Psychedelic drugs

[Guest guest]

Ive heard that this can be achieved from yaga and also tantric sex, i think its called raising the kundalini energy to open the chakras, does anyone know anything about this?

[Guest guest]

"If people want to quote the scriptures thats fine with me if you belive it, the problem I find with them is this, that if I quote the word "Love" to someone, they will have a completely different understanding of it than I do, Love basically means affection, I will have a different way of showing affection than someone else, therefore a single word may mean something completely different to what I meant it to be. Now if a person is translating something like sanskrit to hindi, they will translate it according to their perception of the meaning of that word. Now if somethings been translated from sanskrit to hindi to gujarati to english and by not only tens but possibly hundreds of scholars, I believe that the true essence of what those original scriptures meant is lost. "

 

This is exactly my point that is exaclty what I meant by the word meaning relationship being a one to many mapping. This is WHY it is important not just to read these things, these hundreds of translations are just words etc but to actually go to a teacher who is in an authorized disciplic line. This is how the meanings are preserved and meanings to meanings are one to one mappings.

 

I did not think that you were attacking anyone nor did I feel attacked. People generally think they are being attacked when someone comes with questions that make them unsure, that shake their beliefs. But in the words of Paramhansa Yoganada "The truth is not afraid of questions". It just seemed to me that you were misunderstanding what was meant by consciousness in the religious sense. Definitely there is material consciousness and these drugs do play a part. The quotes I had shown do not have to do with belief but they would show that this is the case (that the drugs deal with the material consciousness). There is acknowledgement of drugs doing something but that this is not the ultimate. The following from the geeta also shows this:

 

Chapter 9, Verse 20.

Those who study the Vedas and drink the soma juice, seeking the heavenly planets, worship Me indirectly. They take birth on the planet of Indra, where they enjoy godly delights.

 

Chapter 9, Verse 21.

When they have thus enjoyed heavenly sense pleasure, they return to this mortal planet again. Thus, through the Vedic principles, they achieve only flickering happiness.

 

I am saying YES you can influence Material consciousness by a chemical effect. There is no doubt to this, but this is not the inner meaning of the scripture. It is not this consciousness that is talked about in the upanishads or in the geeta. It is because of this misconception that Lord Buddha said that he is liberated from that consciousness by which one trying to describe him might describe him.. He does not say he had an EXPANDED consciousness he said he was freed from it. That lower consciousness is the one that can be infuenced and the higher one cannot be described, or talked about properly even. That is why that it is not something to be realised, it is something already realized.

 

 

"felt presence of immediate experience"

please explain I don't quite understand what you are saying here and how exaclty does it not work for religion? please elaborate.

 

"They say its a question of faith, that alone should tell people that religion is subjective."

Definitely Everything is subjective we live in a subjective universe. Objectivity is just standardized subjectivity.

 

 

"We are also told that god x is suppreme, do you believe??? if god x is mainly worshiped in india and you try and apply its dharma to the indegenous people of south america, it doesnt work, therefore how can god x be suppreme if their dharma is not universal??? "

 

Because god is worshipped in one form in one place does not mean he has to be worshipped in the same form all over. What exactly do you mean by Dharma? I think you are confusing Dharma and Dogma. What problems do you see arising? I don't see any problem at all. You must understand that scripture is twofold. The Smriti and the sruti. The sruti is directly revealed, absolute truth, this will not change at any time any place. Then there is the Smriti, which are generally laws, stipulations that are dependent on time and place. If you look at the smriti pertaining to one place it is ridiculous to try and apply it all over the world. That is never an issue nor is ever implied. The smriti will not even be true in the same place over a period of time. It depends on social circumstances and social evolution. If this is what you were looking at, things like what to eat, what to do, behaviours etc, then of course it would not work. This is just ritualism.

 

 

"To elaborate the question, Has any religion not wanted your money, time (worship, reading, testing for exams, seva, etc), patience, and even your love and faith?

