Help me out here: Unsatisfying answers to core questions

[Guest guest]

I'm asking these questions because I can't stand it that atheists always seem to win when digging deeper into these sort of questions and I'm really annoyed at not having solid answers to them. Because if in the end you come to the conclusion that "I'm not sure" the entire fundament for your argument is popped like a bubble.

 

So Krishna created this material world in order to feel complete, and we, the foolish souls have been drawn by it because some way or other we desired to lord it over nature. Why did we desire this when we had eternally blissful bodies that were situated in ever increasing extasy? We do not know,we have forgotten, we can't explain. That bothers me, because now if I try to explain our philosophy to somebody, this can easily be questioned and turned into a very weak argument. I know, we are the cause of our own suffering, but still I ask why do we suffer? If Krishna really loves and cares for us so much, why didn't He create a world for us that had none of these threefold miseries of disease old-age and death?

 

Another question that never got a satisfying answer is the dinosaurs issue. They existed 65million years ago. So they excavate their fossils, 65 million years means alot of cycles of yuga's came and went, roughly 16? So humans existed at that time but why no bones of mankind buried along with the dinosaur remains? In this crippled age of Kali we construct so much rubbish on and in this earth it is bound to leave some mark somewhere that will last millions of years, so why did this not happen in other Kali yuga's? Why can't we find anything indicative of human civilization from the time of the dinosaurs or even 10 million years after?

 

So God displays His pastimes and chops some guy's head of because He wanted the jewel, or some divine incarnation goes hunting deer. Sitting on deerskin, or Shiva dressed in tigerskin. Or cows and horses that are sacrificed. Sure this was all transcendental pastime and only the bodies were destroyed ,the souls got promoted to heavenly planets or other blissfulness. And I understand how everything we do is already available in God Himself and that the difference is that we only do it pervertedly (a thieving criminal vs. Krishna butterthief).

But,we are to oblige by the rules and it seems that only to rub it in, Krishna comes and does everything we aren't allowed to do, and then we get punished by karmic law if we do it anyway.God, by His actions, sets the example for us of how to live. Similarly, the biblical God struck me as jealous,narrow-minded and not caring and loving at all,so I really shunned away from this vengeful and spiteful image, thinking God cannot be like that. But He can, because He possesses all qualities. So knowing that people will follow in God's footsteps, why did He not set the right example, and the right example only for man to follow? i.e: no killing whatsoever, showing love and respect to others etc. etc.? Why did He have to add all these confusing and contradicting factors to it that make you doubt everything?

 

Please help this foolish soul out,

If you know of any satisfying answers by renowned spiritual masters, please feel free to quote plus source.

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

Humans have existed for 2 billion years in the current cycle. So have so many beasts including dinasaurs.

 

There is evidence to prove that man existed millions of years ago. But keep in mind that the atheists and ignorant irreligious people hold back anyhting that they do not understand.

 

Knowledge Filtering:

 

For example the Christian scriptures state that Adam and Eve were the first humans and they lived 6000 years ago. Thus if a Christian finds bones of man dating more than 6000 years, he will immediately dismiss it and destroy or hide the evidence.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna

please accept my dandavat pranams

 

 

 

So Krishna created this material world in order to feel complete

 

 

 

This may not be the correct way to put it. The material energy is an intrinsic part of the Lord. It is like saying "why is God Omnipotent?" -- well the answer is that it is His nature. Similarly the jiva souls and the material energy are an intrinsic part of the Absolute Truth, or in other words they are also (part of) Absolute Truth and are eternally true. When we put it more "sweetly" then we say that these are lilamayi attributes of the Lord.

 

 

 

, and we, the foolish souls have been drawn by it because some way or other we desired to lord it over nature. Why did we desire this when we had eternally blissful bodies that were situated in ever increasing extasy? We do not know,we have forgotten, we can't explain. That bothers me, because now if I try to explain our philosophy to somebody, this can easily be questioned and turned into a very weak argument.

 

 

 

That's not an entirely correct description of the gaudiya siddhanta. We have eternally blissful spiritual forms but we have not attained them yet or we have never been in svarupa-siddhi.

