Is Krishna God?

[harshad]

If you are going to give such a flawed analogy (footprints of the Supreme Lord compared to Van Damme ????) , please do not indulge in mindless debates. You donot believe in Caitanya Charitamrita, so what is the point of telling you about it. The vedanta sutra clearly says :

 

tarka pratishtanat

 

Translation : Existence of God cannot be proven or disproven by logical arguments.

 

You are asking for a proof. The proof is Caitanya Caritamrita. Of course, you have to read it before you can pass a judgement on it. And you have not read it (otherwise you would not have made such statements).

 

If you have photographs of Van Damme on your wall, I would rather not talk to you, because I do not like to talk to a person who calls himself vishnu bhakta and at the same time, keeps pictures of materialistic people in his home. This is sheer hypocrisy, and it does not suit a visnu bhakta.

 

Srila Prabhupada is the greatest and most merciful acarya of the golden age (10000 years - starting from 500 years back) because he was the only one who took the bhagavata dharma to western countries and presented it without any deviation. He gave credit to all vaishnavas where required and always acted as Krishna's servant. These things may be difficult for you to understand, but I cannot help it.

 

You cannot appreciate or decry any personality without reading about his life first.

 

Madhvacarya or Ramanujacarya may be the highest acarya in your understanding. But for a fallen person like me, Prabhupada is the best acarya. Because, it was Prabhupadas books that saved me. He presented to all of us in simple language what madhvacarya and ramanujacarya presented in a language difficult for us to understand. So, you can read the sanskrit texts of madhvacarya and ramanujacarya and you can think of prabhupada as an ordinary person, but I guarantee you, no acarya will be happy by your behaviour.

 

näham vipro na ca nara-patir näpi vaisyo na südro

näham varni na ca grha-patir no vanastho yatir vä

kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramänanda-pürnämrtäbdher

gopi-bhartuh .-kamalayor däsa-däsänudäsah

(Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu - CC Madhya 13.80)

 

Translation : “‘I am not a brähmana, I am not a ksatriya, I am not a vaisya or a südra. Nor am I a brahmacäri, a householder, a vänaprastha or a sannyäsi. I identify Myself only as the servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna, the maintainer of the gopis. He is like an ocean of nectar, and He is the cause of universal transcendental bliss. He is always existing with brilliance.’”

 

Sorry but I dont want to continue this debate because it is getting more and more offensive. I am humbly moving out of here.

 

sarva lokam sukhino bhavantu - Let everyone in all the worlds be happy.

[Guest guest]

sada-shiva [re: Guest]

12/03/05 12:42 PM

Edit

Reply

 

?"First of all let me say Prabhu that Srila Prabhupada is a great devotee of Lord Krishna, so you would do well to find out your answers in a humble and submmisive way, and not get sentimental and ovely angry in this situation."

Dear Govindaram Prabhu, Om Namah Shivay!!

I do accept Srila Prabhupada's being a great Krsna devotee! There are two kinds of people in Iskcon. One kind is submissive, but a majority of them are good but provocative and want to fight and prove and stress their own points to others. Though they try to follow the essential qualities of a Vaishanava of love and compassion, they also love to preach their own doctrine ONLY and absolutely fail to take anything accept their own doctrine impounded by Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada has been very heavy, blunt and hard dealing with all other branches or representatives of other systems to prove his own in his lifetime and you follow that example. That is fine as long as you don't cross the line. Iskcon is a bright example and flag carrier of Sri Chaitanya Gaudiya school of Vaishnavism which is dvaita. This is authentic and recognized. I accept this line of bhakti and devotion. And main accent is on devotional relation to the Lord. Not that this is missing in other branches of VEDIC disciplines like Kriya, Raj yoga, Tantra. But it is not the only element there. There are other branches of knowledges very important to man's spiritual and material evolution. Only feelings are not enough to live in this world. If that was the case then Iskcon leader all over the world would not be so busy collecting money for preaching! But since many devotees have a schooling of fighting and defeating other 'schools of thought' in comparison while preaching their own, they tend to fight and put down others. This is a disturbing trend being followed by everyone here. The internet and otherwise life examples are full of it. The sole reason of giving purports and quotes, memorizing chapter and quote number so and so is to defeat another person in an argument that you so often get into! Constant GOD positioning is a vital part of the philosophy. This is the reason for getting 'sentimental' and 'overly angry in this situation'.

