Is Siva worship indispensible?

[Guest guest]

Since siva is the greatest vaishnava, is siva worship absolutely necessary prior to approaching krishna? As we are impure, will it offend krisna if we approach him as we are? is it wise to worship siva first?

[Guest guest]

Lord Krishna clearly states in the BG that the less intelligent worship the demigods like Lord Shiva.

[Savitar]

are brahma,vishnu, and shiva demigods? if so, is Brahman worship the only worship that leads to enlightenment?

[Guest guest]

For your INFO Lord Shiva is not a Demigod.

Thanks

[Guest guest]

If Lord Shiva is not a demigod then what is he?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I offer my humble obeisances unto him!

 

Lord Siva is a demigod but not an ordinary entity. Lord Brahma is a living entity who has birth and death and also are all other demigods who are living entities who have birth and death.

 

But, if iam not wrong, unlike the other demigods (including Brahma), Lord Siva is not like the regular demigods, I think Lord Siva does not die like the other demigods.

 

Whatever the case, I remember Srila Prabhupada say in one of his books that we should not think Lord Siva as an ordinary living entity as other demigods (including Brahma).

 

Also, there is another description between Krishna and Siva,

Siva has 58 of the total 64 opulances but Lord Krishna is the Supreme possessing all 64 opulances. This is the difference.

 

In another instance, Srila Prabhupada says, If Krishna is the milk then Siva is like the curd. Curd comes from milk, eventhough they are same, they are also different.

 

So, from the qualititative data, Lord Siva is only next to Lord Krishna. So, as devotees, if we say we are a Vaishnava serving Lord Krishna then we should (this is a 100% must) that we also should serve Siva when the opportunity arises. In other words, we should respect Siva as much as Lord Krishna.

 

If we neglect Siva then i personally think we cannot be called a Vaishnava.

 

So, let us not argue over who is bigger for that is not our duty as jivas, out eternal duty is to serve Krishna which automatically will serve Siva but we should serve Siva exclusively if the need arises.

 

We dont have the qualification to discuss or talk about Siva in terms of comparison to Krishna. We are not in that platform. It is like analayzing Graduate courses when you are only in kindergarten. So, we can never understand the relation between Siva and Krishna and whatever the relation that is not our duty and we should not care.

 

If we are Vaishanvas, then we should respect Siva and his followers. End of story.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

Shiva is brahman. Imperishable..immortal part of ourselves. Shiva give meaning to energy & the pancha boothas. The shiva inside each one integrate these substances to give you a form and an identity each time you wake-up or return from deep sleep.

 

When the shiva leaves the body, the boothas disintegrate (energy remains constant, though in a different form). When in coma, the doctors have to wait for the Shiva or the conciousness to take over the body. When the heartbeat has a chance to continue after a medical situation, the Shiva in you has to kick in. This is irrespective whether you recognize or not, or to whatever zillion classification you have within vaishnava belief.

 

This is not just true for you, but for everything animate and innanimate in the world. Everything is shiva and shakthi combination. There is no parallel to the love between shiva & shakthi, and the biggest proof is the living you yourself, as it merges in you giving you the identity. Krishna is great example of a person who has reaslized brahman. Krishna demonstrates, how such a true nature of an individual can grace a time of child-slayers, egoistic/revengeful, greedy/jeolous, & materialistic people.

 

Realising the brahman or the shiva within & outside, and wasting your material body or going to himalayas is not a path for moksha. Realising the brahman/shiva within and outside, and discovering your own true nature/krishna is the path to moksha, by running away from nothing. Viveka is far more important than running away & krishna is the supreme example.

 

You guys figure out which is easier, Attaining Krishna or Shiva. It's is said that if you enlighten yourself to brahman/Shiva, and keep yourself to continued reading of vedas/good sat-sang, the krishna/true-nature will dawn in you. In such Krishna conciousness, all the classifications have to be forgotten slowly, as it's a humoungous undoing effort.

 

Dharma is not about attaining Krishna (maine krishna ko pa liya), Cricket is not about (maine Sachin ko pa liya). It's about becoming a cricketer like sachin, or beoming a spiritual great like Krishna. Both have to come from within you, it's not about 'pana' from outside.

[Guest guest]

Shiva is brahman. Imperishable..immortal part of ourselves. Shiva give meaning to energy & the pancha boothas. The shiva inside each one integrate these substances to give you a form and an identity each time you wake-up or return from deep sleep.

