Why behave like this ?

[mark]

Haribol

 

Why do some souls behave so badly towards other souls ?

 

(see following link as an example)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4406665.stm

 

Is it because the souls inhabiting the bodies of the seals being clubbed and sometimes skinned alive behaved like this to other souls in previous existences, and are now reaping the fruits of their karmic actions, and need to be made to suffer in return ?

 

When we behave badly towards another soul is it ever the case that that soul has done nothing wrong and is the innocent victim of our hatred/anger, or is it always the case that the soul being made to suffer is suffering because of its previous actions ?

 

Karma seems quite simple in principle but makes my head spin when I try to follow the course of actions.

 

It seems strange that the most 'advanced' species in the world, one that can show kindess and mercy more than any other creature due to its ability to reason and feel deep and complex emotions, inflicts more unneccesary cruelty and exhibits more greed and hatred than the rest of the animal kingdom put together.

 

I can't critise anyone too harshly as I am guilty of hurting many other souls in my past existences as well as this one, until by the grace of Srila Prabhupada, I finally chose to try and follow the K.C path.

 

I will be grateful to Srila Prabhupada forever more, and offer my humblest obeisances to him.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I offer my humble obesiances unto him!

 

This is appaling! but frankly, this is going on everywhere. Kali at its best. I have no comments but just to emphasize the greatness of Srila Prabhupada and the preciousness of human existance and our duty as a human being.

 

Hope we all learn.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

There is no doubt that it's something that makes humans kill.

 

What?

 

The Bible says animals have no soul and they are food.

 

The Koran says animals have no soul and they should be killed and eaten to please Allah.

 

Thus it's irreligions that forces it's followers to kill.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol!

 

Bastards, The Koran says nothing of the sort you claim. There is no verse in the Koran saying animals have no soul AND It contains no verse that says animals should be killed to please Allah. Why spread such minsinformation, that's bad karma. In next life, you may be a cow eaten by a muslim or christain.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

Please don't fool yourself and don't swear. The turth hurts, doesn't it?

 

Why do Muslims celebrate each and every festival with a kill?

 

The Muslims kill because the Koran orders them to. That's the truth.

 

If you cannot accept this then nature will prove it to you by making you into a cow who will be slaughtered in one of the Islamic festivals.

 

Whenever you argue about vegetarianism with a Muslim or Christian, they ultimately point to their scriptures.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

It is a fact that the Christains and Muslims believe that animals have no soul.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The Koran says animals have no soul and they should be killed and eaten to please Allah.

________

 

Dear Liers, would ya give me the verse where the Koran has the above two claims of yours. The problem with you liers is that you would bring up some false information on the scriptures and when asked to prove it you would say this:

 

"Whenever you argue about vegetarianism with a Muslim or Christian, they ultimately point to their scriptures."

 

Excuse me! I did not point to my scripture, you pointed at the Koran with your pack of lies and tried to spread false information about it.

 

Bastards you remain, until you bring those verses from Koran where 1)The Koran says animals have no soul 2) they should be killed and eaten to please Allah.

 

 

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna

 

Yes one *can* possibly interpret the verses of Quran to show that meat eating is not recommended. However as far as i have read, it does not prohibit it anywhere. If you wish to substantiate your point then you need to produce a verse which says that all meat is forbidden which you cannot, simply because none exists. So if you want to be taken seriously, instead of calling others liers and swearing you should produce verses from Quran to show that a) animals have soul, and b) all kinds meat is forbidden to eat.

 

It will be more than welcome if Quran would say that animals have soul, and meat-eating is sinful. Unfortunately neither the Quran says it (or at least the accepted translations), nor any of the muslims accept either of these two. Rather than arguing here you would do well to argue with muslims if your argument has any backing from Quran.

 

Quran 2:173

 

He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die

of themselves (without human interference), blood, the

meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than God. If

one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or

deliberate, he incurs no sin. God is Forgiver, Most

Merciful.

 

 

 

So halal meat as per the guidelines is allowed to be eaten.

 

Quran 6:145

 

Say (O' Muhammad): "I find not in the Message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it unless it be dead meat or blood poured forth or the flesh of swine for it is an abomination or what is impious (meat) on which a name has been invoked other than Allah's.

