Same Sex Realtionships are Demonic

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Dear devotee, i think you are not familiar with the actual situation as regards same-sex so it would be better to go through the threads here (and if you want at audarya). The issue is not of bias rather of formal recognition of same-sex couples in the perview of krishna-consciousness which is not possible since in KC marriage is meant for procreation of KC children and nothing else. Sometimes devotees have used the word demonaic, but since there is not a full understanding of this term and so this perception of harshness.

 

Let me try to explain to the best of my ability: The vaishnava religion is defined as the property or inherant function of the soul which is causeless love for God -- the soul has no other function; any love to which even a slightest cause can be attributed, which is not permanent but flickering etc. is not coming from soul but from the mental plane and so is termed "lust" coming from the mode of passion. The activities which are conducive to the attainment of this pure nature are godly or spiritual. The activities in the mode of ignorance are mostly called demonaic which leads to more and more separation from God. When the pure love manifests it is for God and consequently for all beings without distinction; as long as there is a distinction it is only lust.

 

Basic difference of perception is that religion is actually a very serious business though some may think that we can enjoy matter as we like and still attain God. We can atmost get only what we desire; if we have even the slightest desire for something other than God we will get it for we can attain to our eternal nature only when we solely desire God and nothing else, after all we want something of eternal value -- this takes time and perseverance but when we actually take to it seriously it is easy and not difficult at all.

 

There is no bias; these things cannot be "formally" accepted just as sex before marriage, meat-eating etc cannot be. Issue is simple: everyone (even animals can in a limited way) should take to Krishna consciousness but no one who is serious can act as he/she wants after taking to it.

 

 

Is not God addressed as Radha-Kishan?

with a male and female counterpart meaning that God is not male or female.

 

Does not the same apply for the soul? That within, our essense, as a spark of the divine light we are neither male nor female?

 

 

 

This is somewhat more involved. We have to consider the definitions: in the material realm male means having so and so genitals and female means having the other kind -- the distinguishing aspect being that female bears the children. This material realm has been described as a perverted reflection of the spiritual realm, so all the concepts/things that are found here are found in their true form in the spiritual realm. When we consider the spiritual realm then we find that there is no birth and death there for it is an eternal realm. There the original definitions are then different -- Purusha (male) means the energetic and female means the energy. Thus when we speak from the material point of view then the soul is neither male or female, but when we speak from the spiritual point of view then the soul is female being the energy of God. There is only one Purusha. However, when we come to rasa or spiritual relationships then it is different matter altogether. So even from the spiritual viewpoint there are two distinct things: one is from the point of view of tattva or metaphysical truth and other from the point of view of rasa or spiritual relationship with God. Right now i shall only try to explain from the tattva point of view the little i have understood.

 

The situation of Radha-Krishna is slightly complex and i cannot hope to explain it in few words as this post would allow. The infinite energies of God or vishnu-tattva have categorized in three as internal potency, marginal potency (called jiva-shakti) and external potency. Sri Sri Radharani is the embodiment of the internal potency, and is non-different from Krishna. As energy cannot be separated from energetic, there is no meaning to energy without energetic and vice-versa; so Radha-Krishna are One appearing as Two for transcendental pastimes. Factually, the personal energy (or chit-shakti) of Krishna is inseparable under all circumstances but in the lilas they appear in different transcendental bodies. This situation is called acintya-bheda-abheda tattva or inconceivable simultaneously one and different. This principle holds for all the energies of Krishna: marginal potency or jiva-shakti is the infinitesemal jiva souls who again have acintya-bheda-abheda relation. But due to the infinitesemal nature the bheda (difference) aspect is much more prominent and jivas are called vibbhinnamsa (seperated persons); while for the cit-shakti which is the complete infinite energy the bheda aspect is that energy acts in accordance with the desires of the energetic.

 

Actually, the energy and energetic are truly One and inseparable. When we say God or Krishna it includes everything, while when we say Radha-Krishna we also specifically denote the transcendental pastimes and relations. All this has got to do nothing with the concepts of male and female as we understand them in the material realm.