 

When the shiva leaves the body, the boothas disintegrate (energy remains constant, though in a different form). When in coma, the doctors have to wait for the Shiva or the conciousness to take over the body. When the heartbeat has a chance to continue after a medical situation, the Shiva in you has to kick in. This is irrespective whether you recognize or not, or to whatever zillion classification you have within vaishnava belief.

 

This is not just true for you, but for everything animate and innanimate in the world. Everything is shiva and shakthi combination. There is no parallel to the love between shiva & shakthi, and the biggest proof is the living you yourself, as it merges in you giving you the identity. Krishna is great example of a person who has reaslized brahman. Krishna demonstrates, how such a true nature of an individual can grace a time of child-slayers, egoistic/revengeful, greedy/jeolous, & materialistic people.

 

Realising the brahman or the shiva within & outside, and wasting your material body or going to himalayas is not a path for moksha. Realising the brahman/shiva within and outside, and discovering your own true nature/krishna is the path to moksha, by running away from nothing. Viveka is far more important than running away & krishna is the supreme example.

 

You guys figure out which is easier, Attaining Krishna or Shiva. It's is said that if you enlighten yourself to brahman/Shiva, and keep yourself to continued reading of vedas/good sat-sang, the krishna/true-nature will dawn in you. In such Krishna conciousness, all the classifications have to be forgotten slowly, as it's a humoungous undoing effort.

 

Dharma is not about attaining Krishna (maine krishna ko pa liya), Cricket is not about (maine Sachin ko pa liya). It's about becoming a cricketer like sachin, or beoming a spiritual great like Krishna. Both have to come from within you, it's not about 'pana' from outside.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I offer my humble obeisances unto him!

 

Your comparison of Krishna to Sachin and Siva to cricket, to me, is unacceptable. You say you have achieved Krishna...in what way and please describe.

 

You must be a strong Siva follower and that is why you see Krishna as next to Siva which to us Vaishnavas is a blasphemy.

 

You have equated brahman to siva. So, then,

 

why didnt Siva speak the Bhagavad Gita?

 

Why isnt Siva the paramatma feature inside everyones heart. All vedas and literature proclaim Krishna as the four-handed paramatma feature in everyones heart.

 

Why isnt Siva incarnating in every millineum- in cosmic calculation- in every day of Brahma to protect his devotees?

 

Why is Siva only proscribed to destruction?

 

Siva will not do any of the above because it is not His business. He was created to do a particular job and that is what He is doing.

 

The Siva you are talking about is "Shambu"- an impersonal light form that emenates from Lord Krishna and fuses with Prakrti which is Shakti and hence this whole creation.

 

In other words, the Shambu which we call siva is an impersonal emanation of Lord Krishna and hence Krishna is the Supreme.

 

So, you might be correct in saying that Siva (Shambu) is the universal father and Shakti the universal mother. Yes, but they were only a manifestation created by Krishna or Garba Visnu (who is an expansion of Sankarshana who is the personal expansion of Krishna.

 

But, you are wrong in claiming that Siva is consciousness as there are two consciousness, one is you- the atma and the other is the Supresoul- the Paramatma and that Paramatma as i mentioned earlier is Krishna and not Siva (as you say). Also, your statments indicate that we as individual atmas do not have our own identity which is not true. We have our own atmas and then the supersoul the Paramatma.

 

So, the point that Siva is Consciousness is totally in correct based on Bhagavad Gita and Yes, Siva is a father in the sense that He was the instrument used by Krishna as the "Shambu" feature to impregnat nature (Shakti) and hence we all came into being.

 

But, you have to realize there is another echelon above Siva who created Siva Himself and that is Krishna and that is clearly stated in the Bhagavat Gita.

 

So, in essence, we as vaishnavas are not trying to be Sachin, but become Jagmohan Dalmiya who dictates the game of cricket in India.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Dharma is not about attaining Krishna (maine krishna ko pa liya), Cricket is not about (maine Sachin ko pa liya). It's about becoming a cricketer like sachin, or beoming a spiritual great like Krishna.

 

 

Krishna: Bg.18.66 Gives up all Dharmas. And surrender unto me. [Krishna]. So how can you say final goal is not Krishna? Sachin [The cricketer] plays with a small bat and ball. Your making an extraordinary comparrison. Krishna [God] being beyond cannot be made into. Just like everything is spiritual. God is also. We are also. This is impersonal realization. [brahman]. Ok so now you know you ARE spirit, now what do you do? Do you have spiritual body? Is there a spiritual planet? If you don't agree.