"

No religion ever wanted anything from anyone. The priest or pundit may want money, time. You are ascribing a want to a non living entitiy?? God doesn't NEED your love or faith, it does not benefit HIM. Besides this ,if you want to know anything you have to invest time money, reading, etc..why do you think religion should be any different?? Haven't you invested time, reading faith in Gnosticism now (if that is what you follow I am not sure). How much money do people now spend in secular education? They can't force it down your throat. It is there, if you WANT to learn about religion or secular education you obviously have to pay money, invest time reading etc. I don't quite get what you are getting at here. If I am misunderstanding let me know.

 

Regarding those studies it would be interesting to see if they have similar reactions when spied upon, with a video camera or something, this may tell about the localization of the effect. If you know if they did this let me know how it turned out.

 

Anyway I am really interested to know what exactly you mean by this in particular:

 

"However if you take the felt presence of immediate experience and apply it to religion, it fails"

[Guest guest]

Enlightenment cannot be had by tantric sex. By yoga YES. I hope you don't think that tantra= tantric sex. This is far from the truth. It is just because people are so sex oriented now that they would like to believe this. It is completely untrue.

 

IN the Bhairava Tantra 112 methods of absorption are taught, sex is one of them. The import was not that by having sex you can gain enlightenment, what Lord Shiva said about sex was the same he said for anything else, including : staring at a wall, looking at the sky, or just gazing into space or anything that you find sensual delight in like eating. He said basically at the pinnacle of the delight if you remain there mentally without wavering that is the essence of bliss. It has to do with one pointedness of mind and the dissolution of the ego. One pointedness of mind comes in things with great concentration, this is why intense sporting situations wher people concentrate so much are so enjoyable and why people like them so much. Their minds become absolutely focussed. When in the moment the person hits the winning run or makes winning shot, that one thought that is in the mind dissolves, that is the essence of bliss. That is why one pointed devotion is talked about all over.

 

Yoga is not physical exercise if that is what you are thinking too. that is just Hatha Yoga.

 

Regarding chakras etc:

 

11-13. From an absolute standpoint, Bhairava is not associated with letters, nor with phonemes, nor with the three Shakti, nor with breaking through the chakras, nor with any other belief, and Shakti does not constitute his essence. All these concepts taught in the scriptures are aimed at those whose mind is still too immature to grasp the supreme reality. They are mere appetizers meant to spur aspirants toward ethical behavior and spiritual practice so that they can realize some day that the ultimate nature of Bhairava is not separate from their own Self.

 

Tantric sex does not raise the kundalini. Any kind of sex will only serve to dissipate it. You must SUBLIMATE it by practice of hatha yoga. combined with regular habits of work study etc. The most important thing is to find a true guru who can guide you.

[Guest guest]

I noticed they talked about how Krsna was blue and Vishnu was blue because they represented mushrooms... and they explained Krnsa always having a cow next to him because the mushrooms grew on cow dung ( I suppose they overlooked the fact that he was a cowherder). Interesting that they didnt offer an explanation for why Rama was blue.

 

[Guest guest]

Loss of ego

Access to other dimensions

Contact with other entities

Access to a reality more real than the one we experience

Increase in visual accuity

Reflection on ones life

Feeling of one with nature and everything

Ability to literate

 

Can you please explain or direct me to a resource telling more about these feelings.. Especially things like a reality more real than the one we experience..

[Guest guest]

"Tell me has there ever been a religion that never wanted anything of you?"

 

Yes, this Krishna Consciousness. But it does make me want to do something for God.

[Guest guest]

soma was a mushroom that is a fact. deny it your a serious fool. the blue is called wode from the animita muscarian mushroom, gods are blue because of this. deny that your also a fool.

 

shrooms helped me see the hype spoke of in this topic and i still except krishna as the object of worship but i do not deny that soma was mushroom. i refuse to use it but it made me see that krishna is the way.

 

most of the posters and members on this forum are deluded or liers and parrots. that is what irks me i come here to see the madness on this site occasionally and some of it is good too.

