Is Krishna God?

[Guest guest]

isnt Krsna an Avatara of Visnu? Visnus 8th avatara is 1.Krsna, not the other way around..

 

2.is Iskcon purely monotheistic? Visnu allways apear with an "sidekick", rama/laksman, Krsna/balaram etc.. are u purely monotheistic?

 

3.in the Gita, Krsna says that the parampara is broken and He is resurecting it again with Arjuna, why does your Parampara still calim to come directly from Brahma then if Krsna says it where broken? and where is Arjunas disciples?

[Guest guest]

 

 

Krishna is called Vishnu-tattva, meaning He is Vishnu Himself, but He [Krishna] expands Himself as Vishnu for various reasons [God is everywhere, this is how He does it]. Krishna is always fully cognizant of all His incarnations, we are called Jiva-tattva [living entities].

 

So Balarama is Vishnu-tattva also, but depending on who the incarnation is He will be different attributes and qualities, God is always personal. HE expands by His energy, which seems impersonal to many, but is actually not so. Spititual means with form, you can only love God, if He has form. And since Form is very attractive [esp Gods], formlessness is taken complelety out of the equation. [ lower nature ].

 

When Krishna spoke the Gita, HE was speaking to Brahma before, it was broken so He started it again. So the Original message was spoken again. This is the reason for Brahma being the 2nd person to have heard the message.

[Guest guest]

"When Krishna spoke the Gita, HE was speaking to Brahma before, it was broken so He started it again. So the Original message was spoken again. This is the reason for Brahma being the 2nd person to have heard the message."

 

but the succession was broken and He spoke it again to Arjuna, so the parampara should start from Arjuna then..

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

The message AS IT IS was lost.

 

You would need to read some more about this to understand it, strictly. I suggest read Sri Guru and His Grace by Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja....

[Guest guest]

You are crazy if you think Satan is greater than God

[Guest guest]

HOW RAVAN took away Sita? diden't god Ram had no knowledge of this, what kind a God is he

 

Kirshna was a Pervert

[Guest guest]

to talk about the Lord in a ignorant way so the elders here can instruct us! but many guests are not devoutees here, only here to mess up!

[Guest guest]

The guest who talks about the esoteric stuff. Where did you get this info it is very interesting.

[Guest guest]

this is quite intressting, but Krsna says He is God and He showed it, and there are devotees who has experienced Krsna, as so much they are qualified, I for one has.. one thing you make is wrong, and that you say a "dead guru", guru are never dead, you think of him in worldy manner and that shows that you havent reached the enkightenment you tell us to seek.. Krsna says Himself that we should seek out a master and serve Him and ask Him questions in a humble state.. yes that is correct that we can only realize asmuch as God whants to, but He allows us to realize asmuch we are ready for..

 

that the energy of the Holy Name travels directly to Brahma is illusion my friend, because Gods energy surpasses all energys, it is said that all prayers and offerings ends up at Gods Hand and NOT the halfgod or demons hand, so these is illusion you are under.. Brahmas job is to maintain this universe, but NOT to keep us from God, this is wrong, Brahma is servent of Krsna, GOD.. look at gnosticism, the demiurg is evil but he cannot stop those whom search for God..

 

no Maya is what the christians would call satan, not Brahma, He is not trying to keep people from God, Devi is... Devi you can find in other religions to, Tiamt for example..

 

why call the inner master when we can ask God Himself? sorry but it sounds that you have much illusion yet to work out

[Guest guest]

Please forgive me, but I do have some questions. I am totally new to the whole Krishna concept. I just heard about it today. The gentleman that represented International Society of Krishna Consciousness spiked my curiosity of Krishna, so I started doing my own research and that is how I found this forum. First, I am a Christian and I believe in God. I believe God is omnipresent and I believe in the Son of God, Jesus Christ. What caught my eye and prompted me to write was that you said, "He didn't perform cheap miracles like multiplying food, etc." Now like I said, I am new to this Krishna concept, but for one I don't see how any miracle could be "cheap". That "cheap" miracle was an act of God. So what are you calling God? I guess my questions are (1) Do you (devotees) believe in the Heavenly Father, is this the Krishna you speak of? and (2) Do you believe in the accounts of the bible? .....Again, I am not knocking anyone or anything. I would like to just understand the concept of the Krishna belief.

[Guest guest]

jesu was as my Guru said, a great Guru and had the spirit of being Vaisnava, to ask bout Krsna shows that u have intelligence.. we are all children of God and not only jesu, that was maybe a blunt way to wright, "cheap miracle", the devotees here MUST learn to wright in a more subtle way that dont angers people.. yes we belief in a heavenly Father, a Father of ALL creatures, and He lives in Goloka Vrindava, the Highest spiritual sky.. I havet read the bible from back to back and havent asked my Guru bout it, but it talks bout Krsna I belive.. maybe some of the more serious and senior devotees then me can answer the bible question..

