloka satyam jagan mithya, just to win a debate. No regard at all for the truth, for siddhanta. Why? Because it is Kali-yuga and hypocrisy is now a virtue. Prabhupada wrote all those volumes of books so we would present mayavada in BTG? Amazing. As for the embarrassing book, "Our Original Position" well, one thing for sure, those positioning themselves to be acaryas, whose name appear on that pathetic work of pseudo-philosophy, had better forget about being known as an acarya. "Laughingstock" is far more likely to be the title they will receive. Time is a ruthless judge of events. Meanwhile, I accept the conclusion, because Srila Prabhupada said it, because it makes sense, and because it is supported by sastra. Simple. Radhe Shyama. ys. Kundali. -- The Conclusion from the Leaves Book: Conclusion We have presented the conclusion of the sastra and Vaisnava acaryas. We have also tried to reconcile the views of Srila Prabupada by reference to the preaching and practical example of our predecesor acaryas, but in the end it is difficult to know the mind of a great soul of Srila Prabhupada's stature. Subsequently, everyone is free to accept whatever reasoning satisfies himself. as we have stated in the introduction to this book, it is inconceivable that any resident of the spiritual world could fall down to become a conditioned soul; but it is not inconceivable that the real explanation is that conditioned souls were always conditioned souls and that the reason for this is inconceivable. In spite of all we have said, we believe that because Srila Prabhupada said both things on the jiva-issue then any follower should be free to say either one or both if he so chooses. We go along with the general understanding that preaching can and is often different from the siddhanta and that all preaching should take into consideration time,place, and circumstance, but everyone should know the siddhanta. Still, despite the siddhanta we see it as no crime if one preaches that we fell from Vaikuntha. Either way, who can object to repeating what Srila Prabhuada said: And so, in the end we have nothingagainst those who believe in the fall-down theory. The real challenge is how to get out. Therefore, instead of focusing on how we got here, we consider it real service to focus each other on how to get out. This will surely please Srila Prabhupada and pleasing him is the key to our success on this pat. On this note let us digest these two statements of Srila Prabhupada and take them into our hearts: "It realy does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come in contact with the material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place (Bg. 13.20,purport) And this from the aforementioned room conversation in London on August 17,1971: Prabhupada: Therefore acintya. Therefore acintya, inconceivalbe (Pause) Chant Hare Krsna. Don't try to understand Krsna. Simply try to love Him. That is perfection. That's all. You cannot undersand Krsna. Nobody can understand. Krsna Himself cannot understand Himself. Yes (Laughter) He's so acintya. And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business; how to love Krsna, now to serve Krsna. That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Krsna. Nobody can. Krsna Himself canot understand." Om Tat Sat. Kundali Prabhu (In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall) -- Kundali Prabhus' book is comprehensive and should not be ignored if you are concerned about this topic. You then owe it to yourself to study the words of our acaryas and peacefuly execute Krsna consciousness regardless of how you chose to understand and to whatever extent you can realize their words. The Leaves Book comes in five waves. First Wave: Siddhanta : 10 chapters Second Wave: Reconcilaition : 7 chapters Third Wave: Objections : 13 chapters Fourth Wave: Additional Evidence : 19 chapters Fifth Wave: Conclusion Your servant, Puru Das Adhikari the entire thread of forum discussion on this topic can be found at http://www.vnn.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000314.html Did we fall from Vaikuntha or not? (Page 1) -- Dear Kiranasa Hare Krsna You wrote: "Iskcon says we fell from Vaikuntha, but there are many devotees that saying we never been there! and nobody can fall from Vaikuntha. So I am confused. Then where are we coming from? Then " Back home, back to godhead" has no meaning!Is there anyone who can clear this out?" Kundali's book "In Vaikuntha not even the leaves fall" is the book to read and it answers all questions about the jiva issue. It should never have been banned from Iskcon, but as the reader goes trough its pages, it becomes very clear, why Iskcon has banned this amazing book. Its simply to embarassing to admit failure in understanding Srila Prabhupadas books properly after so many years of pretending to be divine graces, who are suposed to have understood and realised the conclusion of the scriptures. Kundalis book shows his deep insight into the matter and is a must for everyone concerned in getting serious and truthfull answers to your questions. He also explaines in great detail why Srila Prabhupada said both, that we have fallen and also that we did not. As you continue reading the pages, Srila Prabhupada's amazing preaching genius becomes simply astonishing, even more then before. Suddenly everything becomes clear and the confusion is gone. Kundali prabhu quotes from Srila Bhaktivinoda, from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Prabhupada of course, from sruti and smrti, many other acaryas, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana, Srila Jiva Gosvami, Srila Rupa Gosvami, and lots of evidence and support from other genuine sources. The book is very well researched and definately worth its money There is also a little more info on this site http://members.xoom.com/kundalidasa This book ends the confusion, or should be, but it might also not, because there are three types of discussions vada, jalpa and vitanda. In a vada discussion the motive of all concerned is to find the truth, this is supposed to be the perfect and ideal discussion. The persons who engage like this are sober and impartial about the outcome. they simply want to know what is the truth of the matter. They are in the mood of goodness. Jalpa is a discussion wherein one is not interessted in what is said by others, wether it has some truth or all the truth, because one simply wants to be heard. Any other view or or contribution is of no interest. The mode of passion. A vitanda discussion is in the mode of ignorance. In this version the truth is of no value. One simply wants to win at all cost. This book is for devotees who are interested in vada ( taken from the introduction ) Here's the list of some more of Kundalis books and where to obtain them - The Nectar of Discrimination 300 BF - From Vaikuntha not even the Leaves Fall 500 BF - Our Mission part 2 200 BF - Our Mission part 3 200 BF - Our Mission part 4 you should get in India, - Is Discrimination Jnana-yoga? 200 BF - Supersoul Realization 200 BF + posting (the prices are in Belgium Francs) This is the address: Karen Coppens / Keshava-priya dd Orchideeënlaan 28 1820 Steenokkerzeel Belgium Karen Coppens Karen.Coppens@netbuilding.simac.be Write to her and she will be able to supply with any of the books. Hope this helps Your servant Devarsirat Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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