Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 "Thou shalt not kill" in the Bible refers to the unauthorized killing of a human being. This commandment extends from physical bloodshed down to the mere harboring of hateful thoughts against one's neighbor. It is not strictly speaking a ban on killing animals or plants, nor is it a ban on capital punishment by a legitimate government. Vegetarianism is not the main principle. The main principle is that everything must be offered to God. Secondarily, what is offered should be only that which God will accept. That is where vegetarianism comes in. However, all the acaryas admit that for those in the modes of passion and ignorance, there are certain circumstances under which animals may be eaten. The Vedas allow for this, though they do not praise it. The Bible was written during Kaliyuga, for those who live during Kaliyuga. There is no possibility of creating a worldwide strict Vedic culture during Kaliyuga. Irrational optimism by overly enthusiastic neophyte devotees notwithstanding, the sins and living conditions will grow progressively worse, with only sporadic relatively minor upsurges of spirituality. Meat-eating is not the main offense. The main offense is not offering everything to God. Practically speaking, if people really offered everything to God, they would quickly cease to be ravenous atheistic gluttons, and they would be able to think more clearly about WHAT they are offering, whether it is right to offer certain things, etc... So the principle that must be emphasized is to offer everything to God. In other words, not to steal God's property. With that principle firmly in place, you can then gently discuss vegetarianism. But if you start off shouting "Murderer!" at people who are simply eating what their ancestors ate for the last hundred generations, you will harden their hearts so that they will kill even more cows. And that killing YOU will be responsible for. First train them to offer EVERYTHING to God, then train them to be selective about their consumption. That is the proper way to teach sanatana-dharma. (As an aside, I have personally witnessed ISKCON devotees who wouldn't dream of eating meat, yet think nothing of harboring and expressing the most hateful and violent thoughts about their human neighbors who do. Thus they are guilty of violating "Thou shalt not kill".) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 the original phrase in the Bible is "Thou shall not kill", which refers to killing organisms, let it be either human or animal. however, this was edited to "thou shall not murder", which refers to humans. one doesn't murder cows or dogs. one murder humans. the evildoers, kings, etc. changed this. the original teachings were bonafide. but those looking for sense gratification twisted the teachings to make them suitable for them. what you say is wrong. do you think it is right to offer beef and turkey and such to Krishna? i don't think so. i understand what you are saying, but the lord says: "If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, flower, fruit or water, I will accept it." he doesn't say "if one offers me anything, I will accept it." also, how can one have LOVE and DEVOTION if he engages himself in slaughtering other organisms? why ask the Lord for mercy when you don't care about other organisms? it's like saying, "Lord please help me while I kill your children?" Prabhupada(Krsna Book):Why should one kill innocent animals to maintain the body? “My dear King,” the Lord said, “because you are a kshatriya, you have committed the offense of slaughtering animals, both in hunting and in political engagements. To become purified, just engage yourself in the practice of bhakti-yoga and always keep your mind absorbed in Me. Very soon you will be freed from all reactions to such sordid activities.” even Lord Krishna said that killing animals was a "sordid" activity. Hare Krishna! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 All competent Biblical scholars agree that "thou shalt not kill" in the Bible has exactly the meaning I use. Since the Bible specifically commanded that animals were to be be offered in sacrifice and afterward eaten, your interpretation is not valid. "Thou shalt not kill" refers to the unauthorized killing of human beings, not to "organisms" as you claim. This understanding of the Bible is very well settled, so much so that I can not even debate with you if you will not admit it. Better to take the Bible As It Is and try to understand WHY it is that way, than to perform word jugglery to make it appear agree with what you wish it taught. Your well wisher..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 You say the Bible was written specifically for kali-yuga, so for arguments sake lets say this is true, then would you agree that the Bible would really like you to give up meat, and Not unneccessary kill poor animals. If this is the case, then you should at least consider giving-up eating flesh and understand some of the purports to this Holy Book. Thankyou.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Yes, it is certainly better not to kill poor animals, especially when there is no emergency. In no way do I mean to praise animal killing and meat-eating. I am simply trying to place things in perspective by pointing out that the principle of offering everything to the Lord is a more general principle than vegetarianism. I believe Prabhupada has also said this. It is far more difficult to develop the practice of offering everything to God than to simply give up eating certain foods. After all, we spend maybe a few minutes a day actually putting food into our mouths, but we are supposed to spend every nanosecond consciously offering our thoughts, words, and deeds to God! Incidentally, I also wanted to warn about two fallacies that are common among those who may not have studied the Bible thoroughly. The first fallacy is to reject the Bible as an inferior scripture because of its animal sacrificial system (the sacrifices were not at all directed toward sense gratification - they had another purpose altogether, which has totally ceased since the advent of the Lord Jesus Christ). The second is to juggle words to make it appear that the Bible has no such system. I can say more about these fallacies in another place, if need be. As far as the Bible is concerned, I readily admit that the Bible describes a vegetarian diet for all creatures before the so-called "fall". Therefore, this diet is the ideal, original diet under sinless conditions. However, according to the Bible, we are not now living in that sin-free condition. Nor, according to the Bible, can the earth be returned to those conditions by anything that mankind does, even if somehow the whole human race were persuaded to become vegetarians. Time is stronger than us, and Time has its unchanging schedule. The age is deteriorating inexorably, according to both Bible and Veda. Yet the Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is so merciful that He wants to find a way to bring even the most sinful creatures back to Godhead. This is also the mission of the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in the Holy Name of God is the method of both those Personalities of Godhead. Caitanya appeared in a society where vegetarianism was a long-established cultural practice. Jesus appeared in a society where there had never been any significant vegetarian trend. Your well wisher.