??"For a Vaishnava there is no possibility of offending any demigods, and the demigods are also pleased with the Vaishnava because they are faultless devotees of Lord Vishnu.?http://srimadbhagavatam.com/4/7/49/en1 [Purport]"

 

The demigods are equally pleased with the Shiavas because they are faultless devotees of Lord Shiva! ?????The five mantras mentioned in this connection are as follows: (1) Purusha, (2) Aghora, (3) Sadyojata, (4) Vamadeva, and (5) Isana. These five mantras are within the category of thirty-eight special Vedic mantras chanted by Lord Siva, who is therefore celebrated as Siva or Mahadeva. Another reason why Lord Siva is called Siva, which means "all-auspicious," is that he is self-illuminated, exactly like Lord Vishnu, who is the Paramatma. Because Lord Siva is directly an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, he is situated as Lord Vishnu's direct representative. This fact is corroborated by a Vedic mantra: patim visvasyatmesvaram sasvatam. sivam acyutam. The Supersoul is called by many names, of which Mahesvara, Siva and Acyuta are especially mentioned.?http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/7/29/en1 [Purport]??The problem is that all your mantras come basically from Srimadbhagwatam. It is a good Purana. But there are other Puranas. Why don't you read Shiv Mahapurana. Why don't you quote Lord Shiva's appearance? Even Vishnu and Brahma fail to find his beginning and end upon seeing the vast phallic shivalinga of fire appear before them at the beginning of everything. Why don't you read this? This is also written by Sri Ved Vyasa! And again, you would read a scripture that is translated and purported by Sril Prabhupada. This is officially recognized. You won't read a scripture translated by for example, the Gita Press or another press accept your own BBT. The purports are given in line with the Vaishnava philosophy that do not essentially recognize Lord Shiva as the Supreme personality of Godhead! But others do!! This is a fact! And this fact has been impounded by Lord SriKrsna himself in Mahabharata!! And that's why Srila Prabhupada failed to translate that part!! He didn't need that!

One verse can really be translated in different lights! Like in Shiv Samhita, Lord Shiva describes various spiritual paths and beliefs followed by men, and says that the path of Yoga is supreme than other path but it should be given to a bhakta only! Now, you practicing bhakti yoga only can translate that since it mentions bhakta only, it means that bhakti is the only way and once you are a bhakta why do you need any other yoga? If that were the case, Lord Sri Krsna wouldn't have wasted so much time describing the various systems of yogas to Arjuna. So Srila Prabhupada's chief accent was on bhakti and devotion. That's why the sum total of everything has been termed as KC. In his purports, he says Krsna as saying that one should cultivate KC. But let me ask you, don't the Yogis do that too? Why do call Yogis as materialists?? You also believe it because they concentrate on their body parts!! That's so hilarious! Chakras are not exactly gross physical body parts. Also, a fact that mere reading a book cannot give a person enlightenment! We are hardly able to use the full potential of our brains, not to talk about fully understanding the consciousness. Can God be completely comprehended by readings? Chakras open the human conscious and bring it to a divine level where it is more perceptible to divinity. The Lord himself was preaching to Arjuna, but still there were doubts in his mind. And finally Krsna had to open his third eye or Agya chakra to reveal his true form that was not possible with gross physical vision. What's wrong with developing that? But yes one can still nothing and wait for mercy to fall on him. That is a way too. Love and devotion are very important. But so is Kriya and the right knowledge of using mantras and Prana.???"Please read the following Chapter at the site given, you will see that Gaudiaya Vaishnava don't shy away from any subject as you have implied.???Lord Sasa-shiva drinks the posion: "

Who is "Sasa" ????"TRANSLATION?O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him."

