BruzWayne Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Hare Krishna. Once Prabhupada wrote that "...when all the good arguments fail then violence is necessary." That's why the Battle of Kurukshetra took place 5000 years ago thus starting the age of Kali. Arjuna didn't want to fight because he was going to have to kill old friends and relatives on the enemy band, however Krishna spoke Bhagavad-Gita with Arjuna and then illusion disappeared from Arjuna's mind, so he fought and won the battle. On the other hand, once I read a book from science fiction writer Isaac Asimov, where a character in the story, a man named Hari Seldom said "Violence is the last resource of incompetent people." It's a very interesting sentence because it means that when someone uses violence it means that such a person was no longer able to use wisdom in order to deal with the situation. But God is famous for having used violence lots of times, for example the destruction of Sodome and Gomorre in the Bible or the divine flood in Noha's Ark story or of course the stories where Krishna kills demons like Kamsa for example. Therefore, Asimov's sentence implies that God has been an incompetent person in the past because He had no other resource of wisdom in order to handle situations. Or is it that Divine Violence by God/Krishna is allowed beyond smart arguments? Interesting debate isn't it? Hare Krishna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Hare krishna, There is a saying that one cannot teach Vedas(wisdom) to an attacking bull. Here, there is no other approach than to kill it for we cannot outrun this animal. Similarly, there are circumstances, like in Mahabharatha, where personalities like Duryodana, Dushyasana were beyond help. All their superiors advises were made useless. These people became so overwhelmed by their selfish desires that they wanted all pandavas dead or atleast denied even a patch of land for their survuval. So the pandavas sitiuation is synonymous like the man attacked by a bull. There is no other way but to destroy your opponents. The opponents here were too strong for Pandavas, except for the presence of Lord Krishna and Bhima(Just like Hanuman in Ramayana). The case of incompetence explained by the author, it seems the author Isaac Asimov did not think about all situations, like the case of terrorism. where the terrorists want you dead anyway. What do you do here. Catch every terrorist and teach everyone of them knowledge and wisdom. This may work and by that time all the sane people of the world will be dead. So violence and force is necessary for some greater good. Even GOD seems to approve that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 But then krishna allowed the Danavas and Daityas to incarnate themselves as Duryodhana and Dushashana etc... So, really Krishna was puuting the whole Mahabharata on as a show, a play, to defeat irreligiosity and display the opulences also...I mean, Duryodhana and Karna went to the heavenly planets for their strict adherence to Kshatriya duty, suggesting they were part of Krishna's masterplan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Hare Krishna, But then krishna allowed the Danavas and Daityas to incarnate themselves as Duryodhana and Dushashana etc... Everything functions because Lord Krishna allows and facilitates that activity or its existence. But Lord Krishna also follows Dharma(which is HIS own WILL). Duryodana and Dushyasana took birth as per their deeds. So did even all the Devatas and Maha Devatas(Assvattama is an Amsa of Lord Shiva) to decrease their Prarabdha Karmas. Yes even Devatas have Karmas and they get rid of it by serving Lord Krishna when HE takes various Avataras. So, really Krishna was puuting the whole Mahabharata on as a show, a play, to defeat irreligiosity and display the opulences For the LORD everything is a play and drama. I mean, Duryodhana and Karna went to the heavenly planets for their strict adherence to Kshatriya duty, suggesting they were part of Krishna's masterplan... I don't think Duryodana or Dushyasana attained any heavenly abode. Yudhistira was seeing an illusion as though Duryodana was in heaven and the other Pandavas were in hell and being tormented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruzWayne Posted April 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 --So violence and force is necessary for some greater good. Even GOD seems to approve that. --Well, Arjuna was encouraged by Krishna in order to fight for righteousness and holy principles. However, Jesus Christ never attacked anyone and he tought people to turn the other cheek upon being attacked by an enemy. Buda taught to avoid killing even ants or worms, and Mahatma Gandhi defeated the British Empire through non-violence behavior. Therefore, how do you know the difference? That is, how do you know when God wants you to become a soldier like Arjuna or a non-violent person like the followers of Jesus Christ or Buda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 it is not important... chant hare krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2004 Report Share Posted April 10, 2004 Hare Krishna, --Well, Arjuna was encouraged by Krishna in order to fight for righteousness and holy principles. However, Jesus Christ never attacked anyone and he tought people to turn the other cheek upon being attacked by an enemy. Buda taught to avoid killing even ants or worms, and Mahatma Gandhi defeated the British Empire through non-violence behavior. Therefore, how do you know the difference? That is, how do you know when God wants you to become a soldier like Arjuna or a non-violent person like the followers of Jesus Christ or Buda? The point all of them taught is that one should be selfless and do acts out of this knowledge and not out of selfishness. While Lord Buddha and Jesus taught selfless external actions, Lord Krishna taught the wisdom of selfless acts lies not in the action itself, but that it lies in one's mind and state of conscience. This is the speciality of AVATAR of Lord Krishna. He taught us the most secret wisdom, where one could be weiding the sword, but at the same time the person who kills has atmost mercy for the one being killed. This is a very difficult thing for people to digest, but Arjuna did this in Kurukshetra exactly as Lord Krishna advised him. You can find many so called ascetics and priests who do not idulge in any physically harmful acts, but they will be burning inside with lust, greed, anger and every other bad thing you can think of. But it is very difficult to find persons like Arjuna, Hanuman and Bhima. