Lord Brahma addressing Lord Shiva

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

 

I am going to cause a lot of offence by suggesting the following, but in Srimad Bhagavatam, Lord Brahma says he knows Lord Shiva as the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation (SB 4.6.42).

 

In the purport, Srila Prabhupada says that Lord Brahma is saying so because in their original positions, Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva are identical. I thought it is important to take the scripture as it is. If Lord Brahma is worshipping Lord Shiva as the Supreme Brahman, then why is it wrong for others to do so?

 

Lord Brahma addresses Lord Shiva: "My dear Lord, devotees who have fully dedicated their lives unto your lotus feet certainly observe your presence as Paramatma in each and every being" SB 4.6.46

 

Does this mean both Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna are Paramatma? I thought the Paramatma is one? Therefore how can both be Paramatma?

 

 

I would appreciate some enlightenment on this matter.

 

Hare Krishna,

Your Servant

[Guest guest]

Prayer on shiva by Bramha is correct, and Shiva is the Mahadev & all pervading bramhan, the universal self, the perferctly rennounced, the formless.

 

Krihsna is the character of such a spiritually realised being in the living world. how would the world be if everyone where to be spiritually realized in the world and everyone behaved by their true spiritual nature. Each and every character will be so unique and different, and yet in sat chit ananda. Dasa avatar is just an example of uniqueness. And it is devine and it's our true spiritual nature.

 

To aspire to be surrendered to our true spiritual nature and also allow for others to achieve the same, is the true devotion to Krishna.

[Guest guest]

"Shiva is the Mahadev & all pervading bramhan, the universal self, the perferctly rennounced, the formless."

 

But Shiva exists eternally in a form - i.e. the form that sits on Mount Kailash with Parvatidevi - and the same Lord Shiva that inhabits Mahesh-Dhama, the expansion of Sadashiva who devotes himself to Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavana.

 

"Krihsna is the character of such a spiritually realised being in the living world"

 

But Krishna is also living eternally in the spiritual world in His own abode, Goloka Vrindavana. Therefore how can He be relegated to just being in the living world?

 

"it's our true spiritual nature"

 

Our true spiritual nature is to be sac-cid-ananda - however never is it written that we can actually be avataras of the Lord.

 

So the question is still not answered. How can Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna simultaneously be Paramatma when Paramatma is one?

 

I would appreciate some enlightenment on the matter.

 

Hare Krishna,

Your Servant.

[Guest guest]

Lord in Bagawad geetha appeals to arjuna for realization of Brahman.

 

And admits that bramhan realization is difficult. Therefore suggest certain options as alternatives out of compassion.

 

You guys want to know from Krishna that the next-best is as good as the best. This is ragging or in other words this can't be called bakthy.

 

What you need to know is while you may aim to realize the brahman, and this might take time or life-times, the alternatives can be followed for better progress towards spirituality. Our aim should be the same, darted on brahman realization auspiciously named as Shiva, all the time.

 

Krishna says creation came from Bramhan in Bagawat geetha. The non-spiritual keep focusing on creator as the highest, and these leads to whole lot of confusion. And why wouldn't there be questions to clarify

 

 

Overwhemed by creation and aiming for bakthy on creator is

 

not equivalent to

 

aiming for spiritual realization, overwhelmed by bramhan all pervasive, and seeing yourself as part of it. And thereafter uncovering the true nature in you of spiritual being.

 

It's is said that the true nature (Krisha) is packaged in the soul & travels from janma to janma. The egoistic personality which all of us focus upon so much dies with the body. So Shiva and Krisha, the bramhan & it's true nature of ones own spirituality are one and same, inseperable.

 

The true nature of the spiritual being is call the Guru. And therefore it's only with the grace of guru, that Bramhan realization is obtained and thereafter the true surrender to ones own true nature begins.

 

Surrender to ones own true nature and krishna is impossible for the non-spiritualist. Shedding the personality of egoitic nature itself is surrender, and that's what Krishna comments in most of the alternatives to Branhman realization

[Guest guest]

 

"And admits that bramhan realization is difficult. Therefore suggest certain options as alternatives out of compassion."

 

No he says that the bhakta acheives Brahman automatically by performing devotional service. He says those who strive for Brahman realisation by Jnana will have to eventually attain bhakti anyway - so he recommends Arjuna to take the obvious short-cut bhakti route - which takes the devotee past the stage of Brahman, Paramatma and to the stage of Bhagavan realization.

 

" next-best is as good as the best. This is ragging or in other words this can't be called bakthy"

 

I don't know what u mean by that, but if u talk about bhakti, then Krishna is clear about bhakti being the highest yoga.

 

"Our aim should be the same, darted on brahman realization auspiciously named as Shiva, all the time."

 

Where does Krishna say that we must realize Brahman named Shiva?

 

"Krishna says creation came from Bramhan in Bagawat geetha."