[Guest guest]

same sex relationships are not exclusively demonic.

 

All illicit sex is demonic. If one condemns homosexuality, one must also condemn hetero-sex not for the purpose of procreation.

 

It's all about levels.

 

One should only have sex for procreation.

 

If one cannot do that, have sex only in marriage.

 

If can't do that, have sex only in monogamous relationship.

 

There is a difference between the ideals and the reality that the Age of Kali imposes on people and their practices.

[Guest guest]

atleast heterosexual sex is natural.

 

[Guest guest]

in any case, it is against religious principles unless done in order to procreate

[krist]

karma and the gunas is why some are prone to illicit sex desires. sex for procreation is best. but homosexual sex is definatly demoniac sex. having desires is not bad, it is if your acting on the desires. illisit sex is wrong pure and simple.

why are bisexuals and homosexals and their friends so insistant that we must give them total acceptance? why do i have to tolerate them? why do they get so upset if people despise them? this is human nature to do so and rightly so.

 

i personally can not morally tolerate or accept them in the slightest. where in the scriptures says i have to tolerate or accept them? i understand it says view all in equanimity yes but not tolerance of their demoniac behaviors? but why do all these people insist on it? then they call you hatefull if you don't? i feel no hate toward homosexuals, but if i state that i am not tollerant, i am called a bigot or a hatefull person? it is very sad when you state you find certain behaviors immoral are a bad person? like my grandmother always said if you don't have anything nice to say do not say anything at all.

if i were to do this, i would never speak about non-devotees or the the bad behaviors of devotees and non-devotees alike..

 

 

a few dictionary referances for those that have very low comprehension levels.

equanimity: The quality of being calm and even-tempered; composure.

 

acceptance : The act or process of accepting.

The state of being accepted or acceptable.

Favorable reception; approval.

Belief in something; agreement.

 

tolerance : The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

 

Leeway for variation from a standard.

The permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension, often expressed as a percent.

 

bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

 

"having desires is not bad, it is if your acting on the desires."

 

having desires is bad, just not as bad as acting on them.

 

"why are bisexuals and homosexals and their friends so insistant that we must give them total acceptance?"

 

They should not be given total acceptance. However, there is a case for encouraging those homosexuals who are incapable of controlling their sex urge to stay in a monogamous relationship and practice chanting - and make sure that they pray to Krsna that one day they will be able to renounce homosex altogether. Same goes for heterosex. If a heterosexual cannot limit sex urge to just for procreation, then he should be encouraged to get married and regulate his sexual behaviour. However, who is to decide whether the person is able or unable to control his sex urge? That can only be decided by the person himself. He has to be honest with himself. If he thinks that with the mercy of Krsna he may be able to practice the austerity of foregoing sex, then he should by all means practice celibacy.

 

"why do i have to tolerate them?"

 

you don't have to tolerate them. if you have some hatred for them then admit your hatred. Fine.

 

 

"why do they get so upset if people despise them?"

 

because nobody likes to be despised.

 

 

"this is human nature to do so and rightly so."

 

it is human nature to hate demoniac behaviour. However, it is a devotee's nature to be compassionate to the most fallen. Prabhupada was agianst homosex, but allowed gay uninitiates to practice Krishna Consciousness in a monogamous relationship if they were unable to control their sex urge.

 

 

 

"i personally can not morally tolerate or accept them in the slightest. where in the scriptures says i have to tolerate or accept them? i understand it says view all in equanimity yes but not tolerance of their demoniac behaviors? but why do all these people insist on it? then they call you hatefull if you don't? i feel no hate toward homosexuals, but if i state that i am not tollerant, i am called a bigot or a hatefull person? it is very sad when you state you find certain behaviors immoral are a bad person? like my grandmother always said if you don't have anything nice to say do not say anything at all.

if i were to do this, i would never speak about non-devotees or the the bad behaviors of devotees and non-devotees alike.."

