God of Geeta / Geeta ka bhagwaan

[Guest guest]

Incorporeal God of Gita - Shiv Shankar Bholenath or the soul of corporeal Sri Krishna alias Dada Lekhraj?

 

There is no doubt that Geeta, which has been guiding the Indians since the last two and a half thousand years is a gem among all the scriptures. But there would not be as many commentaries by scholars and learned persons on any other scripture as on Geeta, which proves that this scripture is so unique that the different kinds of clarifications on Geeta given by human beings have never satisfied all the human beings. Someone has rightly said, " Kai jaaney kavi, ya kai jaaney ravi". The poet only or the sun of knowledge can give the correct clarification of a poem. Rest of the clarifications given by the human beings will be incomplete from one point of view or the other.

 

It has been fed in the minds of the general public that the Sermonizer of Geeta was Shri Krishna, who gave the discourse of Geeta to Arjuna sitting on a chariot in the war field of Kurukshetra. But if we look from a spiritual and historical angle then all the questions such as who, when, whom and where was Geeta narrated are disputable. The story of Geeta and Satyanarayana prove that God reveals himself in the form of an ordinary, old and experienced human being. It has been written in Geeta:

Avjaanaanti maam moodha manurshee tanumashritam I

Param bhaavamjaananto mam bhootmaheshwaram II (Gita 9/11)

 

Further it has been written in Geeta that God is ajanma (eternal), abhokta (one who does not enjyoy any pleasures) and avyakta (imperceptible).

Ajo S pi sannvyayatma bhootanamishraro S pi san I

Prakriti swamdhishthaay sambhavamyatmamaayayaa II (Gita 4/6)

 

Yo maamjamanaadim cha veti lokmaheshwaram I

Asam-moodhah sa martyeshu sarvapapaih pramuchyatey II

 

In the Shrimad Bhagwatgita that aadi-anadi purush (eternal being) has been praised – (tamev chadhyam purusham prapdhye yatah pravrittih prasoota puraani I Geeta 15/4), i.e., I bow to that aadi-anaadi purush, who has first of all created this world-like tree. That eternal being (aadi purush) is telling himself-(Ahamadirhi devanam maharshinaam cha sarvashah-Geeta 10/2), i.e., I am only the beginning of all the deities and sages. He only had propagated that famous principle of karmayoga (remembering God while performing actions) in the ancient times, due to which India got the name of karmabhoomi (land of the actions of God) as per the Jaina tradition also (nishtha pura prokta mayanagh…karmayogen yoginaam-Geeta 3/3)

 

Here it may be recalled that the knowledge of Geeta was not given by Shri Krishna, but by that aadi-anaadi purush (eternal being) to the householder Arjuna in order to teach the religion of household (grihastha-dharma) and to teach him easy Rajyoga. In this connection, some of the quotes of famous historians are given below, without going into the details:

 

Hopkins said, “The present Krishna-dominated form (of Geeta) was earlier a Vishnu-dominated poem and prior to that it was a non-communal writing.” Religions of India (1608) Page 386 (Radhakrishnan Geeta, Page 17). Farkuhar has written in Religious literature of India (1620) page 12-14, “This (Geeta) is an ancient prose Upnishad, which was probably written after shwetashwataropanishad and which has been moulded into the present form after the death of Christ to support the Krishnaism by some poet.” As per Garvey, “Bhagwatgita was earlier a scripture related to Sankhya-yoga, in which the methods of worship of Krishna Vasudev got included and it was adjusted as per the Vedic traditions by considering Krishna to be a form of Vishnu in the 3rd Century B.C. Holtzman considers Geeta to be a later Vishnu-dominated form of a sarveshwarwadi poem. Keith also believes that originally Geeta was a Shwetashwatar form of Upanishad, but later it was moulded in the form of Krishna worship. (An extract from the introduction to Radhakrishnan ‘Geeta’, page 17)

Shri Krishna was born from the womb of a mother. He enjyoyed all the pleasures of life and had obtained knowledge from Guru Sandipani. He has mostly been depicted in childhood form. That is why the entire world cannot accept him as a Father. Secondly, it is famous in mythological stories that Shri Krishna narrated Geeta only to one Arjuna while sitting on a chariot in the Copper Age (Dwapar Yug), but it is also famous that Sage Vyaas had written the scripture Mahabharata, which reached the general public in Sanskrit. From the historical point of view these points are disputable.

 

Actually, Geeta is the highest among all the scriptures (sarva shastra shiromani), but it was narrated in the confluence age of the 5000 years old world drama wheel consisting of four ages, i.e. at the confluence of the Iron Age and the Golden Age, which is being repeated now. Had Geeta been narrated only in the Copper Age then how did the sinful Iron Age arrive? After the incarnation of God, it should have resulted in the commencement of Golden Age and not the most sinful Iron Age. And Geeta is narrated in the Confluence Age, when all the religions, the religious followers and the religious fathers of those religions are present in their last birth. It is because of this only it has been said in Geeta, “Renounce all the religions and come into my asylum, the asylum of one Supreme Soul.”

 

Sarvadharmanparityajya Mamekam Sharanam Vraj.

Aham twa sarvapapebhyo mokshayami maa shuchah. (Geeta 18/66)

 

From the point of view of Hindus, when Geeta was narrated in the Copper Age, then the religions like Islam, Sikhism etc. were not present. Then how did the above hymn (shloka) come in Geeta? And the Geeta was not narrated in a complex language like Sanskrit, but is being narrated in language like Hindi, which can be understood by the common public. Even from a historical point of view, Sanskrit was never the language of the general public. Then how can God, who has entered in a very ordinary human being, use such a complex language? Apart from this, Geeta was not narrated by a corporeal prince Shri Krishna, who had an attractive name and form and who comes in the cycle of life and death, but by incorporeal God Shiva, who is ajanma (beyond worldly births), abhokta (beyond pleasures) at the end of the Iron Age through an ordinary human body (Prajapita Brahma) not just to one Arjuna, but it is being narrated to many other householders like Arjuna. It is written in Geeta, “O Arjuna, you do not know your births (i.e. past lives). I narrate to you the story of your past lives.”

Bahooni mein vyateetani janmaani tav charjun.

Taanyaham ved sarvaani na twa vettha parantap. (Geeta 4/5)

 

But how can Krishna, who passes through the cycle of life and death himself, give the inheritance of true mukti (liberation) and jeevanmukti (living a liberated life), and narrate the story of many births to other human souls? This proves that the story of many births, which is famous as Geeta or Amarkatha (the story of becoming imperishable) is not narrated through corporeal Shri Krishna, but through the Supreme Soul Shiva, who is beyond life and death.

 

The above view about Geeta, which is completely different from the common view, is a view of not just the Brahmakumari Organization but also of Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwavidyalaya based in Kampila, Uttar Pradesh that the Godly knowledge called Murli, which was narrated through a very ordinary corporeal human chariot, is the true Geeta, on the basis of which the Sanskrit Geeta will be written in the Copper Age, which is going to commence 2500 years henceforth. Although the Brahmakumari Organization believes that the incorporeal Shiva is the God mentioned in Geeta, but they are spreading the name and form of Dada Lekhraj alias the soul of Krishna in the world as the corporeal medium of God, whereas it is known to everyone that Dada Lekhraj had expired in 1969 itself. Then how can he be called the father of the entire world, i.e. Prajapita Brahma? In the flute of knowledge (murlis) narrated by incorporeal Supreme Soul Shiva regarding Geeta and its narrator, He has said the following points:

• "This is a new knowledge for the new world. The giver is only one. Krishna does not give this knowledge. Krishna is not called the purifier of the sinful. The purifier of the sinful is only one Supreme Father Supreme Soul, who is beyond the cycle of rebirths, whereas the name of Krishna, who takes 84 births, has been added in Geeta." (Gyan Murli dated 28.10.87 published by Brahmakumaris)