[Guest guest]

Nobody EVER denied soma was a mushroom.. It is a mushroom from which they made a juice that was drank and it is a hallucinogen nobody is denying that... I looked at the video on gnosticism on the website that was posted. It is amazing to see how they purposely mispronounce things like the roman leter pronounced "KI" that they pronounced as "chee" to make something sound like jesus.. Krishna being crucified, etc are just not true, The aradanishwara was viewed as a symbol for a mushroom as well. What nonsense. IF you want to learn about the meaning of these symbols go to Chinmaya Mission or Sivananda Mission and ask one of the Swamis what exactly do these things mean. Instead you have decided to take the word of people who are analysing the scripture PURPOSELY LOOKING FOR THINGS. YES ignore the other 99% of the scriptures where Lord Shiva actually teaches about the absolute reality, ignore the Bhagavad Geeta and the Uddhava Geeta, the astavakra geeta, the thousands of writings that talk about the philosophy and pick and choose 1 line here and one line there to justify to themselves their drug abuse.

 

 

If this is what people think enlightenment is that you see all the colours bursting in your head, someone has really misled them, Go and do some research about Shankaracarya. Krsna, Rama, Vishnu are not blue because of a mushroom. Blue stands for the infinite expansion, the sea is blue the sky is blue.. they have looked at 0.005% of hindu scripture and then come to the conclusion that the whole thing is based on taking drugs.. now that is a joke.

YES the RgVed does have a whole book dedicated to soma. No one is denying that. What I have said over and over and I will say it again is that mushrooms, hallucinogens only give material visions, perceptions, thoughts. They admit this and I showed you that in the geeta Krsna says that if one takes Soma and studies the vedas with the aim of getting material gain, then they will be promoted to the heavenly planets, these altered states of mind where you can perceive different things and he says that you only achieve FLICKERING HAPPINESS in this way and you will return to the earthly planets, the normal state of mind. He then goes on to say that when one attains to his abode he never returns. So once more it is not that I have said Soma is not a mushroom or a drug or that it is used I am just saying don't think that the altered mental states that are achieved were what were meant by enlightment or that having all these colours bursting in your head The absolute reality does not deal with these things.

 

Look I don't see anything wrong in taking a substance to achieve a feeling, it is just a feeling, as long as it doesn't harm anyone there is no big deal, and if you harm yourself that is your business. Today it is a problem because of the social situations, crime etc that it creates, problems with driving etc. If you get addicted to food or drugs you are still addicted, so I don't see the actual use of a substance as a moral issue. What I have said and will repeat again is that the effects are not what is meant by enlightenment. Those feelings are not realization. They may be a way to attain certain siddhis. Siddhis are not enlightenment. In past times and even now you can see sadhus taking ganja. If you do it properly anything can be a learning experience it can teach about the mind and the material consciousness but they have nothing to do with the enlightened state which is independent of matter. Look how many sages have attained the same siddhis without the use of drugs. They have never regarded them as anything because they are all material. Paramahansa Yoganada was even said to raise the dead. Swami Sivananda often in his writings warn people of getting preoccupied with the powers that reveal themselves to the yogi in meditation. These men NEVER took drugs. THESE THINGS DO NOT BRING ENLIGHTENMENT they only bring altered experience. The enlightened state is not one of colours bursting in or out of your head and you there watching it. These men were LIVING examples of the ancient vedic religion and they did not take it, why not look at their thoughts rather than some people who are obviously misled. Anyway as long as their intent is not drug use but to find the truth if this even serves to make them look at religion deeper it will be good.

