Swaminaryan & Shikshapatri - Part 1

[Guest guest]

There is only one Shri Krishna. He is One without a second. He incarnates and has His plenary expansions, only for His Lilas. It is a question of which incarnation of Lord Krishna you want to worship. You may worship Him as He is, or you may choose to worship any one of His numerous incarnations and expansions.

 

Hare Krishna

[kcp1982]

Jai shree Krishna.

 

It doesn't matter what the Vachnamrut or any other scripture says, the Hindu religion is based on the Vedic scriptures of which the Bhagavad-gita is the essence of all Vedic knowledge.

 

Vachnamrut is a man made scripture and thus not authorised. Only the eternal scriputres like the Bhagavad-gita are authorized, as they have existed since the beginning of time and are eternal.

 

The fact that Lord Krishna is present in more than 98% of the temples around the world and Swaminarayan is present in less than 1% of the temples clealry proves who is the supreme in the Hindu religion.

 

If you BAPS people want to call your self Hindus then follow the Vedic scriptures otherwise call your selves Adhrama. Which means those who oppose the Vedic scriptures.

 

In the temples built by swaminarayan himself, Lord Krishna is in the center of the altar. Guess why? because Krishna is the supreme.

 

I just cannot understand you BAPS followers foolishness. BAPS is an irreligious movement, that's for sure. You may not eat meat or onions, but so what? The donkeys don't eat meat or onions too.

[Guest guest]

I am not calling Him a liar. He has NEVER said that "Akshardham" is greater than Golok. There you go with your hallucinatory interpretations again. In the Vachanamrut, it is stated numerous times, and by your Lord Himself, that Akshardham "is in the middle of Golok". Nowhere is it said in His words Akshardham is greater than Golok. He says in Shikshapatri that Golok is "our beloved destination". Now, what part of this do you fail to understand.?

 

once again, read this entire post, all this has already been covered.

 

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

read the long post with the quotes. There it is said if you read it properly. He talks of Golok Vaikunth and Akshardham

 

In reply to the comments about aksharbhram, Maharaj has said:

 

"when God incarnates for the purpose of granting liberation to the jivas, He is always accompanied by His Akshardham.....Therefore a devotee of God should realise that the form of God along with His Akshardham is present on this Earth, and he should also explain this fact to others" - Vachanamrut Gadhada I-71.

 

There is where He has said it. Is that enough proof for you? Probably not but what can one do.

[Guest guest]

 

"The fact that Lord Krishna is present in more than 98% of the temples around the world and Swaminarayan is present in less than 1% of the temples clealry proves who is the supreme in the Hindu religion." - no, it proves which has been around for longer, not which is correct. As BAPS is the fastest growing sect, by your interpretations, that would mean BAPS is correct. Numbers are insignificant. The philosophy is that which is to be debated.

[kcp1982]

The BAPS followers don't learn do they?

 

I already stated above that It's no surprise that the irreligions are out growing the religion (Krishna consciousness).

 

This was predicted 5000 years ago.

 

It's no surpruse. It just gives another clear indication of the BAPS movement, an irreligious movement. As stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam, in Kali Yuga, the irrelgions will be considered as religion and religion as irreligion.

 

[Guest guest]

what are you talking about, if u read my post i said numbers are irrelevant, as soon as you see something u jump on it. very clever

[Guest guest]

your silly interpretations are truly astounding. For example, no where has Maharaj stated that "Akshardham is better than Golok", but you interpret as such. Along the same lines, no where has Maharaj stated that the "Akshardham" that incarnates with Him is human in form as is His most cherished devotee, but you are quick to bring out Gadhada 21 and 71 to try to prove it, but in neither location does he state expressly what the entire BAPS is based on.

