vishnu and krishna

[Guest guest]

praying to either will result in spiritual world.

 

but, some say krishna is supreme, others say vishnu...

 

i see it as a deadlock argument:

 

Krishna followers will say that when Krishna says 'Of the daityas I am Vishnu' that shows that Krishna is superior to Vishnu...

 

Vishnu followers will say that 'Krishna is described as an avatar/incarnation of Vishnu in the first canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam'

 

Is there any way past this deadlock through scripture, or does it just depend on what the Guru says?

[Guest guest]

krishna is a sampoorna avatar of lord visnu,the stithi karaka.before the birth of krishna,lord vishnu appears in front of devaki and vasudev in jail.vishnu's abode is vaikuntha .he left that place to be born as krishna.bhagavatam.

[Guest guest]

Krishna, the Supreme Source of Everything

 

Verses:

 

krsna krsna maha-yogin

sankarsana sanatana

jane vam asya yat saksat

pradhana-purusau parau

 

SYNONYMS

krsna krsna -- O Krsna, Krsna; maha-yogin -- O greatest yogi; sankarsana -- O Balarama; sanatana -- eternal; jane -- I know; vam -- You two; asya -- of this (universe); yat -- which; saksat -- directly; pradhana -- the creative principle of nature; purusau -- and the creating Personality of Godhead; parau -- supreme.

 

TRANSLATION

 

[Vasudeva said:] O Krsna, Krsna, best of yogis, O eternal Sankarsana! I know that You two are personally the source of universal creation and the ingredients of creation as well.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 10.85.3

 

yatra yena yato yasya

yasmai yad yad yatha yada

syad idam bhagavan saksat

pradhana-purusesvarah

 

SYNONYMS

yatra -- in which; yena -- by which; yatah -- from which; yasya -- of which; yasmai -- unto which; yat yat -- whatever; yatha -- however; yada -- whenever; syat -- comes into existence; idam -- this (creation); bhagavan -- the Supreme Lord; saksat -- in His personal presence; pradhana-purusa -- of nature and its creator (Maha-Visnu); isvarah -- the predominator.

 

TRANSLATION

You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who manifest as the Lord of both nature and the creator of nature [Maha-Visnu]. Everything that comes into existence, however and whenever it does so, is created within You, by You, from You, for You and in relation to You.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 10.85.4

 

yuvam na nah sutau saksat

pradhana-purusesvarau

bhu-bhara-ksatra-ksapana

avatirnau tathattha ha

 

SYNONYMS

yuvam -- You two; na -- not; nah -- our; sutau -- sons; saksat -- directly; pradhana-purusa -- of nature and its creator (Maha-Visnu); isvarau -- the supreme controllers; bhu -- of the earth; bhara -- the burden; ksatra -- royalty; ksapane -- for eradicating; avatirnau -- descended; tatha -- so; attha -- You have said; ha -- indeed.

 

TRANSLATION

You are not our sons but the very Lords of both material nature and its creator [Maha-Visnu]. As You Yourself have told us, You have descended to rid the earth of the rulers who are a heavy burden upon her.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 10.85.18

 

Lord Brahma says:

 

Ishvarah paramah krishna

 

sattvam rajas tama iti prakrter gunas tair

yuktah parah purusa eka ihasya dhatte

sthity-adaye hari-virinci-hareti samjnah

sreyamsi tatra khalu sattva-tanor nrnam syuh

 

SYNONYMS

sattvam -- goodness; rajah -- passion; tamah -- the darkness of ignorance; iti -- thus; prakrteh -- of the material nature; gunah -- qualities; taih -- by them; yuktah -- associated with; parah -- transcendental; purusah -- the personality; ekah -- one; iha asya -- of this material world; dhatte -- accepts; sthiti-adaye -- for the matter of creation, maintenance and destruction, etc.; hari -- Visnu, the Personality of Godhead; virinci -- Brahma; hara -- Lord Siva; iti -- thus; samjnah -- different features; sreyamsi -- ultimate benefit; tatra -- therein; khalu -- of course; sattva -- goodness; tanoh -- form; nrnam -- of the human being; syuh -- derived.