[Guest guest]

"Demo-god worship is allowed in Vedas and as per Gita as well for people in different levels of spiritual maturity. In India, during Kali Yuga the original teachings of Vedas were corrupted which lead some to believe Shiva as supreme."

 

Dear fellow devotee, Hare Krsna!!

Any one whO calls Lord Shiva a demi-God is nothing but a fool, may he be anyone!! And if you are trying to point to that prayin got Shiva is a corrupted Kaliyuga practice, then I would only feel sorry for your ignorance!! Of course, our Iskcon and Gaudiya "achintya Bheda-bhed Gaudiya Sampradaya, professes Krsna bhakti, as it is attached to his form, but to preach Lord Shiva as a mere "demi-God" is an offence not only to Lord Shiva, but to Lord Krsna too!!

[harshad]

Dear Guests who call us fools,

 

The Padma Puräna mentions ten biggest offenses in devotional service. The second offense is clearly written as follows :

 

"To consider that the Supreme Lord Vishnu and the demigods are on the same level or to think that there are many gods."

 

Furthermore, Sri Visvanätha Chakravarti Thakur Says,

 

Lord Brahma and Lord Siva are dependent on the Supreme Lord for theirs. This point has been confirmed in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (1.73):

 

yas tu näräyanam devam

samatvenaiva vikseta

brahma-rudrädi-daivataih

sa päsandi bhaved dhruvam

 

The scriptures also state that if a person, after considering all the facts, adamantly equates Lord Visnu with demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, and so on he is condemned as an atheist and an offender. The basis of this scriptural injunction lies in the fact that while Lord Brahma is generally an empowered jiva, Lord Siva at times is also an empowered jiva. Persons who have not researched deeply 'into this subject matter end up forming their own speculative ideas. They make such comments as, “Lord Visnu is God and not Lord Siva”, or “Lord Siva is the Supreme, not Lord Visnu.” They continue to say, 'We are undeviating devotees of Lord Visnu; we do not care for Lord Siva”, and vice versa. Hence their inclination to polemics leads them to commit offences. Now, the only way they can mitigate their offences is to meet a devotee well-versed in this topic who is willing to instruct them properly. The confused can become enlightened about everyone's real position, including in which way Lord Siva and Lord Visnu are qualitatively nondifferent.

 

In the Siva Puräna the Supreme Personality of Godhead told Lord Siva:

dväparädau yuge bhütvä kalayä mänusädisu

svägamaih kalpitais tvaà ca janän mad-vimukhän kuru

 

Translation : “In Kali-yuga, mislead the people in general by propounding imaginary meanings for the Vedas to bewilder them.”

 

Lord Siva himself says in the Siva Purana that, worship of Lord Vishnu is the topmost form of devotion. All genuine vaishnavas accept Lord Shiva as the topmost vaishnava. But you people, say that Shiva is topmost and blaspheme Lord Hari. Lord Shiva is not pleased by such activities.

 

Can any one of you those who claim that shiva is the supreme, produce one verse from the scriptures which says that "Lord Hari is in a lower position than Lord Shiva" ??? If you cannot do that, then do not open your mouths simply because you emotionally feel that Lord Shiva is the supreme personality of godhead. Give some proof from the vedic scriptures that Lord Shiva is above Lord Vishnu..

 

And as far as that person who claims that guru is dead, you should read this interview of Prabhupada :

 

Reporter : What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die?

 

Prabhupäda: I will never die.

Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)

Prabhupäda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize.

 

So, if you cannot understand how the guru lives eternally in vani, then do not put forward athiestic and rubbish statements.

 

And please get yourself registered, atleast let us call you by some names.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Shiva-tattva:

 

Lord Vishnu is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead. Lord Siva is in the marginal position between the Personality of Godhead and the living entities, or jivas. Brahma is always a jiva-tattva. The highest pious living being, or the greatest devotee of the Lord, is empowered with the potency of the Lord for creation, and he is called Brahma. His power is like the power of the sun reflected in valuable stones and jewels. When there is no such living being to take charge of the post of Brahma, the Lord Himself becomes a Brahma and takes charge of the post.

 

Lord Siva is not an ordinary living being. He is the plenary portion of the Lord, but because Lord Siva is in direct touch with material nature, he is not exactly in the same transcendental position as Lord Vishnu. The difference is like that between milk and curd. Curd is nothing but milk, and yet it cannot be used in place of milk.