• "Now, who has given birth to Geeta. This is the topic. When they say Jayanti (Birthday of Geeta) then certainly Geeta was also born, isn’t it? When it is named Shrimat Bhagwat Geeta Jayanti, then there must also be someone who gave birth to Geeta, isn’t it? Everyone says Shri Krishna Bhagwaanuvach (God Shri Krishna speaks), then Shri Krishna comes first and then Geeta. Now the creator of Geeta is certainly required. But Shri Krishna was a small child. He cannot narrate Geeta. It will have to be proved who gives birth to Geeta. This is a deep matter. Whatever dispute is there in India is only on this point. Krishna takes birth through mother’s womb. He is a prince of Golden Age." (Gyan Murli dated 24.11.88 published by Brahmakumaris)

• "Shri Krishna cannot be called Vrikshapati (master of the world tree). The Supreme Father Supreme Soul is the seed-like creator of the human world. Krishna cannot be called the creator. He is always a human being with deity-like virtues." (Gyan Murli dated 22.2.98 published by Brahmakumaris)

• "Krishna is not the father of everyone." (Gyan Murli dated 30.9.98 published by Brahmakumaris)

• "Krishna cannot be called the father of all the souls. The father of souls, i.e. Supreme Father Supreme Soul says, “Remember none but me.” "

 

In the picture of Trinity Shiva published by the Brahmakumaris organization Dada Lekhraj has been picturised as Brahma, but they are unaware of the human souls, who will play the roles of Shankar and Vishnu after the death of Dada Lekhraj in 1969. That is why, in place of Shankar and Vishnu, the pictures from the path of worship (bhaktimarg) have been shown. On the basis of the murlis and Avyakta Vanis narrated from Mt. Abu, AIVV believes that after 1969 the incorporeal Supreme Soul Shiva is giving the true knowledge of Geeta and teaching easy Rajyoga to all the human souls through another corporeal human chariot called Shiv Shankar Bholenath, through which all the Arjuna-like souls can get transformed from human beings to deities. The proofs for this fact are present in the various flutes of knowledge (i.e. gyaan murlis) narrated through Dada Lekhraj, which the administrators of Brahmakumari Organization are unwilling to accept in fear of losing the throne.

 

The Brahmakumari Organization and AIVV believe that the soul of Dada Lekhraj will take birth in the coming Golden Age as Shri Krishna. But the publicity of Dada Lekhraj as the medium of Geeta Sermonizer Shiva by the Brahmakumari Organization is like denying the knowledge given in the murlis that were narrated through Dada Lekhraj himself. Dada Lekhraj became the temporary medium of God Shiva from 1951 to 1969, during which he gave motherly love to the Brahmakumar-kumaris and the versions of God Shiva uttered through his body became famous as the true Geeta amongst the Brahmakumar-kumaris. But prior to 1951 and after his death in 1969, the responsibility of this huge Godly task was carried by the soul of his business partner, who is playing the role of the corporeal medium of incorporeal Shiva, i.e. Mahadev Shiv Shankar, and will play the role of Satya Narayan in the Golden Age in the near future and the role of Shri Ram in the Silver Age, which will begin after 1250 years.

 

God Shiva certainly narrated the knowledge of Geeta, i.e the Murlis through Dada Lekhraj, but he is revealing the deep secrets of those Murlis through his present human chariot. Just as the Hindus in general have accepted attractive looking Shri Krishna as the Geeta Sermonizer instead of Bholenath Shiv-Shankar out of ignorance, similarly the Brahmakumari Organization has accepted attractive looking Dada Lekhraj, i.e. the soul of Krishna as the Geeta Sermonizer instead of the soul of Shankar or Ram. Even in the murlis of knowledge published by the Brahmakumaris organization, the name of Dada Lekhraj (Pitashri) has been added before Shivbaba. This is the only mistake because of which the name of Shri Krishna has been added in the Sanskrit Geeta as its creator instead of Shiv-Shankar in the path of worship in the world drama cycle from Copper Age onwards. The qualities of God given in Geeta, like Avyakta, Ajanma, Abhokta etc. actually apply on Shiv Shankar both in limited and unlimited sense and not on Shri Krishna.

• "Father says that I am the God of Geeta. It was Shivbaba who created Mother Geeta. Krishna took birth. Along with him Radha and others are also included. First there are Brahmins. Father says, “Who is the foolish person, who has removed my name completely? Then, I only have to come and reveal that I, the Supreme Soul Shiva am the God mentioned in Geeta. I have created Geeta. The child Krishna took birth from Geeta. You have then added the name of child instead of Father. This is the biggest mistake." – (Gyan Murli dated 13.12.88 published by Brahmakumaris)

• "Child Krishna was born from Rudra (another name of Shiv-Shankar). So the name of child has been added instead of father in it (i.e. in Geeta)." (Gyan Murli dated 29.3.88 published by Brahmakumaris)

• "Geeta is the mother and father. Geeta is called mother. No other book is called mother. Its name is mother Geeta. OK, who created it? First of all a man adopts a woman, isn’t it?" –(Gyan Murli dated 28.9.88 published by Brahmakumaris) (So in the beginning of the Godly family, i.e. yagya also Shiv Shankar must have certainly adopted Dada Lekhraj Brahma as the 18 chaptered mother Geeta after the demise of Mother Geeta published by Brahmakumaris)

• "Everything is based on correcting Geeta. Because of amending Geeta the personality of God has vanished." (Gyan Murli dated 9.3.88 published by Brahmakumaris)

• "Bharat (India) gets the cream through the God of Shrimat Bhagwat Geeta. Shrimat Bhagwat Geeta has also been amended to the extent that Geeta has been reduced to the level of buttermilk by adding the name of Shri Krishna instead of the ocean of knowledge, purifier of the sinful incorporeal Supreme Father Supreme Soul." (Gyan Murli dated 31.10.78 published by Brahmakumaris)

• "Geeta is the mother and father of all the scriptures. It is not true that it is only the mother and father of only the scriptures of India. No. It is the mother and father of all the biggest scriptures that are present in the world." (Gyan Murli dated 5.2.83 published by Brahmakumaris)

• "He is the creator of heaven – he is helpful to everyone. Krishna is a creation himself. He is the first class flower of the garden." (Gyan Murli dated 5.2.83 published by Brahmakumaris)

 

This is the only mistake, which has caused the degradation of India, and has condemned Geeta, and in spite of being the mother of all the scriptures, Geeta is not accepted by the followers of other religions. This is the reason why scholars have clarified Geeta in different ways. Shankaracharya has proved the soul and the Supreme Soul to be one and the same (advaita) on the basis of the same Geeta, whereas Madhvacharya proved the soul and Supreme Soul to be different entities (dwaita). Sex-lust has been termed as the biggest enemy in Geeta. The people of the world do not accept this fact only because it is famous in the scriptures that the so-called creator of Geeta, i.e., Shri Krishna had 8 wives and 16,108 Gopikas. If Mahadev Shiv Shankar’s name had appeared in Geeta as the Geeta Sermonizer then the world would have readily accepted the point of Sex-lust being the greatest enemy, because Shankar is famous in the scriptures as the one who had only one wife and the one who destroyed sex-lust. If we take the example of the scriptures only then just as God was not recognized when he appeared in an ordinary, old human being in the story of Satyanarayana, similarly seeing the graveyard dweller-like ordinary form of Shankar, his father-in-law Daksh Prajapati did not recognize him and insulted him. So “As the King, so are the subjects.”

 

In India Geeta is also considered to be a mother. But in the Godly knowledge being given by God Shiva presently, it is also being clarified that Geeta is not just a symbol of knowledge, i.e. a book, but it is also a symbol of a living human soul, who is playing the role of world mother (Jagdamba) along with Prajapita to sustain the Godly family in the present Confluence Age. Both of them are only known as Aadi Dev- Aadi Devi by the Hindus, as Aadam-Havva by the Muslims, as Adam-Eve by the Christians and as Aadinath-Aadinathini by the Jains.

 

Hence, keeping in view the above points, if Father Shiv-Shankar is presented as the God mentioned in Geeta instead of the child Shri Krishna, then Geeta will be accepted by the souls of the entire world as a Godly version.

