Krishna all powerful?

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

 

I'm new to KC, and am not trying to be blasphemous - i am probably just not self-realised enough, but i'd appreciate answer to following questions - i don't mean to cause offence...

 

Krishna wants us to love him through free will.

 

Yet does it not place a limit on his power, that in order to make this happen he has to create a world of suffering in order to ensure that all souls return?

 

Surely Krishna does NOT want souls to suffer, yet he still creates the material world, suggesting that he is doing something he DOES NOT want to do.

 

If we are all eternally fragmentary from Krishna, does that not place limit on Krishna's power, since he cannot take away that fragmentary aspect? (by definition if we are eternally fragmentary, then it can never be otherwise)

 

Why does Krishna not let us remember at least one previous life, so that we can realise how much suffering there is in the material world?

 

Spiritually we are all equal, yet some souls decided to go away from the Lord. I know we all have desires, but surely if our souls were created by Lord, then he would not discriminate and give some souls desires that would ultimately make them suffer. I know, you are all going to say the soul is eternal - so was never created, not even by Lord, because we were always there, just as Krishna was always there - but then does that not also place limit on Krishna's power, because he had no 'say' in the soul's nature/desires?

 

Thank you in advance for your answers

 

Haribol

[Guest guest]

HAreKrishna!All glories to Srila Prabhupada!I offer my humble obeisances unto Him!

 

"Krishna wants us to love him through free will. Yet does it not place a limit on his power, that in order to make this happen he has to create a world of suffering in order to ensure that all souls return?"

 

Yes,Krishna will accept only if we love Him and not forced. Krishna did not create this world for us on His own accord. We as desirous souls wanted to lord over material nature so HE gave this world for us. In fact He is so merciful that HE has given everything so that we can behave like GODS. It shows HIS mercy because we asked HE gave.Thats all. The other thing is whatever suffering happening in this world is not because of Krishna but because of makind himself. Because of desire,greed and pride he takes things that does not belong to him and end up in struggle and pain.The strong exploit the weak.Isnt that what is happening in this world. So Krishna did not do this but man himself.Seeing all this strife Krishna again is so merciful comes down and preaches the Bhagavad Gita and enlightens man.But,again due to our perverted nature we never follow any of His principles,right?and again fall into pain and suffering.So the free will is ours,that free will is the indication of our spiritual consciousness,that we are spirit souls so it is upto us to use it wisely and waste it.So we cannot blame Krishna for the sufferings but only oursleves and we should thank HIM for creating this planet so that we can use this as a platform to go back to HIM.

 

"If we are all eternally fragmentary from Krishna, does that not place limit on Krishna's power, since he cannot take away that fragmentary aspect? (by definition if we are eternally fragmentary, then it can never be otherwise)"

 

No, not true.Krishna is the Supreme absolute truth which meanse He is perfect and absolute. Even though we are part and parcel of Krishna Krishna does not lose any power. It is like the sun rays and the sun itself.Does the sun lose its power because of its rays or becuase it sends out light particles or does the ocean lose its saltiness or decrease in its saltiness because you use some ocean water. No, Krishna is absolute and HE never loses power because we are HIS fragmented parcels.You should read Srila Prabhupada's explanation on this.He has answered this question.

 

"Why does Krishna not let us remember at least one previous life, so that we can realise how much suffering there is in the material world?"

 

We cannot remember everythin that happened to us in this life what to speak of the previous life. To prove that man is suffering you do not need the remembrance of previous life. Humans all have birth,disease,old age and death.It is pretty clear that we suffer all the time. So why remember and feel bad about it. We know we are suffering and so look into the future and try to clear all sufferings and that can be done only in Krishna Consciousness. What would make things much easier is Krishna coming personally in front us and asking us to do the right thing.No,thats not how things perform,we have to with our free will love HIM 100% without condition.First lets do that and then we can see the change. Actually we do have Krishna in the form of the MahaMantra and Srila Prabhupada's books. So we dont need previous life memory to remind us of sufferings as suffering can be seen pretty clear in front of in our daily lives.