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/1/3/5/en1

 

 

All the revealed scriptures are prepared by the Lord through His incarnation in the body of Srila Vyasadeva just to remind the fallen souls, conditioned by material nature, of Sri Krishna, the Personality of Godhead. No demigod can award freedom from material bondage.

....Even Lord Siva and Lord Brahma are included in the list of demigods, but Lord Vishnu, or Vasudeva, is always transcendentally situated.

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/1/2/28-29/en1

 

The summum bonum Krishna is one without a second. He Himself has expanded Himself in various parts, portions and particles as svayam-rupa, svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma, prabhava, vaibhava, vilasa, avatara, avesa, and jivas, all provided with innumerable energies just suitable to the respective persons and personalities. Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum Krishna to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But Sri Krishna is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma up to the categories of the avataras who are all vishnu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Siva, who is neither avatara nor avesa nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes. But the jivas, or the individual living beings in different statuses of life, possess up to the limit of seventy-eight percent of the attributes. In the conditioned state of material existence, the living being possesses these attributes in very minute quantity, varying in terms of the pious life of the living being. The most perfect of living beings is Brahma, the supreme administrator of one universe. He possesses seventy-eight percent of the attributes in full. All other demigods have the same attributes in less quantity, whereas human beings possess the attributes in very minute quantity. The standard of perfection for a human being is to develop the attributes up to seventy-eight percent in full. The living being can never possess attributes like Siva, Vishnu or Lord Krishna. A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, Vishnu or Krishna. He can become a Brahma in due course. The godly living beings who are all residents of the planets in the spiritual sky are eternal associates of God in different spiritual planets called Hari-dhama and Mahesa-dhama. The abode of Lord Krishna above all spiritual planets is called Krishnaloka or Goloka Vrindavana, and the perfected living being, by developing seventy-eight percent of the above attributes in fullness, can enter the planet of Krishnaloka after leaving the present material body.

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/1/3/28/en1

 

[Guest guest]

Jai Bhole Nath ki!!

 

Talking about Padma Purana, you guys shouldn't even be quoting Padma Purana, because, though you tend to take a few quotes from it, here and there, you tend to miss the biggest part of it - the SHIVA GITA!!!! This is a part that Srila Prabhupada never would have translated, hence nobody ever quotes it!!

Why don't you quote Lord Krsna in his earlier incarnation as Lord Ramachandra, bowing to Lord Maheswara Sadashiva and carrying out very sincere and strict sadhna of Shiva after receiving the ver special 'Virga' Diksha (initiation) for carrying out the sadhna of Lord Sadashiva? Why don't you quote Ramachandra singing unending praises to Lord Shiva as the beginning and end of the universe and present in every atom of the multitudes of universes and present in every living being and no living being?? No! You can't do that!! You just dismiss him as a tamasic demi-God! Why can't you quote when Lord Shiva shows his universsal form whilke giving the Gita to Lord Ramachandra (Krsna in his earlier form) and also shows the ten avataras in this universsal form including the Krsna avatara and the killing of Kamsa????

You probably would just wave it off as a "tamasic" scripture?? Or one meant for people of lower intelligence???

As an answer to your mountaineous ego, I challenge any disciple of Prabhupada (including all the current GBC "Gurus" and Ritviks and now fallen Gurus, and the Gaudiya sampradaya to show me one quote said by Lord Krisna emphasizingly stating that - consider Lord Shiva as a Demi-God.

Read the Mahabharata "Mudhas"!! Read the Anushasana Parva section 14th that Prabhupada failed to translate!!!

Read where Lord Krisna describes to Yudhushthira how he received the Pashupata initiation from sage Upamanyu and carried very strict sadhna / penance standing on one leg and surviving only on air, to please Sarva / Shiva. Read that chapter!! And then talk!! But if you follow Srila prabhupada strictly then you would not read it, as you are not allowed to read what he didn't translate!! Read when Lord Krsna receives the eight boons from Lord Sadashiva one of them including unending fame and love in all the worlds!!

If Krisna praised and prayed to Lord Shiva in Krisna avatara and Ramaavatara, then are you above Krsna to deject him???? How arrogant!!

