sumedh Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Hare Krishna please accept my humble obeisances That previous post was mine, so may i reply to your points... The problem from a Christian p.o.v. is that as far as we're concerned, Christ is I guess what you would call the highest, eternal "expansion" of God - the Logos, which in Greek means the word/rationale of God. He has all of the "opulences" of His Father, and is in fact the agency by which all things which are have come into being. This point is well understood. But the question is who draws these conclusions from the teachings of Jesus Christ? Elsewhere, i have read that some think that Christ is the revealed name of God, and Jesus is son and Jesus Christ is the name just as a son uses his father's name. So some Christians hold this view also. Similiar to this there are different sampradayas which interpret the Vedic texts differently which includes Vaishnavas, Shaivas to impersonal interpretation of Shakaracharya. But since Padma puraana mentions four sampradayas as authentic (all of which are vaishnava) we accept their teachings as authentic. Also the fact that only the vaishnava sampradayas accept all the Vedic texts as authentic, as opposed to others who reject those which are not conducive to their interpretation. So the question is how do you take the understanding you presented to be authentic as opposed to others. On the otherhand, Orthodox Christianity teaches that all things (including souls, whether they be those of men or the different classes of angelic spirits) are created, they had a begining, and if they have no end, this will be solely by the will of God. Yes, this is at odds with the teachings of Vaishnavism. All that exists comes from the Supreme Lord (from the eternal spiritual platform) and so is spiritual and eternal, the difference of spiritual and material is only technical as the other poster mentioned. So even the material energy is eternal, just that it is transformed (or withdrawn) at the time of total annihilation. Of course, the material bodies are created and the situation of a spirit soul encased in it is an unnatural temporary position only. But the point is that what you quote may actually mean creation as being part of God and not with respect to material Time which has a different (absolute, eternal) nature in the spiritual realm. If you wish we can have a meaningful discussion on this particular point -- how is everything eternal. In my opinion, it is very difficult to reconcile any other interpretation with the overall understanding of (even Christian concept) God. The Vedic concept of avataar is quite different from the Christian idea of reincarnation as you can see from the other post. What to speak of the Supreme Lord, even the associates of Lord and other liberated souls are not under material nature and their bodies are not material nor is their any difference between their body and soul. So the normal conditioned souls cannot perceive the spiritual nature of God even when He appears as an avataar rather just see a "illusory shadow" because their senses are covered. As you can see vaishnavas view Jesus Christ with utmost respect, but when some claim that Jesus is the only saviour etc., then they do mock such an idea. Also the concept that God changes in some way when He manifests on material plane, is not seen well by vaishnavas because this implies that God comes under the spell of His inferior energy and becomes illusioned to some extent -- such an interpretation is considered "Mayavadi". Finally, vaishnavas consider the concept of eternal hell of most Christians as completely wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shmuel Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 jesus died there were no christians. jesus is not christian. what is this philosophy? perhaps as a gentile as with us non gentiles if you are humble enough one day you might be able to associate with the dust on the bottom of his feet. other than that please give up this "ownership" concept of jusus. think about this. what was it that made jesus so enraged that he was moved to violence? here is a hint. it was a law that no christian today that I have ever met follows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shmuel Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 when did jesus ever say he was the son of god? no jew would have listened to this blasphemy even if he believed it. all the years I spend studying christianity I never once came accoss that. he can call god abba and so can I. jesus did say that he was the son of man. and what does that mean? servant of man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shmuel Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 firstly I'm not sure what you mean bu involved. god is not attached. secondly it is god's mercy that the wandering souls are in illusion and wandering around wondering what the true object of worship is. god is always available is he not. he is always "involved" in that sense. but he is not "involved" in some mandatory way that obviates free will. if you were to asj krsna about jesus he would say that he is a very nice boy. he would say the same of you. what he does "not see" is that you are a rascal. furthermore this pompous attitute that christians have by claiming christ is disrespectful. especially in light of the endless and continuing horrors that christians comit in god's name. they may not be christian acts but they are acts commited by christians. this is the fault effect of being a true christian not by changing behavior but meerly by accepting christ. if you want to preach to people about getting their own wagon, I can equally make the charge that you kindly keep your hands off of our Rabbis and find your own Messiah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shmuel Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 jesus' pastimes and qualities are relishable. how is talking about jesus a waste of time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shmuel Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 krista is sanskrit. christos is greek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shmuel Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 this is nonsense. christian means non jewish follower of jesus. jesus is not christian. that is nonsensical. jesus is jesus. he is a jew. bar mitzvah circumcised. seder dinner, saturday worshiping holy day jew. I ask you the same question. what was the jewish law the breaking of which that drove jesus to violence? and once again my hint is that it is a law that no christian that I have ever met observes or would observe no matter how important it is to jesus. but EVERY orthodox jew today religiously follows this law. it is you dear sir who are confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 jews as Krsna Vaisnava devotees, perplexity, do you shuemal eat animals or do you support kosher killing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 The story of Jesus being tempted by Satan. Mark simply states that Jesus was tempted by Satan (1:13) -- Quote -- 13and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him. -- but Matthew (4:1-11) and Luke (4:1-13) elaborate the story. It is claimed that during Jesus' alleged forty days' sojourn in the desert, following his baptism by John, Satan tempted him with promises of an earthly kingdom if Jesus would only worship him. Matthew 4 The Temptation of Jesus 1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Now satan must have known that jesus is not GOD. Otherwise he would not even try to tempt jesus and offer jesus world. Satan is not stupid enough to offer to GOD this world, HIS creation, which belongs to HIM anyway. Besides Hebrews 2:18 confirms Jesus was tempted 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. What about the following verses which says that GOD cannot be tempted. James 1 13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Jesus confirms that he is not GOOD. Jesus(P) would not even accept the praise of a man who called him good: Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.' " Gospels say that Jesus was led by spirit to be tempted by satan. Satan tries to tempt Jesus knowing that Jesus is not GOD and that is why satan tries to offer Jesus worldly kingdom. The verse from Hebrew confirms again that Jesus SUFFERED when he was tempted. Implies that Jesus was tempted. James confirms that GOD cannot be tempted and that anyone is tempted by their own evil desires. Jesus HIMSELF confirms in Mark that he does not consider HIMSELF GOOD. Combine all these points rationally. We can see that Jesus is not GOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 and again yes it is peculiar why I have many brothers and sisters from our traditional Jew liniage who now practice Krsna consciousness...is this what the Lord Krsna means when he tells Arjuna "to give up all varieties of religion" surrender unto Me...? oh..... to be ever felicitate in the dust of the feet of genuine Vaisnava's..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 Unfortunately, I think you may be a little misled. All Christians do believe Jesus is God, not just the Son of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabrahman Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 in the bible it reffers to jesus many times as the SON of god. In the vaisnava religion jesus is look at in a form of a guru. HE also states that "we are all childern of god" so him being the son of god is reffering him to be just like everybody else. God specificly sent jesus to teach everyone this. Only people who have been misinformed that jesus is god. If you still think jesus is god, read the bible a little more closely. Hare Cristos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Please,dont be ofended but I am a christian and I do believe in Jesus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 I am so sorry that i ever said those words. Now that i go back and read them, it almost seems as if it was written by someone else. Well, i take back what i said, and, if you can, please forgive me. Thank you very much. God bless you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2005 Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 All Christians do NOT believe that Jesus was God I know Christians who do believe he was God using arguments such as "I and my father are one" and I know christians that believe he was the Son of god and the second person in the Trinity which is although THREE still just one. Simultaneous oneness and difference ( does that ring any bells hehe) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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