 

Then give me your reasons why somebody cannot have a spiritual body.? I already know what you will say. What you don't seem to realize is everything is Krishna energy. [brahman] and Krishna is Param Brahman. Anyway..

 

#Why cannot a person have a spiritual body?

#Why God cannot have a spiritual body?

#Whats the difference between the sky and a small body? [in the spiritual sence]

 

If you can answer the last question I gave your an absolute genious, since your so into Impersonalisum. If not read:

 

www.asitis.com www.gitamrta.org

[Guest guest]

"Shiva is brahman. Imperishable..immortal part of ourselves"

 

Lord Shiva is a demigods and although the topmost one, he too will have to die and change bodies.

 

Lord Krishna is not subjected to the laws of nature, as he is the controller of nature, the supreme.

 

Lord Shiva is the greatest devotee of Lord krishna, copy him, but don't follow him as god.

[Guest guest]

Ignorance is all these stories, hierarchies, god-positioning..etc.

Seeing is 'pana' or 'pa liya'

Experiencing is everything..

Veda's is not full of stories, hierarchies, & god/demigod positioning.

Krishna lived and ruled/served the material world with his bakthy & selfless service to brahman (Shiva the conciousness).

Krishna speaks of spiritual self and appeals to arjuna allthrough in the chapters for realization of brahman & acting with selfless service with single minded devotion to brahman. In the end when he says surrender to me, it may be a huge misunderstanding to construe it as his physical form.

Krishna's selfless service & divinity is a proof that he never cared for his physcial form or ego.

 

There is a character change in a person after realising the oneness with brahman. That is Krishna conciousness. It's selfless service walking in this material world without entanglments. Engaging in the world without entaglements requires viveka, and it's a continous learning. That's krishna conciousness.

 

All these baggages of stories and god-positioning, comes exactly on the way of 'walking without entaglements'. For such devotees, Krishna's appeal of leaving all dharma & surrender to me, will remain a struggle given the extent of entanglements.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Krishna's selfless service & divinity is a proof that he never cared for his physcial form or ego.

 

 

Krishna says in Gita Chapter 2, that his [Arjuna] compassion was based on BODYisum. WHY would Krishna say in Chapter 18 [of all places] Surrender unto me? This is so stupid. Your basically called Krishna a fool who doesn't know what He is talking about /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Krishna speaks about His planet, etc in THE Gita! Called Goloka Vrindavava. Now where is this planet located do you know? If you cannot answer these simple questions, you need to look at how high' your knowledge actually is.

 

Krishna body is whole spiritual [as stated by Krishna Himself]. No difference between His body and soul. Absolute. So for this reason there is no 'inside' or outside'. Afterall if God cannot have an Eternal spiritual body. [Even Humans can] then God is useless. This means God must possess both Impersonal and Personal. How straight forward do you want it? Come on. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Guest guest]

okay what is your response to the following, just curious:

 

Mahaprabhu Sripad Vallabhacharya, who is the second leading authority in all vaishnava lineages. Who was a intimate associate of Lord Chaitanya.He was also instructed by Sri Gadadhar Pandit. His Commentary comes second amongst all (First is Sridhar Swami). He iss in disciplic succession from Nimbarkacharya, and he has his own sampradaya what is known as Pusti Marg. The followers of Pusti Marg worship Srinathji, or who was known as Gopal Nathji the beloved deity of Madhavendra Puri. Then the Gopal Nathji Deity was given to Sri Vittalnathji by the Goswamis. Vitalnathji is consdired to be an incarnation of Krishna. Vallabhacahrya too is considered a manifestation of Vishnu and/or Agni. He also compiled the Madhurastakam which describes Krishna's beauty. (This is just information about who he is, incase someone doesnt know hehe)

 

In his work called the Balbodh, Vallabhacharya makes a reference to Krishna and Shiva. The Balbodh was desgined to establish the basic principles and fundamentals in vaishnav spiritual life. In it he states that Krishna and Shiv are bothh identical and should not be regarded as seperate.

 

This is one of the Greatest Vaishnav Acharyas Statement, i would be interested in what your response would be.