I, as a staunch Shivaite, and as a staunch vaishnava (surprised? They are no different for Shiva was a Vaishnava and Krsna/ Rama became a Shaiva!) would readily go and serve in any Krsna Temple as a devotee and servant anywhere in India and abroad to Krsna bhaktas - Iskcon or not!! I would be a servant to any sincere Krsna Bhakta. Would you serve a Shaiva?? Why not? Krisna did! He served Upmanyu with complete humility! You can of course say in argument that Krsna serves his servants!! So it doesn't mean anything! Still you would want to claim Shiva as a servant and demi-God. But why this arrogance?? Krsna himself tells Yudhishthira, Lord Shiva saying to him that he (Lord Krsna) has prayed to him in every incarnation hundreds and thousands of times!! What harm would it bring us to pray to Shiva as the Maheswara along with the ever attracting and merciful Krsna? None at all, except our egos still want to play the politics of God positioning!!

Finally, there is no denying the fact that as Lord Krsna himself states that Lord Sadashiva said unto him that "there is no other person as dear to me as you and that you are my dearest devotee", we are attached to Lord Sri Krsna's form!! And that is excellent. We can chant the mahamantra and concentrate on Lord Sri Krsna and be free! But why this God-positioning and Lord Shiva bashing??? Who the @!#!@ are we to say anything about positioning Lord Shiva or Krsna anyway?? We are nothing!! With no accomplishments whatsoever!! We haven't even reached the lots feet of SriRadha-Krsna or Lord Sadashiva!!!! I think we should recognize our true place!

I woud humbly ask forgiveness of all vaishnavas and Shaivas for my strong words!! But I am fully aware of any offences / aparadhas that a devotee can make according to Jeeva Goswami and Padma Purana! And I wouldn't let Lord Shiva's name or Lord Krsna's name to be maligned in any way!! My words would be as hard for any Shiva bhakta who would want to lower Lord Sri Krsna - our jagad Guru and saviour!!

 

OM SHANTI!!

Om Namah Shivaya!!!

OM NAMAH BHAGAVATE VASUDEVAYA!

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

First of all let me say Prabhu that Srila Prabhupada is a great devotee of Lord Krishna, so you would do well to find out your answers in a humble and submmisive way, and not get sentimental and ovely angry in this situation.

 

Please read them with a calm mind:

 

 

 

For a Vaishnava there is no possibility of offending any demigods, and the demigods are also pleased with the Vaishnava because they are faultless devotees of Lord Vishnu.

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/7/49/en1 [Purport]

 

 

 

 

The five mantras mentioned in this connection are as follows: (1) Purusha, (2) Aghora, (3) Sadyojata, (4) Vamadeva, and (5) Isana. These five mantras are within the category of thirty-eight special Vedic mantras chanted by Lord Siva, who is therefore celebrated as Siva or Mahadeva. Another reason why Lord Siva is called Siva, which means "all-auspicious," is that he is self-illuminated, exactly like Lord Vishnu, who is the Paramatma. Because Lord Siva is directly an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, he is situated as Lord Vishnu's direct representative. This fact is corroborated by a Vedic mantra: patim visvasyatmesvaram sasvatam. sivam acyutam. The Supersoul is called by many names, of which Mahesvara, Siva and Acyuta are especially mentioned.

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/7/29/en1 [Purport]

 

 

 

 

Please read the following Chapter at the site given, you will see that Gaudiaya Vaishnava don't shy away from any subject as you have implied.

 

 

<font color="#666666">Lord Sasa-shiva drinks the posion: </font color>

 

TRANSLATION

O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

 

PURPORT

One may question that since the Supreme Personality of Godhead was personally present, why did He accompany all the demigods and people in general to take shelter of Lord Sadasiva, instead of intervening Himself. In this connection Srila Madhvacarya warns:

 

rudrasya yasaso 'rthaya

svayam vishnur visham vibhuh

na sanjahre samartho 'pi

vayum coce prasantaye

 

Lord Vishnu was competent to rectify the situation, but in order to give credit to Lord Siva, who later drank all the poison and kept it in his neck, Lord Vishnu did not take action.

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/7/19/en1

 

 

 

<font color="#666666">Material Universe and Prayers to Lord Sada-shiva by the Demi-Gods: </font color>

 

TRANSLATION

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

 

PURPORT

Actually Lord Vishnu maintains and accomplishes all good fortune. If one has to take shelter of Lord Vishnu, why should the demigods take shelter of Lord Siva? They did so because Lord Vishnu acts through Lord Siva in the creation of the material world. Lord Siva acts on behalf of Lord Vishnu. When the Lord says in Bhagavad-gita (14.4) that He is the father of all living entities (aham bija-pradah pita), this refers to actions performed by Lord Vishnu through Lord Siva. Lord Vishnu is always unattached to material activities, and when material activities are to be performed, Lord Vishnu performs them through Lord Siva. Lord Siva is therefore worshiped on the level of Lord Vishnu. When Lord Vishnu is untouched by the external energy He is Lord Vishnu, but when He is in touch with the external energy, He appears in His feature as Lord Siva.