 

bottom line.....Hare Krishna /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kcp1982]

"Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." Lord Krishna (BG. 9.11)

 

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." Lord Krishna (Bg. 18.66)

 

"Whatever a man may sacrifice to other gods, O son of Kunti, is really meant for Me alone, but it is offered without true understanding. I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down." Lord Krishna (Bg. 9.23-24)

 

[Guest guest]

excuse me, what are u talking about, read gadh 71 and then talk, please, ive got it in front of me. dont talk rubbish

[kcp1982]

It's a complete waste of time to discuss the unauthorized scriptures like the Vanchamrut.

 

The man made scriptures can say whatever they want, they are complete non-sensical.

[Guest guest]

where in gadh 71 does it say akshar in its second form is human?

[Guest guest]

he doesnt in gadh 71, gadh 71 just shows that when God comes down on earth, he comes with His Akshardham (bit unlikely that he's going to bring a formless Akshardham with Him isnt it - he means Akshar, the second of the 5 eternal entities)

 

It is in gadh 21 that he mentions that Akshar has 2 forms - "That Akshar has two forms. One, which is formless and pure chaitanya, is known as chidakash or bhramamahol. In its other form, that Akshar remains in the service of Purushottam Narayan" Gadh 21

 

Therefore, the Akshardham that Maharaj brought with Him is Mul Aksharmurti Gunatitanand Swami, who is wholly and without the slightest bit of difference today Pramukh Swami Maharaj. This is the philosophy. We understand the difference between Akshar and Purushottam. Akshar can never be like Purushottam. That is why Pramukh Swami can never be like Swaminarayan. But we offer service to him like to do to Swaminarayan as per Vach Vartal 5 ("sarkhi Seva")

[Guest guest]

I had been going to the local BAPS temple for a few years now. Why? Because it was the only temple in the city that I live that has Radha Krishna in it - even though they're on the side, I guess I'm the only one there who offers my dandvats to them. ANyways, to be honest with you, I didnt realise until just recently how your entire BAPS sampradaya is built on interpretations of gadh 21 and 71. NOWHERE in 21 is it said that he brings down his most cherished devotee in the form of Akshar. He simply says that Akshar in its 2nd form is in the service of the Lord.

 

Lets say your child tells you "I played with Bob today". Now, it may be assumed that this Bob is another child. But that is simply an assumption. Bob may be a child, an adult, a dog, cat, horse, or even any inanimate thing that is named Bob. Your entire existence is based on a similar interpretation of gadh 21 and 71. BTW - you dont need to give quotes from these 2 cos I have probably read them more than you ever will, trying to figure out exactly how you base your beliefs.

 

It fascinates me that you make interpretations of what your God said and refuse to believe, accept or follow what He has DIRECTLY told you.

 

"Worship Shri Krishna as soon as you wake up, BEFORE DOING ANYTHING ELSE" - Shikshapatri 49. Which Shri Krishna? He who resides in Akshardham in the middle of Golok with Radharani eternally at His side and being served by the Gopis of Vrindavan.

 

"They shall then CHANT the Holy NAme of Lord Krishna, ...ONLY AFTER WHICH they shall start their daily routines" Shikshapatri 54

 

"They shall worship Shri Krishna's Idol ... then CHANT HIS Holy Name"...Shikshapatri 56

 

"That Parmatma - SHree Krishna, who is Supreme, Parabrahman, Bhagawan or Purushottam, is the cause of ALL incarnations (AVATARI), is the Lord of us ALL, and is to be worshipped for final redemption" Shikshapatri 108.

 

"All human beings shall worship Shri Krishna, knowing that there is NO OTHER WAY FOR ULTIMATE REDEMPTION THAN DEVOTION TO HIM" Shikshapatri 113

 

"None shall EVER listen to scriptures that deny the existence of Shri Krishna" Shikshapatri 29

 

According to YOUR God, we should never listen to YOU, let alone give you the time for our replies.

 

How important are these COMMANDS given to you by your Lord? Your should "hold every word of it as the personified form of my own Divine Self" Shikshapatri 209.