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Hare Krishna You say about the Vedas and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they are no meat-eaters in Vaishnava society and there can never be, a pure devotee may make concessions now and again, but that is Not for us, Lord Jesus Christ may have ate flesh, but Srila Prabhupada famously said 'He can eat the entire world!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Yes, the regulation of Vaishnava society is vegetarianism. That is certainly correct. In fact, you are answering very well, and I thank you for your gracious words. That is proper devotee etiquette. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not only the guru of the official Vaishnava society. Nor is Lord Jesus the guru only of the official Christian society. They are jagad-guru. They must be everyone's guru, even those in the rajo and tamo gunas. They can, and will, "eat the whole world". Please understand that I am not trying to represent "only the Bible". I am trying to see how both Bible and Veda are flawless scripture. I am trying to find the best meaning in both Bible and Veda, without cheating by juggling the texts. Mahaprabhu and Christ MUST be in agreement, or else at least one of them is false teacher. I trust that They are in agreement, though They emphasize differently due to the culture in which They appear. This is a fact. There are nominal "Christians" who are superstitiously averse to any scripture other than the Bible, and who reject all avatars except Jesus Christ. There are also "Hindu chauvinists" who have irrational hatred for Christianity and the Bible. Both positions are wrong. There must be reconciliation. The common ground must be: all belongs to God, or Krsna, and one should accept only his quota, only what he absolutely needs to keep body and soul together. And those things must be first offered to the Lord in sacrifice, or else one is a thief. Your well wisher... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 When Srila Prabhupada met with a Priest he requested him to stop the eating of meat, saying that Jesus Christ message was to not eat flesh, there is nothing more I have to say on this matter, I thankyou for your association, speak again I hope, Hare Krishna. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 Beyond Birth and Death, Chapter 1 Prabhupada: There are many books of knowledge, which vary according to the country, population, environment, etc. In India the books of knowledge are referred to as the Vedas. In the West they are called the Old Testament and New Testament. The Muhammadans accept the Koran...Their purpose is to restrict bodily activities by certain rules and regulations, and these rules and regulations are known as codes of morality...The regulative principles may differ from country to country or from scripture to scripture, but that doesn’t matter, for they are made according to the time and circumstances and the mentality of the people. But the principle of regulated control is the same Letter to Tosana Krsna, June 23 1970 Prabhupada: So on the principle that God is Supreme, God is Great, I do not think there is any difference of opinion between us and the Christians. But the Vedic literatures being older and disseminated by many, many superior acaryas we can find out how God is great, how the creation took place one after another. These details are not found in any other scriptures in the world CC Adi 17.169 Purport: The sastras of the yavanas, or meat-eaters, are not eternal scriptures. They have been fashioned recently, and sometimes they contradict one another. The scriptures of the yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran. Their compilation has a history; they are not eternal like the Vedic knowledge. Therefore although they have their arguments and reasonings, they are not very sound and transcendental. As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable Morning Walk April 20, 1974 Pancadravida: ...that these Old and New Testament and Koran, they are the sastras of the (sic:) yauvanas. They are not the same as the Vedic sastras. They are not as... They are not bona fide like that. Prabhupada: Yes. Pancadravida: Does this mean they are not authentic or... How did they come here? Prabhupada: Who? Pancadravida: These Bible and Koran, how did they get here? They were just inventions or what? Prabhupada: Convention means they are partially good for the time being, that’s all. They are not eternally... Just like in the Bible it is said, “Thou shalt not kill.” (chuckles) But this is not, does not come within the category of eternal religion. People were so corrupted that they were forbidden, “No, don’t do this.” “Thou shalt not covet,” a little moral instruction. That also, they could not follow. There is no religion. And little God consciousness, “There is God, kingdom of God,” little idea for the persons who could understand. Otherwise, do you think that if somebody says, “Thou shalt not kill,” is that any religious principle? It is ordinary thing. Where is the question of God? Lecture September 23, 1969 Prabhupada: If you think that “I shall read scriptures and I shall understand God,” no, that is also not possible. Çrutayo vibhinnäù. Scriptures are also different. Because scriptures are made according to time, circumstances, people. Just like Bible. Bible Lord Jesus Christ preached in the desert, Jerusalem. Or where it is? People who were not so advanced. Therefore his first instruction is “Thou shall not kill.” That means they were very much engaged in killing affairs; otherwise, why is this instruction? And actually, it so happened that they killed Jesus Christ. So that society was not very enlightened society. So a scripture for a society which is not very enlightened and a scripture for a society which is very enlightened must be different. Just like a dictionary. For the schoolboy, a pocket dictionary. And for a college student, international, big dictionary. Both of them are dictionaries. But the small pocket dictionary is not equal to the big dictionary. Because it is different made for different classes of men. So scriptures are made according to different classes of men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.