 

Upto translatio, its fine, but again the purport starts inciting the whys and giving another question aiming to again positioning. Even though they may talk about it, but the purports again emphasize that though this was good, BUT Krsna is SUPERIOR to Siva etc. He wanted to give credit to Siva or he wanted to praise his bhakta etc etc. That's the cunning sideline that is always there! So even if you see the Lord's greatness, you would see purport again bending your mind towards something like "oh he did that because..." which can at times be a lot to speculate on. The purports in such cases also explain that you remain in our fold and do not go to bow before any other form of the Lord. Now because Siva is a direct representative of (I like the corporate terms and Manager like positioning attitude.lol) or Vishnu is a direct representative of Shiva is a different story altogether. A tiny particle like ourself crawling on the surface of this earth shouldn't really be arrogantly doing that positioning thing at all!! So much for Vaishnava humbleness!

?"PURPORT?One may question that since the Supreme Personality of Godhead was personally present, why did He accompany all the demigods and people in general to take shelter of Lord Sadasiva, instead of intervening Himself. In this connection Srila Madhvacarya warns:??rudrasya yasaso 'rthaya?svayam vishnur visham vibhuh?na sanjahre samartho 'pi?vayum coce prasantaye??Lord Vishnu was competent to rectify the situation, but in order to give credit to Lord Siva, who later drank all the poison and kept it in his neck, Lord Vishnu did not take action.?http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/7/19/en1 "?

Why did Madhavacharya had to "warn" against anything here?? Surely if Vishnu wanted Shiva to get the credit, then what's the 'Warning' about?? So that you do not develop devotion for Shiva or what?? What's the reason for this "warning" here?? What's the danger???

?" Material Universe and Prayers to Lord Sada-shiva by the Demi-Gods: ??TRANSLATION?O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship. "

Okay. This translation is right. So what's the problem folks?? I think you you read and accept more of purports than he translations. When the Demi-Gods saying Lord Shiva is the master of this universe, and the cause of its birth and liberation and that one should surrender unto him then where is the doubt?? But wait a minute, this will be problamatic! So, then comes the purport - "Actually ..." The Lord gives a free will to act to even a puny human. And Oh my God! Look here what the purport suggests that Lord Shiva cannot even act on his own!! And only the writer of the purport reveals this as he seams to know the internal agreement how they work!! Wow! That's fantastic!

Yes in BG, Krsna says he is the Lord of all living entities. But then in Shiv Gita Lord Shiva and in Mahabharata KRSNA HIMSELF says that Lord Shiva IS the father and Lord of all Living entities!!! HE is in the heart of everyone!" And we should quote that too!! As Such there is no contradiction in being a complete devotee to either! And you should understand this point!

??" PURPORT?Actually Lord Vishnu maintains and accomplishes all good fortune. If one has to take shelter of Lord Vishnu, why should the demigods take shelter of Lord Siva? They did so because Lord Vishnu acts through Lord Siva in the creation of the material world. Lord Siva acts on behalf of Lord Vishnu. When the Lord says in Bhagavad-gita (14.4) that He is the father of all living entities (aham bija-pradah pita), this refers to actions performed by Lord Vishnu through Lord Siva. Lord Vishnu is always unattached to material activities, and when material activities are to be performed, Lord Vishnu performs them through Lord Siva. Lord Siva is therefore worshiped on the level of Lord Vishnu. When Lord Vishnu is untouched by the external energy He is Lord Vishnu, but when He is in touch with the external energy, He appears in His feature as Lord Siva.?http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/7/22/en1 "??" Please also read the above quotes, in the previous post, these are not to vilify anybody in fact they provide more clues as to your predicament. Thanking you. ??(www.souldefinition) ?"hena nitai bina bhai radha-krishna paite nai" ??That without the mercy of Lord Nityananda, no one can attain Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. ??Post Extras:

[Guest guest]

Re: Blasphemy [re: Guest]

12/03/05 12:55 PM HARSHAD junior member

Edit

Reply

 

"First of all, you insult Prabhupäda by saying that he couldnt translate mahabharat, and then you go ahead to say that we should respect you. "

You get so touchy about your being respectful while disrespecting others! Not fair! I do not disrespect Srila Prabhupada!! And there is no disrespect is saying that he couldn't translate that part of Mahabharata dealing with Krsna praying to Lord Shiva and singing his praises as the SUpreme Lord!! He simply did not do that!! He couldn't! And it is understandable! What's wrong with that? Where does disrespect come in?