 

From Srila Prabhupada's letter to Jagadisa Maharaja in 1970:

 

 

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna?

 

Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature?

 

Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly like deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs.

 

 

 

So here Srila Prabhupada says that the jivas were in a susupti state before becoming involved in material realm.

 

Krsna Book, Chapter 28

 

 

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly.

 

 

 

So the souls have the first opportunity to associate personally with Krsna. Before that the association of baddha-jivas was as described before with (Krsna as) Mahavishnu since the jivas in the material worlds are coming from Lord Mahavishnu.

 

You said:

 

 

I know, we are the cause of our own suffering, but still I ask why do we suffer? If Krishna really loves and cares for us so much, why didn't He create a world for us that had none of these threefold miseries of disease old-age and death?

 

 

 

We suffer because of our past deeds/misdeeds. Initially we made the mistake of choosing material worlds instead of the spiritual world, and despite the Lord trying to attract everyone to Himself by performing various pastimes since time immemorial we have stuck to our guns.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur answers this question as follows in Jaiva-Dharma Chapter 16:

 

 

Vrajanatha: Prabhu, I understand that this marginal position is situated in tatastha-svabhava, or junction, of the spiritual and material worlds. Why is it that some jivas go from there to the material world, while others go to the spiritual world?

 

Babaji: Krsna's qualities are also present in the jivas, but only in a minute quantity. Krsna is supremely independent, so the desire to be independent is eternally present in the jivas as well. When the jiva uses his independence correctly, he remains disposed towards Krsna, but when he misuses it, he becomes vimukha (indifferent) to Him. It is just this indifference that gives rise to the desire in the jiva's heart to enjoy maya. Because of the desire to enjoy maya, he develops the false ego that he can enjoy material sense gratification, and then the five types of ignorance ­ tamas (not knowing anything about the spirit soul), moha (the illusion of the bodily concept of life), maha-moha (madness for material enjoyment), tamisra (forgetfulness of one's constitutional position due to anger or envy) and andha-tamisra (considering death to be the ultimate end) ­ cover his pure, atomic nature. Our liberation or subjugation simply depends on whether we use our minute independence properly, or misuse it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: Why must the jivas suffer for the sake of Bhagavan's pastimes?

 

Babaji: The jivas possess some independence. This is actually a sign of Bhagavan's special mercy upon them. Inert objects are insignificant and worthless because they have no such independent desire. The jiva has attained sovereignty of the inert world only because of his independent desire. Misery and happiness are conditions of the mind. Thus what we may consider misery is happiness for one engrossed in it. Since all varieties of material sense gratification finally result in nothing but misery, a materialistic person only achieves suffering. When that suffering becomes excessive, it gives rise to a search for happiness. From that desire, discrimination arises, and from discrimination, the tendency for inquiry is born. As a result of this, one attains sat-sanga (the association of saintly people), whereupon sraddha develops. When sraddha is born, the jiva ascends to a higher stage, namely the path of bhakti.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: What harm would there have been if the jiva had not been given independent desire? Krsna is omniscient, and He gave this independence to the jivas, even though He knew that they would suffer on account of it, so isn't He responsible for the jiva's suffering?

 

Babaji: Independence is a precious jewel, in the absence of which inert objects are insignificant and worthless. If the jiva had not received independence, he would also have become as insignificant and worthless as the material objects. The jiva is an atomic, spiritual entity, so he must certainly have all the qualities of spiritual objects. The only difference is that Bhagavan, who is the complete spiritual object, possesses all these qualities in full, whereas the jiva only has them to a very minute degree. Independence is a distinctive quality of the spiritual object, and an object's inherent quality cannot be separated from the object itself. Consequently, the jiva also has this quality of independence, but only to a very minute degree, because he is atomic. It is only because of this independence that the jiva is the supreme object in the material world, and the lord of creation.