 

Krishna says "I am the original seed-giving father"

 

 

"aiming for spiritual realization, overwhelmed by bramhan all pervasive, and seeing yourself as part of it. "

 

But Krishna says he is the basis of the brahman - not that the brahman is the basis of Him. Therefore, surely brahman emanates from Krishna i.e. Parabrahman

 

[Guest guest]

"It's is said that the true nature (Krisha) is packaged in the soul & travels from janma to janma."

 

Krishna is not the true nature, Krishna is the Supersoul (Paramatma) who travels with the soul (Atma) from life to life. When the soul reaches self-realization it serves Bhagavan.

 

"one and same, inseperable"

 

But Bhagavad Gita describes all souls as eternally separated fragments of Krishna.

 

"The true nature of the spiritual being is call the Guru."

 

Where does Krishna say that? He says there is no entity higher than Me.

 

"Shedding the personality of egoitic nature"

 

Exactly, by serving Krishna.

 

 

But all this doesn't answer my question. I don't wanna hear lectures about realisation of the Impersonal nature of the Lord, because I alraeady know from Bahgavad-Gita that Krishna says that is not the ultimate goal...

 

...I want to hear from one of the practitioners of KC, a bhakta, to tell me exactly how one can reconcile these two things:

 

(1) Personal form of Lord is highest

(2) Yet both Krishna and Shiva are described as Paramatma.

 

Please, i only hear from some impersonalist in this forum. Can any bhakta please explain the above?

 

I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

 

Hare Krishna,

Your Servant.

[Guest guest]

"past the stage of Brahman, Paramatma and to the stage of Bhagavan realization"

 

Krishna never says in Bagawad geetha the he's above bramhan.

 

Krishna doesn't say Bakthi yoga is aboe that of nyana yoga.

 

Shiva is bramhan. Refer to slokas scriptures on Shiva outside of Bagavatham or the brahma's prayer to shiva as discussed.

 

Krishna doesn't say he creates bramhan.

 

Just the way how your egoistic personality can easily judge that impersonalist view degrade krishna, so can anyone say about the personlaist view. The devottes of personalised god believe that krihsna has similar desires to reach for you and think of you similar to the way you do of him. Krishna is more pleased if you look this way, come this way, go to pray to here/there first and then pray to krishna, look at his feet first etc. How are we mortal human thinking so high of ourselves that we know of god's desires and figure out tactics that we're sure will please him. This is degrading krishna as well.

 

Well, the concept of degrade or upgrade is all judgements and these indicate that we speak of krishna with our egoistic selves. Krishna doesn't come any closer to either sides by such arguments.

[Guest guest]

The paramatma is ONE. Where is the question of a second. That absolute reality is ONE, you are mixing concepts at different levels. From the absolute level there is Brahman alone. From the level of Differentiation there are these differences. Lord Shiva also tells sage Markandeya that there is absolutely no difference between himself, Brahma and Hari. If you believe Lord Krsna is all powerful and can be simultaneously in different places in different forms what is the difficulty. Interesting to note that same types of symbolism are used for both Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna such as the Aradanishwara, The half Shiva half paravati similar to the half Krishna half Radha, no other gods these are done for. That in itself should tell you something

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

 

Dear fellow devotee,

 

I think the address is absolutely correct. The original scripture should be respected and not just purports and own understanding.

 

Mahadev Lord Sadashiva is the supreme lord as accepted by Lord Brahma and Vishnu and there is no denying this fact! Even Lord Krishna accepts him as Supreme in Mahabharata!

And I think, a lot of people are getting confused as they were told first that Lord Krishna is the supreme lord. So they are in a confusion now as they believe that Supreme can be only one! When Lord Krishna spoke Bhagwad Gita, he spoke from his eternal form as his universal and eternal form of the supreme being as he is one with him and he is the supreme being!

It's a bit difficult to understand from the point of view of an ordinary man.

But you should not be frustrated. If Arjuna couldn't understand this secret, even when the person preaching to him was the Lord himself, how can you understand everything???

We are in Vedantism. Hence we are trying to understand GOD just by debating and reading books. But the divine consciousness is indeed beyond any understanding of books. And no theory can fully explain Him.

It is a matter of receiving direct perception in the cosmic divine consciousness and Gurus who can betow this state of samadhi upon their disciples are so rare. Others can only relate to books.

If we could understand the divine personality just by books, then Lord Krishna needn't open Arjuna's Agya chakra (divine eye or third eye) in the middle of the eyebrow and show him his universal eternal form!

He clearly gives the technique to Arjuna to meditate on his third eye here.

Before Arjun saw this, he still couldn't understand the Lord completely!

Now you can make a comparison of your level and Arjuna's level of spiritual advancement.