• "When did God narrate Geeta? Certainly all the religions must be present. Actually, Geeta is the main scripture for all the religions. People of all the religions must accept it….Father has come to cause the true salvation of people belonging to all the religions through Geeta. Geeta has been narrated by Father. This matter has been made complicated by putting the name of child instead of Father." (Gyan Murli dated 21.2.93 published by Brahmakumaris)

 

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[Guest guest]

I don't understand what are you trying to prove?

[sumedh]

why do people bother writing about things to which they have no clue, just like pests needlessly throwing out junk using quotes from some "hopkins", "garvey" ...

 

 

Sarvadharmanparityajya Mamekam Sharanam Vraj.

Aham twa sarvapapebhyo mokshayami maa shuchah. (Geeta 18/66)

 

 

 

dharma does not mean religion; it means the spiritual practises and occupational and other duties. The Lord Himself gives various kinds of dharma in Gita (e.g. meditation, karma yoga etc) and then asks Arjun to just adopt sharanagati.

 

The rest of the stuff is a really third grade attempt to show Lord Shiva as supreme, and proves one thing -- the Brahmakumari and Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwavidyalaya are bogus. I really pity those who actually follow such organizations despite directly seeing their dishonesty.

 

Only reminds of one thing: better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt ...

[Guest guest]

This is a very good example of why there are so many people bewildered in this world and misled very badly spiritually. One can only feel compassion for folks so misled.

Knowledge from Gita and all vedic scriptures has to come down in bona-fide disciplic succession and always confirmed by Guru, Shastra and other Sadhus. So many great Acharyas, sages have confirmed the authentic bona-fide vedic shastras, there is no need to make our own shastras and concoct our own philosophy. Start reading Bhagwad Gita As it is, and it will truly enlighten you. Please keep in mind Krishna can only be understood and realized by devotion and not just mental speculation,

[Guest guest]

 

It is written in Geeta, “O Arjuna, you do not know your births (i.e. past lives). I narrate to you the story of your past lives.”

Bahooni mein vyateetani janmaani tav charjun.

Taanyaham ved sarvaani na twa vettha parantap. (Geeta 4/5)

 

But how can Krishna, who passes through the cycle of life and death himself, give the inheritance of true mukti (liberation) and jeevanmukti (living a liberated life), and narrate the story of many births to other human souls? This proves that the story of many births, which is famous as Geeta or Amarkatha (the story of becoming imperishable) is not narrated through corporeal Shri Krishna, but through the Supreme Soul Shiva, who is beyond life and death.

 

 

Totally wrong explanation. Let us see what the verse 4.5 says. There is alreaady an assumption by your author that Lord Krishna is corporeal. Hence his conclusion and explanation of this verse is illogocal and not true to what the text itself says.

 

TEXT 5

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

bahuni me vyatitani

janmani tava carjuna

tany aham veda sarvani

na tvam vettha parantapa

 

SYNONYMS

sri-bhagavan uvaca--the Personality of Godhead said; bahuni--many; me--of Mine; vyatitani--have passed; janmani--births; tava--of yours; ca--and also; arjuna--O Arjuna; tani--all those; aham--I; veda--do know; sarvani--all; na--not; tvam--yourself; vettha--know; parantapa--O subduer of the enemy.

 

TRANSLATION

The Blessed Lord said: Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!

 

Is the birth of Lord Krishna mentioned here same as that of Arjuna ?

 

The next verse clearly explains what this birth is ?

 

TEXT 6

 

ajo 'pi sann avyayatma

bhutanam isvaro 'pi san

prakrtim svam adhisthaya

sambhavamy atma-mayaya

 

SYNONYMS

ajah--unborn; api--although; san--being so; avyaya--without deterioration; atma--body; bhutanam--all those who are born; isvarah--the Supreme Lord; api--although; san--being so; prakrtim--transcendental form; svam--of Myself; adhisthaya--being so situated; sambhavami--I do incarnate; atma-mayaya--by My internal energy.

 

TRANSLATION

Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

 

Shankara's commentary:

 

English Translation of Sri Sankaracharya's Sanskrit Commentary - Swami Gambhirananda

 

4.6 Api, san ajah, though I am birthless; and avyayatma, undecaying by nature, though I am naturally possessed of an undiminishing power of Knowledge; and so also api san, though; isvarah, the Lord, natural Ruler; bhutanam, of beings, from Brahma to a clump of grass; (still) adhisthaya, by subjugating; svam, My own; prakrtim, Prakrti, the Maya of Visnu consisting of the three gunas, under whose; spell the whole world exists, and deluded by which one does not know one's own Self, Vasudeva;-by subjugating that Prakrti of Mine, sambhavami, I take birth, appear to become embodeid, as though born; atma-mayaya, by means of My own Maya; but not in reality like an ordinary man. It is being stated when and why that birth occurs:

 

It is clear that there is no difference between Lord Krishna who is charioteer of Arjuna or child of Vrindavana AND the Supreme Lord who is the preacher of Gita.

 

BOTh are identical. Only mudhas come up with such faulty logic.

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

TEXT 6

ajo 'pi sann avyayatma

bhutanam isvaro 'pi san

prakrtim svam adhisthaya

sambhavamy atma-mayaya

 

TRANSLATION

Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

 

As per Geeta God is beyond the cycle of life and death (ajanma and avinashi), but Shri Krishna is shown to have taken birth from the womb of Mata Devaki and is also shown to have died of an arrow shot on the portion beneath his foot. Then how can such a deity be called God?

 

Why does God need to take birth through a mother's womb like Ram and Krishna? Can't he enter into a grown up person to narrate knowledge?

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani Sevadhari

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes he can take a grown up form to narrate knowledge. but knowledge transmission is not restricted to narration alone. You only have to notice how endeared people are to the child form of krishna to realise the role it plays in devotion. There are people at all stages of spirtitual unfoldment some are comfortable with the formless some are comfortable with the form some with radha krsna together some like child krsna some shiva, rama, ganesha which is better? It shows that you can love God in any way as a mother, father as commonly done or even as a child, which is purer because there is no fear as a child has for a parent.

 

If God can come to disseminate knowledge for the Jnanis why not play as a child to delight devotees to show love in its purest form for the bhaktas.

 

Let me leave you with this from Ramcharitmanasa:

 

"Your being oh Rama is beyond the range of speech and reason, incomprehensible, unutterable and infinite, described ever by the Vedas as not this not this.

 

Your body is all consciousness and bliss, immutable, it is the comptent alone that realise it is altogether free from material impurities. It is for the sake of saints and sages and gods that you have assumed a human semblance and speak and act as do worldly monarchs.

 

The stupid are bewildered but the wise rejoice, when they see or hear of your doings. All that you say or do is fitting for one should dance in keeping with the role one has assumed."

 

Note the last sentence. one should dance in keeping with the role one has assumed.

 

So it is not that he NEEDS to do it, but he does it to delight the devotees. That is why the devotion in this religion is beautiful beyond compare. The lord does not stay from afar and judge and teach, he comes down to us and plays, sings, dances. When you have a little baby will you endear yourself to him by acting at your level or his? You get down on your knees and prattle on just as he is and play like a fool for hours on end, not because you need too not for your benefit but for his, because that is love.

[Guest guest]

Nrisimhadeva was an example of bhagavan entering a fully grown body.

 

Narration in Sanskrit is not an issue, Vyasa wrote it in sanskrit. Even then it still may have been spoken in sanskrit because sanskrit was not unknown to kshatriyas. In Ramayana Rama was not a Brahmin but when Hanuman approached him trying to find out his identity he spoke in Sanskrit and Rama commented to Lakshman that he could not find a hint of error or mispronunciation in it.

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Isn't it the ripe time for God to incarnate as promised in Geeta?

With warm wishes,

Prajapita Brahma kumar

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Learned Sumedh wrote, "dharma does not mean religion; it means the spiritual practises and occupational and other duties. The Lord Himself gives various kinds of dharma in Gita (e.g. meditation, karma yoga etc) and then asks Arjun to just adopt sharanagati."

 

If dharma does not mean religion and if it means a way of spiritual life then why does caste system exist in Hinduism and why are atrocities committed by upper caste Hindus on their lower caste fellow Hindus even today in the modern world?