 

 

The fact is you don't have to be tolerant of them. Prabhupada openly expressed his dissgust at homosexual behaviour, but he was still compassionate enough to allow unitiated devotees to live in monogamous homosexual relationship until they were able to renounce properly. Only then could they become initiated.

 

Hare Krishna,

Your Servant.

 

 

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Just want to make sure that i do not misunderstand.

 

Prabhupada openly expressed his dissgust at homosexual behaviour, but he was still compassionate enough to allow unitiated devotees to live in monogamous homosexual relationship until they were able to renounce properly.

 

 

 

Could you give us an example where Srila Prabhupada "allowed" any of his disciple to maintain a "monogamous homosexual relationship". Of course if you mean uninitiated devotees as in congregational members then many of them were even taking meat, intoxicants etc, so what relevance has it to Krishna Consciousness in any case.

[Guest guest]

Haribol Sumedh,

 

yes this is regarded unitiated devotees. Not intitiated disciples. Obviously initiated disciples should not be engaged in illicit sex of any sort, whether homo or hetero.

 

Hare Krishna,

Your Servant.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

... that you were referring to uninitiated devotees, but as i said this has no relevance to KC because they can do anything at their own expense. All i am asking is do you want to support this new phenomenon of "formal recognition" (whatever that means) as brought up recently, by your statements. Also, your statements that Srila Prabhupada allowed uninitiated devotees to indulge in it is wrong; Srila Prabhupada's mission was to bring everybody (irrespective of his/her current habits/condition) to devotional platform but how you interpret that as allowing for it is what i fail to understand. He minced no words in condemning all such activities, and that without following the four regs there was no question of anyone becoming a devotee.

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

 

...on formal recognition, because I have no idea about Prabhupada's view on formal recognition. One thing is for sure, disciples should not be engaged in any illicit sex. I think claim is to formally recognise monagomous relationships amongst homosexuals amongst non-initiated members of ISKCON. Not as vedic marriage of course, but a secular alternative.

 

Hare Krishna,

Your Servant.

[Guest guest]

Hi

I just came a browsing across this site and wanted to say something??!

I am a lesbian and was gifted to be touched by the love of radhakrishna and by a great Mahatma guru who showed me that God/desses greatest gift is love. I feel so lucky to know no matter what i do or who i am that this unconditional love is constantly being poured onto and into me. Having been taking this spiritual journey for many years, and searching to grow towards this love (or God/dess) inside myself, i have seen that my sexuality, and lust itself is the least of my obstacles towards realisation of god/dess within me.

Everything can be a gift or a burden.

I am on reading this thread glad i didnt come to meet RadhaKrishna via Iskcon, not so much for the judgementalness, but the need to constantly intellectually debate.

To Hare Nama, the great gift of kirtan where all differences melt into the gorgeousness of singing God/desses names!!

PS Srila Prabupada loves me!!!!!

[Nrsinghadev]

"i have seen that my sexuality, and lust itself is the least of my obstacles towards realisation of god/dess within me."

 

Wow, now that's a bold statement. Can you please name me a bigger obstacle than lust, since lust is described as being the greatest eternal,sinful and all-devouring enemy of our world and of the living entity?

Any sex-life that is contrary to religious principles (sex not for propogation of children) is simply lust, so if you still engage in it how can you claim it not to be your biggest obstacle? Lust is never a gift and always a burden. Denying it won't make it go away. Just as you can't expect to move forward in a car by simultaneously pressing the gas and brake pedals, you can't expect to progress spiritually by practicing both lusty sex and devotional service at the same time. If you do think you can progress that way, and that it doesn't matter what you do, you are simply fooling yourself. Please study B.G Ch.3 v.36-43 carefully.

 

Haribol!

 

[Guest guest]

That is a very wonderful and positive understanding! It is simply true that God loves everyone. Lord Caitanya's mood in particular was to include everyone in Krsna consciousness regardless of caste or birth.