 

TRANSLATION

The transcendental Personality of Godhead is indirectly associated with the three modes of material nature, namely passion, goodness and ignorance, and just for the material world's creation, maintenance and destruction He accepts the three qualitative forms of Brahma, Visnu and Siva. Of these three, all human beings can derive ultimate benefit from Visnu, the form of the quality of goodness.

 

PURPORT

That Lord Sri Krsna, by His plenary parts, should be rendered devotional service, as explained above, is confirmed by this statement. Lord Sri Krsna and all His plenary parts are visnu-tattva, or the Lordship of Godhead. From Sri Krsna, the next manifestation is Baladeva. From Baladeva is Sankarsana, from Sankarsana is Narayana, from Narayana there is the second Sankarsana, and from this Sankarsana the Visnu purusa-avataras. The Visnu or the Deity of the quality of goodness in the material world is the purusa-avatara known as Ksirodakasayi Visnu or Paramatma.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.2.23

 

Please read the following verses:

 

indro marudbhir bhagavan

aditya vasavo 'svinau

rbhavo 'ngiraso rudra

visve sadhyas ca devatah

gandharvapsaraso nagah

siddha-carana-guhyakah

rsayah pitaras caiva

sa-vidyadhara-kinnarah

dvarakam upasanjagmuh

sarve krsna-didrksavah

vapusa yena bhagavan

nara-loka-manoramah

yaso vitene lokesu

sarva-loka-malapaham

 

SYNONYMS

indrah -- Lord Indra; marudbhih -- along with the wind-gods; bhagavan -- the powerful controller; adityah -- the twelve principal demigods, all sons of Aditi; vasavah -- the eight Vasu demigods; asvinau -- the two Asvini-kumaras; rbhavah -- the Rbhus; angirasah -- the descendants of Angira Muni; rudrah -- the expansions of Lord Siva; visve sadhyah -- known as Visvedevas and Sadhyas; ca -- also; devatah -- other demigods; gandharva-apsarasah -- the heavenly musicians and dancing girls; nagah -- the celestial snakes; siddha-carana -- the Siddhas and Caranas; guhyakah -- and the hobgoblins; rsayah -- the great sages; pitarah -- the departed forefathers; ca -- also; eva -- indeed; sa -- along with; vidyadhara-kinnarah -- the Vidyadharas and Kinnaras; dvarakam -- to Dvaraka; upasanjagmuh -- they arrived together; sarve -- all of them; krsna-didrksavah -- eager to see Lord Krsna; vapusa -- by the transcendental body; yena -- which; bhagavan -- the Supreme Personality of Godhead; nara-loka -- to all human society; manah-ramah -- enchanting; yasah -- His fame; vitene -- He expanded; lokesu -- throughout all the universe; sarva-loka -- of all planets; mala -- the impurities; apaham -- which eradicates.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The powerful Lord Indra, along with the Maruts, Adityas, Vasus, Asvinis, Rbhus, Angiras, Rudras, Visvedevas, Sadhyas, Gandharvas, Apsaras, Nagas, Siddhas, Caranas, Guhyakas, the great sages and forefathers and the Vidyadharas and Kinnaras, arrived at the city of Dvaraka, hoping to see Lord Krsna. By His transcendental form, Krsna, the Supreme Lord, enchanted all human beings and spread His own fame throughout the worlds. The Lord's glories destroy all contamination within the universe.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.6.2, SB 11.6.3, SB 11.6.4, SB 11.6.2-4

 

tasyam vibhrajamanayam

samrddhayam maharddhibhih

vyacaksatavitrptaksah

krsnam adbhuta-darsanam

 

SYNONYMS

tasyam -- in that (Dvaraka); vibhrajamanayam -- resplendent; samrddhayam -- very rich; maha-rddhibhih -- with great opulences; vyacaksata -- they saw; avitrpta -- unsatisfied; aksah -- whose eyes; krsnam -- Lord Krsna; adbhuta-darsanam -- wonderful to behold.