 

"Spiritually we are all equal, yet some souls decided to go away from the Lord. I know we all have desires, but surely if our souls were created by Lord, then he would not discriminate and give some souls desires that would ultimately make them suffer. I know, you are all going to say the soul is eternal - so was never created, not even by Lord, because we were always there, just as Krishna was always there - but then does that not also place limit on Krishna's power, because he had no 'say' in the soul's nature/desires"

 

Again, its not true.Krishna did not give some souls desires and vice versa.It is the free will of the independent soul to act in the way it is. For example,I will give you a scenario and let us consider the general actions. It says in the scriptures that we as humans should wake up 2 hrs before sunrise(brahmamuhurta) generally around 4.00-5.00am in the morning,take a cold shower and chant the Holy name of the Lord. If we do this regularly we can realize God.Now tell me my friend,we do not need anything or anyones help to do this.But still how many people actually do this.Clearly this is the aspect of free will we are talking about.This is just a small example of not following strict discipline which over a period of time we will all become lazy and live in the mode of ignorance. So even though we have the capacity we fail to act piously. This is just a small example.We can go on like this for many things from eating to sleeping to social behavior and stuff. So we should not blame Krishna for the ill effects but ourselves and our bad Karma which takes its toll on use due to our misuse of our free will. So Krishna creates the ambience for generating desire and love,only some take advantage of their free will and serve Krishna and most of us dont.So let us all chant and serve Him and the we can see the change.

 

Haribol!

 

Ananda

 

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

 

Firstly thanks for your answers,

 

But, still my question is not whether God is not merciful. It is whether he is all powerful. He HAS to make a material prison to rehabilitate us - that is the only way that his desire for us to love him freely can be fulfilled...Yet Krishna does not want us to suffer - so HE IS FORCED INTO DOING SOMETHING HE DOESN'T WANT TO DO - that doesn't seem to go well with 'ALL-POWERFUL'

 

God can do everything right? So CAN KRISHNA TAKE AWAY OUR FRAGMENTARY ASPECT? if the answer is no, how is he all powerful?

 

So if all souls are blessed with the same quality, what is it that determines the choice they make? Nothing happens by chance right? So there must be a reason, some defect within the fallen souls that made them choose to go away from Lord in the beginning...If there is a defect, then even spiritually we are not equal...If there is no defect, then it seems TOTALLY random that some souls desired to be away from Krishna - but the whole of the Vedas talks about CAUSE of everything

[Guest guest]

He HAS to make a material prison to rehabilitate us

--no, he's god, he has no duties, we are here because this is exactly our desire.. we, as spiritual souls, are CIT, conscious, if we want to forget GOD He has to give us the forgetfulness through his energy maya. So he has to do nothing, simply he want to gant us the freedom to forget him. And we need his help also to forget him. From the forgetfullnes of god everything comes... birth death, disease, pain, suffering etc.

 

.Yet Krishna does not want us to suffer

--yes, he has given to us the freedom to go away.. and he gives also the freedom to go back coming personally or sending his representatives to teach to us religion and spirituality

 

HE IS FORCED INTO DOING SOMETHING HE DOESN'T WANT TO DO

--no.. he's not forced, he want us to be free and he gives the freedom to go away and to come back. our suffering is not a real suffering because we are spiritual souls not bodies

 

God can do everything right? So CAN KRISHNA TAKE AWAY OUR FRAGMENTARY ASPECT?

--there's nothing to take away, we are acynthia beda abeda tattva, different and non different by krsna.. so there's nothing to take away to obtain oneness

 

So if all souls are blessed with the same quality, what is it that determines the choice they make?

--freedom... god is free and we, as parts of god are free.. but we are not omnipotent, so this freedom is given by god not by us. Freedom to go away and to go back

 

So there must be a reason, some defect within the fallen souls that made them choose to go away from Lord in the beginning...

--freedom is not a defect, freedom is also to misuse the freedom. Our problem is that we do not understand freedom and we cannot grasp how one can be in vaikunta and choose to forget god. But it is worth also to say that many souls come back in the spiritual world at early stages of illusion.. many brahmas come back, many indras and so on.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

 

Please forgive if following question causes offence:

 

Krishna then is not powerful enough to be able to convince 100% of souls to come back to him through free will without some of those souls first experiencing suffering?

 

This is really important because it is the basis of Krishna's opulences that makes him different from eerybody else.