 

Every time I read one of your posts, it is like hearing a man who is drowing, desperately attempting grasp any little twig that can save him. Similarly, you are drowning in the see of maya in Kali Yuga, making excuses upon excuses of why you wont believe what your Lord has told you.

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

"NOWHERE in 21 is it said that he brings down his most cherished devotee in the form of Akshar. He simply says that Akshar in its 2nd form is in the service of the Lord."

 

i never claimed it did. i said it says that in gadh 71, not 21. can you not you read???

 

"They shall then CHANT the Holy NAme of Lord Krishna"

 

Why did he the "Swaminarayan" mahamantra 14 days after he received the gadi from Ramanand Swami in Faneni?????

 

"None shall EVER listen to scriptures that deny the existence of Shri Krishna"

 

Nobody's denying the exiestence of Shri Krishna, dont just put random quotes in that have nothing to do with anything. We're not stupid, contrary to what you may think.

 

"making excuses upon excuses of why you wont believe what your Lord has told you."

 

Swaminarayan said Krishna was supreme. He has also said He Himself was supreme. Nobody's making excuses. We ARE following His words. He said He will reside eternally in Akshar, as I have already mentioned, WITH Vachnamrut references. That Akshar he has revelaved on many occasions is Gunatitanand Swami, and in His Vato, it is written hundreds of times that Swaminarayan is supreme.

 

"It fascinates me that you make interpretations of what your God said and refuse to believe, accept or follow what He has DIRECTLY told you. " What interpretations. Tell me how ive wrongly interpreted these Vachnamruts?? Quote them and tell me how they differ from what I am saying...

 

in Panchala 7 He even quotes the Shrimad Bhagvat:

"Dhamna svena sada nirastakuhakam" Shrimad Bhagwat 1.1.1

 

Ie. God dispels the ignorance of Maya through His Dham (Akshar).

 

For more on Aksharbhraman refer to Isha Upanishad (5), Kath Upanishad (2/2/15), Shrimad Bhagvatam (3/11/40), Bhagvat Gita (8/3,11,13/13-18, 15/16) and many many more which i cant be bothered to write.

 

About why we offer devotion to Pramukh Swami too:

 

"Yasya deve para bhaktihi, yatha deve tatha gurau,

Tasyaite kathita hi arthaha, prakashante mahatmanaha" ~ Shvetashvatara Upanishad 6/23

 

"As one reveres the murti (of the Lord), one should offer devotion to the Guru. So decree the wise sages. Therein one will obtain everything there is to obtain. (Backing up Vartal 5 because The Vachnamrut is nonsense isnt it, and its not authentic, so it doesnt count)

 

PS. "I played with Bob today"

 

great, but who's Bob??

[Guest guest]

because you continue to stupidly refuse to believe what your Lord has told you to believe.

 

I have read gadh 21 and 71 more than you ever will; it doesnt state in either place that He brings down His most cherished devotee in the form of askshar.

 

If you dont like the instructions He gave you in Shikshapatri, go find yourself some other religious sect. And you are NOT following his instructions. How many BAPS devotees start their day after worshipping Shri Krishna, chanting the name of Shri Krishna, etc?

 

And please dont quote from Bhagawat or other scriptures - you cant make heads or tails out of them other than proclaiming the supreme stupidity of your interpretations.

 

Hare Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

please dont quote from the vachnamrut. u have somehow luckily uttered the name of Swaminarayan through past sanskars, and you shall therefore attain Akshardham eventually. I wont post here again becuase theres no point. Even though i have given a reasonable quote from the Vachnamrut, there is no point having a debate with you, becuase you say the same point over and over again and when i try to debate it from various quotes and ideas you simple regurgitate the same thing yet again. BTW, why are you even reading the vachnamrut, it is not an autorised srcipture and doesnt deserve to be read. And Pramukh Swami is an ekantik bhakta of God and is fully God realised as many of you agree on this site, yet you fail to follow his principle. Logic? doesnt matter. i wont read any response. As long as i have his company i know i am safe, that is all that matters.