The independent jiva is a beloved servant of Krsna, and thus Krsna is kind and compassionate towards him. Seeing the misfortune of the jiva, as he misuses his independence and becomes attached to maya, He chases after him, weeping and weeping, and appears in the material world to deliver him. Sri Krsna, the ocean of compassion, His heart melting with mercy for the jivas, His acintya-lila in the material world, thinking that His appearance will enable the jiva to see His nectarean pastimes. However, the jiva does not understand the truth about Krsna's pastimes, even after being showered by so much mercy, so Krsna then descends in Sri Navadvipa in the form of guru. He personally describes the supreme process of chanting His name, form, qualities and pastimes, and personally instructs and inspires the jivas to take to this path by practicing it Himself. Baba, how can you accuse Krsna of being at fault in any way when He is so merciful? His mercy is unlimited, but our misfortune is lamentable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: Why have you said that karma is beginningless?

 

Babaji: The root of all karma is the desire to perform karma, and the root cause of this desire is avidyä (ignorance). Avidya is forgetfulness of the truth: "I am an eternal servant of Krsna," and it does not have its origin in mundane time. Rather, it originates in the tatastha junction of the spiritual and material worlds. That is

why karma does not have its beginning in mundane time, and is therefore called beginningless.

 

 

 

 

In reply to "If Krishna really loves and cares for us so much, why didn't He create a world for us that had none of these threefold miseries of disease old-age and death?" i would say that the real reason for our suffering is that we are not situated in our true consititutional position. We desired to be independent of the Lord and there is no rasa without the Lord and therefore we suffer. If the Lord had indeed created such a world where there would be no suffering then it would have been most unfortunate because then we would never ever had attained our constitutional position. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says the following in Jaiva-Dharma:

 

 

 

Gold is purified by heating and hammering. Being indifferent to Krsna, the jiva has become impure through engaging in mundane sense gratification. Therefore, he must be purified by being beaten with the hammers of misery on the anvil of this material world. By this process, the misery of the jivas averse to Krsna finally culminates in happiness. Suffering is therefore just a sign of Bhagavan's mercy. That is why far sighted people see the suffering of jivas in Krsna's pastimes as auspicious, though the near sighted can only see it as an inauspicious source of misery.

...

It is natural to experience some suffering when one is controlled by the desire of the agent. However, if that suffering brings pleasure in the end, it is not true suffering. How can you call it suffering? The so-called suffering that one undergoes in order to nourish and support Krsna's pastimes is actually a source of delight. The jiva's independent desire has caused him to abandon the pleasure of serving Krsna, and instead accept suffering in maya. This is the jiva's fault, not Krsna's.

 

 

 

And finally:

 

 

Vrajanatha: Is maya-sakti the cause of our misfortune then? Would the jivas have had to suffer like this if the omnipotent and omniscient Sri Krsna had kept maya away from them?

Babaji: Maya is a reflected transformation of Krsna's internal potency, svarupa-sakti, and it is like a fiery furnace where the jivas who are not qualified for Krsna's seva are chastized and made fit for the spiritual world. Maya is Krsna's maidservant. In order to purify the jivas who have turned against Krsna, she punishes them, gives appropriate therapy, and purifies them. The infinitesimal jiva has forgotten that he is an eternal servant of Krsna, and for this offense, maya, taking the form of a witch, punishes him. This material world is like a jail, and maya is the jailer who imprisons the estranged jivas and punishes them. A king constructs a prison for the benefit of his subjects, and in the same way, Bhagavan has shown His immense mercy towards the jivas by making this prison-like material world and appointing maya as its custodian.

 

 

 

If it were not so then we would have remained bereft of true spiritual life for eternity. The parents who love their child punish him to bring to the correct way; if they do not then the child becomes more bezerk and their love only becomes ignorance. As quoted above in the short term it seems painful, but in the long term it is auspicious especially considering that the entire stint in material world is infinitesemal compared to that in spiritual realm.

 

You said:

 

 

So knowing that people will follow in God's footsteps, why did He not set the right example, and the right example only for man to follow? i.e: no killing whatsoever, showing love and respect to others etc. etc.? Why did He have to add all these confusing and contradicting factors to it that make you doubt everything?

 

 

 

He does present the perfect examples. For this age of confusion, therefore, the pastimes of Lord Chaitanya are the most appropriate when He appears as the universal Guru. As neophytes some may not be able to relate with His pastimes in other avataars quite as well.

