personalism and impersonalism

[Guest guest]

hare krsna

i would like to ask, which is greater impersonalism or personalism? i know the hinduism says all gods are equal and that they are all forms of parabrahma. but then i came to hare krsnas who say that no both aspects occur simultaneously and that krsna is supreme. parabrahm being his bodily effulgance and that people who worship that will merge into this light after death. personalism is very attracted and a way to get very close and devotional to the god. therefore it would lead to liberation. in hinduism we should have devotion to a god so that we merge into god -parabrahma at death, that god being a form of this light. however hare krsnas say that krsna is supreme. so does this mean that hindus are wrong in worshipping the 'absolute formless blissful' aspect that is parabrahm through various gods and goddesses???

hare krsna

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

The hare krishnas follow the Vedic scriptures properly and completely. The Hindus do not, they deviate from the scriptures.

 

The main scripture of the Vedic religion is the Bhagavad-gita and Lord krishna makes it clear that he is the supreme and he also proved it 5000 years when he appeared. He also makes it clear that only he should be worshipped and not anyone else.

 

Read 'Why Krishna is God' at

www.gitamrta.org/god.htm

 

Most Hindus deviate from the Vedic scriptures and worship all sorts of beings as God (Shiva, Swaminarayan, Sai Baba, Kali etc..). That's why this age is called Kali Yuga, the age of ignorance and irreligion. Until 5000 years ago, there was only one religion in the whole world, the Vedic religion. Then due to the ignorance, the humans started to deviate and create other religions and beliefs. Srila Prabhupada used to call most so-called Hindu Gurus, fools and raskals. As they were not following the Vedic scriptures and concocting their own Gods.

 

“I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandshire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable OM. I am also the Rig, the Sama and the Yajur Vedas”. (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita. 9.17)

 

“The whole cosmic order is under me. Under my will it is automatically manifested again and again, and under my will it is annihilated at the end.” (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita. 9.8)

 

"I am the Supersoul, seated in the hearts of all living entities. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings."

 

(Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 10.20)

 

"One can understand me as I am, as the supreme personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when, by such devotion, one is fully conscious of me, one can enter into the kingdom of God." (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 18.55)

 

"Fools deride me when I descend in the human form. They do not know my transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be."

 

(Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 9.11)

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

Do you have Bhagwad Gita As It Is by H.D.Grace Srila Prabhupad. If you don't I humbly request you to get one from the nearest Hare Krishna Mandir or order from Krishna.com

Please go to Chapter 12 verse 1 and you will find Arjun asked a very similer question from Lord Krishna. And in the next verse (12.2) Lord Krishna replied very nicely,

Sri- Bhagavan Uvacha

"mayy avesya mano ye mam,nity-yukta upasate,

sraddhaya parayopetas,te me yuktatama matah"

Tranaselation by H.D.Grace Srila Prabhupad,

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said:Those who fix their

mind on my Personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great transedental faith are considered by Me to be the most perfect.

Please also read 12.3-4,12.5 If you can read the whole 12th. chapter. I assure you it will purify your heart and you will attain Lord Krishna's mecy.

Thank you and Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

Do I have the Bhagavad-gita as it is?

 

Visit my site and listen to Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita as it is in Sanskrit, English, Hindi, Arabic, and Spanish, free of charge.

 

www.gitamrta.org

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

 

i would like to ask, which is greater impersonalism or personalism?

 

 

 

The greater problem is the theory of the advaita impersonalists of today who confuse everyone by saying that everybody is God. They accept Bhagavad-Gita yet interpret and twist it in accordance with their philosophy, or in other words use the Vedic scriptures as tools to propagate their theories. Other devotees have given nice answers; i will add one more from Bhagavad-Gita which is universally accepted as the cream of all upanishads (and thus of Vedic philosophy):

 

Bhagavad-Gita 14.27

 

brahmano hi pratisthaham

amrtasyavyayasya ca

sasvatasya ca dharmasya

sukhasyaikantikasya ca

 

SYNONYMS

brahmanah--of the impersonal brahmajyoti; hi--certainly; pratistha--the rest; aham--I am; amrtasya--of the immortal; avyayasya--of the imperishable; ca--also; sasvatasya--of the eternal; ca--and; dharmasya--of the constitutional position; sukhasya--happiness; aikantikasya--ultimate; ca--also.