[Guest guest]

" there is no point having a debate with you"

 

why you do not go to a more advanced master in your line and you ask instrucions for counteracting objections?

 

that's the process..

 

or you have expressed the topmost level of your phylosophy?

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

please accept my most humble obeisances if I have offended you. my sincere dandvat pranams at your feet.

 

While you may have quoted verses from the Vachanamrut, the point remains essentially unchanged, which you continue to ignore : Your Lord, Lord Swaminarayan, Himself wrote the Shikshapatri, in which He has commanded you to worship Shree Krishna as soon as you wake up, along with chanting His holy name; BAPS disregards not only this command, but dozens of other commands from Shikshapatri regarding Krishna.

 

Now, to counteract this argument, you continually bring up other vague, side-topics. Your interpretation of scriptures is quite different from the way most other sampradayas interpret them. For example, you quoted the first verse of the Bhagavatam, and somehow construe the meaning to suggest that we must worship the incarnate form of akshar. That verse starts with "Om Namah Bhagavate Vasudevaya".... or, "Let me offer my respectful obeisances to Lord Krishna"...

 

I have read the quotes that you cite, but you repeated ignore the central argument here - which is repeated bouts of excuses about not worshipping Krishna.

 

As far as entry into Akshardham, I would feel immensely joyful if I get entry into Golok; again, you construe scriptures to get an interpretation that Golok is inferior to your Akshardham.

 

As far as Pramukh Swami is concerned, I do agree that he is God-realized; but I have never heard Him say "dont worship Shri Krishna as soon as you get up; instead, worship Lord Swaminarayan". I am not saying you are wrong for chanting "Swaminarayan...Swaminarayan"...I am saying you are wrong for not chanting the Holy Name of Krishna as your Lord has commanded (not suggested) you to do, first thing in the morning.

 

Hare Krishna

[dvij]

on the topic, you say Swaminarayan didnt have to say Krishna was supreme so many times. Let me raise an issue which i want directly addressed:

 

He went around india for 7 years and settled in Loj with Ramanand Swami's sampraday because his questions of the nature of Jiva, ishwar maya bhram and parabhram were answered. They believed in Krishna. If he started by saying He was supreme, who would actually have listened? Just like Krishna followers, for example you arent prepared to accept another Ishtadev, and fair enough, so were people not going to be prepared to listen to Him then. It does make sense. Whats the point of talking if nobody is going to listen. However by the end of His time on Earth, He did convince people He was supreme, even though they initially didnt believe it. For eg. Muktanand Swami, Niskulanand Swami, Atmanand Swami etc etc etc. How can you call this a vague excuse. Bare in mind that we are also not making up that He was supreme. He HAS said it. And also, about chanting Krishna's name, why oh why did he give the swaminarayan mantra. For fun? I agree with the guy who is not posting anymore. Only the easy questions are answered with the same answers, others are ignored.

[Guest guest]

dear sir,

firstly, let me say that I am of the mentality that if you believe someone to be God, that you should believe 100% of what He has told you. Maharaj himself states this in a Vachanamrut, I forget exactly which one.

 

Now, the issue of Him saying He is supreme - I have gone over this numerous times. While you folks continue to accuse us of "regurgitation", how is that different from your arguments? I have already answered this - He has said that Krishna is supreme, and He also said, unequivocally, in clear language that does not require any interpretation, that He is an incarnation of that Shri Krishna in the form of Nar-Narayan. I have gone to the extent of giving you quotes from YOUR scriptures (and yet, I'm the bad guy!)

 

Now, to counter this argument, numerous ridiculous proposals have been set forth in this thread by BAPS followers - you can read this thread; some of them include such rubbish as "there are numerous Krishnas in Gita, and Maharaj used the same approach", "Krishna only controls this universe, Maharaj controls them all" etc...I have answered all, to the best of my ability, in multiple posts above.