"If you have no respect for the work done by Prabhupäda, then we do not have the slightest respect for you."

Well, you know what? I don't care for your respect! Your intellect is very biased! And it is not free to understand or accept anything other than what you currently believe in! But I do respect Prabhupada's work. It is very commendable.

" Prabhupada has done what no other human being could have done at his age - translated the Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad bhagavatam AS IT IS and explained their meaning to the entire world - A task which many proud and erudite Saivites could not achieve for thousands of years. Nobody, and I mean nobody in the history of Vedic Culture has done what Srila Prabhupäda has done. Absolutely nobody. Going to the western countries and making thousands of Hare Krishnas. In sanskrit it is said :?"Na Bhuto Na Bhavishyati"?Translation : It has neither happened in the past, not will it happen in the future.?This is the special position of Prabhupäda. "

You just described the position of a translator!!

Before Prabhupada, Vivekananda and Parmahansa Yogananda brought to the west the Vedic knowledge too. Prabhupada sold more books and made more disciples and gathered more crowd. He was a boon for the totally materialistic minded westerners. HE changed their lives. That was a very commendable accomplishment and he should be respected an loved for that. But there are accomplishments that many Vedic Rishis and even prominent Yogis did in the past 200 years that Sril Prabhupada never did! Everyone don't have to do the same one thing! And claiming that book distribution is the most commendable accomplishment of human life, is also not true. ??" The translation of Mahabharata has already been done in ISKCON by a devotee named Krishna Dharma Dasa... "

I would like to see that. Oh... and what do the purports say in that chapter? Something like .... 'Krsna let Shiva get some credit' or what???" You say that Lord Krsna prayed to Lord Siva for the Pasupata Astra. But did you not read srimad bhagavatam wherein the pastime of Lord Krsna fighting Banasura, when Lord Siva got angry and threw pasupata astra at Lord Krsna and Lord Krsna neutralised it by the Narayana Astra ??? "

Read carefully!! You have nothing to quote here from, because Prabhupada failed to translate that part of Mahabharata!! LOL! Hence you mistakenly said "Krsna prayed to Lord Shiva for Pashupatastra"! No Krsna did not pray to Lord Sadashiva Maheswara to acquire Pashipatastra, but to have a glorious son just like himself!!??"We have great respect for Lord Shiva, because he is the greatest Vaishnava devotee of Lord Vishnu. The greatness of Lord Vishnu is that He sometimes comes under the control of His devotees (just like He came under the control of Yashoda Ma when she tied him up), but this should not be misunderstood and misinterpreted. Just because Lord Krsna displays these pastimes does not mean that He is in an inferior position. "

We have great respect for Krsna because he is the greatest devotee of Lord Sadashiva and the greatest Shiava!! So does Lord Shiva let his devotees please him! And no, nobody can claim Sri Krsna Bhagawan to be inferior in any way! Not me!! I'm just a small particle of dust lying under the mat of Lord Shiva!! I'm not even fit for reaching the lotus feat of Lord Krsna and serving him. But I DO NOT argue into who is superior and inferior. This is a top agenda in Iskcon devotees!! And this is sad!!

??"Why dont you recollect and remember the mohini murti pastime, wherein Lord Krsna clearly demonstrated his superiority over Lord Shiva ??? "

 

Again this is another bright example of your love for God positioning! Who is Superior and who is inferior! What do you want to prove?? I think it will bring you more spiritual benefit by doing your own sadhna and rising in your relation to Sri Krsna, than decide who is governing the universe more. It is like a two year old kid shouting in the street, who has to be the next President.