Does God teach division of mankind or does he teach unity?

 

If dharma means meditaion and karmayoga, then why do Hindus practise so many rituals? Can't God be pleased by loveful remembrance only?

 

With regards,

ON Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari

 

 

[sumedh]

Do a little bit of reading before speaking. The first point is that, in the words of Srila Prabhupada: "You should immediately, who has no reference to the sastra, immediately take him as a rascal number one. This is the conclusion." So all that was given in the original post was nothing more than idle speculation.

 

The second thing is that you have not read the scriptures at all, rather only some bogus persons words and make conclusions from that. As a result you say:

 

As per Geeta God is beyond the cycle of life and death (ajanma and avinashi), but Shri Krishna is shown to have taken birth from the womb of Mata Devaki and is also shown to have died of an arrow shot on the portion beneath his foot. Then how can such a deity be called God?

 

Why does God need to take birth through a mother's womb like Ram and Krishna? Can't he enter into a grown up person to narrate knowledge?

 

 

 

All the vedic scriptures say that Lord Krishna was never in the womb of Mother Devaki as a physical body.

 

For example: From Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.2.18

 

tato jagan-mangalam acyutamsam

samahitam sura-sutena devi

dadhara sarvatmakam atma-bhutam

kashtha yathananda-karam manastah

 

Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was transferred from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki. Devaki, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Krishna, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.

 

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.3.7-8

 

mumucur munayo devah

sumanamsi mudanvitah

mandam mandam jaladhara

jagarjur anusagaram

nisithe tama-udbhute

jayamane janardane

devakyam deva-rupinyam

vishnuh sarva-guha-sayah

avirasid yatha pracyam

disindur iva pushkalah

 

The demigods and great saintly persons showered flowers in a joyous mood, and clouds gathered in the sky and very mildly thundered, making sounds like those of the ocean's waves. Then the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vishnu, who is situated in the core of everyone's heart, appeared from the heart of Devaki in the dense darkness of night, like the full moon rising on the eastern horizon, because Devaki was of the same category as Sri Krishna.

 

 

 

Read chapters 10.1-10.3 of Srimad-Bhagavatam. The Lord does not take birth but appears. Similarly when the hunter shot Lord Krishna in the foot, He ended His lila's and ascended to the spiritual world in that transcendental body.

 

From Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.30-35-45

 

SB 11.30.35: Jara said: O Lord Madhusudana, I am a most sinful person. I have committed this act out of ignorance. O purest Lord, O Uttamahsloka, please forgive this sinner.

 

SB 11.30.36: O Lord Vishnu, the learned say that for any man, constant remembrance of You will destroy the darkness of ignorance. O master, I have wronged You!

 

SB 11.30.37: Therefore, O Lord of Vaikuntha, please kill this sinful hunter of animals immediately so he may not again commit such offenses against saintly persons.

 

SB 11.30.38: Neither Brahma nor his sons, headed by Rudra, nor any of the great sages who are masters of the Vedic mantras can understand the function of Your mystic power. Because Your illusory potency has covered their sight, they remain ignorant of how Your mystic power works. Therefore, what can I, such a low-born person, possibly say?

 

SB 11.30.39: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Jara, do not fear. Please get up. What has been done is actually My own desire. With My permission, go now to the abode of the pious, the spiritual world.

 

SB 11.30.40: So instructed by the Supreme Lord Krishna, who assumes His transcendental body by His own will, the hunter circumambulated the Lord three times and bowed down to Him. Then the hunter departed in an airplane that had appeared just to carry him to the spiritual sky.

 

SB 11.30.41: At that time Daruka was searching for his master, Krishna. As he neared the place where the Lord was sitting, he perceived the aroma of tulasi flowers in the breeze and went in its direction.

 

SB 11.30.42: Upon seeing Lord Krishna resting at the foot of a banyan tree, surrounded by His shining weapons, Daruka could not control the affection he felt in his heart. His eyes filled with tears as he rushed down from the chariot and fell at the Lord's feet.

 

SB 11.30.43: Daruka said: Just as on a moonless night people are merged into darkness and cannot find their way, now that I have lost sight of Your lotus feet, my Lord, I have lost my vision and am wandering blindly in darkness. I cannot tell my direction, nor can I find any peace.

 

SB 11.30.44: [sukadeva Gosvami continued:] O foremost of kings, while the chariot driver was still speaking, before his very eyes the Lord's chariot rose up into the sky along with its horses and its flag, which was marked with the emblem of Garuda.

 

SB 11.30.45: All the divine weapons of Vishnu rose up and followed the chariot. The Lord, Janardana, then spoke to His chariot driver, who was most astonished to see all this.

 

 

 

From Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.31.1-13

 

SB 11.31.1: Sukadeva Gosvami said: Then Lord Brahma arrived at Prabhasa along with Lord Siva and his consort, the sages, the Prajapatis and all the demigods, headed by Indra.

 

SB 11.31.2-3: The forefathers, Siddhas, Gandharvas, Vidyadharas and great serpents also came, along with the Caranas, Yakshas, Rakshasas, Kinnaras, Apsaras and relatives of Garuda, greatly eager to witness the departure of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As they were coming, all these personalities variously chanted and glorified the birth and activities of Lord Sauri [Krishna].

 

SB 11.31.4: O King, crowding the sky with their many airplanes, they showered down flowers with great devotion.

 

SB 11.31.5: Seeing before Him Brahma, the grandfather of the universe, along with the other demigods, who are all His personal and powerful expansions, the Almighty Lord closed His lotus eyes, fixing His mind within Himself, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

SB 11.31.6: Without employing the mystic agneyi meditation to burn up His transcendental body, which is the all-attractive resting place of all the worlds and the object of all contemplation and meditation, Lord Krishna entered into His own abode.

 

SB 11.31.7: As soon as Lord Sri Krishna left the earth, Truth, Religion, Faithfulness, Glory and Beauty immediately followed Him. Kettledrums resounded in the heavens and flowers showered from the sky.

 

SB 11.31.8: Most of the demigods and other higher beings led by Brahma could not see Lord Krishna as He was entering His own abode, since He did not reveal His movements. But some of them did catch sight of Him, and they were extremely amazed.

 

SB 11.31.9: Just as ordinary men cannot ascertain the path of a lightning bolt as it leaves a cloud, the demigods could not trace out the movements of Lord Krishna as He returned to His abode.

 

SB 11.31.10: A few of the demigods, however -- notably Lord Brahma and Lord Siva -- could ascertain how the Lord's mystic power was working, and thus they became astonished. All the demigods praised the Lord's mystic power and then returned to their own planets.

 

SB 11.31.11: My dear King, you should understand that the Supreme Lord's appearance and disappearance, which resemble those of embodied conditioned souls, are actually a show enacted by His illusory energy, just like the performance of an actor. After creating this universe He enters into it, plays within it for some time, and at last winds it up. Then the Lord remains situated in His own transcendental glory, having ceased from the functions of cosmic manifestation.

 

SB 11.31.12: Lord Krishna brought the son of His guru back from the planet of the lord of death in the boy's selfsame body, and as the ultimate giver of protection He saved you also when you were burned by the brahmastra of Asvatthama. He conquered in battle even Lord Siva, who deals death to the agents of death, and He sent the hunter Jara directly to Vaikuntha in his human body. How could such a personality be unable to protect His own Self?

 

SB 11.31.13: Although Lord Krishna, being the possessor of infinite powers, is the only cause of the creation, maintenance and destruction of innumerable living beings, He simply did not desire to keep His body in this world any longer. Thus He revealed the destination of those fixed in the self and demonstrated that this mortal world is of no intrinsic value.

 

 

 

Some of today's so called gurus imagine that they are above shastra, or they know better than the shastra. So for such persons Srila Prabhupada has said:

"These two things are recommended. Not that fools, as they are thinking, ‘I can..., I can think myself. I don’t agree with the sastra. I don’t agree with the spiritual master. I don’t agree with scriptures. I have got my independent opinion.’ He is fool number one, rascal number one.' (lecture, New York, November 24, 1966)"

 

These are harsh words but are true. The vedic scriptures give the highest knowledge of God and those who imagine they they know better are either speculators, or charlatans. With so many imposters around, the simple test is to check whether the ideas of the person agree with the conclusions of vedic scriptures, or does he/she even attempt to give shastra pramana to justify his/her siddhanta, or do they have a siddhanta at all. If not then the conclusion is given in the quotes of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam says about the present times:

 

SB 12.2.4: A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. And one who is very clever at juggling words will be considered a learned scholar.