 

Now, the same old point about "He couldnt go around saying He is God" - I have already answered that, in depth, in some posts above. So rather than "Whats the point of talking if nobody is going to listen", whats the point of you bringing this stuff up if you arent going to listen???

 

Then you bring up the point of chanting Krishna's name. Dear Sir, I have not told you to chant His name. Lord Swaminarayan has said it in Shikshapatri.

 

"why oh why did he give the swaminarayan mantra. For fun?"

 

He gave you the Swaminarayan mantra - if you read my post, I am not arguing that. The point is, regardless of how many mantras He has given you, He has specifically stated that chant the name of Shri Krishna. You can choose to follow one instructions or all - its up to you. I'm not making this up!! But please dont make the same repetitive arguments - "well, he gave us this mantra so he really didnt mean for us to chant Krishna"... "well, he really didnt mean us to worship Krishna" etc. Nowhere has He directly said any of that.

 

Another point you bring up, that I have already answered before, in depth, with quotes from Vachanamrut "However by the end of His time on Earth, He did convince people He was supreme, even though they initially didnt believe it. For eg. Muktanand Swami, Niskulanand Swami, Atmanand Swami etc etc etc." THe senior paramhansas have stated, clearly, in Vachanamrut that they recognize Maharaj as the incarnation of the divine potency of Lord Krishna. Again, I'm not making this up - its there for you to read.

 

"Only the easy questions are answered with the same answers, others are ignored."

 

If you read the rest of the posts on this board, you will find that there are a lot more harder questions being answered. This actually is one of the easiest topics to answer. Why? Because your Lord has DIRECTLY told you what to do. Just open ANY page of shikshapatri. So its not us that arent listening, its you. Not only do you not listen, in the process you take offense!

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

"About why we offer devotion to Pramukh Swami too:

 

"Yasya deve para bhaktihi, yatha deve tatha gurau,

Tasyaite kathita hi arthaha, prakashante mahatmanaha" ~ Shvetashvatara Upanishad 6/23

 

"As one reveres the murti (of the Lord), one should offer devotion to the Guru. So decree the wise sages. Therein one will obtain everything there is to obtain. (Backing up Vartal 5 because The Vachnamrut is nonsense isnt it, and its not authentic, so it doesnt count)"

 

Nonsense.

If you really want to worship your Guru, read

SHIKSHAPATRI SHLOK 128.

Now answer that to me please.

 

 

BAPS are full of flawed arguments. A PR-marketing cult based on nothing but complete deliberate misinterpretation of shastras.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Yasya deve para bhaktihi, yatha deve tatha gurau,

Tasyaite kathita hi arthaha, prakashante mahatmanaha" ~ Shvetashvatara Upanishad 6/23

 

"As one reveres the murti (of the Lord), one should offer devotion to the Guru. So decree the wise sages.

Why is this nonsense?? Are the Upanishads also nonsense now???????????

 

If the Vachanamrut is nonsense, then the shikshapatri is also nonsense isnt it? Dont contradict yourself. We dont worship him as God. We are identifying ourselves with Him as per 116, in order to know God. He is the only way we can know God.

 

Tell me why the Upanishad Shlok is nonsense........

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

the Upanisad sloka is not non-sense; certainly, there are numerous places in the sastras that mention that one must worship guru with reverence almost equal to God; no-one would be pointing fingers at you if that is all you did; the point is, as far as I know, you are the only Hindu sampradaya that worships your guru as the Supreme Brahman incarnate. Of course, you will pull out verses from Vachanamrut which in your interpretation will support this.

 

But in the end, we are not concerned here about guru; we are concerned about Purna Purshottam Shri Krishna.

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

as far as you know we worship him as supreme bhraman incarnate. Well you obviously dont know far enough. No way do we worship him like this. We do not believe you offer devotion to him in akshardham, but to attain akshardham we must offer devotion to him as stated in the upanishads. The philosophy is vishishtadvait.

the topic about the supreme has been exhausted.