 

 

 

Quran 16:115

 

He has only forbidden you dead meat and blood and the flesh of swine and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity without willful disobedience nor transgressing due limits then Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

 

 

 

Then muslims will also use verses like these:

 

Quran 2:168-171

 

O mankind! Eat of that which is lawful and wholesome in the earth, and follow not the footsteps of the Satan. Lo! he is an open enemy for you. He enjoins upon you only the evil and the foul, and that you should tell concerning Allah that which you know not. And when it is said unto them: Follow that which Allah hath revealed, they say: We follow that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance? The likeness of those who disbelieve is as the likeness of one who calls unto that which hears naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, Dumb, Blind, therefore they have no sense.

 

 

 

Quran 16:116-117

 

But say not for any false thing that your tongues may put forth "This is lawful and this is forbidden" so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah will never prosper. (In such falsehood) is but a paltry profit; but they will have a most grievous Penalty.

 

 

 

to emphasize that saying (halal) meat-eating is not good or forbidden (and any other thing not mentioned in Quran) is following satan etc etc.

 

As for animals having soul, remember that unless Quran explicitly says that animals have soul there is no reason to imagine that actually Quran says so using some indirect interpretation. You think you are very clever in having reversed the real statements: a) Quran does not say explicitly that animals have soul, and b) Quran allows for eating meat. If you can present a verse which says that animals have soul then it will be indeed a pleasant surprise which will bolster argument against meat-eating significantly.

[Guest guest]

Am In trying to be clever. Hello! I am trying to protest the misinformation some of you like to spread about the Koran.

 

When you say, that "The Koran says animals have no soul and they should be killed and eaten to please Allah." then the onus is on YOU to provide a verse that says so. One of you said "Koran says..." so I am simply asking you to show me where does "It says" which verse...on what basis did you make that comment?

 

If I were to say that a physics book says sun is smaller than earth, I must have read that somewhere in the book. If the book does not say anything about the size of the sun, I would not try to EXPLAIN to others, that ..."because the book doesn't say anything about the size of the sun, it means that the book SAYS that the sun is smaller than the earth." How hypocritical of you!

 

As I said, when you offend others with your baseless lies you have earned to be called .!

 

Not being able to find a verse in the Koran to that effect (because there does not exist such verse) you are now trying ask me to prove that the Koran says animals have souls.

 

"Koran does not saying anything about the soul of animals" IS NOT EQUAL to "Koran say animals do not have souls and should be killed to please Allah".

 

Besides if you cared to know, there are hadith (sayings of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that indicates that animals have souls and they go to heaven.

 

Your hatred for muslims leads you to invent lies....but trust me I do not hate you for what you mean to me.

 

You know what offends me? You say something casual and irreverent about the Koran....how easily you go around spreading rampantly the word that Koran says something even though the truth is you have not really cared to find out if that is true. You are not earning any good karma even by your own yardstick.

 

There are other lies about Koran..like "Koran says that man was created 6000 years ago". The Koran DOES NOT say that. But your are a dimwit...you would argue that because the Koran doesn't say anything about it, it means that the "Koran says man was created 6000 years". If there's anything the Koran does not say anything about, you guys would invent a lie (like "Koran says...")to fill in.

 

Good luck! And I think it is actually you who were trying to be clever here. Would you please have some sense and stop being so full of hatred and lies towards muslims.

 

 

[mark]

Haribol

 

My apologies to everyone - I am rather regreting making this post, which was really a question about karma, as I was trying to understand why we behave like we do.

 

Could anyone answer the karma question at all?

 

I did not intend to start a heated argument between various devotees.

 

If the texts that went to make up the bible had not been tampered with by meat eaters and people who liked to drink alcohol (ie emperor Constantine), the bible would unequivocally prohibit meat eating - 'Thou shall not kill' and Genesis 9:4 specifically say we should not eat meat, but as with most laws, people like to misinterpret them or ignore them and do as they wish (and then whine about it later on when they get punished).

 

I know very little of the Koran, but get the impression that it says if you are going to eat meat it should be Halal (sanctifed by God). I have read recently about Muslims who are vegetarian who could ask their Mullah for permission not take part in killing animals on holy days.