?Even Lord Brahma says in the brahma samhita :??isvarah paramah krsnah?sac-cid-änanda-vigrahah?anädir ädir govindah?sarva-kärana-käranam (Verse 1)??"There are many personalities possessing the qualities of Bhagavän, but Krsna is the supreme because none can excel Him. He is the Supreme Person, and His body is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. He is the primeval Lord Govinda and the cause of all causes."

Yes and Lord Shiva also says to Krsna that none else can compare you in your bhakti and excellence to please me! This is confirmed by Krsna himself to Yudhishthira!!??"This verse explains that there are many personalities like Lord Siva, who posess qualities of Krsna, but Krsna is the greatest."

 

What this verse explains is clear from what is says. But what you add on to it is different. And that's your dilution of Vedic knowledge! Though you trumpet it to be purest Vedic to gather the crowd. My sanskrit is fairly good and there is no mention of Lord Shiva's name here. But what your commentary adds if "Like Shiva" is nto even present in this sloka. Certainly you can tell the Americans and the Russians that! And some of the so called Hindus who do not read their own scriptures!! LOL! What a manipulation trip!?

?"That is why in the Bhagavad Gita , Krsna says :??sarva dharmän parityajya,?mäm ekam saranam vraja,?aham tvam sarva papebhyo,?moksayisyami ma suchah. (18.66)??Translation : Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear. "

Yes So true!! You should surrender yourself to Lord Sri Krsna!! But he does not say that do not surrender to Lord Shiva. He asks Arjuna to surrender to him. And Krsna himself describes later how he surrendered to Lord Shiva before this. One can completely surrender to Lord Sri Krsna and be free and go back to Godhead. There is no place for doubt on this. But when you claim that Shiva cannot free or liberate then you start contradicting scriptures. That is interfaith politics. And there is no end to this argument!

?"Also Lord Krsna says,??mattah parataram nānyat?kiñcid asti dhanañjaya?mayi sarvam idam protam?sūtre mani-ganāiva (7.7)??Translation : O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.??Lord Krsna always followed the authorised process of initiation, just like He underwent training under a guru - Sri Sandipani Muni. But Krishna does this to set an example for all others. Otherwise, everyone else will not accept guru. So, dont think that just because Krsna took initiation from someone, so Krsna is not supreme."

Krsna is Supreme and no human can state otherwise. And he opens the doors to sol liberation from the samsaric cycle of birth and death. But so is Shiva and there also is no denying that! Why the hell in the first place do you get into this God positioning. Why do you wanna prove it?? What's there to prove?? You are anyway so far from Shiva or Krsna !! So what's the big deal about it?

?"Arjuna also fought Siva and defeated Siva to gain the pasupata-astra, so does that mean Arjuna is greater than Siva ??? Does that mean Arjuna is the Supreme ???"

Again this superior positioning fanaticism! The way in which you translate the scriptures is not very right! Especially the light in which the purports mould a particular verse!! You say "Arjuna defeated Shiva"!! Lord Shiva appeared to test his devotion and steadfastness in his bhakti to Shiva. And no he wasn't really "defeated" either. Upon confirming Arjuna's determination, he revealed himself to him. And now by giving this example, you are trying to show that since Lord Shiva let Arjuna win, hence Lord Vishnu let's Shiva show himself as superior at times, but actually the case is otherwise. That's a shallow talk! ??"The number of verses in the vedas glorifying Lord Hari as the supreme are much much greater than the verses glorifying Lord Siva. It is therefore understood that, Lord Hari, who takes many incarnations is the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

You do not even read the vedas and Puranas! Condemning everything else except Bhagwatam and Gita as tamasic or inferior!! lol! Why don't you also read Devi Bhagwatam then? Nand Maharaj and Lord Krsna's wives and his Aunty Queen Kunti devi also were great Shiva bhaktas. The Vedic times are full of Shiva devotion and sadhnas. Lord Ramachandra's forefathers were traditionally Sun and Shiva worshipers. So was Lord Ramachandra!! He wasn't God positioning!! WHy do you?? That is the state of Kaliyuga!! And that's why I call people like that Mudhas!! Who themselves do not have a level, but want to level one form of God against the other!! ??" Lord Siva is the pure devotee of Lord Krsna, and therefore He is glorified in all the three worlds.?Even Lord Siva affirms that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Visnu. Lord Siva says in the upanishads, mukti-pradätä sarvesäm visnur eva na samsayah: "There is no doubt that Visnu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone."