 

TRANSLATION

In that resplendent city of Dvaraka, rich with all superior opulences, the demigods beheld with unsatiated eyes the wonderful form of Sri Krsna.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.6.5

 

sri-deva ucuh

natah sma te natha padaravindam

buddhindriya-prana-mano-vacobhih

yac cintyate 'ntar hrdi bhava-yuktair

mumuksubhih karma-mayoru-pasat

 

SYNONYMS

sri-devah ucuh -- the demigods said; natah sma -- we are bowed down; te -- Your; natha -- O Lord; .-aravindam -- to the lotus feet; buddhi -- with our intelligence; indriya -- senses; prana -- vital air; manah -- mind; vacobhih -- and words; yat -- which; cintyate -- are meditated upon; antah hrdi -- within the heart; bhava-yuktaih -- who are fixed in yoga practice; mumuksubhih -- by those striving for liberation; karma-maya -- of the reactions of fruitive work; uru-pasat -- from the great bondage.

 

TRANSLATION

The demigods began to speak: Our dear Lord, advanced mystic yogis, striving for liberation from the severe bondage of material work, meditate with great devotion upon Your lotus feet within their hearts. Dedicating our intelligence, senses, vital air, mind and power of speech to Your Lordship, we demigods bow down at Your lotus feet.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.6.7

 

tvattah puman samadhigamya yayasya viryam

dhatte mahantam iva garbham amogha-viryah

so 'yam tayanugata atmana anda-kosam

haimam sasarja bahir avaranair upetam

 

SYNONYMS

tvattah -- from You; puman -- the purusa-avatara, Maha-Visnu; samadhigamya -- obtaining; yaya -- along with which (material nature); asya -- of this creation; viryam -- the potential seed; dhatte -- He impregnates; mahantam -- the mahat-tattva, the raw amalgamation of matter; iva garbham -- like an ordinary fetus; amogha-viryah -- He whose semen is never wasted; sah ayam -- that same (mahat-tattva); taya -- with the material nature; anugatah -- joined; atmanah -- from itself; anda-kosam -- the primeval egg of the universe; haimam -- golden; sasarja -- produced; bahih -- on its outside; avaranaih -- with several coverings; upetam -- endowed.

 

TRANSLATION

My dear Lord, the original purusa-avatara, Maha-Visnu, acquires His creative potency from You. Thus with infallible energy He impregnates material nature, producing the mahat-tattva. Then the mahat-tattva, the amalgamated material energy, endowed with the potency of the Lord, produces from itself the primeval golden egg of the universe, which is covered by various layers of material elements.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.6.16

 

_____________

 

sarge tapo 'ham rsayo nava ye prajesah

sthane 'tha dharma-makha-manv-amaravanisah

ante tv adharma-hara-manyu-vasasuradya

maya-vibhutaya imah puru-sakti-bhajah

 

SYNONYMS

sarge -- in the beginning of the creation; tapah -- penance; aham -- myself; rsayah -- sages; nava -- nine; ye prajesah -- those who would generate; sthane -- in the middle while maintaining the creation; atha -- certainly; dharma -- religion; makha -- Lord Visnu; manu -- the father of mankind; amara -- the demigods deputed to control the affairs of maintenance; avanisah -- and the kings of different planets; ante -- at the end; tu -- but; adharma -- irreligion; hara -- Lord Siva; manyu-vasa -- subjected to anger; asura-adyah -- atheists, the enemies of the devotees; maya -- energy; vibhutayah -- powerful representatives; imah -- all of them; puru-sakti-bhajah -- of the supreme powerful Lord.