Hence I reject all God positioning propaganda by so called commentaries and one sided purports. I mean if we look at it objectively, commentairies are written by a person belonging to one sampradaya. His commentary is bound to be heavily influenced by his sampradaya that stresses on one or other side of the Lord. Though Srila Prabhupada made wonderful commentaries. I will also be delighted by commentaries of a person who has achieved direct vision and divine perception of the Lord!

 

Om namo bhagawate Vasudevay!

Jai Shri Ji!

 

P.S. A lot of devotees are afraid or refrain to write their real names. Why is it so? Is it to avoid controversy? Won't it be better if we knew each other since we are interacting on the same subject? Hari Bol!

[Guest guest]

Well said

[Nrsinghadev]

Haribol,

 

you said:

 

"Hence I reject all God positioning propaganda by so called commentaries and one sided purports. I mean if we look at it objectively, commentairies are written by a person belonging to one sampradaya. His commentary is bound to be heavily influenced by his sampradaya that stresses on one or other side of the Lord. Though Srila Prabhupada made wonderful commentaries. I will also be delighted by commentaries of a person who has achieved direct vision and divine perception of the Lord!"

 

I would first like to make the strong apprehension that this sort of statement is simply Vaisnava Aparadha. It is very offensive to claim that a bonafide guru isn't graced by the Supreme with direct perception of Him. By saying "though Srila Prabhupada made wonderful commentaries", it is like saying in belittlement that they are just a collection of subjective and fancy words of propaganda and nothing more. By following it up with the statement "I will also be delighted by commentaries of a person who has achieved direct vision and divine perception of the Lord!", you are knowingly or unknowingly indicating that you think His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada was in fact a mundane person and a mental speculator without actual spiritual realization. Therefore you have commited the greatest offense. I beg you for your own welfare to pray for forgiveness on this horrible act.

 

As for Arjuna, He is a completely liberated soul, and He is known as the close friend of Sri Krishna. As we are all aware, in order to sing His gloriously divine message to the world, Krishna put Arjuna in such a state of relative ignorance so that His pastime may be enacted nicely and the instruction handed over by the Supreme Guru Sri Krishna. So on account of His relationship with Krishna, Arjuna is to be glorified at all times. However, being a pure devotee of Sri Krishna in this age of Kali is so rare,that He may hold a similar status if not an even greater status than that of the great soul Arjuna.

 

Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that all we do and realize nowadays is through books and books alone. This is not what the Guruparampara is about at all. The scriptures are a great and necessary tool, but unalloyed devotion is the means, and all of these bonafide gurus have attained that status of pure devotion, be they Srila Prabhupada, Bhakti Promod Puri or Bhaktivinoda Thakur. So there is no question of dry speculation and one sided views on their behalf. Their insight and realization is pure, beyond books and scriptures.

 

Srila Prabhupada Himself stated that quotation and counterquotation from the scriptures will never reach any ultimate resolution, so it is therefore imperative that we simply accept the word of Sri guru on account of His status as a pure devotee.

 

So you may reject God positioning all you want, and disregard those "so-called" commentaries and purports altogether, however you are not at the stage of these great and saintly souls, therefore your vision holds no weight.So there is no question who is actually confused, for it certainly isn't the spiritual master. The spritual master is a self-realized soul and His knowledge surpasses the speculative knowledge as He always resides on the spiritual plane. Krishna clearly states in the Gita that you surrender fully to His pure devotee, so submit and listen to Him, take His instructions to heart. Krishna clearly states that He is the Supreme cause of all causes. So where is the need to speculate on who is equally Supreme? Here Krishna is presented in full opulence as the Supreme Lord, so why go on speculating? So just take to Krishna Bhakti and stop this nonsensical debate. Become His devoteee, stop doubting, stop this mental speculation. If one does not take the instructions of Gurudeva to heart and disrespect His commentary the creeper of devotion will never sprout but will simply wither and the heart will remain of stone.

 

Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

Krishna: Whatever, O Bhishma, thou wilt say unto the enquiring son of Pandu (Yudhishthira), will be regarded on earth to be as authoritative as the declarations of that Vedas. That person who will conduct himself here according to the authority of thy declarations, will obtain hereafter the reward of every meritorious act.

 

...............

 

Vaisampayana said: Hearing these words of Krishna fraught with morality and profit, Santanu’s Bhishma, answered him in the following words:

 

Bhishma said: O master of all the worlds, O mighty armed one, O Siva, O Narayana, O thou of unfading glory, hearing the words spoken by thee I have been filled with joy. But what words (of instruction), O master of speech, can I say in thy presence, when especially in all the subjects of speech have been dealt with in speech?

 

[GODSEED]

Aum ShreeVishnave Namah

 

============================================================

N.B. The views expressed here, are personal views and the reader is advised not to BLINDLY accept and\or follow them. One should rather, depend on KRSN directly or indirectly, as in a form of a qualified spiritual master.

============================================================

 

I'd suggest the questioner that rather than falling into such confusions of Gross-name-substances, try to concentrate on the meaning that the name suggests.