 

SB 12.3.32: Cities will be dominated by thieves, the Vedas will be contaminated by speculative interpretations of atheists, political leaders will virtually consume the citizens, and the so-called priests and intellectuals will be devotees of their bellies and genitals.

 

SB 12.3.43: O King, in the age of Kali people's intelligence will be diverted by atheism, and they will almost never offer sacrifice to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the supreme spiritual master of the universe. Although the great personalities who control the three worlds all bow down to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, the petty and miserable human beings of this age will not do so.

 

SB 12.3.44: Terrified, about to die, a man collapses on his bed. Although his voice is faltering and he is hardly conscious of what he is saying, if he utters the holy name of the Supreme Lord he can be freed from the reaction of his fruitive work and achieve the supreme destination. But still people in the age of Kali will not worship the Supreme Lord.

 

SB 12.3.45: In the Kali-yuga, objects, places and even individual personalities are all polluted. The almighty Personality of Godhead, however, can remove all such contamination from the life of one who fixes the Lord within his mind.

 

SB 12.3.46: If a person hears about, glorifies, meditates upon, worships or simply offers great respect to the Supreme Lord, who is situated within the heart, the Lord will remove from his mind the contamination accumulated during many thousands of lifetimes.

 

SB 12.3.47: Just as fire applied to gold removes any discoloration caused by traces of other metals, Lord Vishnu within the heart purifies the minds of the yogis.

 

SB 12.3.48: By one's engaging in the processes of demigod worship, austerities, breath control, compassion, bathing in holy places, strict vows, charity and chanting of various mantras, one's mind cannot attain the same absolute purification as that achieved when the unlimited Personality of Godhead appears within one's heart.

 

SB 12.3.49: Therefore, O King, endeavor with all your might to fix the Supreme Lord Kesava within your heart. Maintain this concentration upon the Lord, and at the time of death you will certainly attain the supreme destination.

 

SB 12.3.50: My dear King, the Personality of Godhead is the ultimate controller. He is the Supreme Soul and the supreme shelter of all beings. When meditated upon by those about to die, He reveals to them their own eternal spiritual identity.

 

SB 12.3.51: My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Holy Name of Krishna, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.

 

SB 12.3.52: Whatever result was obtained in Satya-yuga by meditating on Vishnu, in Treta-yuga by performing sacrifices, and in Dvapara-yuga by serving the Lord's lotus feet can be obtained in Kali-yuga simply by hari-kirtana.

 

 

 

[sumedh]

roohani sevadhari said:

 

Learned Sumedh wrote, "dharma does not mean religion; it means the spiritual practises and occupational and other duties. The Lord Himself gives various kinds of dharma in Gita (e.g. meditation, karma yoga etc) and then asks Arjun to just adopt sharanagati."

 

If dharma does not mean religion and if it means a way of spiritual life then why does caste system exist in Hinduism and why are atrocities committed by upper caste Hindus on their lower caste fellow Hindus even today in the modern world?

Does God teach division of mankind or does he teach unity?

 

 

 

Read carefully, i also wrote occupational and other duties. Please give relevant reasoning; i was not talking of "present day Hinduism" but what Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita. The silly argument given in the original post was that there were no other religions at that time, so this statement in Gita is false or manipulated; it was only a clarification of that.

 

As regards caste system, it is in a degraded state as of now. The original varnashrama system is like occupational duty, but much more than that and is described as follows:

 

BG 18.40: There is no being existing, either here or among the demigods in the higher planetary systems, which is freed from these three modes born of material nature.

 

BG 18.41: Brahmanas, kshatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy.

 

BG 18.42: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness -- these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.

 

BG 18.43: Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the kshatriyas.

 

BG 18.44: Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labor and service to others.

 

BG 18.45: By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.

 

BG 18.46: By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, a man can attain perfection through performing his own work.

 

BG 18.47: It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions.

 

BG 18.48: Every endeavor is covered by some fault, just as fire is covered by smoke. Therefore one should not give up the work born of his nature, O son of Kunti, even if such work is full of fault.

 

 

 

So based on the nature of the embodied person in a particular life, by the combination of the modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the varna of the person is determined. If one takes up an occupational duty in accordance with his/her nature and employs that in God's service it will be best, as the Lord says.

 

roohani sevadhari said:

 

If dharma means meditaion and karmayoga, then why do Hindus practise so many rituals? Can't God be pleased by loveful remembrance only?

 

 

 

Read my previous post. We do not need to please the Lord. What we need to do is engage our minds in Lord 24 hours a day. But how to do that? So the various ceremonies are a means to attract ones mind to the Lord; instead of the useless stuff that we feed to our minds all the time, don't you think it is infinitely better to engage in serving the Lord. Prahlad Maharaj says in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.5.23-24):

 

sri-prahrada uvaca

sravanam kirtanam vishnoh

smaranam .-sevanam

arcanam vandanam dasyam

sakhyam atma-nivedanam

iti pumsarpita vishnau

bhaktis cen nava-lakshana

kriyeta bhagavaty addha

tan manye 'dhitam uttamam

 

Prahlada Maharaja said: Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Vishnu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind and words) -- these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Vishnu through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge.

 

 

 

Moreover, scriptures clearly say that in kali-yuga the only way, the only dharma is hari sankirtana.

 

Brhad Naradiya Purana:

 

harer nama harer nama

harer namaiva kevalam

kalau nasty eva nasty eva

nasty eva gatir anyatha

 

"In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way."

 

harinama para ye ca

ghore kali-yuge narah

te eva krtakrtyasca

na kalir badhate hi tan

hare kesava govinda

vasudeva jaganmaya

itirayanti ye nityam

na hi tam badhate kalih

 

"In this dark age of Kali-yuga, sincere devotees of the Supreme Lord should leave aside all other means for liberation and take full shelter of the holy name. This is their real responsibility and duty. There is unlimited bliss in chanting the different names of Krsna: Hari, Kesava, Govinda, Vasudeva and Jaganmaya. For one who chants constantly with unflinching faith, he remains unaffected by the reverses of Kali-yuga, because his heart has become purified by chanting."

 

Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda Chapter 42

 

dhyayan krte yajan yajnais

tretayam dvapare ’rcayan

yad apnoti tad apnoti

kalau sankirtya kesavam

 

"Whatever is achieved in Satya-yuga by meditation, in Treta by offering ritual sacrifices and in Dvapara by temple worship is achieved in Kali-yuga by chanting the names of Lord Kesava congregationally."

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.36

 

kalim sabhajayanty arya

guna jnah sara-bhaginah

yatra sankirtanenaiva

sarva-svartho ’bhilabhyate

 

"Those who are actually advanced in knowledge are able to appreciate the essential value of this age of Kali. Such enlightened persons worship Kali-yuga because in this fallen age all perfection of life can easily be achieved by the performance of sankirtana."

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 12.3.51-2

 

kaler dosa-nidhe rajann

asti hy eko mahan gunah

kirtanad eva krsnasya

mukta-sangah param vrajet

krte yad dhyayato visnum

tretayam yajato makhaih

dvapare paricaryayam

kalau tad dhari-kirtanat

 

"The most important factor in this Age of Kali, which is an ocean of faults, is that one can be free from all contamination and become eligible to enter the kingdom of God simply by chanting the holy names. The self-realization that was achieved in the Satya millennium by meditation, in the Treta millennium by the performance of different sacrifices, and in the Dvapara millennium by worship of Lord Krsna can be achieved in the Age of Kali simply by chanting the holy names."