 

It is not obligatory to eat meat in any religion is it ?

All Muslims and all Christians (as well as believers in all other religions) could become vegetarian and not be committing any offence according to scriptures as far as I am aware. Most won't though, and will not even give the idea any thought or credence.

 

The most sickening thing I find is when animals are abused or killed for 'religious' ceremonies. (In Spain there is such a ceremony each year where a goat is thrown alive from the top of a bell tower- This is definately NOT an instruction in the bible, just a vile local custom given a 'religious' dressing).

 

In the vedic ceremonies in the previous yuga, animal sacrifices were made, but only so the souls of these could be reborn as humans and have the chance of liberation, not so that people could satisy their demonic taste for flesh.

 

People eat meat because often thats the way they were brought up, as I was, and are told its necessary for health and survival (which is obviously a lie, if not in fact contrary to the truth).

 

I can only thank Srila Prabhupada once more for showing me the proper way to live, and ask for forgiveness for my actions of the past.

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

it's funny how this muslim can't argue his point without being aggressive and rude.

 

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna

 

Your reply was based on the statement:

 

The Koran says animals have no soul and they should be killed and eaten to please Allah.

 

 

 

So you should have simply said that this is a wrong understanding and corrected it instead of swearing. However, it is a known fact that muslims celebrate festivals like bakr-id by mass slaughter of innocent animals as an offering to Allah for eating. So the onus is on you to prove that this behaviour is opposed to Quran. On the contrary i have given verses which clearly say that this is fine and falls in the category of good halal food which is a sacrifice to Allah.

 

You said:

 

There is no verse in the Koran saying animals have no soul

 

 

 

You are right, the Quran makes no direct mention of this but there is something known as deductions based on scriptural statements. Having soul is such an important truth that if the Quran says that humans have soul, but makes no mention of animals then it will be understood that apart from humans no one has soul and that is the accepted belief of almost all Islamic theologians currently. If you read the currently accepted beliefs of Islamic scholars and leaders then you will find that almost all of them believe that animals have no soul precisely because Quran says humans have soul but animals are not mentioned. How far do we regress your logic here? Do the stones have souls? Do plants or germs have souls? Quran makes no mention of these either. So how do we select and come to conclusions. The natural deduction is that according to Quran animals have no soul.

 

You said:

 

Besides if you cared to know, there are hadith (sayings of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that indicates that animals have souls and they go to heaven.

 

 

 

I have heard so elsewhere but am yet to see a verse from any Hadith which substantiates this point, maybe you can bring some here so that we can be clear of just heresay; however the main problem is that most muslims do not accept this interpretation. There are many more, much much more important truths hidden in some of islamic texts which Sri Gaurangadeva revealed regarding the Truth and aim of human life that muslims do not care to know. For instance:

From Chaitanya-Charitamrta Madhya 18.185-196

 

Among the Muslims was a grave person who was wearing a black dress. People called him a saintly person.

 

The heart of that saintly person softened upon seeing Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He wanted to talk to Him and establish impersonal Brahman on the basis of his own scripture, the Koran.

 

When that person tried to establish the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth on the basis of the Koran, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu refuted his argument.

 

Whatever arguments he put forward, the Lord refuted them all. Finally the person became stunned and could not speak.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "The Koran certainly establishes impersonalism, but at the end it refutes that impersonalism and establishes the personal God.

 

"The Koran accepts the fact that ultimately there is only one God. He is full of opulence, and His bodily complexion is blackish.

 

"According to the Koran, the Lord has a supreme, blissful, transcendental body. He is the Absolute Truth, the all-pervading, omniscient and eternal being. He is the origin of everything.

 

"Creation, maintenance and dissolution come from Him. He is the original shelter of all gross and subtle cosmic manifestations.

 

"The Lord is the Supreme Truth, worshipable by everyone. He is the cause of all causes. By engaging in His devotional service, the living entity is relieved from material existence.

 

"No conditioned soul can get out of material bondage without serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Love at His lotus feet is the ultimate goal of life.

 

"The happiness of liberation, whereby one merges into the Lord's existence, cannot even be compared to a fragment of the transcendental bliss obtained by service unto the Lord's lotus feet.