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/7/22/en1

 

 

 

Please also read the above quotes, in the previous post, these are not to vilify anybody in fact they provide more clues as to your predicament. Thanking you.

[harshad]

First of all, you insult Prabhupäda by saying that he couldnt translate mahabharat, and then you go ahead to say that we should respect you. If you have no respect for the work done by Prabhupäda, then we do not have the slightest respect for you. Prabhupada has done what no other human being could have done at his age - translated the Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad bhagavatam AS IT IS and explained their meaning to the entire world - A task which many proud and erudite Saivites could not achieve for thousands of years. Nobody, and I mean nobody in the history of Vedic Culture has done what Srila Prabhupäda has done. Absolutely nobody. Going to the western countries and making thousands of Hare Krishnas. In sanskrit it is said :

 

"Na Bhuto Na Bhavishyati"

 

Translation : It has neither happened in the past, not will it happen in the future.

 

This is the special position of Prabhupäda.

 

The translation of Mahabharata has already been done in ISKCON by a devotee named Krishna Dharma Dasa...

 

You say that Lord Krsna prayed to Lord Siva for the Pasupata Astra. But did you not read srimad bhagavatam wherein the pastime of Lord Krsna fighting Banasura, when Lord Siva got angry and threw pasupata astra at Lord Krsna and Lord Krsna neutralised it by the Narayana Astra ???

 

We have great respect for Lord Shiva, because he is the greatest Vaishnava devotee of Lord Vishnu. The greatness of Lord Vishnu is that He sometimes comes under the control of His devotees (just like He came under the control of Yashoda Ma when she tied him up), but this should not be misunderstood and misinterpreted. Just because Lord Krsna displays these pastimes does not mean that He is in an inferior position.

 

Why dont you recollect and remember the mohini murti pastime, wherein Lord Krsna clearly demonstrated his superiority over Lord Shiva ???

 

Even Lord Brahma says in the brahma samhita :

 

isvarah paramah krsnah

sac-cid-änanda-vigrahah

anädir ädir govindah

sarva-kärana-käranam (Verse 1)

 

"There are many personalities possessing the qualities of Bhagavän, but Krsna is the supreme because none can excel Him. He is the Supreme Person, and His body is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. He is the primeval Lord Govinda and the cause of all causes."

 

This verse explains that there are many personalities like Lord Siva, who posess qualities of Krsna, but Krsna is the greatest.

 

That is why in the Bhagavad Gita , Krsna says :

 

sarva dharmän parityajya,

mäm ekam saranam vraja,

aham tvam sarva papebhyo,

moksayisyami ma suchah. (18.66)

 

Translation : Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

 

Also Lord Krsna says,

 

mattah parataram n&#257;nyat

kiñcid asti dhanañjaya

mayi sarvam idam protam

s&#363;tre mani-gan&#257;iva (7.7)

 

Translation : O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

 

Lord Krsna always followed the authorised process of initiation, just like He underwent training under a guru - Sri Sandipani Muni. But Krishna does this to set an example for all others. Otherwise, everyone else will not accept guru. So, dont think that just because Krsna took initiation from someone, so Krsna is not supreme.

 

Arjuna also fought Siva and defeated Siva to gain the pasupata-astra, so does that mean Arjuna is greater than Siva ??? Does that mean Arjuna is the Supreme ???

 

The number of verses in the vedas glorifying Lord Hari as the supreme are much much greater than the verses glorifying Lord Siva. It is therefore understood that, Lord Hari, who takes many incarnations is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Lord Siva is the pure devotee of Lord Krsna, and therefore He is glorified in all the three worlds.

 

Even Lord Siva affirms that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Visnu. Lord Siva says in the upanishads, mukti-pradätä sarvesäm visnur eva na samsayah: "There is no doubt that Visnu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone."

 

The verse is special because the words "na samsayah" mean there is no doubt about it.

 

In the Mahä Upanishad it is also said that Lord Siva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that it is the Supreme Lord Krsna, the creator of Brahmä and Siva, who is to be worshiped.

 

In the Moksa-dharma Krsna also says,

prajäpatim ca rudram cäpy

aham eva srjämi vai

tau hi mäm na vijänito

mama mäyä-vimohitau

 

Translation : "The patriarchs, Siva and others are created by Me, though they do not know that they are created by Me because they are deluded by My illusory energy."

 

In the Varäha Puräna it is also said,

näräyanah paro devas

tasmäj jätas caturmukhah

tasmäd rudro 'bhavad devah

sa ca sarva-jnanäm gatah

 

Translation : "Näräyana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahmä was born, from whom Siva was born."