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2004 Report Share Posted April 10, 2004 Umm, actually it is established FROM Mahabharata that Duryodhana and Karna attained the heavenly planets...so there is no doubt about that... As for violence in the real world, the motive has to be purely for the good of society... There are many conditions laid out where one can commit violence, e.g. aggressor, occupier of one's land, stealer of wife etc...this is established in Vedas... However, the violence can only be committed by qualified Kshatriyas, since they are the only ones with sufficient honour and moral quality to kill with mercy... If we look at the Iraq war it fails on all accounts - first of all there was no higher spiritual, or religious purpose...secondly, not all non-violent approaches were exhausted, thridly even if u qualify saddam as an aggressor, proof was not established of his weapons of mass destruction, fourthly, the motive was far from pure - there was the consideration of oil etc...fifth reason: no qualified kshatriyas in the age of kali, sixth reason: a truly religious battle only kills soldiers, whilst Iraq war was killing innocent people... one may argue that it is a cop-out to say there is no qualified kshatriya in this age...well then does that mean you can never use violencein this age? even if one is being attacked? ofcourse there are situations even in age of kali, where war is necessary, but even in that way, USA + GB did not use the codes put in place for international war, however imperfect they may be...the international codes for war are the best we have in the ge of kali compared to the religious codes given in the Vedas...those international codes provided by UN - and US + GB expressly disobeyed the will of the UN and international community so were almost certainly in violation of their 'dharma' or correct duty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruzWayne Posted April 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 --HARE KRISHNA, VERY INTERESTING OPINION... Umm, actually it is established FROM Mahabharata that Duryodhana and Karna attained the heavenly planets...so there is no doubt about that... --I AGREE. As for violence in the real world, the motive has to be purely for the good of society... There are many conditions laid out where one can commit violence, e.g. aggressor, occupier of one's land, stealer of wife etc...this is established in Vedas... However, the violence can only be committed by qualified Kshatriyas, since they are the only ones with sufficient honour and moral quality to kill with mercy... --I GUESS THIS IS THE PROPER ANSWER TO MY QUESTION. THEREFORE, ANY PERSON THAT BELONGS TO THE WARRIOR MENTALITY TYPE IS NOT ALLOWED BY GOD TO USE VIOLENCE IN ORDER TO KILL UNLESS HE BECOMES A QUALIFIED KSHATRIYA FIRST. THIS MEANS THAT ALL OF THE SOLDIERS OF ANY COUNTRY ARE CREATING BAD KARMA FOR THEMSELVES EVERY TIME THEY KILL ON BEHALF OF PATRIOTISM OR ANY ARGUMENT. SAME FOR PLICEMEN OR ANY PERSON KILLING OTHERS. SO WHICH ARE THE STEPS TO BECOME A QUALIFIED KSHATRIYA? I THINK THAT IT IMPLIES FOLLOWING THE 4 REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES AND READING THE BHAGAVAD GITA AND CHANTING AT LEAST 16 ROUNDS OF MAHA-MANTRA DAILY AND SO ON, RIGHT? I ALSO THINK THAT NOWADAYS THERE AREN'T QUALIFIED KSHATRIYAS ANYWHERE. If we look at the Iraq war it fails on all accounts - first of all there was no higher spiritual, or religious purpose...secondly, not all non-violent approaches were exhausted, thridly even if u qualify saddam as an aggressor, proof was not established of his weapons of mass destruction, fourthly, the motive was far from pure - there was the consideration of oil etc...fifth reason: no qualified kshatriyas in the age of kali, sixth reason: a truly religious battle only kills soldiers, whilst Iraq war was killing innocent people... one may argue that it is a cop-out to say there is no qualified kshatriya in this age...well then does that mean you can never use violencein this age? even if one is being attacked? ofcourse there are situations even in age of kali, where war is necessary, but even in that way, USA + GB did not use the codes put in place for international war, however imperfect they may be...the international codes for war are the best we have in the ge of kali compared to the religious codes given in the Vedas...those international codes provided by UN - and US + GB expressly disobeyed the will of the UN and international community so were almost certainly in violation of their 'dharma' or correct duty... --I AGREE. USA + GB + SPAIN ACTED LIKE BARBARIANS RATHER THAN CIVILIZED NATIONS. MOST OF THE CITIZENS IN THESE COUNTRIES ARE CREATING BAD KARMA FOR THEMSELVES BY SUPPORTING THEIR BARBARIAN GOVERNMENTS. HOWEVER, A SMALL PART OF CITIZENS IN THESE 3 COUNTRIES ARE AGAINST THE WAR SO THEY WON'T HAVE THE SAME KARMA AS THE MAJORITY OF THE CITIZENS. FINALLY, DOES SOMEBODY KNOW ALL THE STEPS REQUIRED TO FOLLOW IN ORDER TO BECOME A QUALIFIED KSHATRIYA? HARE KRISHNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 no i don't know the qualified steps needed, yo, the soldiers are not suffering as much bad karma, because they are doing their job...it is the leaders who will suffer the most bad karma...they are not performing their function and therefore violate their dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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