 

Then I am suree you aree familiar with Goswami Tulasidas' Shri Ramacharitmanas. In it there are countless references where Lord Shiva regards Rama as his beloved Lord. (Lord Shiva is Nararting this to Parvathi, the Name Ramcharitmanas was given by Shiv)but in it there are also reference to Rama considering Shiv his beloved Lord. In one well known instance, we know the famous shiv linga of Rameshwaram(In Southern India). The Meaning of Rameshwaram is taken in two ways. For one, Rameshwara-He who is the Lord of Ram, then also He whose Lord is Ram. This is confirmed in other versions of the Ramayan as well. Then we must look at the statement of Lord Rama himself. He states that He who disregards Shiva and worships me shall never attain me not even in dreams. Whoever worships Shiva,but Ignores me, are but mere fools who will dwell in hell. He also states that Lord Shiva is his Beloved Lord, the Lord of his heart.

 

Yeah Im just curious to what you have to say. Thanks

[Guest guest]

Shiva prays to Vishnu and Vishnu prays to Shiva. They are eachother's Lord and Devotee simultaneously. This is the most inspiring and beautiful relationship in hinduism. Indeed they are the same.

[Guest guest]

There is no difference between Krishna and his physical form. So please don't come up with your own theories.

Thanks

[Guest guest]

Yeah Im just curious to what you have to say. Thanks

 

"Regarding Lord Shiva, many vaishnavites consider him to be a devotee of Krishna or Vishnu. This is most probably due to the rift between Vaishnavs and Saivas which has been occuring for thousands of years. Prabhupada gives an analogy of Milk and Yogury, Krishna is compared to Milk, and Shivji to Yogurt. They are both same yet different. One should also take into considereation the differences in the manfiestations of Lord Shiva, that certain shivas are shiv tattva, but Lord Sadasiva is no different from Krishna, he is Vishnu Tattva- non different from the Lord. Lord Shiva is also absolute in his nature. This is confirmed by Great Vaishnava Acharyas and devotees. Lord Swaminarayan to accepts this in his Shikshapatri. Sripad Vallabahcarya makes it clear in his Balbodh that Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva are identical and both are considered Parabrahma. Balbodh meaning the basics to the devotion of God. In the Chaitanya Mangala Murari Gupta too confirms this. Lord Chaitanya visits the lingaraja in southern india and Murari Gupta Comments on it. That Lord Caitanya and Lord Shiva are one and the same, and he who considers them different suffers a grave curse. In the Ramayan, Lord Rama too confirms thie absolute nature of Lord Shiva, he states that those who consider Shiva as different from him, or him different from shiva are bound to rott in hell nor attain Godhead not even in their dreams."

 

This is an incorrect mayavadi-like philosophy, trying to put everything on the same level of the Supreme simply because God is omnipresent and expands Himself. Although Lord Shiva is nearly on the platform of Vishnu, He cannot give liberation to anyone, so He is not equal to Krishna.

So to put this debate beyond any doubt here follow some conclusive quotes from our beloved spiritual masters.

 

Quoted from His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada in teachings of Lord Caitanya(p.:

 

"In the Vishnu-mantra it is said that one who considers the Supreme Lord Krishna in the same category with the demigods -be they even Brahma or Shiva- becomes at once an atheist."

(also C.C. Madhya-Lila 25.79-80)

 

Quoted from His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada in teachings of Lord Caitanya(p.308/309):

 

"Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Gosvami Maharaj has remarked that there is a class of common men who claim that anyone and everyone can worship the Supreme Lord according to his own invented mode of worship and still attain the Supreme personality of Godhead. They claim that one can approach the Supreme Lord either through fruitive activities, speculative knowledge, meditation or austerity and that any of the methods will succeed. They claim that one can accept many different paths and still reach the same place, and they maintain that the Supreme Absolute Truth may be worshiped either as the Goddess Kali, or Goddess Durga, or Lord Shiva, Ganesha, Rama, Hari or Brahma. In short, they maintain that it does not matter how the Absolute Truth is addressed, for all names are one and the same. They give and example of a man with many names;if he is called by any of those names, he will answer.

Such views may be very pleasing to an ordinary person, but they are full of misconceptions. One who worships the demigods, motivated by material lust, cannot attain the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If one worships the demigods, the external energy of the Lord can award some results, but this is not to say that one can attain the Supreme Lord by such worship. Indeed their worship is discouraged in Bhagavad-Gita."