 

HAribol

[Guest guest]

Krishna then is not powerful enough to be able to convince 100% of souls to come back to him through free will without some of those souls first experiencing suffering?

--two anwers:

 

1)actually he does it , staying some billions of lives in material world is zero in comparison to the eternal life before and after in vaikunta.. and he convinces us very easily, especially in this kali yuga where we easily go back to godhead with the harinama chanting

2)krsna is in every molecule of our mind, so he can change us in any moment... but he loves us, and to loove means to grant freedom to the loved. And krsna gives this freedom.

 

This is really important because it is the basis of Krishna's opulences that makes him different from eerybody else.

--yes.. one of his opulences is that he's supremely humble and tolerant

 

 

[Guest guest]

it might be zero in comparison but still suffering before going back to Godhead - my question is: is it impossible for God to convince us through our own free will without any soul having any material suffering?

 

 

[Guest guest]

is it impossible for God to convince us through our own free will without any soul having any material suffering?

1)soul is not material, so there's no material suffering for her

2)no.. nothing is impossible for krsna

3)if we are here speaking of krsna this is due not of our own good karma, but it is god's mercy who is inspiring us through paramatma, so he can convince... when we come back to spiritual world it will be like we were away for a millisecond.. nothing, so we come back practically without having suffered any pain if we consider that without god's mercy we had to stay here eternally

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Wonderful questions by the guest on two points.

 

1. Is God all powerful and consequently on free will ?

 

2. Question on human suffering and salvation ?

 

To understand this, one has to understand what is GOD(Lord Krishna), what is soul and what is free will.

 

There are three eternal entities.

 

1. Lord Krishna or Lord Visnu ie GOD: HE is the only independent entity.

 

2. Jivas or us living beings: All Devatas(Demi Gods), Asuras, Human beings, animals, plants, all of these have a spirit in them. This spirit is different from "GOD essence" or matter and still this spirit depends on GOD for its mere existence. Now eventhough a spirit is called eternal without any begining or birth, it is called so only because GOD has always existed. More later

 

3. Matter: This is the substance this whole universe is made of and our bodies are made of. It includes space or ether, different elements, electromagnetic radiations. All of this is called as prakriti. This stuff is unconsious or has no life in it unlike spirit of living beings.

 

Now, the question of all powerfullness or omnipotence of Lord Krishna:

 

What is omnipotence:

 

According to Vedas

 

1. we breathe because of the power of God.

2. we move because of the power of God.

3. we think because of the power of God.

4. we are conscious because of the power of God.

5. we have will power or free will because of the power of God.

6. we and dead matter even exist because of the power of God.

 

This is true of all dependent beings, which includes everuthing alse except Lord Visnu or Lord Krishna.

 

Now the question of free will and suffering.

 

One point should be made clear here, that eventhough all spirits are made of same essence or substance(not physical substance), yet each person is unique and has a visesa(speciality). This visesa is also without begining. That is why two different persons act differently under exactly same circumstances.

 

Another point is that, what is free will ? It is the individual spirit's wish to act according to his inner nature(svabhava characterized by his visesa). Now when our mere existence depends on power of GOD, this free will we have also functions because of the power of GOD. Free will is also different from the act that follows a spirit's free will. That act also depends on the power of God.

 

There is a saying in India that not even a blade of grass moves without HIS will.

 

As for the suffering, the Jivas or the individual spirits have to act according to dharma(as given in Vedas). This is HIS will, and GOD does not change HIS WILL like us humans. The very concept of convincing us through our own free will involves manipulation of our free will. Otherwise free will for humans does not exist, if GOD manipulates our free will and GOD for sure does not want to do this. GOD is no evangelist to manipulate our brains and free will.

[Guest guest]

"Surely Krishna does NOT want souls to suffer, yet he still creates the material world, suggesting that he is doing something he DOES NOT want to do"

 

Mundaka Upanishad and other sastras say this creation is his play. Dualities like suffering and enjoyment are experiences of the ego.

[Guest guest]

some souls than must have inferior visesa to make the stupid decision of leaving Krishna? which means that spiritually we are not all essentially equal...