 

Out of various meanings of Krsn, one meaning could be...

 

'The One Who gives happiness to everyone'

 

And Shiv means 'Kalyaan' or the 'Unconditional, Causeless and Eternal mercy'.

 

So, thus the difference is hardly ego-based, i.e. your interpretaion. There is no differece in Actuality.

 

Now if you look through these two (rather similar) attributes or natures, you won't be illusioned anymore. At least I (because of His uncondtional krupa), am not illusioned into such pitfalls. Its all ONE. Try to concentrate on the meaning of the name, they'd lead you to ONENESS.

 

You may refer to 'Vishnu sashranam' by Swami Sri Chinmayanandji. This might help you. It has definitely helped me a lot.

 

Hari Aum Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

Dear Nrsinghadev ji,

 

Hare Krishna!

 

As you have stated that I don't have any realization and that my words don't have any weight whatsoever, can I have the privilege of knowing your level of achievement?? Should I accept the weightage of your words then?? How!? Just because you favour one particular school of thought in a given fashion and want to defend it?? You hardly know me to make such a claim! Simply having devotion is no proof of a particular level of spiritual advancement! Just like being called Nrsinghadev doesn't make you one! Lol!

 

We all know the greatness of shri Arjuna without your trumpeting it. You probably didn't meet him either! I'll explain what I meant by Direct Perception - I suppose you have read the story of Goswami Tulsidas. Nobody would doubt his "commentaries" or 'purports" if he wrote them. He wrote the Ramcharitmanas! And people commented on it later. It was well aware that he had the 'darshan' of Lord Ramachandra. That is direct God realization. That is divine perception. A state where the Lord appears before a disciple. Mira Bai attained that state too. Unless she did that, she was still a great devotee. Greater than any of us, but still not a fully liberated soul before her direct perception of the Lord shri Krishna. Then she had no reason to left to stay here. Many highly elevated yogis did that too.

Many liberated souls do come to carry their saving work here. Was Srila Prabhupada one such soul is beyond my competency to comment upon! I recognize his being a person in mode of pure devotion. We highly respect him and pray to him with ardent devotion too. He did help save a lot of souls from the clutches of plain material existence by introducing KC into their lives.

 

I read a lot of books and have immense devotion in Krishna and Srila Prabhupada, but still that may not mean that Prabhupada materializes in front of me or I have reached a state where I can interact with him and directly get my answers from his mouth whenever I want.

Now my disciples can propagate my name far and wide and it is quite possible that a few people will believe me to be a realized soul too out of their sheer devotional respect and belief! Where is the meter to measure this realization Shri Nrsinghadev ji? I'll be obliged if you can enlighten me on this issue for my own spiritual progress.

What was the difference when Arjuna with all his devotion and knowledge wasn't fully convinced, but only upon direct divine perception.

You expressed your distaste in the slighting of the propaganda of God positioning. But you failed to comment on the points I wrote. Why was it necessary for Krishna to give divine vision to Arjuna?? Why was it necessary for him to tell him to practice yogic disciplines and follow the technique of Kriya yoga by gazing on the third eye meditating on him? He could have told him - all you have to do is take a pair of khartals and sing and dance. Why bother with yoga? But now you propagate that that was a different yuga. Yes that was Vedic culture. But in Kaliyuga all we can do is shravan, kirtana and manan!

So do you see the difference between what kind of sadhnas that were prevailant in Vedic period and what are prevailant now??? Let me hear your 'puports'!

Yes there is a difference! And what you practice now is not purely Vedic.

You can argue that the ultimate aim is to surrender to Krishna and that's what we are doing and all other activities are zero! Fine! No problem with that!

Please remember, I haven't come here to belittle anyone!

Please accept the fact that it will be the last thing for me to do is to belittle his divine grace Srila Prabhupada or the Gurus or the movement. It is not my on agenda. I won't earn any spiritual wealth from it!

It will be my good luck to sing the praises of the Lord and his devotees including yourself!

But sorry I can't handle fanatism. It is the duty of every bonafide sampradaya or devotee to praise his lineage of saints, devotees. But to think every other person is false is wrong. Where is the aparadha? That I don't accept the belitteling of Lord Shiva? If this is the aparadha, then I'll be proud to committ it again and again! It wil be an aparadha to listen to anyone who preaches Lord Shiva as a mere "Demi-God"! I will not listen to the belitteling of either Lord Shiva or Lord Sri Krsna!

 

Nrsinghadev ji! If you have that direct perception I refered to, I'm humbly ready to accept your guidance today itself! If any of the 'Gurus' that you know can show me that, I'll also come under their refuge! Arjuna played the role of an ignorant or not is a secondary issue. Something that you can speculate on as much as you like.

 

We also know the great work that Srila Prabhupada did to propagate the Krishna Consciousness movement in the west. He was the chosen one. As prophesized by Lord Sri Chaitanya.