 

To expand on the milk-yoghurt example I quote:

 

"Yogurt is a preparation of milk, but still yogurt CANNOT be used as milk. Similarly, Lord Shiva is an expansion of Krishna, but he CANNOT act as Krishna, nor can we derive the spiritual restoration from Lord Shiva that we derive from Krishna. The essential difference is that Lord Shiva has a connection with material nature, but Vishnu or Lord Krishna has nothing to do with material nature. In S.B 10.88.3 it is stated that Lord Shiva is a combination of three kinds of transformed consciousness known as vaikarika, taijasa and tamasa. The Vishnu incarnation, although master of the modes of goodness within each universe, is in no way in touch with the influence of material nature. Although Vishnu is equal to Krishna, Krishna is THE ORIGINAL SOURCE."

 

Another quoted example: The demon Ravana was very powerful, but when Krishna in the form of Ramachandra desired to kill him, no one could protect him. Ravana was a great devotee of Lord Shiva and was praying to Lord Shiva, "please come save me from this danger." But Lord Shiva did not come. Then Parvati, Lord Shiva's wife, asked Lord Shiva, "What is this? He is such a great devotee and has served you so much, and now he is in danger and is asking your help. Why are you not going to help him?" Then Lord Shiva replied, "My dear Parvati, what shall I do? I cannot give him protection. It is not possible. Why shall I go?" Therefore, if God wants to kill someone, no one can give him protection and if God wants to protect someone, no one can kill him."

 

"In the Chaitanya Mangala, Murari Gupta too confirms this(the Shiva&Krishna being equal)"

 

What is actually meant by this is that the pure devotee is to be considered as good as God. Since Shiva is considered to be the greatest devotee of Lord Krishna it would be a huge offense not to take the prasada. We too consider our acarya's to be as good as God, because out of their causeless mercy, empowered by the Supreme Lord, they spread the glories of the Krishna, and prepare for us the road for our deliverance.

 

Hope this clarifies things!

 

Haribol!

[Guest guest]

Yeahh Thaanxx, but im confusedd still, why would Vallabhacharya say that then? You never addressed that. He must have said it for a reason.

 

thanx

 

[Guest guest]

It all depends on what you mean by Shiva

[Guest guest]

what do you mean

[Guest guest]

"Yeahh Thaanxx, but im confusedd still, why would Vallabhacharya say that then? You never addressed that. He must have said it for a reason."

 

You said:

 

"Mahaprabhu Sripad Vallabhacharya, who is the second leading authority in all vaishnava lineages."

 

The following quote from a letter of Srila Prabhuphada makes it clear this is not accepted:

 

"Sridhara Svami is accepted as the original commentator on the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Perhaps you know that there is an edition of the Srimad-Bhagavatam by Krsna Sankara Sastri "abhinavah sukah" Vedantacarya, Sahitya-tirtha, sribhagavatasudhanidhi, from Ahmedabad. In his book he has given almost all the important commentaries on the Bhagavatam, as follows: 1. Sridhara Svami 2. Sri Vamsidhara 3. Sri Gangasahaya 4. Srimad Viraraghavacarya 5. Srimad Vijayadhvaja Tirtha 6. Srimad Jiva Gosvami 7. Srimad Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura 8. Srimad sukadeva 9. Gosvami Sri-giridharalal (Vallabhacarya Sampradaya) 10. Sri Bhagavat-prasadacarya, etc...

 

"but im confusedd still, why would Vallabhacharya say that then?"

 

Among all commentaries, Sridhara Svami's is given the first position. This parampara has existed for a very long time. It was also accepted during Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's time, but Sri Vallabhacarya violated the system. Instead of acknowledging Sridhara Svami's pre-eminent position, he wanted to take it himself. I am enclosing herewith some photocopies of the important verses from the original book Caitanya Caritamrta that specifically deal with the subject matter. These verses are from Antya lila, Chapter 7, entitled "Lord Caitanya meets Vallabha Bhatta". I would like to draw your attention to verse 113 on page 55 where Vallabha Bhatta says: "In my commentary on Srimad-Bhagavatam," he said, "I have refuted the explanations of Sridhara Svami. I cannot accept his explanations."

 

Moreover, verse 114 states: "Whatever Sridhara Svami reads he explains according the circumstances. Therefore he is inconsistent in his explanations and cannot be accepted as an authority."

 

Vallabha Bhatta's declaration certainly agitated Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Consequently, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu remarked sarcastically that He considered that anyone who did not accept the svami (or Sridhara Svami) as an authority was a prostitute. Prabhu hasi kahe; but he smiled and said this jokingly, because they were friends.