 

TRANSLATION

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.

 

 

 

You said:

 

i know the hinduism says all gods are equal and that they are all forms of parabrahma.

 

 

 

This is not true at all. Hinduism is a loose term for various religious-philosophical systems including Vaishnavas, Shaivas, Shaktas, Advaitins and other hodge-podge ones. Vaishnavas (which includes Hare Krishnas) do not say that all gods are equal, nor do most of Shaivas/Shaktas. Advaitins are a different breed who say that all are equal or that everybody is God. There are five accepted jagad-guru acharyas in (relatively recent) india, four (Acharya Madhva, Ramanujacharya, Nimbarkacharya, Vishnuswami) of whom are vaishnava acharyas and Shankaracharya is proponent of advaita.

 

 

parabrahm being his bodily effulgance and that people who worship that will merge into this light after death.

...

however hare krsnas say that krsna is supreme. so does this mean that hindus are wrong in worshipping the 'absolute formless blissful' aspect that is parabrahm through various gods and goddesses???

 

 

 

His bodily effulgence is not parabrahm rather brahm. Parabrahm refers to the Supreme Brahm or the source of Brahm who is Krishna. As for wrong and right the only thing that i would say is that the procedure of panchopasana is not to be found in Vedic texts anywhere and demigod worship does not lead to the ultimate benefit. Firstly by meditation on the formless aspect one can reach atmost to a certain point, and even merging into the Brahm is possible only by devotional service (i.e. mercy of God since all our own efforts properly fall in the material realm only and transcending that requires one who belongs to the spiritual realm). Moreover, Krishna says that those who worship demigods worship Him indirectly and improperly; improper because the worshipper does not gain anything substantial of eternal value.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna Kamlesh Prabhu,

Sorry Prabhuji I didn't ask you "Do You have BGAII" I was responding to the first person who was asking question about personalism and Impersonalism. By the way I love your website and I listen to Bhagwad Gita all the time on your website also I have reffered your website to a lot of people. Everybody appreciate so much your great service of spreading the true and unadulterated message of Lord Sri Krishna. Thanks a lot,

 

[Guest guest]

Dear sumedh

thanks for this info. it cleared up a lot of doubts that people say that they are god - advaitists.

hare krsnas do say that people are a part and parcel of god as the same in quality but not in quantity. therfore when we acheive vaikuntha goloka we can have loving pastimes with krsna?

hare krsna

[sumedh]

Dear guest

Hare Krishna

please accept my dandavat pranam

 

I apologize for this quite long post.

 

therfore when we acheive vaikuntha goloka we can have loving pastimes with krsna?

 

 

 

In fact a jiva has no job other than to render loving devotional service by participation in His pastimes in the true constitutional position.

 

Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad-Gita

Bhagavad-Gita 18.54-55

 

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

 

bhaktya mam abhijanati

yavan yas casmi tattvatah

tato mam tattvato jnatva

visate tad-anantaram

 

One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me. One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.

 

 

 

Bhagavad-Gita 6.47

 

yoginam api sarvesam

mad-gatenantar-atmana

sraddhavan bhajate yo mam

sa me yuktatamo matah

 

And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.