But yes I reject all God position .!

We are definitely not standing on the ground to change some particular God's position or determine it in a particular fashion. Vedic culture respects the Gods. Krishna showed it by his own example. He earneslty took initiation into Shaiv Pashupata Yoga from Upmanyu and became the greatest Shaiva. You can say he played a role. Okay! There must be a reason for him to show this example then! The Lord doesn't do anything for no reason! Isn't it? Of course Krishna says in the BG to leave everthing and surrender unto him! So do it. But you will have to show me where he claims Lord Shiva to be a mere "Demi-God". If Your conclusion of his being a demi-God not a read only theory, then what? Who told you that and where was he told from?? From another book?

 

As far as my earning vaishnava aparadha is concerned, then those who belittle Lord Shiva earn it a hundred times more. And I've heard it from a number of disciples whether it is India or abroad. We try to throw 'fear factor' by using the 'aparadha', 'offense', horrible act etc. stuff on anything that doesn't fall straight in our line of belief! It may or may not be a real aparadha. I'm aware of the list of aparadhas mentioned by Sri Jeev Goswami. He did mention aparadha of belittling a bona-fide Guru, but there can be bona-fide Gurus who may not be of a Vaishnva lineage too! Sri Gorakhnath was a devotee of Lord Shiva. Would you call him a bona-fide Guru? Please answer! Sri Lahiri Mahasaya, a realized yogi was a bona-fide Guru who clearly stated his experiences of God communion and stages in divine realization and visions. So did Sri Yogananda. Would you accept him as a bona-fide Guru too? Why not?

As we consider Lord Shiva the greatest Vaishnava, I see no reason why he should be belittled by ignorant people claiming to argue on books. I see no reason why you can't celebrate Shivaratri at the Krisna temple when you can celebrate the anniversary of Srila Prabhupada there!! A few years back a lady devotee in the Spain temple wrote to the temple authorities about the dissatisfaction on celebrating Shivratri at the temple writing why would you celebrate some demi-God's festival!

 

Dear devotee, there was the vedic period when some rishis would meditate for one year and then write down one shloka as the essence of their whole year's experience in cosmic consciouseness. This shloka was so powerful that if you expand it, it would be a whole book of commentary on its conclusion and explanation. And now there are people who are writing purports deciding which God to put where!

 

And don't worry, if my heart was of stone and disinterested spiritually, I wouldn't even bother to look into this site! As you quoted Sri Krsna saying to surrender to his pure devotee, would that mean we can also surrender to Lord Shiva? Why not? He is more than a pure devotee! He is referred to by Lord Brahma as the Supreme Lord in Bhagwatam! There is nothing wrong with it either! If you can surrender yourself to Sri Krsna, it is great!

I haven't come here to speculate either.

I came here to defend the belittling of Lord Shiva.

I'm a Krishna devotee anyway! I come from a Vaisnava family where Rama and Krishna are the principle deities. But I'm also well aware of the Shaiv siddhanta, the importance of Vedic spiritual sadhnas of Kriya kundalini yoga. Yogis are also advanced devotees full of bhakti and not materialists as I've heard in some of the discussions. Sometimes I wonder, why we in our sampradaya defend everyword of ours but relate very loosely and disrespectfully t o other sampradayas. Even the advaitas have attained God realization!

 

I wrote my thoughts. You have the liberty of not accepting it! I'm not preaching.

But please do accept my humble apologies if what I have written is not what you wanted to hear! I cannot be annoyed because your cause is noble and all you are trying to do is to praise the Lord in your way! Which is commendable!

 

I bow before Srila Prabhupada and Sri Radhe-Krishna!

I praise all the devotees of Sri Krishna and Shiva!

 

I detest all the so called devotees who though praise Krishna or Shiva but belittle the other propagating him to be inferior and small. Who go around distributing free blasphemies.

 

Hare Krishna

Om Namah Shivay

 

[Guest guest]

.....

and then Lord Sri Krishna himself praised the Lord of Lords!

Shiva Sehestranama!

[Guest guest]

Haribol Nitesh prabhu,

 

I apologize for getting personal, that was not proper behaviour, and consequently it seems to have blurred for you the point I tried to put across.

As a result, you seemed to have overlooked the purport regarding my say on Arjuna, which was that there is no question of incapacity on His account, but rather Arjuna was put into such condition by Krishna so that the conversation between Krishna and Arjuna may become the vessel for His revelations and this pastime may be enacted just like a play. So why was it necessary to tutor Arjuna on all of these different forms of yoga, and all these other things? So that the world may benefit from it. Not for Arjuna's sake, because He was already a liberated soul.