 

TRANSLATION

At the beginning of creation there are penance, myself [brahma], and the Prajapatis, the great sages who generate; then, during the maintenance of the creation, there are Lord Visnu, the demigods with controlling powers, and the kings of different planets. But at the end there is irreligion, and then Lord Siva and the atheists full of anger, etc. All of them are different representative manifestations of the energy of the supreme power, the Lord.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 2.7.39

 

Consider the following:

 

rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha

ucchistaj-jajnire sarve divi deva divi-sritah

 

 

 

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens." (Atharva Veda 11.7.24)

 

 

sa brhatim disam anu vyacalat tam itihasas ca puranam ca gathas ca itihasasya ca sa vai puranasya ca gathanam ca narasamsinam ca priyam dhama bhavati ya evam veda

 

 

"He approached the brhati meter, and thus the Itihasas, Puranas, Gathas and Narasamsis became favorable to him. One who knows this verily becomes the beloved abode of the Itihasas, Puranas, Gathas and Narasamsis." (Atharva Veda 15.6.10–12)

 

 

 

evam ime sarva veda nirmitah sa-kalpah sa-rahasyah sa-brahmanah sopanisatkah setihasah sanvakhyatah sa-puranan

 

 

"In this way, all the Vedas were manifested along with the Kalpas, Rahasyas, Brahmanas, Upanisads, Itihasas, Anvakhyatas and the Puranas." (Gopatha Brahmana, purva 2.10)

 

 

nama va rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama-veda atharvanas caturtha itihasa-puranah pancamo vedanam vedah

 

 

"Indeed, Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva are the names of the four Vedas. The Itihasas and Puranas are the fifth Veda." (Kauthumiya Chandogya Upanisad 7.1.4)

 

 

 

asya mahato bhutasya nihsvasitam etad yad rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama

vedo’tharvangirasa itihasah puranam ityadina

 

 

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord." (Madhyandina-sruti, Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10)

 

So the Mahabharata is the fifth veda. Bhagavad-gita is a part of the Mahabharata. I the Bhagavad-gita Krishna says many times that He is the source of everything, Please read the following:

 

4. Krsna is everything

 

 

Lord Krsna strongly and repeatedly declares in the Bhagavad-gita that He is the source of all that be. It follows that God is not only distinct from His creative energies, but He is also one with them since they are eternally resting on Him. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu thus stated that the philosophy of the Gita is acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which means that God is inconceivably one with, and simultaneously different from, His creation. We shall survey Krsna’s statements that He is the source of everything, and then see how this claim is logically linked to the claim that “all things are Krsna.”

 

 

Sri Krsna declares in the Bhagavad-gita: “I am the source of everything, from Me everything emanates” [aham sarvasya prabhavah mattah sarvam pravartate, 10.8]. Similarly, He states: “I am the origin and the annihilation of the entire cosmos” [aham krtsnasya jagatah prabhavah pralayas tatha, 7.6]. Krsna goes on to say, “There is nothing else beyond Me, O Dhana–jaya. All this world rests on Me like pearls strung on a thread” [mattah parantaram nanyat ki–cid asti dhana–jaya, mayi sarvam idam protam sutre mani-gana iva, 7.7]. And as previously quoted, “Neither the hosts of gods nor the great sages know my origin, for in all respects I am the origin of the gods and great sages” (10.2). Krsna is not only the source of the living beings, but of their qualities as well: “Intelligence, knowledge, freedom from confusion [and ten other qualities] in their various types are stages of being of the living entities, and they all come from Me” [buddhir j–anam asammohah. . . bhavanti bhava bhutanam matta eva prthag-vidhah, 10.4–5]. “The seven primordial sages and the four Manus owe their existence to Me, for they are born of My mind” [maharsayah sapta purve catvaro manavas tatha mad-bhava manasa jata. . ., 10.6].

 

 

Let us now examine the tenth chapter of the Bhagavad-gita, wherein Lord Krsna claims (10.20–38) to be the superlative exemplar in seventy categories. Here is a sample verse from that section: “Of the Adityas I am Visnu; of lights I am the radiant sun; of the Maruts I am Marici; of stars I am the moon” [adityanam aham visnor jyotisam ravir amsuman, maricir marutam asmi naksatranam aham sasi, 10.21]. To read monism into all this would be a transparent misreading of the text, for a serious look at the entire chapter makes abundantly clear what Krsna is actually saying.