[Guest guest]

No nitya-muktas desire to leave Krishna, it's not in their nature. See Bhagavatam 11.2. Nor does Krishna fulfill any desires that lead away from him, see Bhagavatam 5.19.27.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

some souls than must have inferior visesa to make the stupid decision of leaving Krishna? which means that spiritually we are not all essentially equal...

 

 

Yes. Not every Hindu will agree with me. But Madhvas do believe that there are three kinds of souls

 

1. Satvika souls: They are eligible for Mukti

 

2. Rajasic souls: They are eligibleonly for continous birth and death. They keep revovling here

 

3. Tamasic souls: They are destined to go to AndhaTamas(eternal hell).

 

This is not just my view(I believe this division which is supported by Bhagavad Gita also), but the view of great AchAryas like Madhva and Raghavendra Swamy.

[Guest guest]

The traigunya souls would fit in category 1 of this system:

 

Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti’s commentary on Srimad Bhagavata 10.87.32:

 

te ca meghopamayA avidyayA AvRtA baddha jIvA eke anye bhaktimajjJAnena tad AvaraNonmuktA mukta jIvAH anye kevalayA pradhAnIbhUtayA vA bhaktyA tadAvaraNonmocita prApita cid Anandamaya bhajanopayogi zarIraH siddha bhaktA anye avidyA yoga rahitA eva nitya pArSadA iti caturvidhAH

 

"There are four types of jivas: 1. baddha— those under the influence of the avidya potency. 2. mukta— those liberated from the covering of avidya through bhakti, but who have not yet attained a spiritual body. These are also called jivanmuktas or liberated while living in the material body. 3. siddha— Those who have attained a siddha deha on the strength of bhakti. These are called baddha muktas or those liberated after being in bondage. 4. nitya parsadas— Those eternally free from contact with ignorance. They are also called nitya siddhas or nitya muktas."

[Guest guest]

what is avidya?

 

Are u actually saying that there are souls who are never going to be liberated because in essence their svabhava is so bad?

 

Does that mean Krishna would just leave them in such a state?

 

Surely Krishna is not as cruel as that...The reason I respect Vedas so much is because it is not based on that fear of eternal damnation in Christianity or Islam...

[Guest guest]

"what is avidya?"

 

Ignorance a.k.a Mahamaya, Krishna's exterior inferior potency.

 

"Are u actually saying that there are souls who are never going to be liberated because in essence their svabhava is so bad?"

 

No, how did you get that idea? baddha jivas never were with Krishna. Their (our) nature is being ignorant of Krishna since ever. Their bondage to maya is beginningless but can certainly have an end.

 

"Does that mean Krishna would just leave them in such a state?

 

Surely Krishna is not as cruel as that...The reason I respect Vedas so much is because it is not based on that fear of eternal damnation in Christianity or Islam... "

 

Krishna is not cruel at all. Cruelty is a material property, Krishna is transcendental. Out of his mercy he has avataras, sastras, acaryas etc., to guide the baddha jivas to him.

 

"The reason I respect Vedas so much is because it is not based on that fear of eternal damnation in Christianity or Islam... "

 

Mleccha dharmas like Christianity and Islam which are full of improper conclusions and use fear to teach are teachings suited for less advanced peoples, and only for a certain time, place, mentality, circumstance etc. They have some elements of Sanatana Dharma in them (else they wouldn't be dharma at all) but are not eternal and universal like Vaidika Dharma.

 

Vishnu is so merciful he gives some form of Dharma even to Mlecchas who have transgressed his laws more than anyone else.

[Guest guest]

so your theory is that there are some souls who were always ignorant, but still have the opportunity to understand Krishna...is that not unfair that some souls were not even in a position to understand Krishna at the beginning? They had no choice but to start at ignorance and work their way up?

[Guest guest]

"so your theory is that there are some souls who were always ignorant, but still have the opportunity to understand Krishna"

 

Ignorance of Krishna is the nature of baddha jivas.

 

Jiva Gosvami in his ParamAtma-sandarbha (47):

 

tadevamananta eva jIvAkhyAs taTasthAH zaktayaH. Tatra tAsAM vargadvayam. Eko vargo’nAditaH eva bhagavadunmukhaH, anyas tvanAditaH eva bhagavat-parAGmukhaH-svabhAvatastadIya jJAna-bhAvAt tadIya-jJAnAbhAvAcca.