The resultant purport indicated that being present around Krishna during His pastimes on this Earth does not make one an overruling factor in regard to the pure devotee of our present age. On the contrary, since it's obviously more difficult to be a pure devotee in our age, such a soul which is rare to be found is logically to be held in equal or even higher esteem than those around Krishna at the time of His presence due to this particular timeframe. Thus the Lord revealed eternally unchanging knowledge to Arjuna so the world be blessed with it. As you are aware, from the Vedas different methods of worship are prescribed for each different yuga. Thus prescribed for this age is:

 

Brhan-naradiya Purana [38.126].

"Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam. kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha:

 

In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way."

 

So, as you can see,this chanting the names of the Lord is not some recent invention, but it is the very same pure Vedic culture with specific injunctions according to time and circumstance. Just like in the case of Krishna's pastime with Arjuna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra, where Krishna's imposed doubt onto His dear friend Arjuna just so He could dispel them again.

Correct me if I misunderstood, but it seems from your reply that you want with the senses of your body to obtain some sort of proof of selfrealization, that you think should ultimately see the Lord with the eyes of your material body. But that is not the acme of Bhakti Yoga nor is it important for a devotee. Devotional service does not entail any sort of want but the want to serve the Lord in whatever circumstance or condition, be in hell or the heavenly planets, on this earth or on Goloka Vrndavana. So you say you have immense devotion to Krishna and Prabhupada, and yet you do not follow their instructions. Not all yogis are Bhakti's mind you.

 

Conclusion to my response was that there is no need to argue over who is the Supreme, because Krishna's being the Supreme personality of Godhead is fully revealed in the scriptures.

One verse as an example:

 

Sri Brahma Samhita 5.1:

 

"Krsna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes."

 

Shiva as expansion of Sri Krishna appeared from between the eyebrows of Brahma, so His origin is Krishna, whereas the origin of Krishna is Krishna. Paramatma is but a feature of the Supreme Lord, not the sum and substance. This is not a belittlement of Siva, the purport to this is not to put Him down in any way. So here Krishna is presented, so just take to Him, where is the difficulty in accepting Him? Why the want to replace Krishna or put His expansions on the same level? There is no question of this conclusion belonging to a specific sampradaya only, for this is taken from Vedic scriptures that are applicable to all sampradaya's. I don't accept belittlement of Lord Siva either, and yes please worship Him as the foremost devotee of Lord Krishna.

 

"Devotee: Srila Prabhupäda, in Winnipeg there is one very pious east Indian man who for many years has been worshiping somewhat, worshiping Lord Siva. And his wife is also a very quite chaste woman and sincere follower—and so were her parents—of Lord Siva. And he is reading your Bhagavad-gétä. He visits our temple. And I have given him the first volume of Canto Four which discusses Lord Siva a great deal. And he has read in one of your purports that Krsna is more pleased when you worship His devotee than when you worship Him directly. And Lord Siva is a very great devotee of Krsna. So he has now interpreted that to mean that if he worships Lord Siva so nicely, then actually he is pleasing Krsna more. So he is experiencing some difficulty because of this and I’m not quite sure how to instruct him that actually...

 

Prabhupäda: Difficulty?

 

rahmänanda: That... Our Godbrother has difficulty in replying to this interpretation that Krsna says, “You can please Me by worshiping My devotee,” and Lord Siva is the devotee of Krsna. So therefore this man says, “Then I shall worship Lord Siva. In that way I shall please Krsna.”

 

Prabhupäda: But if he accepts Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, then by worshiping Lord Siva he will be benefited. If he thinks Lord Siva is independent, then he will not be benefited.

 

Devotee (3): I’ve got him to accept that Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, but there’s no practical instruction in his worldly activities coming.

 

Prabhupäda: No, vaiñëavänäm yathä çambhuù: “Amongst the Vaiñëavas, Çaàbhu, Lord Siva, is the greatest Vaiñëava.” So we worship Lord Siva as Vaisnava. We gives respect to Vaisnavas. So why not Lord Siva? Lord Siva is a big Vaisnava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Siva, they take Lord Siva is independent God. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Siva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Siva. Krsna will be pleased.

 

Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupäda, he does not chant Hare Krsna, he chants om siväya namah.

 

Prabhupäda: That’s all right.

 

Devotee (3): It’s all right?

 

Prabhupäda: He will gradually become devotee. When God, Lord Siva, will be pleased upon him, he will advise to worship."

 

You said:

 

"Dear devotee, there was the vedic period when some rishis would meditate for one year and then write down one shloka as the essence of their whole year's experience in cosmic consciouseness. This shloka was so powerful that if you expand it, it would be a whole book of commentary on its conclusion and explanation. And now there are people who are writing purports deciding which God to put where!"

 

As is currently evident, this is the age of quarrel and dispute. Memory, life, virtue everything is degraded as opposed to previous yugas. Therefore, for our age the

Brhan-naradiya Purana [38.126] prescribes:

 

"Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam. kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha"

 

Thus the final purport of my message was to leave all of this useless bickering and arguing behind, of who is more Supreme than who, and simply surrender to Sri Krishna, who is fully revealed as the Supreme fountainhead. If you wish to worship Siva as the Supreme Lord, it's your choice, I have no problem with that either, you should worship according to your situation. Similarly there are different levels of God realization. Different ways for different people, God provides them!