 

"In the Koran there are descriptions of fruitive activity, speculative knowledge, mystic power and union with the Supreme, but ultimately all this is refuted and the Lord's personal feature established, along with His devotional service.

 

 

 

From Jaiva-Dharma Chapter 5

 

Lahiri Mahasaya was a learned scholar of the Farsi language, and he had studied the thirty sepharas of the Qur’an, and many books of the Sufis. He asked the Kazi, “According to your ideology, what is meant by mukti?”

 

The Kazi replied, “What you refer to as the jiva, individual soul, we call ruh. This ruh is found in two conditions: ruh-mujarrad, the conscious or liberated soul; and ruh-tarkibi, the conditioned soul. What you refer to as spirit (cit) we call mujarrad, and what you refer to as matter (acit) we call jism. Mujarrad is beyond the limitations of time and space, whereas jism is subordinate to time and space. The ruh-tarkibi, or baddha-jiva, has a material mind and is full of ignorance (malphut) and desires. The ruh-mujarrad are pure and aloof from all these contaminations, and they reside in the spiritual abode, which is known as alam al-mashal. “The ruh becomes pure through the gradual development of ishqh or prema. There is no influence of jism, or matter, in that abode where Khoda (God) brought the prophet Paigambar Sahib. Yet even there, the ruh remains as a servitor (banda), and the Lord is the master. Therefore the relationship between the banda and Khoda is eternal, and mukti is actually the attainment of this relationship in its pure form. The Qur’an and the literature of the Sufis explain these conclusions, but not everyone can understand them. Gauranga Mahaprabhu mercifully taught Chand Kazi all these points, and since that time we have become His unalloyed bhaktas.”

 

Lahiri: What is the primary teaching of the Qur’an?

Kazi: According to the Qur’an, the Lord’s personal abode, which is the highest attainment in the spiritual world, is known as behesht. It is a fact that there is no formal worship there, yet life itself is worship (ibada). The residents of that abode are immersed in transcendental bliss simply by seeing the Lord. This is the very same teaching that has been presented by Sri Gaurangadeva.

 

Lahiri: Does the Qur’an accept that the Lord has a transcendental form?

Kazi: The Qur’an states that the Lord has no form. But Sri

Gaurangadeva told Chand Kazi that this teaching of the Qur'an means that the Lord cannot have a material form. It does not preclude the existence of His pure spiritual form. Paigambar Sahib saw the divine loving form of the Lord in accordance with his level of eligibility. The transcendental moods and sentiments that are characteristic of the other rasas remained hidden from him.

 

 

 

Simultaneously Sri Gauranga did not hesitate to criticize the sinful practises of muslims such as in Chaitanya-Charitamrta Adi 17.153-17.171. So you thoroughly misjudge devotees here, for many have more knowledge of your own scriptures. If you want to know more then read "The Hidden Treasure of Al-Qur'an (as explained by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu)" which must be available from Nararatna Dasa prabhu e.g. here http://www.dipika.org/2003/01/10/muslim.preaching.program/index.html

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Extract from Science of Self Relization by HDG Srila Prabhupada.......

 

Mike Robinson: How do you know that the animal has a soul?

Srila Prabhupada: You can know, also. Here is the scientific proof: the animal eats, you eat; the animal sleeps, you sleep; the animal has sex, you have sex; the animal also defends, you also defend. Then what is the

difference between you and the animal? How can you say that you have a soul but the animal doesn't?

Mike Robinson: I can see that completely. But the Christian scriptures say...

Srila Prabhupada: Don't bring in any scriptures; this is a commonsense topic. Try to understand. The animal is eating, you are eating; the animal is sleeping, you are sleeping; the animal is defending, you are defending; the animal is having sex, you are having sex; the animals have children, you have children; they have a living place, you have a

living place. If the animal's body is cut, there is blood; if your body is cut, there is blood. So, all these similarities are there. Now, why do you deny this one similarity, the presence of the soul? This is not logical. You have studied logic? In logic there is something called analogy. Analogy means drawing a conclusion by finding many points of similarity. If there are so many points of similarity between human beings and animals, why deny one similarity? That is not logic. That is not science.