 

Although this point is very controversial, it is not based on hearsay, as you have stated, but it is authoritatively documented by the Caitanya Caritamrta. As you have written in a friendly spirit, I do not wish to discuss this point further. If you will kindly take a little trouble to read this chapter "Lord Caitanya meets Vallabha Bhatta" you will understand the whole situation. Actually Vallabha Bhatta should not have criticized Sridhara Svami, because even now Sridhara Svami is very respected. Even authorities like Sri Jiva Goswami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura mention in their commentaries, svami caranat, as we have learned it from the lotus feet of Sridhara Svami. So when Vallabha Bhatta criticized Sridhara Svami, Caitanya Mahaprabhu criticized Vallabha Bhatta strongly. This is a fact, but this does not mean that Vallabha Bhatta and Caitanya Mahaprabhu were inimical. Vallabha Bhatta honored Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as a superior. Sometimes Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would chastise Vallabha Bhatta and sometimes He would favor him, because this was their relationship. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would never refuse the occasional invitations of Vallabha Bhatta."

 

Srila Prabhupada Letter to Sumati Morarjee, 08-07-76

 

 

 

 

 

So, since Vallabhacarya was suffering from false pride it would seem rather foolish to take his commentaries too serious. After all, Lord Caitanya Himself deemed his commentaries useless (C.C. Antya-Lila 7.88). So it is not Vaisnava philosophy to see Shiva as equal to Krishna, but rather this is leaning towards the mayavada philosophy, so I'll leave you all with a fine quote from the Antya-Lila (2.96) which pretty much sums up all of the misconceptions brought about in this topic:

 

"The Mayavada philosophy presents such a juggelry of words that even a highly elevated devotee who has accepted Krishna as his life and soul changes his decision when he reads the Mayavada commentary on the Vedanta-sutra"

 

So just listen to the bonafide acarya's in the bonafide guruparampara, for the others merely serve as unwelcome distraction to your execution of devotional service.

 

Hope your doubts are cleared now!

 

Haribol!

[Guest guest]

OM NAMAH SHIVAY!!!

All glories to Paramhansa Swami Nikhileshwarananda!

HAR HAR MAHADEV!

 

Dear misinformed devotee of "neo-Krishnaism" (Iskcon),

 

Read your message by chance.

 

Let me deal with a couple of points you trumpeted loudly.

 

1. "Krishna as next to Siva which to us Vaishnavas is a blasphemy"

Re: This statement propagated by Prabhupada and followers is a bright example of your form of neo-Krishnaism. I rightly call it that because

the whole system is based on marketing and advertisement. Listen to us, buy our books and do free service for us! That's it.

Lord Shiva is a Vedic and pre-Vedic God. Vedas are full of Shiva worship at every step. Shiva worship has always been highly esteemed in the Vedic culture. Shiva is Mahadev - Lord of the lords! ANd to put him next to Krishna will be very gladly expectable to Krishna! If the case is otherwise as claimed by prabhupada, then I would like to see quotes by Lord Krishna himself ! Since you say that you quote Bhagwat Geeta, then please give me one quote from Bhagwat Geeta where shri Krishna says that it is a blasphemy to put Lord Shiva next to me! What you just said is a speculation which has arisen due to your a) ignorance, b) your devotion and attachment to the Krishna form. There is no Vedic basis or realization behind it. Quoting books is easy. Speak with realization. Krishna did what he did. What can you do? Read books to others?

 

Did you read the Mahabharata of which Bhagwat Geeta is a small part?

How many times did Krishna pray and go into ascetic and elaborate sadhnas dedicated to Lord Shiva? After he received the Deeksha from Rishi Upmanyu in Pashupat Yog he became a complete Shaiv! Because in order to do Pashupat vrat and sadhna you have to abide by all the strict rules and become staunch Shaiv. And he was granted a wonderful son amongst other boons from the Lord of the Lords - Sadashiva! But you cannot read it. Because Prabhupada instructed you not to read any other literature except for the one that bears his translation stamp (which is completely one sided biased)! And this particular part Prabhupada ignored to translate!

 

For your kind information I would like to "QUOTE" a small part from the Mahabharata to disperse your cult's widespread misconception! Here:

From The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva

Section XIV

 

Krishna and 16000 Wives (part 1)

 

The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….

 

The puissant Sankara then, devoted to the good of the universe, looked at the goddess Uma and the lord of the celestials and myself also, and thus spoke unto me":

 

"We know, O Krishna, that Thou, O slayer of foes, art filled with the greatest devotion towards us. Do what is for Thy good. My love and affection for Thee is very great. Do Thou ask for eight boons. I shall verily give them unto Thee. O Krishna, O best of all persons, tell me what they are, O chief of the Yadavas. Name what Thou wishest. However difficult of attainment they be, Thou shalt have them still".