 

 

First, we notice that most of Krsna’s statements, cited above, to the effect that He is the source of everything come this same tenth chapter, namely verses 10.2, 10.4–5, 10.7, and 10.8. Krsna precedes, then, His identification of Himself with the greatest items of this world by emphasizing that He is the source of all these things. Recall that in the seventh chapter Krsna stated that all the things of this world are His energy, or prakrti (7.4–6) and that He is therefore the source of all that be. That Krsna is referring to the same ontological state of affairs becomes clear when we notice the repeated use here of the word vibhuti, which indicates the following: expansion, manifestation of might, great power, glory, etc. Arjuna introduces this term when he says to Krsna: “You should speak about your own divine glories, those by which You pervade these worlds and abide in them” [vaktum arhasy asesena divya hy atma-vibhutayah, yabhir vibhutibhir lokan imams tvam vyapya tisthasi, 10.16]. The word for “glories” here is vibhutayah, the plural form of vibhuti. But that is just the beginning of the word’s career in the tenth chapter of the Gita. Arjuna then says, “O Janardana (Krsna), please describe again, and extensively, your mystic power and might for, as I listen to this ambrosia, I find no satiation” [vistarenatmano yogam vibhutim ca janardana, bhuyah kathaya trptir hi srnvato nasti me ’mrtam, 10.18]. Again, the word for “might” is vibhutim. Lord Krsna then answers, agreeing to explain His own divine opulences, and again the word vibhutayah is used (10.19). In the very next sloka, the Lord begins His identification of Himself with the seventy categories mentioned above. At the end of the narration, Krsna says, “O burner of the foe, there is no end to My divine powers, and so I have given some example of the extension of My glory” [nanto ’sti mama divyanam vibhutinam parantapa, esa tuddesatah prokto vibhuter vistaro maya, 10.40]. Predictably, the word vibhuti is used twice in this verse and it is repeated in the following verse, wherein Lord Krsna says: “Whatever glorious, beautiful, or mighty thing there may be, understand that it is born of but a spark of My splendor” [yad yad vibhutimat sattvam srimad urjitam eva va, tat tad evavagaccha tvam mama tejo-’msa-sambhavam, 10.41]. Here the word vibuti-mat means “that which possesses vibhuti,” i.e. power, glory, etc.

 

 

By using the word vibhuti no less than six times, Lord Krsna makes clear that He is talking about His powers, His properties, His opulence, etc. In the seventh chapter there are three “identification verses” (7.9–11), which exactly resemble in meter, language, and content the “identification verses” of the tenth chapter (10.20–38). These three verses, as in the tenth chapter, are preceded by an elaborate analysis of how Lord Krsna is the source of all that be, matter and spirit being His superior and inferior potencies. At the conclusion of 7.9–11, Krsna declares that all of these opulences that He has identified Himself with in fact come from Him and are resting in Him, but He is not in them [matta-eveti tan viddhi na tv aham tesu te mayi, 7.12].

 

 

It also bears mentioning that one rightly understands the sense in which Krsna is the source of everything does not, then, consider that all beings are God but, rather, worships the real God with wholehearted devotion: “I am the source of all, from Me all proceeds. Knowing this, the wise worship Me with all their being” [aham sarvsya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate, iti matva bhajante mam budhah bhava-samanvitah, 10.8].

 

 

The purpose of the identification verses is to nourish the devoted theists, as Krsna explains in the verse immediately following the above sloka: “Their minds in Me, their lives dedicated to Me, the devotees enlighten one another, always speaking about Me, and thus they are satisfied and rejoice” [mac-citta mad-gata-prana bodhayantah parasparam, kathayantas ca mam nityam tusyanti ca ramanti ca, 10.9]. Further, Arjuna explicitly states that it is just to facilitate such meditation on the Lord that He is requesting Krsna to describe His glories: “Always thinking of You, O Yogin, how can I know You? In which various forms, my Lord, am I to think about You? Describe to me at length Your glories. . . etc.” [katham vidyam aham yogims tvam sada paricintayan, kesu kesu ca bhavesu cintyo ’si bhagavan maya / vistarenatmano yogam vibhutim ca janardana, bhuyah kathaya. . . 10. 17–18]. There is hardly a doctrine of pantheism in the Bhagavad-gita. The real message is quite clear: surrender to Krsna.