 

Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

^^^Nrsinghadev^^^

 

forgot to login

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krishna dear Nrshinghadev prabhu,

 

I was glad to receive your answer. I see you are in constant touch with the devotee site and KC. Please accept my humble obeisances!

 

You failed to comment on the lineage of Yoga taught by Krsna in BG.

Bhakti is prominent way in KaliYuga. No doubt.

But I prefer to use a combination of bhakti-and kriya yoga.

I do not "reject" dhyann or kriya kundalini yoga in any way. Infact it helps deepen your bhakti.

Without dedication one cannot walk on the difficult path of yoga. I wouldn't waste your time at this point giving references, as it may not be your interest.

 

In fact as I have noticed none of the devotees bothered to answer any technical questinos on yoga. But yes there is another way. And I have seen great liberated yogis who used the fast paced yogic techniques in this age of Kali. Both are good in my opinion. To comment for sure, you will have to train and reach a certain height in this so that you can feel your progress and then say whether it works or not. It has worked for me tremendously along with my devotional service. Also there is a common mistake as that devotees make of stating experiences in the higher cosmic consciousness as 'physical sense experiences' It is an experience that you get after realizing your soul upto a certain point. After you you disect your ethreal, causal and astral bodies that are hidden under your physical form. Just like the chakras are in teh astral bodies and are responsible for your consciousness. Yogis who awaken the chakras should not be termed as physical sense perception. This is incorrect.

Their perception ellevated beyond the perception of an ordinary man into the realms of prakriti and para prakriti. To state this is as a mere physical sensory experience is definitely ignorance of the path of yoga. You cannot experience divinity only by your five sense organs and yogis strive to go beyond this.

If they are not wiping floors in some temple also may not mean they are not devotional! ITs just that their consciousness transcends the conscious of an ordinary man. Of course there are yogis who have not made an achievement so far but are trying. But then there are numerous examples amongst us of devotees who are also trying like myself, but haven't reached a level we would want to reach. So who is better since we have examples of great men / pure devotees and saints in all the lineages? Dvait, Advait, Vaishnava / Shaiva /Shakt?

You wrote "not all yogis are bhaktas mind you"! To which I can say not all bhaktas may have the qualification for being a yogi too! And not all bhaktas may even be bhaktas, just like not all yogis may be realized ones.

But it is a bona-fide method that does work in Kali Yuga! BUt you need to have an illumined master, and these are rare. Bhakti is easier to practice on the other hand. The nectar of devotion and love can be and should be developed.

I've read that dialogue of Srila Prabhupada instructing on Shiva worship before. Thank you for reminding me again.

Another common statement that Shiva is dependent on someone else on giving boons and liberating a soul is false. I don't recognize this!

A devotee of Shri SadaShiva can be liberated by serving him only.

This is a fact just like a devotee can be liberated by serving Vishnu/Krishna.

 

You know, just like the Christians propagate that since Christ said you come to God but only through me, all other ways are untrue. So when I talk to most of them, they claim you can reach God only through Jesus. I tell them but I pray to Lord Krishna and am happy. They reply you think you are happy, but you may be in illusion! So they steadily believe that there is no other way. Though when Christ said these words to them, he was also right. And they can come to God through him if they follow the Christ or Krishna Consciousness.

If you read Shiva Geeta you will find confirmation to what I have said. Also if you read Shri Shiva Mahapurana, you will find confirmation that Shiva is the liberator. Yes there are different people who have to follow different paths or ways of worship and devotion to the Lord according to their own nature. But then again the cunning twist in this statement states the different ways as different levels of spiritual advancement, hinting that those who prefer to worship Shiva or are Yogis are a bit less advanced than those who wash floor in Temples or distribute books for example.

 

I think your sincerity matters most. Though Vaishnavs say there is no other way, tantriks and yogis say their way is faster and you see immediate results of your sadhnas. I've seen some great Vaishnava Yogis and believe these two paths work great combined.

I would readily agree with you here to follow the path shown by your Sri Guru.

 

Also Narsinghdev prabhu, I enjoyed my discussion with you. Hope you'll keep on enlightening me with your Hari katha in the future too!

 

HARE KRISHNA!

[Guest guest]

There are different saints who claim they are the gods or propagate that certain gods are the only gods etc. Which means to consider the XYZ as the supreme god and to pray to all others as devotees of that XYZ god etc. This is all the run of the mill bakthy. You can get millions of people to become bakthas of krishna with this kind of run of the mill bakthy.