 

 

So, in this way, I am giving proofs from outside Prabhupäda's books that Lord Siva is not the supreme. Now, can you find one verse which states that Lord Siva is the supreme absolute truth ????

 

Does Lord Siva say in any upanishad, purana or veda that he is the supreme absolute truth ????

 

We are not interested in bashing Lord Siva. Anyone who bashes Lord Siva (the topmost vaishnava) is not fit to worship Lord Krsna. But, it is to be clearly understood that, Lord Siva is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Only Lord Sri Krsna, the son of Nanda Maharaja, the Lotus eyed personality who awarded his childhood pastimes to Yashoda, that Krsna, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and nobody else.

 

Stop blaspheming Vaisnavas by calling them mudhas. We do study vedic scriptures, but only after studying Prabhupäda's books properly (because they are the foundation of our spiritual life).

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Why can't you quote when Lord Shiva shows his universsal form whilke giving the Gita to Lord Ramachandra (Krsna in his earlier form) and also shows the ten avataras in this universsal form including the Krsna avatara and the killing of Kamsa????

 

 

 

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/4/10/en1

The process of offering sacrifices is especially meant to <font color="red">satisfy Vishnu</font color> , who is called Yajnesa because He is the enjoyer of the fruits of all sacrifice. Bhagavad-gita (5.29) also confirms this fact. The Lord says, bhoktaram yajna-tapasam. He is the actual beneficiary of all sacrifices. Not knowing this fact, less intelligent men offer sacrifices for some material benefit. To derive personal material benefits for sense gratification is the reason persons like Daksha and his followers perform sacrifices. Such sacrifices are condemned here as a labor of love without actual profit. This is confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam. One may prosecute the Vedic injunctions of offering sacrifices and other fruitive activities, but if by such activities one does not develop attraction for Vishnu, they are useless labors. One who has developed love for Vishnu must develop love and respect for Vishnu's devotees. <font color="#666666">Lord Siva is considered the foremost personality amongst the Vaishnavas.</font color> Vaishnavanam yatha sambhuh. Thus when Sati saw that her father was performing great sacrifices but had no respect for the greatest devotee, Lord Siva, she was very angry. This is fitting; when Vishnu or a Vaishnava is insulted, one should be angry. Lord Caitanya, who always preached nonviolence, meekness and humility, also became angry when Nityananda was offended by Jagai and Madhai, and He wanted to kill them. When Vishnu or a Vaishnava is blasphemed or dishonored, one should be very angry. Narottama dasa Thakura said, krodha bhakta-dveshi jane. We have anger, and that anger can be a great quality when directed against a person who is envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or His devotee. One should not be tolerant when a person is offensive towards Vishnu or a Vaishnava. The anger of Sati towards her father was not objectionable, for although he was her father, he was trying to insult the greatest Vaishnava. Thus Sati's anger against her father was quite applaudable.

---

 

 

 

That Form is material form, it's not the same as the form krishna showed to Arjuna as Krishna says nobody had seen that form before him.

[Guest guest]

Nobody, and I mean nobody in the history of Vedic Culture has done what Srila Prabhupäda has done.***

 

WHat spectacular thing did SP do that nobody in the history of vedic culture has ever done? Did he burn his toast? lol. Seriously, it is good that you have respect for SP, but he was an ordinary man with great love for Krishna, that's all. Don't EVER call him the greatest ever in Vedic history. That would mean you're ignorant of Vedic history.

 

Going to the western countries and making thousands of Hare Krishnas****

 

So are the Sai babas, ravishankars, Ammachis making thousands of Vedantins. So what's your point? SP was a 2oth century guy with lots of opportunity for travel, you wouldn't except a medieval saint to preach all over the planet traveling by sea.

 

Plus, 20th century western world was more open to these ideas, having suffered two world wars and countless other wars and crises. When the west was wallowing in the dark ages with witch-hunting, stool-drinking and other vile practices, you wouldn't expect a Vedic saint to go there and preach, would you? But SP didn't have that problem, aside from a few rednecks who were angels compared to their counterparts during the dark ages. So what SP 'accomplished' was nothing extraordinary, kala and patra determined his success.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

A heart of stone. Give up your false petty knowledge.

 

Seeya later, i'm leaving this forum, don't wanna hang around with fools like you here. Your a complete idiot, who cannot see a pure devotee. And you call yourself a Shiva-bhakta, your a disgrace. I said those things for your own good, hope it helps you, hare krishna.

[harshad]

Dear Mr. So called Dvaitin,

 

See the fault in your own logic : First of all you say, that Prabhupäda was an ordinary man and then you say that he had great love for Krsna. But an ordinary man does not have great love for Krsna. Do the ordinary people on the streets have love for Krsna. It clearly shows what you think about love of Krsna.