 

 

 

Please also read the purport here: http://asitis.com/6/47.html

 

The Srimad-Bhagavatam is even more explicit

Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.12.8-9

 

kevalena hi bhavena gopyo gavo naga mrgah ye 'nye mudha-dhiyo nagah

siddha mam iyur anjasa

 

yam na yogena sankhyena dana-vrata-tapo-'dhvaraih

vyakhya-svadhyaya-sannyasaih prapnuyad yatnavan api

 

The inhabitants of Vrndavana, including the gopis, cows, unmoving creatures such as the twin arjuna trees, animals, living entities with stunted consciousness such as bushes and thickets, and snakes such as Kaliya, all achieved the perfection of life by unalloyed love for Me and thus very easily achieved Me.

 

Even though one engages with great endeavor in the mystic yoga system, philosophical speculation, charity, vows, penances, ritualistic sacrifices, teaching of Vedic mantras to others, personal study of the Vedas, or the renounced order of life, still one cannot achieve Me.

 

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.2.32-33

 

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

 

O lotus-eyed Lord! Those who proudly think that they are liberated but do not render devotional service unto you certainly have impure intelligence. Although they perform severe austerities and penance, and rise up to a high spiritual position, they fall down again because they have no respect for devotional service to your lotus feet.

 

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.14.4

 

sreyah-srtim bhaktim udasya te vibhoklisyanti ye

kevala-bodha-labdhayetesam asau klesala eva sisyatenanyad

yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam

 

To achieve understanding, such persons work very hard and undergo severe austerities, but their hard labor and austerities themselves are their only achievement, for they do not actually achieve the real goal of life.

 

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.29.13

 

salokya-sarsti-samipya-

sarupyaikatvam apy uta

diyamanam na grhnanti

vina mat-sevanam janah

 

A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation--salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

 

 

Vedanta-Sutra 4.4.13-14

 

The liberated soul is an enjoyer. In sayujya-mukti, the soul enjoys transcendental bliss without a spiritual body like a sleeping person enjoys dreams. The bliss of personal liberation, in which the soul manifests a spiritual body, is far greater. The desire of the liberated soul to enjoy is not materially motivated, for his pleasure is the mercy of the Supreme Lord.

 

 

 

Liberation is just a by-product of prema-bhakti, and a desire for liberation does get in the way of cultivating prema-bhakti or pure unadulterated love for God.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna,

i have not read the purans but the texts i have read about various gods are always saying that this god is greatest. eg Ganesh mahima says ganesh is supreme. shiv tales saying shiva is supreme. why is this so? shouldn't these scriptures say that krsna is supreme not brahman? if this is the case then is the author wrong?

[sumedh]

Dear guest

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Yes, it is confusing if one just makes a scholastic study of scriptures and so becoming connected to a bona-fide disciplic succession through a Spiritual Master is the only way.

 

 

shouldn't these scriptures say that krsna is supreme not brahman?

 

 

 

Brahman is the formless aspect of Krishna and non-different from Him (and still different at the same time). In summary the Brahman of shruti shastras is Krishna/Vishnu and this is the opinion of all the vaishnava acharyas who have established this conclusion using the shastras (aside: if you research the philosophical debates of vaishnavas and advaitins you will find that in almost all the debates since Madhvacharya the bhagavata-siddhanta has been established as the correct one); but just being victorious in debates does not amount to much and the real proof is in seeing the results for oneself by following it. Our acharyas explain the Brahman realization as the first level, the Paramatma realization as the second and realizing the Primal Purusha as the final stage.

 

 

shiv tales saying shiva is supreme. why is this so?

 

 

 

In the same way we can find the scriptures also say in some places that the Guru is directly Parabrahman. If we accept such statements without understanding the tattva or metaphysical truth and the full context we will ever be confused. If we just take to scholarly knowledge we will find many contradictions, because of the nature of the Transcendental realm. The Guru is non-different from Krishna because he is a transparent via-medium of God, but at the same time he is not God and so is different. A fully surrendered soul is considered included in vishnu-tattva or God (or part of God) but not God; this is because being a fully surrendered soul all his desires/actions are actually Krishna's or in other words he is as good as God but that does not mean he becomes vishnu-tattva from jiva-tattva.