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Neil wrote, "Knowledge from Gita and all vedic scriptures has to come down in bona-fide disciplic succession and always confirmed by Guru, Shastra and other Sadhus. So many great Acharyas, sages have confirmed the authentic bona-fide vedic shastras, there is no need to make our own shastras and concoct our own philosophy. Start reading Bhagwad Gita As it is, and it will truly enlighten you. Please keep in mind Krishna can only be understood and realized by devotion and not just mental speculation."

 

When we believe that Geeta is the word of God, then who else but God can clarify the meanings contained in Geeta? Just as a poet who writes a poem will only know its real hidden meaning, in the same way God Father who has narrated Gita can only clarify the real meaning of Geeta. How can various human gurus, who possess limited knowledge and intellect clarify or certify the words of God? God will have to Himself descend on Earth to clarify His own words.

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari

 

 

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Learned Sumedh wrote, "Read carefully, i also wrote occupational and other duties. Please give relevant reasoning; i was not talking of "present day Hinduism" but what Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita. The silly argument given in the original post was that there were no other religions at that time, so this statement in Gita is false or manipulated; it was only a clarification of that.

 

As regards caste system, it is in a degraded state as of now. The original varnashrama system is like occupational duty, but much more than that and is described as follows"

 

So, if the caste system was not as it is today, then who will cleanse the system? Many men and governments have tried hard to remove the caste based hatred, but this hatred is increasing instead of decreasing. So who will punish the guilty? The so-called gurus who according to my learned friends quote and explain shastras including Gita themselves practice untouchability, then how will the general public, with much lesser spiritual powers be able to shed these inhuman practices? Why at the Kumbh Mela the Sadhus bathe in a separate section while the general public bathe at a different section? Does the physical water purify the soul? All these clarifications and purification of human souls can be possible only by God Himself and not by human beings.

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari

 

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Learned Sumedh quoted Srimad Bhagwatam:

"Srimad-Bhagavatam says about the present times:

In reply to:

SB 12.2.4: A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. And one who is very clever at juggling words will be considered a learned scholar."

 

If external symbols are not an indication of a person's spiritual position, and if it indicates arrival of Kaliyug, then why do all the gurus, scholars, and the so-called custordians/followers of Hinduism display so many external symbols like janeu, choti, rosaries, rings, vermillion marks all over the body,etc.? Do these things indicate the level of spirituality of a person? Does devotion to God require these external symbols?

 

Kindly enlighten me.

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Learned Sumedh quoted Shrimad Bhagwatam:

"Srimad-Bhagavatam says about the present times:

In reply to:

SB 12.3.43: O King, in the age of Kali people's intelligence will be diverted by atheism, and they will almost never offer sacrifice to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the supreme spiritual master of the universe. Although the great personalities who control the three worlds all bow down to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, the petty and miserable human beings of this age will not do so."

 

Does the word "Sacrifice" in the above quotation refer to sacrifice of animals which was prevalent in most parts of India prior to independence and is prevalent even today in many temples of India (like the Kamakhya Temple of Assam)?

Does causing pains and miseries to other living beings is the path to pleasing God?

 

Kindly clarify.

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani Sevadhari

Prajapita Brahmakumar

 

 

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Learned Sumedh while writing about the caste system quoted from Shrimad Bhagwad Gita:

" BG 18.48: Every endeavor is covered by some fault, just as fire is covered by smoke. Therefore one should not give up the work born of his nature, O son of Kunti, even if such work is full of fault."

 

If the word dharma refers to one’s occupation only, then should a person from lower castes never try to learn the scriptures or do the jobs performed by other castes? Does a member of a lower caste not have a right to progress in his life if he has the capability and inclination to perform the higher job?

 

It is evident from history that many souls from the so-called lower castes have progressed better than many Brahmins in the field of spirituality and have become spiritual guides to many sections of the mankind. Do you feel that they have violated the directions of God (as quoted above) by serving the mankind? So the word "dharma" in "sarva dharman parityajya" does not refer to occupations but to the religions based on external symbols (as mentioned in the indications or lakshanas of Kaliyug)like Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Arya Samaj etc. One must shed all the external symbols and rituals and remember God with total love and devotion in order to get purified.

 

According to Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwavidyalaya the original religion of a soul is peace, purity and happiness. A soul free from body consciousness is free from all the vices and external symbols of religion. Remembrance of God with love and devotion and in soul consciousness is enough for the purification of self.

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

As per Geeta God is beyond the cycle of life and death (ajanma and avinashi), but Shri Krishna is shown to have taken birth from the womb of Mata Devaki and is also shown to have died of an arrow shot on the portion beneath his foot. Then how can such a deity be called God?

 

Why does God need to take birth through a mother's womb like Ram and Krishna? Can't he enter into a grown up person to narrate knowledge?

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani Sevadhari

 

 

Foolish argument.

 

Read verses 4.5,4.6 together.

 

In 4.5 Lord Krishna says HE knowns about all HIS births(avataras).

 

Then in verse 4.6, Lord Krishna explains what HIS birth is as follows.

 

TEXT 6

ajo 'pi sann avyayatma

bhutanam isvaro 'pi san

prakrtim svam adhisthaya

sambhavamy atma-mayaya

 

TRANSLATION

Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

 

meaning that HIS avataras like Krishna, Ram etc. are all transcendental. This means none of these avataras possess any material body. So your point on Krishna being born throug Devaki's womb is nonsense. Infact scriptures say that Lord Krishna appeared in four-armed form beside Devaki's womb and not as you speculate. As for Lord Krishna disappearing when he was hit by arrow, Bhagavatha clearly mentions that Lord VAsudeva(Krishna) has no body. HE withdraws HIS DIVINE form away from the vision of undeserving individuals. Read scriptures before vomitting . that you learnt from third grade people.

 

Will you take Lord Krishna's own words or just interpret as per your hallucination. Note that every Acharya from Shankara to Madhva have said that Gita is unadultered words of Lord Krishna.

[Guest guest]

Gita is very clear and one has the take the direct meaning of it. Gita is also a summary of vedic scriptures. A lot of concepts from Gita are very nicely elaborated in Srimad Bhagvatam which the author of vedic scriptures Shri Ved Vyas wrote himself at the end.

[Guest guest]

Omshanti. My learned friend above has written,"Will you take Lord Krishna's own words or just interpret as per your hallucination. Note that every Acharya from Shankara to Madhva have said that Gita is unadultered words of Lord Krishna"

 

If Acharyas from Shankara to Madhva believe Gita to tbe the unadultered words of Lord Krishna then why have these scholars clarified Geeta in different ways. Shankaracharya has proved the soul and the Supreme Soul to be one and the same (advaita) on the basis of the same Geeta, whereas Madhvacharya proved the soul and Supreme Soul to be different entities (dwaita) on the basis of the same Gita.

 

Apart from the above clarifications and interpretations, there have been many other interpretations of Geeta by various human gurus. Who will give the true interpretation of Gita? The ignorant human beings or God Himself?

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari

Prajapita Brahmakumar

 

[Guest guest]

Shankara's statement that that the soul and the supreme soul are the same comes is qualitative since he discards upadhi. Madhava does not discard Upadhi and so says that they are not the same. Shankara also sings Bhaja Govindam and says Narayana is above the Avyakta. How is it that the greatest exponent of impersonalism would become ecstatic with love for krsna, on seeing murtis, on speaking about him. Doesn't something seem to be missing on your knowledge of his philosophy if what you think he was teaching does not produce the effects that it should be producing?

 

Krsna says in Bhagavad Geeta that either through personal or impersonal worship the goal is the same, but the path of the personalist is easier and happier.

 

As for the many interprettations of the Geeta, it is called the essence of the vedas, of the upanishads. The sheer volume of knowledge that can be extracted from it is enormous. So a lot of gurus take what they need from it to uplift their specific deciples, they take the lessons they need to benefit society at that time.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Omshanti. My learned friend above has written,"Will you take Lord Krishna's own words or just interpret as per your hallucination. Note that every Acharya from Shankara to Madhva have said that Gita is unadultered words of Lord Krishna"

 

If Acharyas from Shankara to Madhva believe Gita to tbe the unadultered words of Lord Krishna then why have these scholars clarified Geeta in different ways. Shankaracharya has proved the soul and the Supreme Soul to be one and the same (advaita) on the basis of the same Geeta, whereas Madhvacharya proved the soul and Supreme Soul to be different entities (dwaita) on the basis of the same Gita.