 

The blessed Krishna said: "Bowing my head with great joy unto that mass of energy and effulgence, I said these words unto that great Deity, with a heart filled with gladness, -firmness in virtue, the slaughter of foes in battle, the highest fame, the greatest might, devotion to Yoga, Thy adjacence, and hundreds upon hundreds of children- these are the boons I solicit of Thee".

 

"So be it" said Sankara, repeating the words I had uttered. After this, the Mother of the universe, the upholder of all things, who cleanses all things, who is the spouse of Sarva (Siva), that vast receptacle of penances said with a restrained soul these words unto me:

 

"The puissant Mahadeva has granted Thee, O sinless one, a son who shall be named Samva. Do Thou take from me also eight boons which Thou choosest. I shall certainly grant them to Thee"

 

Bowing unto her my head, I said unto her:

 

"I solicit from thee non-anger against the Brahmanas (Brahmins), grace of my father, a hundred sons, the highest enjoyments, love for my family, the grace of my mother, the attainment of tranquillity and peace, and cleverness in every act!"

 

Uma said: "It shall be even so, O Thou that art possessed of prowess and puissance equal to that of a celestial. I never say what is untrue. Thou shalt have sixteen thousand wives. Thy love for them and theirs also for Thee shall be unlimited. From all Thy kinsmen also, Thou shalt receive the highest affection. Thy body too shall be most beautiful. Seven thousand guests will daily feed at Thy palace."

 

Vasudeva continued: "Having thus granted me boons both the god and the goddess disappeared there and then with their Ganas. All these wonderful facts, I related fully to that brahmana of great energy, viz., Upamanyu (from whom I had obtained the Diksha before adoring Mahadeva). Bowing down unto the great God, Upamanyu said these words to me" :

 

Upamanyu said: "There is no deity like Sarva. There is no end or refuge like Sarva. There is none that can give so many or such high boons. There is none that equals him in battle."

_

 

Also Krishna told the greatness of the Lord Shiva to Bhishma lying on arrow bed.

This alone should be able to satisfy your first point of blasphemy foolishness! But the Lord does not reveal himself to people of low intelligence, so may be you just may not chose to believe or accept this QUOTE. Moreover its not translated by Prabhupada! Sorry!

In fact your subject line read: where do we quote from?

Well, We have loads of Vedic and pre-Vedic literature to quote from. Its the followers of Iskcon who are limited in their quotes as the literature that Prabhupada translated is less than that he couldn't or didn't want to translate!

 

2. Your second point - "why didn't Shiva speak the Bhagwad Gita?

Re: I can't help but laugh at your ignorance of Vedic knowledge.

You should read the Ramayana as well! You chant the name of Rama and don't even read Ramayana? Or is it balarama?

When Lord Ramachandra was searching for Shrimati Sita Devi, the event of his initiation into Shaiv pratice takes place by Agastya Rishi. He was performce strict penance and finally Lord Shiva with Shri Parvat appears before him with all their 'ganaas' and attributes.

The 'samvad' or the discourse that took place between the two is known as 'Shiv Geeta' and if you live in India, you can find a copy from the Gita Press the most authoritative Vaishnava press in India or the Venkateshwar Press. In this discussion Lord Ramachandra poses various questions to Lord Shiva and the later illuminates him on the subject if life, God and existence. The content is very similar to the Bhagwad Gita spoken by Krishna thousands of years later to Arjuna his disciple and spiritual warrior. At one point Rama says I m Vishnu myself and in this human existence I'm feeling the anxiety. please explain me why? And the Lord reveals his true form to him. The Virat swarupa or the celestial universal form of Lord Sadashiva where in Rama sees all the galaxies earth and then all the ten avataras or incarnations of Vishnu including the Krishna avatara and his slaying of Kamsa!

 

What can you say after this? Obviously you haven't even read the Shiva Gita! Because Shiva sampradayas are not run by marketing MBAs or previous business minds now running the BBT and GBC.

Don't take my harsh words as plain criticism. I know what Iskcon is at its very core and know most of its Gurus closely. I respect many of them for spreading Krishna devotion and trying in their own sadhnas, until they come to baseless criticism of Lord Shiva. Then they look like members of a political party.