 

[Guest guest]

IF you go to the temples a lot of times the murtis will actually be BLACK. Vishnu is "blue as the raincloud". Shiva is fair and covered in ash. what about Brahma? What about the other vishnu incarnations? Matsya, Varaha, Vamana, Narasimha, Parshurama, Vyasadeva,Kapila, Buddha. WHY were not they blue?? Wy was the first incarnation a fish? was it sea mushrooms? And then the lion? Because the king had eaten mushrooms so He came to rip him open to get the mushrooms from his stomach??? Why did they only talk about Krishna and not RAMA???? Rama was there long before Krishna, why isnt there anything like this in the ramayana? They could only use Krishna as an example because he was a cowherder so they could link him with the mushroom story. Funny how they are so selective. Please, be real, why do all the swamis wear orange? Maybe they ate a lot of oranges to get a sugar induced high..

 

Why does shiva sit on a tigerskin? Why does vishnu hold a lotus a club a conch and a disc? What do these have to do with mushrooms?

 

Maybe the cow is sacred because it was the only animal that they took milk from, this milk was used to drink, to make butter for food and for sacrifices for prayer. No other animal's milk was used to make ghee for the sacrifices.

 

IF people want to take drugs take it and suffer the consequences or enjoy the benefits whichever way you view it. Don't try to warp a religion into something else to justify your own desires.

[Guest guest]

please you all are so full of your selves and so knowlagable. read all day and parrot all day i pay no mind. actions are in the chanting and the 4 principals. period mushrooms are nice fun but now it is time to grow up.

[Guest guest]

In stories like Ramayana, some Siva stories, Mahabharata and even in the Vedas there are descriptions of people and Gods and even devotees taking intoxicants. For instance the soma rasa which Lord Indra enjoys so much or Sugriva getting all intoxicated while he's supposed to look for mother Sita. It might have been allright in other yugas but in Kaliyuga if you don't want to be influenced by kali you shouldn't take intoxicants because at the beginning of Kaliyuga when Pariksit caught Kali and forgave him for his offence he granted him the boon to live in, I believe, 5 places within Pariksit's kingdom and 1 of them was intoxicants. But I believe I shouldn't speak since at the moment I smoke cigarettes myself.

[Guest guest]

That is undoubtedly true, the point I was trying to make was that although it was done they never claimed that that was what enlightenment was, If you looked at the Gnosticism video that was posted you would see at the end they did some CGI and they showed the kundalini rising and bursting out of the top of the head and all over was like a disco!!!

 

All these things do are bring about altered mental state.

 

"God doesn't mind your shortcomings, he minds your indifference"

- Paramhansa Yogananda

[jagatpurush]

on this thread. however, i wish that people who are answering questions/representing the Vedic view would log in, so that we can know who is saying what. thanks, jpd

[Guest guest]

Oops sorry I never bothered to register, although I do post quite a lot. I find it better to remain anonymous so people don't build up an image of the poster and then read the post with a pre-fabricated bias. Unfortunately with anonymity the down side is that some people use anonymity as an excuse for insulting people.

[Guest guest]

I think some drugs that grow naturally can be good for you.I think its really ignorant to say all srugs are bad especially when they grow naturally upon the planet,also not everyone one that does drugs ends up killing , murdering or stealing.On a different not what does 'hare krishna ' mean?

 

[Guest guest]

Well all plants grow naturally upon the earth, the good ones that are not harmful are used for medicine, the ones that are bad for you are called drugs (in the bad sense not in the pharmaciutical sense). So it would be ignorant to say that all PLANTS are bad.. Drugs are just the subset of plants that are bad for you.

[Guest guest]

"I think its really ignorant to say all srugs are bad"

 

Using drugs for sense gratification,temporary physical enhancements or selfdeluding purposes is always an ignorant act whether they grow naturally or are made artificially. Using for say marihuana due to a prescription for some medical treatment only is a totally different thing cause in that case the user is not using it for selfdelusion and sense gratification.

[Guest guest]

The connotation is what is important here. If someone tells you they are taking drugs, it usually implies an addiction or at least use for gratification, as stated in the above post. They are a drug addict as opposed to someone being treated using a drug,morphine, marijuana whatever. So it is really the connotation that we have to look at.

 

[Guest guest]

"There has never been a time when you or I or These kings did not exist"

Krishna

 

Try everything that leads to love.