 

Apart from the above clarifications and interpretations, there have been many other interpretations of Geeta by various human gurus. Who will give the true interpretation of Gita? The ignorant human beings or God Himself?

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari

Prajapita Brahmakumar

 

 

So why don't you read Lord Krishna's own words rather than interpretations of some cheater called dada fake lekhraj.

 

Second, my point on Acharyas like Shankara etc. is to show that Gita was and is considered authentic teachings of Lord Sri Krishna and that Gita is unadultered. I mentioned this point to counter any argument that Gita may be adultered. I did not make a point saying all these Acharyas gave right interpretation.

 

As per my knowledge, after reading Shankaracharya's commentary, Ramanuja's commentary, Madhva's commentary, Acharya Madhva's commentary is a STANDARD apart from others. Other commentaries do not even come close to Madhvacharya's Gita commentary which upholds and gives correct meanings for Lord Krishna's words.

 

You need not read every commentary. Just read Lord Krishna's words in context. Do not pick some verses in randomn as you did for 4.6.

 

The context for verse 4.6 is verse 4.5.

 

You did not give any good explanation for this. Do you have any valid points.

[Guest guest]

 

Apart from the above clarifications and interpretations, there have been many other interpretations of Geeta by various human gurus. Who will give the true interpretation of Gita? The ignorant human beings or God Himself?

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari

Prajapita Brahmakumar

 

 

May I ask you who this GOD is as per Gita ?

 

Only Gita can answer it. So why don't you use your intellect atleast to intellectually understand what the verses Say.

 

The Supreme Lord said: Both you and I have taken many births. I remember them all, O Arjuna, but you do not remember. (4.05)

 

Though I am eternal, imperishable, and the Lord of all beings; yet I (voluntarily) manifest by controlling My own material nature using My Yoga-Maya. (See also 10.14) (4.06)

 

Whenever there is a decline of Dharma and the rise of Adharma, O Arjuna, then I manifest Myself(tada--at that time; atmanam--self; srjami--manifest; aham--I.). I appear(sambhavami--I do appear; yuge--millennium; yuge--after millennium. ) from time to time for protecting the good, for transforming the wicked, and for establishing Dharma, the world order. (4.07-08)

 

To think that some other BEING spoke through Lord Krishna is untenable for the following reasons.

 

1. Verse 4.5 says "The Blessed Lord said: Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!". So Shanakara's identity of Brahman and Jiva cannot hold here as Lord Krishna clearly speaks of Birth of HIMSELF and Arjuna separately. In the verse 4.4 Arjuna clearly refers to Lord Krishna the Yadava where Arjuna thinks that Lord Krshna is born after Vivasvan. So it is clearly Lord Krishna who speaks these verses.

 

2. There are so many verses in Gita where Arjuna calls HIM(preacher of Gita) as Krishna, Yadava etc. In addition the speaker of Gita HIMSELF says " The ignorant ones, not knowing My supreme natures as the great Lord of all beings, disregard Me when I assume human form. (9.11)".

 

All these show that Lord Krishna has no material body as per Lord Krishna's own words.

 

THE GOD of GITA is none other than KRISHNA and those who think otherwise are trying to steal misinterpret Lord Krishna's own words.

 

Please give only valid arguments based on Lord Krishna's words. Here people are not interested in some fake cheater lekhraj.

[sumedh]

Roohani sevadhari, do you wish to ask questions or only accusations. First off you digress from the original topic so much that the original thing is lost. Still i shall attempt to give some answers.

 

If you wish to discuss caste system then do that in a separate thread. The vaishnava acharyas have been continuing to oppose the hereditary caste system. The bhakti movement as started by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu which is meant to be distributed to all living beings, including animals, is the only duty of jivas.

 

Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

If external symbols are not an indication of a person's spiritual position, and if it indicates arrival of Kaliyug, then why do all the gurus, scholars, and the so-called custordians/followers of Hinduism display so many external symbols like janeu, choti, rosaries, rings, vermillion marks all over the body,etc.? Do these things indicate the level of spirituality of a person? Does devotion to God require these external symbols?

 

 

 

What sastra is saying that a person's spiritual position shall be ascertained by the external paraphernalia, not that external paraphernalia is against dharma. These things do not indicate the level of spirituality rather are a kind of "dress code" to have a congenial environment.

 

Then Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

Does the word "Sacrifice" in the above quotation refer to sacrifice of animals which was prevalent in most parts of India prior to independence and is prevalent even today in many temples of India (like the Kamakhya Temple of Assam)?

Does causing pains and miseries to other living beings is the path to pleasing God?

 

 

 

No causing any kind of injury to living beings is sinful and is the abc of vaishnava doctrine. Sacrifice means giving up something and not the other way round, okay.

 

 

 

BG 4.25: Some yogis perfectly worship the demigods by offering different sacrifices to them, and some of them offer sacrifices in the fire of the Supreme Brahman.

 

BG 4.26: Some [the unadulterated brahmacaris] sacrifice the hearing process and the senses in the fire of mental control, and others [the regulated householders] sacrifice the objects of the senses in the fire of the senses.

 

BG 4.27: Others, who are interested in achieving self-realization through control of the mind and senses, offer the functions of all the senses, and of the life breath, as oblations into the fire of the controlled mind.

 

BG 4.28: Having accepted strict vows, some become enlightened by sacrificing their possessions, and others by performing severe austerities, by practicing the yoga of eightfold mysticism, or by studying the Vedas to advance in transcendental knowledge.

 

BG 4.29: Still others, who are inclined to the process of breath restraint to remain in trance, practice by offering the movement of the outgoing breath into the incoming, and the incoming breath into the outgoing, and thus at last remain in trance, stopping all breathing. Others, curtailing the eating process, offer the outgoing breath into itself as a sacrifice.

 

BG 4.30: All these performers who know the meaning of sacrifice become cleansed of sinful reactions, and, having tasted the nectar of the results of sacrifices, they advance toward the supreme eternal atmosphere.

 

BG 4.31: O best of the Kuru dynasty, without sacrifice one can never live happily on this planet or in this life: what then of the next?

 

BG 4.32: All these different types of sacrifice are approved by the Vedas, and all of them are born of different types of work. Knowing them as such, you will become liberated.

 

BG 4.33: O chastiser of the enemy, the sacrifice performed in knowledge is better than the mere sacrifice of material possessions. After all, O son of Pritha, all sacrifices of work culminate in transcendental knowledge.

 

BG 4.34: Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

 

 

 

 

Bhagavad-Gita 4.42

 

 

tasmad ajnana-sambhutam

hrt-stham jnanasinatmanah

chittvainam samsayam yogam

atisthottistha bharata

 

Translation

 

Therefore the doubts which have arisen in your heart out of ignorance should be slashed by the weapon of knowledge. Armed with yoga, O Bharata, stand and fight.