 

I asked you, Mr. Scholar, give me one verse from the Vedas, why did you not do that ???? Weak heartedness ????

 

Sai baba is already cheating the people by calling himself god and you support him. So that makes you another cheater. Ravishankar is not offering even a trace of Vedic literature. He is teaching "The Art of Living" whereas the Bhagavad Gita teaches the art of dying, i.e. how to die like a devotee.

 

And all those initiated followers of Ravi Shankar and Sai baba dont follow any regulative principles and they are attached to drinking tea. So, atleast you should consider that initiated, serious devotees in ISKCON follow 4 regulative principles. Nobody in India has openly criticized demigod worship except Srila Prabhupada, and this is the reason why you are so much envious of him.

 

If you want to go ahead and worship the demigods, you have your freewill. But dont come around here with your bogus propoganda without giving sastra-praman. Krishna is always watching, and you have already insulted Prabhupada by calling his achievement just a play of time, place and circumstance. You are also one of those athiests who say that everything happens by chance. Take this theory of chance out of these forums. Madhvacharya and Sankaracarya wont be happy if they hear this. Dont be proud of your knowledge. Caitanya Mahaprabhu defeated the proud dvaitins of the Madhva school and the impersonalists of the Sankara school.

 

It is well documented in scriptures that Bhakti Devi will go to the western countries from Vrindavana. It is the same path which was followed by Prabhupada. He went from Vrindavana to the west and created so many hare krishnas.

 

All the other spiritual organisations break apart when the original founder passes away, but despite many difficulties, ISKCON has survived and stands as a single unit. It is growing day by day (especially in the western countries)

 

 

Even Madhvacarya himself said that "The time is not far when bhakti will cross the shores of India". The first and the last person to achieve this target is Prabhupada, who comes in the disciplic succession of Madhvacarya.

 

I can clearly see your hatred for the Bengali Vaishnavas. This will not help in your spiritual advancement.

 

You can read this portion of a lecture on Bhagavad Gita given by Prabhupada in New York , December 2 1966 :

 

" There are five stages of evolution: sakta, then gänapatya, then saura, then saiva, then vaisnava. In this way, there are five stages. So the impersonalists, they worship in five ways, pancopäsanä. They are called pancopäsanä. So one, when he comes to the Visnu stage, he comes to the real stage. But (not) impersonal Visnu, all-pervading Visnu, but when he come to the personal Visnu, then that is perfection of worship."

 

So in prabhupadas own words, saivites are on the fourth level and vaishnavas on the topmost level.

 

If you want to read an unbiased article on Lord Siva written by Satyaraja Prabhu (disciple of prabhupada), simply download the following file :

 

Download Link 1

 

Download Link 2 (If First doesnt work)

 

And yes, only reply back if you have something to say from the scriptures, not your own whims.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Take some rest. I never called myself a Shiv Bhakt. From my username, it should be obvious that I am a Vaishnav. But your anger is blocking your vision. If you cannot dispute facts, don't run like a coward. Fight like a man. But then again, most GVs aren't men anymore, thanks to SP's powerful influence. Bye bye, sis!

[Guest guest]

I am Dvaitin and I don't care for any demigod worship, so your point is immaterial. The central issue is whether SP can claim to be the greatest that Vedic culture has ever produced? If you say yes, that's an insult to Vedic culture. Prove that he was greater than Madhva, Ramanuja and host of other great men. He was nothing compared to them.

 

AS to Chaitanya defeating Madhvites, there is no pramAnas for that except some bogus stories collected from Chaitanya Bhagwat or what you will. Up to date, there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence of Chaitanya or any other GV defeating Dvaitins. It is a complete fabrication which you'd like to believe, because the truth is hard to swallow.

 

As to Shiva, I consider him a devata, that's all. I never said he was superior to Vishnu.

[harshad]

You opened your mouth again without giving any sastric pramana. And now you are asking me to prove that Prabhupada is greater than Madhva or Ramanuja. I do not consider myself fit to do this job because I cannot compare two acharyas of the same sampradaya. I would ruin my spiritual life if i did that. I never said that SP was greater than Madhva. I only said he was the greatest acarya of this golden age of 10000 years in kaliyuga.

 

What is the proof that Lord Caitanya did not defeat the dvaitins ??? Go to the temples in south india and you will find the pictures and footmarks of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu imprinted in many madhva temples. Dont make up bogus stories , you did not offer any pramana from sastras that siva was greatest and now you come up with half baked statements like these. Caitanya Mahaprabhu toured the entire country and made many devotees like Tukaram.