 

The gaudiya vaishnava position on this issue has been summarized here:

http://www.gosai.com/dvaita/madhvacarya/srimad-bhagavatam.html

 

Please read it and if you have any questions i would be happy to help to my capacity.

 

Actually it was for this reason (of the grand confusion in the age of kali) that Lord Krishna delivered Srimad Bhagavad Gita and is accepted as the final Vedic conclusions by all acharyas include Acharya Shankara.

[Guest guest]

thank you sumedh, this cleared a lot of doubts as 'modern hinduism' states that all gods are one and equal. i now know this to be incorrect. and krsna as the supreme and personal godhead.

hare krsna!

ps, however, i do recall something about prabhupad saying that allah jehova are god and the same. we just call them by diff names and the kc way is just how to love this god.

[sumedh]

Dear guest

please accept my dandavats

 

 

'modern hinduism' states that all gods are one and equal

 

 

 

This is the view of the new breed who are something of Advaita, something of bhakti from vaishnava etc. even though philosophically and rationally the different principles contradict each other. For example Advaita siddhanta says that everyone is God or Brahman, Ishvara is "lesser" than Brahman for He is subject to Mahamaya, everything is a transformation of Brahman and mukti is merging in Brahman and becoming one with Brahman (and thus higher than Ishvara who is still subject to Maya); their conception of God as Brahman has no special features like Supreme Controller, Supreme opulences, achintya shakti etc. The vaishnava siddhanta holds that Lord Vishnu is the ParaBrahman from whom Brahman emanates (as i said before, sometimes the shruti shastras use the term Brahman just like we use the general term God, and other times refer to His formless aspect Brahmajyoti) who can never be possibly subject to Maya, has achintya shakti (inconceivable energy), the jivas are His infinitesemal portions and can never become the Whole, everything is a transformation of Lord's shakti who Himself ever remains unchanged, pure bhakti is the true eternal position of the jiva (or his sanatana-dharma), mukti is not possible without devotional service and is a natural consequence of bhakti, the jivas participate in the eternally blissful pastimes of the Lord after attaining their pure nature (of bhakti) etc. Most shaivas say that Lord Shiva is Supreme who is ParaBrahman, who is with material shakti Durga, and the aim is becoming one with Shiva (so this is similar to Advaita after that). Similarly Shaktas say that Shakti is the source of everything including Shiva/Vishnu, give a higher position to Shiva than Vishnu and that the aim is again becoming one with shiva-shakti. However the shaivas and shaktas are not considered by serious students of Vedas as they have never established their siddhanta on the basis of Vedic scriptures and have never engaged in philosophical debates to come under any kind of scrutiny. Now some persons mix and match these contradictory principles and say that all gods are different aspects of Brahman, that merging into Brahman is the position attained by both bhakti (???) or jnana or any-other-path-one-can-speculate-in-his-wildest-dreams-which-remotely-resembles-some-form-of-sadhana; some praise bhakti but consider it temporary (or preliminary stage), praise jnana, or kundalini, ... but most of such persons agree that their end results are the same. In other words they contradict both principles (vaishnava and advaita) in the name of trying to super-reconcile everything; such persons are properly termed as Neo-Vedantists or Neo-Advaitins.

 

The simple point is that the demigods are described in the Vedic literatures like Vedas, Puraanas and these never say that the demigods are Supreme Lord, or that demigods are equal.

 

 

i do recall something about prabhupad saying that allah jehova are god and the same.

 

 

 

Anyone who refers to a Being who is the Greatest of all, who has created everything, etc. is actually referring to Krishna/God albeit in vague terms. On the other hand the demigods like Ganesha, Shiva, Surya etc. described in the Vedas are personalities distinct from God. If one thinks that Ganesha is the Supreme Lord and worships him as such then it is only his ignorance since Ganesha is not the Supreme Lord.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

thanks again for the wonderful info.

clearing up a lot of misconceptions for me!