 

Purport by Srila Prabhupada

 

The yoga system instructed in this chapter is called sanatana-yoga, or eternal activities performed by the living entity. This yoga has two divisions of sacrificial actions: one is called sacrifice of one's material possessions, and the other is called knowledge of self, which is pure spiritual activity. If sacrifice of one's material possessions is not dovetailed for spiritual realization, then such sacrifice becomes material. But one who performs such sacrifices with a spiritual objective, or in devotional service, makes a perfect sacrifice. When we come to spiritual activities, we find that these are also divided into two: namely, understanding of one's own self (or one's constitutional position), and the truth regarding the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who follows the path of the Gita as it is can very easily understand these two important divisions of spiritual knowledge. For him there is no difficulty in obtaining perfect knowledge of the self as part and parcel of the Lord. And such understanding is beneficial for such a person who easily understands the transcendental activities of the Lord. In the beginning of this chapter, the transcendental activities of the Lord were discussed by the Supreme Lord Himself. One who does not understand the instructions of the Gita is faithless, and is to be considered to be misusing the fragmental independence awarded to him by the Lord. In spite of such instructions, one who does not understand the real nature of the Lord as the eternal, blissful, all-knowing Personality of Godhead, is certainly fool number one. Ignorance can be removed by gradual acceptance of the principles of Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is awakened by different types of sacrifices to the demigods, sacrifice to Brahman, sacrifice in celibacy, in household life, in controlling the senses, in practicing mystic yoga, in penance, in forgoing material possessions, in studying the Vedas, and in partaking of the social institution called varnasrama-dharma. All of these are known as sacrifice, and all of them are based on regulated action. But within all these activities, the important factor is self-realization. One who seeks that objective is the real student of Bhagavad-gita, but one who doubts the authority of Krsna falls back. One is therefore advised to study Bhagavad-gita, or any other scripture, under a bona fide spiritual master, with service and surrender. A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal, and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord as they were imparted millions of years ago to the sun-god, from whom the instructions of Bhagavad-gita have come down to the earthly kingdom. One should, therefore, follow the path of Bhagavad-gita as it is expressed in the Gita itself and beware of self-interested people after personal aggrandizement who deviate others from the actual path. The Lord is definitely the supreme person, and His activities are transcendental. One who understands this is a liberated person from the very beginning of his study of the Gita.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada JSD 6.5

 

 

They are sending animals to the slaughterhouse, and now they'll create their own slaughterhouse. [imitating gunfire:] Tung! Tung! Kill! Kill! You see? Just take Belfast, for example. The Roman Catholics are killing the Protestants, and the Protestants are killing the Catholics. This is nature's law. It's not necessary that you be sent to the ordinary slaughterhouse. You'll make a slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child--abortion. This is nature's law. Who are these children being killed? They are these meat-eaters. They enjoyed themselves when so many animals were killed, and now they're being killed by their mothers. People do not know how nature is working. If you kill, you must be killed. If you kill the cow, who is your mother, then in some future lifetime your mother will kill you. Yes. The mother becomes the child, and the child becomes the mother.Mam sa khadatiti mamsah. The Sanskrit word is mamsa. Mam means "me," and sa means "he." I am killing this animal; I am eating him. And in my next lifetime he'll kill me and eat me. When the animal is sacrificed, this mantra is recited into the ear of the animal--"You are giving your life, so in your next life you will get the opportunity of becoming a human being. And I who am now killing you will become an animal, and you will kill me." So after understanding this mantra, who will be ready to kill an animal?

 

 

 

 

As already quoted:

Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.32

 

 

krishna-varnam tvishakrishnam

sangopangastra-parshadam

yajnaih sankirtana-prayair

yajanti hi su-medhasah

 

In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.

 

 

 

 

The only yajna that is recommended in this age is the sankirtana yajna. Also read this: http://www.prabhupadavani.org/web/text/146.html

 

Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

It is evident from history that many souls from the so-called lower castes have progressed better than many Brahmins in the field of spirituality and have become spiritual guides to many sections of the mankind. Do you feel that they have violated the directions of God (as quoted above) by serving the mankind?

 

 

 

I do not "feel" so; just that you didn't read the quotes properly. One should perform the work in accordance with his/her nature which is a particular mixture of the three modes of nature -- sattva, rajas and tama. So there is no question of birth being the criteria.

 

Actually the scriptures say the following:

 

 

The Varaha Purana states -

 

raksasah kalim asritya

jayante brahma-yonisu

utpanna brahmana-kule

badhante srotriyan krsan

 

"Those who were raksasas in previous ages, have taken birth as brahmanas in Kali-yuga to torment the physically weak saintly persons who are engaged in the culture of hearing about the Lord."

 

 

Padma Purana

 

brahmanah ksatriya vaisah

sudrah papa-parayanah

nijacara-vihinas ca

bhavisyanti kalau yuge

 

vipra veda-vihinas ca

pratigraha-parayanah

atyanta-kaminah krur

bhavisyanti kalau yuge

 

veda-nindakaras caiva

dyutacaurya karas tatha

vidhva-sanga-lubdhas ca

bhavisyanti kalau dvijah

 

vrttyartham brahmanah kecit

mahakapata-dharminah

raktambara bhavisyanti

jatilah smasrudharinah

 

kalau yuge bhavisyanti

brahmanah sudra-dharmina

 

 

"In Kali-yuga, all four varnas are devoid of character and proper behavior and are addicted to sin. The brahmanas are devoid of Vedic knowledge and sacrifice. Giving up the five sacrifices mentioned in the Vedas and all brahminical behavior and consciousness, they engage in inferior activities. They collect charity to satisfy their unlimited appetite for sense enjoyment. The brahmanas of Kali-yuga are characterized by the qualities of lust and cruelty. Unholy in deed and thought, they take pleasure in malice and envy. These professional thieves blaspheme the Vedas, drink liquor and exploit women for sex, taking great pleasure in adultery and fornication. They accept extremely sinful means of maintaining their lives and, posing as sadhus, dress in red cloth and wear long hair and beards. In this way the wretched so-called brahmanas of Kali-yuga accept the dharma of sudras."

 

 

 

So actually nearly all the humans in this age are sudras and most even below not in the varnashrama system at all.

 

Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

According to Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwavidyalaya the original religion of a soul is peace, purity and happiness. A soul free from body consciousness is free from all the vices and external symbols of religion. Remembrance of God with love and devotion and in soul consciousness is enough for the purification of self.

 

 

 

This is right. To be more precise, the eternal religion of the soul, the anu-chit, is to render uninterrupted causeless devotional service to the vibhu-chit, Lord Krishna.

 

Then Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

If Acharyas from Shankara to Madhva believe Gita to tbe the unadultered words of Lord Krishna then why have these scholars clarified Geeta in different ways. Shankaracharya has proved the soul and the Supreme Soul to be one and the same (advaita) on the basis of the same Geeta, whereas Madhvacharya proved the soul and Supreme Soul to be different entities (dwaita) on the basis of the same Gita.

 

 

 

This is due to reasons which you shall not understand because of the god you have created in your mind.

 

 

 

Apart from the above clarifications and interpretations, there have been many other interpretations of Geeta by various human gurus. Who will give the true interpretation of Gita? The ignorant human beings or God Himself?

 

 

 

Oh yeah i forgot, god like Dada Lekhraj will give no?

[Guest guest]

More on why it is untenable as per Gita that some other BEING spoke through Lord Krishna.

 

Here is where Lord Krishna starts to give advise to Arjuna where Sanjaya, who was given divine vision by VedaVyasa, mentions Krishna by name. Sanajaya does not see some other BEING in Krishna but only sees Lord Krishna, the Yadava King. Look at the next verse where Sanjaya says Sri Bhagavan uvacha.

 

Sanjaya said: Lord Krishna spoke these words to Arjuna whose eyes were tearful and downcast, and who was overwhelmed with compassion and despair. (2.01)

 

The Supreme Lord said: How has the dejection come to you at this juncture? This is not fit for an Aryan (or the people of noble mind and deeds). It is disgraceful, and it does not lead one to heaven, O Arjuna. (2.02)

 

Here Arjuna confirms it is Yadava Krishna.

 

Arjuna said: How shall I strike Bheeshma and Drona, who are worthy of my worship, with arrows in battle, O Krishna? (2.04)

 

Sanjaya said: O King, after speaking like this to Lord Krishna, the mighty Arjuna said to Krishna: I shall not fight, and became silent. (2.09)

 

O King, Lord Krishna, as if smiling, spoke these words to the despondent Arjuna in the midst of the two armies. (2.10)

 

The Supreme Lord said: You grieve for those who are not worthy of grief, and yet speak the words of wisdom. The wise grieve neither for the living nor for the dead. (2.11)

 

Here Arjuna asks Lord Krishna, Devaki putra, as follows.

 

Arjuna said: O Krishna, what is the mark of a person whose Prajna is steady and merged in superconscious state? How does a person of steady Prajna speak? How does such a person sit and walk? (2.54) (Prajna means consciousness, mind, intellect, judgment, discrimination, and wisdom.)

 

O Krishna, I believe all that You have told Me to be true. O Lord, neither the Devas nor the demons fully understand Your manifestations. (See also 4.06) (10.14)