 

you have not read caitanya caritamrita and you are acting exactly like a puffed up dwaitin. If you dont like Gaudiya Vaishnavas, thats alright.

 

And dont be too proud. You must be knowing His Holiness Pejawar Swami Maharaj from the Sri Pejawar Math of Udupi, established by Madhvacarya... He has to say the following words about iskcon :

 

Pejawar Swamiji's introductory speech in ISKCON conference :

 

"ISKCON is a world wide movement established by Srila Prabhupada specifically with the aim of propagating Vishnu Bhakti. All the Vaishnava Acharyas desired this and only this society is capable of spreading Vishnu bhakti. In this endeavour we offer our help & co-operation to solve the problems of this society.

 

So stop comparing Madhva and Prabhupada and help propogating the vaishnava dharma if you can. Your LOL's will not help you at the time of your death, nor will these anger fuelled statements against the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. THIS IS THE AGE OF THE GAUDIYA VAISHNAVAS... If you dont believe it, read the following statements by the Sri Vaishnavas :

 

Forty-six years before the beginning of Kali Yuga,

Vishnuchitta, one of the twelve great Vaisnava saints

of the Sri Sampradaya predicted:

 

"There will come a race which will tread the Earth with raised hands and vertical tilaka on their foreheads, who will chant the names of Hari; this will destroy the influence of Kali." (Divyaprabandha 1.10).

 

Sripada Ramanuja predicted: "The pure devotion to Sri

Hari devoid of karma and jnana will grow and grow like

a banyan tree covering the whole world, teaching

everyone who takes shelter." (Prapannamrta tarpana -

last chapter)

 

Sripada Madhvacharya predicted: "The real knowledge of

the difference between jiva and Sri Hari and the

service of Sri Hari will spread all over the world

very shortly." (Anu Madhva Vijaya - last chapter)

 

 

KRSNA SAYS IN ATHARVA VEDA : "Towards the end of the

period between four-thousand to five thousand years in

Kali-yuga, I will descend on the earth as Gauranga, a

golden-complexioned saintly brahmana in a place by the

Ganges' shore and later become the crest-jewel of all

sannyasis, exhibiting all My transcendental qualities

including supreme renunciation and complete detachment

from material desires. In the form of Lord Gauranga, I

will display all the thirty-two bodily symptoms of a

great personality with my arms extending to my knees.

I will become my own devotee, very advanced in

bhakti-yoga and teach the worship of Lord Krsna

(Myself) by the chanting of My own holy names and

relishing the mellows of My own devotional service. At

that time only My most confidential devotees will be

able to understand Me." - (Atharva Veda, third

khanda, Brahma-vibhaga) Caitanya Upanisad of Atharva

Veda (the whole text of 19 verses)

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Who in the

Satya-yuga appeared as a half-man half-lion to cure a

terrible disease that has ravaged the daityas, and Who

in Treta-yuga appeared as a person named Rama, a

person who defeated the ten-headed demon Ravana, and

Who in the Dvapara-yuga removed the earth's burden and

protected the gopa people of Vraja-pura, will appear

again in the Kali-yuga. His form will be golden, He

will delight in chanting the Lord's holy names, and

His name will Caitanya. (Nrsimha Purana)

 

and yes, the most emphatic statement in the way only prabhupada could say it :

 

"Krishna has taken birth in the womb of the

Krishna Consciousness Movement!" - Srila Prabhupada

 

 

So stop being a fool...and stop criticizing gaudiya vaishnavas...

[Guest guest]

What is the proof that Lord Caitanya did not defeat the dvaitins ???***

 

What a foolish question! If you make a statement that GVs defeated Dvaitins, you must substantiate it with facts. Until then, you're a liar. I don't have to prove anything. You made the assertion, so you prove it. I don't have to prove a negative proposition.

 

Go to the temples in south india and you will find the pictures and footmarks of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu imprinted in many madhva temples.***

 

Oh yes, that's solid proof. I too have Jean-Claude Van Damme pics, so he must've defeated my ancestors in wrestling contests, specially my skinny old grandpa.

 

Caitanya Mahaprabhu toured the entire country and made many devotees like Tukaram.***

 

This isn't about Chaintanya's greatness. You said SP was the greatest, but became angry when questioned and now you're babbling about Chaitanya's Indian tour.

 

Dont make up bogus stories , you did not offer any pramana from sastras that siva was greatest***

 

Why should I prove that Shiva is the greatest when I believe in Vishnu Sarvottama? You're deluded, that's all I can say.

 

The rest of your quotes are bogus, so no need to go into them.