Ananda, did you hear about Shiva Lilas? Who would tell you?

Read Shiva Purana at least! or Rudra Samhita!

Did you read the lila of Lord Vishnu preaying to Lord Shiva everyday with a thousand lotuses? One day one of the flowers was missing so he plucked out his own eye to make the counting complete. Lord Shiva appeared before him and presented him with the invincible 'Sudarshan Chakra'! One that you see on Krishna's little finger! Do you know its story? If Vishnu can pray to Shiva, what what's so full of blasphemy if we put Lord Shiva next to a Krishna idol? What Ananda? Did Prabhupada taught you this? He has even changed the name Vishnu everywhere to Krishna because his devotion was to Krishna, but that doesn't mean that Lord Shiva has become any lower! This is politics! There is no realization behind it. It is a matter of 'shraddha' or devotion to a particular form. Your attachment to it. Attachment comes from ego. Its a matter of reading and accepting. Its not based on experience.

If you go to Bhojpur you will still see standing the great Shiv temple built for the Queen Kunti who was also the aunt of Lord Krishna.

Krishna used to touch her feet and she was a staunch Shiva devotee!

 

What's wrong with you guys? eh..? How can Prabhupada or a 500 years old Gaudiya Sampradaya (with all my respects to them!) change the Vedic culture? How? Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was difinitely Godly! You can even claim him to be Krishna's incarnation, but where did he curse or put down Lord Shiva? Are you above him? Yes he said Chanting Hare-Krishna in Kaliyuga is the only way. But it doesn't mean you blasphemy Lord Shiva!

You are also claiming that Siva is not consciousness, but Krishna is!

How? Krishna is consciousness I agree! But I do not agree that Shiva is not! Shiva is all permeating Supreme Lord! HE is the MAHADEV! The Lord of the Lords! Tho read about the echelon above Shiva who created him read Shiv maha puran that gives clear description of his appearance. The Rudra and Sankarshana from Gita are a different aspects of the Lord Sadashiva. Read it first.

Read the appearance of the fire pillar (ShivaLinga) that spanned throughout the whole universe and beyond that the Vishnu (Krishna!) and Brahma were not able to find beginning or end of! Then the voice from it said 'I'm Sadashiva! I'm without a beginning or an end!"

You mentioned the two aspects of soul and super-soul. You can calll the Super-soul as Krishna but we may prefer to call Him as Shiva. We don't fight over it. But your agenda is not to attain spiritual heights but to claim satisfy your own ego by claiming who is superior? Shiva devotees gladly go to Vaishnav temples. Why don't you? Why do you keep on blaspheming Lord Shiva and His devotees?

Don't you even know that the great Lord himself said "those who are my devotees but criticize Vishnu (Krishna!) will go to hell! I'm int he heart of Vishnu and He is in my heart! This is the secret of secrets!"

On the other hand Lord Vishnu made a similar statement! Are you planning to go to hell? Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh - the Hindu Trinity is considered at the same level. You can even see their idols with heads joins together in 'Hindu' Temples. Oh, you may say there is no such religion as Hinduism? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Prabhupada again!

Okay! It's the Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism!)! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wake up guys! You are doing a great job by propagating Krishna Consciousness but just as you earn some good karma from it, you almost immediately ruin it and earn ten times bad karma by your 'Aparadha' of blasphemy and criticism of Shiva and Shiva devotees!

 

When you do that with enthusiasm - don't you even remember what ten 'aparadhas' to the holy name of the Lord were written down by Jeev Goswami?

Forget your interpretations of 'shambhu', shiva, rudra etc!

And Bhagwatam was not the only purana wrtitten by Shri Vyasadeva!

 

 

Jai Bhole Nath ki!

 

Nitesh

[Guest guest]

You are a ignorant demi-human! Damn it!

What's your status to claim this?

You don't posses the qualifications to reach even a demiGod!

And you show the guts to call Lord Shiva a demi-God?

 

[Guest guest]

Krishna was a great Shaiv! Read Mahabharata where you'll the austerities that Krishna performed to please Lord of the Lords Mahadeva Sadashiva!!

 

Pray to Shiva so that he may give you mercy. He is all merciful and easiyl pleased! And pray to Krishna! For he is the great Shaiva!!

 

Hari Bol!

[Guest guest]

I do not live in India. Do you know of any internet websites where I can get a hold of the Siva geeta or the Rudra Samhita. In YogaVaashishta, Vashishta at one point also indicates to Rama that Siva is the ultimate.