[Guest guest]

right and since drugs don't lead to love but to ignorance, don't use them.

[Guest guest]

I am actually open-minded to psychedelics. If it was not for experimenting with psychedelics I would have not have progressed with my interests in mysticism and knowledge. Luckily at the time when I was getting over pot I was handed a copy of the Sri Isopanisad I was forever changed and led to chant. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.

We all have to experiment in order to find our path in this confusing and disorganized Kaliyuga Age. Srila Prabhupada was led into the right area when he chose the hippies to initiate into Krsna-Consciousness. They obviously had the right mindset of Surrender. The Beatles chanted Hare Krsna and that is why they became so world famous and now they are established as icons of this Age. They literally changed the world along with Srila Prabhupada, if they did not pave the way would we even have ISKCON Temples here in America? Probably not. Minds had to be opened and so did Hearts. I was lucky to be born in 1972 so that I could experience the aftermath of everything.

Anyway back to the drugs. Magic Mushrooms come from cow dung and it is considered to be pure and auspicious since it comes from cows. Of course the cows in America are not Surabhi cows so it's probably not a good idea to ingest hallucinogenics. I'm liberal about this myself. Shamans are equivalent to Rishis, and it is good to have association with someone who is qualified to give adequate information based on spiritual visions of the spiritual realm. Of course people like that are very rare these days. I happened to meet a Native American healer in an exotic gift shop and she luckily led me on my path to be a Hare Krishna! I definitely saw Syamasundara in her.

 

I have no plans to experiment with hallucinogenics any time soon, I find the Hare Krsna Mahamantra to be much more revealing since it is non-different than Krsna. I'm sure you can find Lord Krsna in any drug, but the fact is that it is a more dangerous route and why even bother? It is only a brief experience. Everyone is basically looking for Krsna but they are so afraid to just surrender to Him via Lord Caitanya, I cannot understand why now. But then I was also once where every so-called non-devotee was before, in oblivion. Luckily I got out and all of the demons I knew left me alone.

 

Mahatma Amaranth Kalki Das

[jagatpurush]

psychedelics do not lead to "love" by any means. they, in fact, tend to increase the false ego. one time somebody on acid in SF started going off in Prabhupada's class and he said "I am God." and Prabhupada said "You are not God, you are dog. Now sit down." Hari bol!

 

anyway, if you want to see drugs without love just think of Jim Morrison (at least, as he's portrayed in the movie, The Doors). yeah he does drugs, but he is just the most selfish, self-centered person imaginable. i believe that a human falls from grace when he/she ceases to show courtesy to other humans.

 

thanks

[Guest guest]

Firstly, i would like to say that i don't mean this to cause offense to anybody, so please don't take any.

 

I was surprised to read, that people had somewhat overlooked intoxication, and its importance in KC. As i'm sure everyone is aware of here, taking a drug is an intoxicant, like drinking alcohol is. Srila Prabhupada didn't drink tea or coffee as caffeine was a stimulant- a legal drug, but nonetheless, a drug. We should follow what His Grace said and did.

Drugs may be the window to seeing other worldly things, and while some people have been extremely lucky to see Krishna in their halluciagenic induced state, it does not mean that we should all start or continue to take drugs which influence this. No intoxication is a rule that should be followed in order to progress in KC. It may be hard to do so at first, but if it is challenging, an increased amount of chanting will always help. Krishna is more than willing to help His devotees.

Taking a drug to see Krishna, is not service to Krishna. We are not offering service unto His lotus feet. This service is free from all karma and attatchment, and it fulfills our every desire because while we are pleasing the Lord and satisfying Him, we become pleased, that is our position.

Drugs influence bad behaviour, or more-over, actions we would not contemplate while sober. It has a bad affect on the brain and the mind- so how can this be a good thing? We would not contemplate serving the Lord in such a drug induced state.

It's obviously normal for anyone who has used drugs and seen Krishna to have conflicting questions and answers, but i think you will find, that KC does not encourage the use of drugs in any way.