 

 

We find, however, one instance where Lord Krsna says that after many births one in knowledge surrenders to the Lord, realizing that “Vasudeva (Krsna) is everything” [bahunam janmanam ante j–anavan mam prapadyate, vasudevah sarvam iti. . . 7.19]. And there is also an instance where Arjuna tells Krsna, “You cover everything and thus You are everything” [sarvam samapnosi tato ’si sarvam, 11.40]. Still, there is in these cases a devastating evidence against the impersonal, monistic interpretation.

 

 

In the first instance, Lord Krsna’s statement come in the midst of a discussion of four types of people who do not surrender to God and four types who do. Krsna’s point in the verse we have cited (7.19) is that surrender to Him is the symptom and proof that one is actually in knowledge, after many lifetimes of seeking the truth. In fact, the learned one who realizes that Krsna is everything is one of the four classes of men who surrender to the Lord. We have already explained at length the many verses in chapter seven, preceding 7.19, which claim that Krsna is the source of everything and that He is identical with the opulent features of this world in the sense that such items, composed of the inferior modes of nature (sattva, rajas, tamas) are but expansions of the Lord’s power. Now the verses following 7.19 emphasize that it is Krsna alone who is to be worshiped, and no other gods. In other words, the topic under discussion is nothing but surrender to Krsna, and an elaborate ontological explanation in this very chapter has clarified that Krsna is to be identified with the wonderful things of this world only in the sense that such items rest on Him. It was explicitly stated that Krsna is simultaneously aloof, that He is “not in them” [na tv aham tesu te mayi, 7.12].

 

 

Similarly, in the second instance Arjuna declares to Krsna: “You are everything because You entirely possess everything” [sarvam samapnosi tato ’si sarvam, 11.40]. Arjuna’s statement is in response to the cosmic vision of God, in which Krsna devours all the universe and all beings are subdued by the Lord’s omnipotent feature of time. That is, in the context of God’s absolute domination of the subordinate living beings, Arjuna utters his prayer, “You are everything!”

 

 

Still, it is worthwhile to take a closer look at the somewhat complex ontology operating here. Krsna Himself provides us such a focused metaphysical analysis in the ninth chapter of the Gita (9.4–10), where He intentionally speaks in apparently contradictory language: “By Me in My unmanifested form this whole universe is pervaded. All beings are situated in Me, but I am not situated in them. The beings are also not situated in Me. Behold My mystic power. I am the maintainer of all beings; I am not situated in them. My self is the source of the beings. Just as the great wind, which goes everywhere, is situated in the sky, similarly understand that all beings are situated in Me” (9.4–6).

 

 

Lord Krsna makes here several ontological distinctions between Himself, God, and the many living beings like ourselves:

 

 

1. Krsna states that He individually pervades the entire universe. There is no similar claim for any of the individual living beings (9.4).

 

 

2. All beings are situated in Krsna, but He is not in them (9.4).

 

 

3. Krsna is the maintainer of all beings, but not they of Him (9.5).

 

 

4. Krsna is the source (bhavana) of all beings, but not they of Him (9.5).

 

 

5. Lord Krsna compares Himself to the sky, and the living beings to the air that moves within the sky but does not mix with it (9.6)

 

There should be enough proof here to substantiate that Krishna is the origin of Vishnu.

 

Krishnas tu bhagavan svayam (Srimad Bhagavatam)

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Krishna and Visnu are IDENTICAL in every way. It means that it is the SELF SAME Supreme Being with different FORMS. What humans perceive as different is the defect in their knowledge. This defect should not be applied to the LORD.

[Guest guest]

As far as I´m concerned I´m not talking about whether Vishnu and Krishna are identical - but about who is the source of who. Krishna is the source of Vishnu and all other expansion. So says Srimad Bhagavatam.

[Guest guest]

we are not polytheist.. krsna and vishnu are the same person