 

Please differentiate and spare krishna from this sort of run of the mill saints or their saintly propagation of who the real god is. Krishna in Geeta spoke of lots of advice including those pertaining to ones own actions. You ignore all that and take to krishna like any of the run of the mill bakthy, for which a great scripture like bagawath geeta won't be necessary at all. The quality of bakthy to krishna is as varied and ambiguous as can be the varied interpretations of bagawath geeta. This is unfortunate.

 

Vaishnavas should feel proud that atleast in the next incarnation, the scriptures turn a little more smarter in this aspect of bakthy.

 

No body can be a greater devotee of Ram, unless they can beat Hanuman in service/seva to Ram. Service in form of Action, thought, dedication, which is the differentiator from the run of the mill bakthy.

 

Review these actionless words & the benefit-linked advices below highlighted by square brackets and figure out if this is run of the mill bakthy for yourself.

 

 

"Prabhupäda: But if he [accepts] Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, then by worshiping Lord Siva he will be benefited. If he [thinks] Lord Siva is independent, then he will not be benefited.

 

Devotee (3): I’ve got him to [accept] that Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, but there’s no practical instruction in his worldly activities coming.

 

Prabhupäda: No, vaiñëavänäm yathä çambhuù: “Amongst the Vaiñëavas, Çaàbhu, Lord Siva, is the greatest Vaiñëava.” So we worship Lord Siva as Vaisnava. We gives respect to Vaisnavas. So why not Lord Siva? Lord Siva is a big Vaisnava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Siva, they [take] Lord Siva is independent God. That is [offensive]. If you [know] that Lord Siva is also a devotee, you can [give more respect] to Lord Siva. Krsna will be pleased."

 

[Guest guest]

Hello!!!

Mr. great preacher!

Do you have a name?

 

 

[Guest guest]

I beleive you can be liberated and even go to Vaikuntha by worshipping only Sadasiva since he has a loka of his own as a form of Narayana in Vaikuntha. Just like you can go to Vaikuntha by just worshipping Lord Nrsimhadeva. The Siva who is refered to as a demigod is I believe Rudrasiva, but I believe he is non-different from Sadasiva who is non-different from Narayana who is non-different from Krishna.

If Lord Brahma says in Srimad Bhagavatam that Lord Siva is the Paramatma then this is authoritive Vaishnavas since S.B. is an authoritive scripture for Gaudiya Vaishnavas and it should be accepted. Lord Siva is non-different from the paramatma. Srila Prabhupada says Lord Siva is Lord Krishna who is in touch with material nature as his occupation. Like milk and yoghurt essentiely the same but different so are Siva and Krishna

[sashin]

Haribol Nitesh Prabhuji,

 

May I humbly ask you what is the highest goal of our life according to you or your spiritual preceptors ?

 

Because that would decide the nature , sadhana ,path or sampradaya, your stand on various issues etc in fact everything

 

And before you ask..I would like to let you know Mahaprabhu gave us that Krishna Prema is the highest goal of life..

 

ys

-Sashi

[Guest guest]

In Caitanyamangala by Locanadasa Thakur a devotee of Siva takes Gaura on his back and carries Him around for hours. This devotee, is explained, was showing all the signs of Sivaprema. At this point Gauracandra took on the mood of Siva to show He is Siva himself as well.

 

Doesn't this show that pure Sivaprema and Krishnaprema are non-different? Or at least that Sri Krishna Caitanya fulfills the needs or desires of the devotees in whatever form He is worshipped by them. And that by having pure Sivaprema you can achieve the all-purifying association and darshan of Sri Krishna (Caitanya) Himself.

[Guest guest]

I like the idea!

Haribol! Om namah Shivay!!

Love to see a devotee devoid of this distinction stressing approach!

Indeed a Shiva Premi devotee ior a Krishna Premi devotee achieves the prema if he is sincere. Love Shiva! Love Krishna!

[Guest guest]

Dear Sashi,

 

Though Goal of life determines your approach, but at this time in my life it is more appropriate to consider the imediate goal at hand rather than to look at some ultimate highest goal. To live a fulfilling life or to live a life on one ideal neverthless is made up of smaller goals and acheivements! Nobody can jump directly on to the highest goal without achieving these smaller goals!

Sometimes we concentrate too much on a far fetched site and forget to look what's right under our feet or the earth right next to us. And we can fall!

The question you asked me has a very obvious and ready-made answer - ultimate goal is to go back to God-Head!

Yes, but what constitutes this going back? How many lives more do you need?

What about your immediate life? What about your problems? Either you accept them as they are or you find solutions to them! If you don't, you don't progress spiritually either! If your head is aching, you cannot sit and do sadhna! You'll have to remedy that first! NO don't be attached to your material life, but don't reject it completely either. Not all can take sanyasa.

Srila Prabhupada was a businessman too! A real Guru also has to give solutions to a disciple's material problems! Yes Krishna Prema or Shiva Prema is divine!! Be in it!

HARI BOL!