 

I know many gay and lesbian devotees and in my opinion they are among the nicest I have ever met. Just like heterosexuals, some are celibate, some are in faithful marriage, and others may be in a fallen position--but in any case all are welcome to chant, render humble service and participate in Krsna consciousness.

 

I think devotees who have problems with gays and lesbians are devotees who are too attached and overly-focused on sex. They need to get over this. It is an offense to see other human beings, and especially fellow devotees, only in terms of sex.

 

Hare Krsna!

[Guest guest]

kcp1982 has not been to many lectures it seems, as ALL our sexual lust will deminish by spiritual life, kcp1982 is a little of a biggot, sorry to say but as he chants he will raise hes humbleness and in the future even serve gay devoutees..

[Guest guest]

It is imposible not to harm the feelings of people that think they are gay, by the same rason that the one that robs is not a rober all the time only when they comite the crime, to think that they are gay because they have the behavior and worst, the practiques of same sex relations,that is to put the mind on the body and its desires , to put the mind an trasendental mode is to look, for the noble things , to the inmaterial things love peace , understanding and , off course chanting to weateheaver the name of your God hapen to be , the purpouse off religion is to make you see that , the phisical body is to serve the lord and sacrifice the bad inclinations, whith the sublime . dead and renewal off the spiritual mind.

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

 

first off, I'm fine with gay people, I have some gay friends and I'm not disgusted by them, I just view them like I view any other man or woman. But for the love of God, please ISKCON or any Krishna affiliated society, don't get all forthcoming and start allowing gay marriages under the Vedic system, because that would really corrupt the integrity of the Vedic message, and turn into a guise this Krishna consciousness. That is not the way, that is not what being all-loving and a friend to all is about.

 

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu set the example when Chota Haridasa only for one moment cast a lustful glance at a woman. He expelled him and never allowed him back in, and when Chota Haridasa finally killed himself in misery, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu approved of it.

 

Prabhupada was also strong in this message and insisted that we should not adapt to those outside of Krishna consciousness, but rather let them adapt to us. If we do allow these sort of changes to be made KC will become tainted and bogus sooner or later (which is why it is such an offense that the latest edition of Prabhupada commentary to the Gita has been edited to appease today's crowd, but that's a whole noew chapter).

 

Hare Krishna!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

 

more so, why do you think they call our guru's paramahamsa's, or best of the swans. It is because just like a swan is able to distill milk from water, the guru is able to distill the true message from the vedas. And guru says no illicit sex, so that definitely means no gay marriage. If it is allowed it ceases to be bonafide KC and it becomes a guise of KC. Please don't get caught by the flowery language of the Vedas, they have rules for everything but that doesn't mean it is okay to include in KC.

 

Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

There is no function in gay marriage. The function of marriage is to have a family life where you procreate and teach your offspring God consciousness. This function is obviously not possible in gay marriage. The function of marriage is also not to ensure monogamy, as there are innumerable examples that show and proof the ineffectiveness of this. So therefore there is no valid or vedic reason for gay couples to marry as it's completely useless.

 

Haribol!

[Guest guest]

HARE KRISHNA, HARE RAM,,,

society tells ppl its ok to eat meat, gamble, have sex,,, and now to be gay!!!!!

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY,,,,,

ONLY KRISHNA.

ranga da chunaria....all glories to sri krishna.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna! I definitely think the Hare Krishna movement should start recognizing gay marriages and for many reasons. First of all, gay unions are mentioned to have existed during Vedic times. Secondly, not everyone can follow lifelong celibacy or should be forced to when they cannot. Everyone requires the choice of marriage. According to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, even outcasts should be allowed to marry, and devotees should marry not to beget children but to center their lives together on Krsna. Afterall, even sterile couples may require love, companionship and marriage.

 

Also, the gay couples do not need to live in the temple but can live outside, attend temple functions and render humble services to Krsna. There is a place for all persons in Krsna consciousness--this is the message of Lord Caitanya.