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much Sumedh prabhu, for taking the time to provide answers, they were certainly helpful. You are appreciated. From now on I shall refrain from 'trying' to explain our philosophy to anyone because I'm not qualified anyway.I'm just a hopeless fool.

[sumedh]

All glories to the devotees of the Lord

 

 

From now on I shall refrain from 'trying' to explain our philosophy to anyone because I'm not qualified anyway.

 

 

 

Neither am i remotely qualified; i only try to explain the little i have understood and there must necessarily be errors in my understanding. This discussion is to clarify our own understanding so that we may at least be satisfied with the answers.

 

haribol

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Got tempted to put up this very impressive conversatioin for other devotees to read and understand.

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Haribol.

[Guest guest]

"Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly like deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs."

 

I find this particular quote by S.P. interesting because from this bit and the one after I gather that we have never been in that eternally blissful state before, but were asleep or anesthetized. So from this it seems that we were actually destined to undergo this material misery from day one rather than that we were rebelling against God and us wanting to be God ourselves.

 

On with another issue then. That is, I would still like to hear something substantial on human history . The dino issue has not been resolved, while true that perhaps it is not important for spiritual progress but still it would be nice to see this issue cleared up, rather than ignored. Because everything seems to fit, but for this. I mean,if the dinos lived from a staggering timespan 248 million years to 65 million years ago, what yuga would they have been living in? Also,taking it back so far, it seems that alot of yuga's came and went in the inbetween timeperiod of the now and then. That would have meant that scores of civilizations came and went,even from the moment the dino's died out up until are present written history,and should have left at least something behind, yet all we find are dinosaur fossils. This is puzzling to me.

 

haribol!

[jagatpurush]

we should not think of "archaeology" as a hard and fast science. archaeologists claim to know the time table of the world, but they do not. their time table keeps on changing.

 

moreover, what percentage of the fossil record have they uncovered? a millionth of a per cent? and on this they base their very exact and "scientific" time tables?

 

there have been many artifacts discovered that support the Vedic timeline, but they have been rejected due to prejudice. for an in-depth analysis of Vedic archaeology, please visit

 

www.forbiddenarcheology.com

 

which is the work of Sadaputa Prabhu.

[Guest guest]

atheists are non believers, lets start of by saying for something to be created there has to be a creator i.e. the chair am sitting on didn't just come in a big bang, someone had to create just like us being created by god. i was just suggesting that god exist. You asked why don't archeologist can't find human bones that remains from several thousands years ago, 1st-this is because when an archeologist goes on a bone hunting mission it doesn't go for human remains but it goes for extinct species because people are not bothered about human remains. 2nd You find remains of hindus because the are cremated. 3rd the humans that lived in the dinosaur age were probably buried, however nature has its role i.e. the movement of plate tectonics, the ocean, decompose, build up of sediments on land, coastal erosion etc are factors which may make it impossible for humans today to find remains of other human beings that existed several eras ago. i could go into great depth however i think you might get bored. Krishna was a butterthief in his childhood and you are sayimg why can't we do the things that the lord himself has done. Who said you can't (but please don't compare yourself to the lord) as childhood we all have done things wrong i.e. steal from the shops, tease our parents etc however just like the lord we also got chased by our parents stick, we also got told off by our parents, so did the lord by yashoda. The reason why parents tell us off etc is because it's their duty to do so and our duty as a child is to do all the naughty things because once we grow up we cannot do those things again just like the lord (life becomes more serious). Remember as childrens we never understood bad doings etc but in our teenage life we begin to understand this is when we stop doing bad deeds. The reason why we get punished for the bad things that we do is not because the lord wants to punish us but because our actions leads to our fate i.e. if i decide to rob a car then as a result of my action i will end up in prison, hence i cannot blame the lord because it is i who chose to take that path, the lord didn't make me do that. The reason why he didn't say no killing is only because evil is always present in this world and to protect mankind one must kill. i understand your point why didn't he just make this world a paradise well a normal person such as me won't be able to answer that only a learnt scholar who has great knowledge would be able to answer it. Remember if god didn't want to he didn't have to come to this world however he did & i think we should be grateful to him about the fact that he came and gave us knowledge on how to live in this world.