 

"In this way the marginal energies called jIvas are unlimited. They have two classes. One class is devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi) and the other is not devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi). This is because the former class of jIvas naturally have knowledge of the Lord and the second class of jIvas naturally do not have knowledge of the Lord."

 

"is that not unfair that some souls were not even in a position to understand Krishna at the beginning?"

 

There was no beginning to His Play of Creation. Our minds can't really understand his transcendental activities. Dualities like fairness and unfairness apply to material things.

 

"They had no choice but to start at ignorance and work their way up?"

 

As I understand it, they are engaging in this lila of his to work their way to up to the other lila.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 9.24.58:

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead acts through His material energy in the creation, maintenance and annihilation of this cosmic manifestation just to deliver the living entity by His compassion and stop the living entity's birth, death and duration of materialistic life. Thus He enables the living being to return home, back to Godhead.

[Guest guest]

But I have always been told 'we must remember our lost relationship with Krishna'.

 

If we were always in ignorance, how will we ever remember something that never happened?

 

If by nature we were ignorant, then Krishna must have wanted it that way - it was not our choice to always be ignoratn - it was our nature since time immemorial...therefore, how can Krishna be all merciful, if some of his souls are given the unfair advantage of being able to understand Krishna eternally...

[Guest guest]

"But I have always been told 'we must remember our lost relationship with Krishna'.

 

If we were always in ignorance, how will we ever remember something that never happened?"

 

Though the baddha jivas never knew of Krishna, serving him is an inherent dormant quality in them (us) that is covered by maya in His Play of Creation.

 

"therefore, how can Krishna be all merciful, if some of his souls are given the unfair advantage of being able to understand Krishna eternally..."

 

Again, Krishna is transcendental. Material logic can't explain his transcendental activities.

 

Jaiva Dharma chapter 10:

 

"We have no means of understanding Isvara’s purpose for manifesting the jivas at the time of creation, and then destroying their forms at the time of the cosmic annihilation. This is all Bhagavan’s lila."

[Guest guest]

look, that last comment is a cop-out...

 

how can religion ever become important in people's lives, when the moment you ask a tough question they just say 'we can't understand' ...we must do better than that...otherwise krishna consciiusness will never reach the heights it should reach...

[Guest guest]

"'we can't understand'"

 

Not by dual logic speculation, but eventually the sadhaka by Krishna's grace can understand Krishna's lila by doing bhakti which is a transcendental activity. Then the sadhaka wiil be in transcendental Krishna Consciousness and be able to understand transcendental matters.

 

Did I say transcendental enough in this thread yet?

[Guest guest]

I have a question. Since Vaikuntha is the perfect place and all of our seva is done for krishna there, then how is it we chose to leave vaikuntha? Since Vaikuntha is free from the 3 fold miseries? There is a book written by Kundali Das titled " a leave falls in Vaikuntha" that discusses this topic quite in depth, unfortunately I have not been able to properly read it.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

I have a question. Since Vaikuntha is the perfect place and all of our seva is done for krishna there, then how is it we chose to leave vaikuntha? Since Vaikuntha is free from the 3 fold miseries? There is a book written by Kundali Das titled " a leave falls in Vaikuntha" that discusses this topic quite in depth, unfortunately I have not been able to properly read it.

 

 

I am back. Sorry for late reply.

 

Somebody mentioned that there is no eternal hell. I am not of that opinion. Eternal hell is a reality and this is stated by Lord Krishna HIMSELF in Bhagavad Gita. Please read the following link for details.

 

http://www.hindu-religion.net/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=51159&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=2&vc=1

 

For your question, no baddha souls were ever in Vaikunta. I do not know from where one gets this idea that souls in bondage were originally in Vaikunta. This is definitely not Vedic knowledge, for Vedas clearly say that once a soul attains Vaikunta there is no return.

 

According to MadhvAchAryA, creation, birth and death is a beginingless process. Some are destined for serving Lord while other souls are destined for hell or eternity in samsara.

[Guest guest]

some related articles on fall issue:

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva.html

 

 

and here

 

 

[moderator's note: second link edited to keep page from going off screen]