[Guest guest]

who is sam what does it all mean.just kidding i figured you might be too uptight and needed a joke based upon your poor spelling.actually in hinduism there is a third gender.there is man and woman and a third gender this includes gays and lesbians.god forbid gays want to be faithfull to thier loved ones.it is ridiculous for you to use krishna con. to conclude that anything is demoniac.it is maya to conclude anything without proper basis on scripture.study on the third gender and write back....you know its believed that many homophobes are in the closet themselves come out friend krishna will surely understand

[Guest guest]

>"The function of marriage is to have a family life where you procreate and teach your offspring God consciousness."

 

This would mean that non-fertile people (people with physiological fertility problems and elderly people) should not be allowed to marry. Very materialistic, almost nazi view of the world.

 

>"The function of marriage is also not to ensure monogamy, as there are innumerable examples that show and proof the ineffectiveness of this."

 

According to this, no one should take the vows of marriage too seriously, since in any case the spouses are going to cheat each other. Very sad, bitter view of life.

 

How about companionship, wanting to share one's life with another, committing to the relationship both emotionally and legally, as well as publicly? Aren't those good enough reasons for people to marry? Marriage, in essence, is a public promise to stay together and support each other through thick and thin. Also, gay-couples wanting to, say, buy a house together, will find it easier to complete all legal paper-work when married. Tax-laws, etc. are different for married couples than for two single individuals.

[Guest guest]

When one resorts to name-calling and belittlement it is always a clear sign of a defeat one is unwilling to admit.

I have yet to see one good reason to allow gay marriages in Krishna Consciousness. The arguments you have brought up are all rather limp. Companionship, sharing one's life with another, all these things can be done without marriage.

 

>"The function of marriage is also not to ensure monogamy, as there are innumerable examples that show and proof the ineffectiveness of this."

 

The reason I said this was because somewhere up this thread someone made the comment that allowing gays to marry would ensure their monogamous relationships, which is simply a false statement.

 

>"The function of marriage is to have a family life where you procreate and teach your offspring God consciousness."

 

>"This would mean that non-fertile people (people with physiological fertility problems and elderly people) should not be allowed to marry. Very materialistic, almost nazi view of the world."

 

Other than that it will bring economical benefits for those people there would be no real point to that marriage other than that it says "oh I love you so much.", which by the way is also a material misconception.

 

Another thing is that the Vedas are constantly brought up when concerning this issue. The Vedas give rules and guides to follow for all sorts of people ,and for all different kind of classes, so they can get to God consciousness from their level. As such there are guidelines for eating meat in the Vedas as well. So do you think we should allow meateating in KC as well because hey it's in the Vedas so we should allow it.

 

Once again just listen to the conclusion of the Vedas through the vessel that is sri Guru, rather than sifting through it yourself. All of these sort of issues are bound to the material plane so why do you insist on attaching it to something transcendental?

 

It's simple and not discriminative:

A blind man may want to drive a car, but he is stopped, he is not allowed. Now this man may get very angry and feels discriminated but is that really fair of him?

 

Krishna Consciousness is the highest standard of living,purely transcendental, so don't try to bring it down to our contaminated standard by allowing and including all sorts of nonsense. What's next? legalize abortion and the Krishna-feminist organization?

Please, rather just let the standard intact and rise to it.

 

Hare Krishna!

 

[Guest guest]

 

After reading all of the posts on this thread, it seems to me the general conclusion is that gay marriage should be acknowledged with Krsna consciousness. This seems fair, since not everyone can follow lifelong celibacy. We should support celibacy for those who can follow, but otherwise we should support faithfulness in marriage. And of course, that would include gay couples.

 

[Guest guest]

After reading your post, i thought i was at the catholic website where there is no understing,acceptance or toloration of people who have chosen to live like this, so i think you should get out of the hare krishna movement and go to the catholics where you will find poeple just like you-NARROW MINDED