Yes. And Vishnu is a great devotee of Lord Shiva!! Due to his unending devotion in every incarnation, Lord Shiva presented him with the Glorious 'Sudarshana Chakra' !! ?And yes Lord Shiva says that Lord Vishnu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone here, but he did not say that he himself is not so!! And that's the point that I want to put across!! This DOES NOT mean that Lord Shiva is not a liberator. In the beginning of your post, even you quoted all the Gods praying to Lord Shiva that he is the Liberator of the Universe and everyone.

?"The verse is special because the words "na samsayah" mean there is no doubt about it."

Yes, we don't have any doubt it. What's the reason for doubts when himself Lord Shiva is saying it!! But only if you can reach Lord Vishnu! Now you have to see if you can reach him or not! ANd that is practical knowledge, apart from what is written in the scriptures.

?"In the Mahä Upanishad it is also said that Lord Siva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that it is the Supreme Lord Krsna, the creator of Brahmä and Siva, who is to be worshiped."

Uh... excuse me? Krsna created Shiva? Was that after he killed Kamsa or before that?? Krsna appeared after the Satya Yuga! And Lord Rama was already praying to Lord Shiva then!! oh... you mean... Vishnu was the creator of Brahma! What the Vedas say.... is a bit different than what you really translate and understand. You just talked about Sankarshana appearing from the Lord. If you read the Shiva MahaPurana, it clearly states Lord Shiva to be present much before that and as he manifests his phallic form made of a great fire column, even Vishnu and Brahma are not able to know its origin or end. He is the Adi-deva, means one who has no beginning and no end! He is the Maheswara - Iswara is God and Maheswara is the Supreme or the greatest God. He is the Mahadeva - the God of all Gods!! ??"In the Moksa-dharma Krsna also says,?prajäpatim ca rudram cäpy?aham eva srjämi vai?tau hi mäm na vijänito?mama mäyä-vimohitau??Translation : "The patriarchs, Siva and others are created by Me, though they do not know that they are created by Me because they are deluded by My illusory energy." ?

Okay. Again, here Krsna uses the term "prajäpatim ca rudram cäpy" he says Rudra, and you say Shiva! you get your terms messed up. This is because of no knowledge about the true forms of Lord Sadashiva! There are many many Rudras appearing at different times and carrying out different functions. But Lord Sadashiva is the Supreme. He is the 'Swayambhu' one who is self created.

 

Sri Bhisma Pitamah, whom Lord Krsna hold in the highest esteem says to Yudhishthira upn his asking him to tell him about Mahadeva :"Bhishma said, 'I am quite incompetent to recite the virtues of Mahadeva of highest intelligence. He pervades all things in the universe and yet is not seen anywhere. He is the creator of universal self and the Pragna (knowing) self and he is their master. All the deities, from Brahman to the Pisachas, adore and worship him. He transcends both Prakriti and Purusha. It is of Him that Rishis, conversant with Yoga and possessing a knowledge of the tattwas, think and reflect. He is indestructible and Supreme Brahman. He is both existent and non-existent. Agitating both Prakriti and Purusha by means of His energy, He created therefrom the universal lord of creatures, viz., Brahma. Who is there that is competent to tell the virtues of that god of gods, that is endued with supreme Intelligence? Man is subject to conception (in the mother's womb), birth, decrepitude, and death. Being such, what man like me is competent to understand Bhava? Only Narayana, O son, that bearer of the discus and the mace, can comprehend Mahadeva. He is without deterioration. He is the foremost of all beings in attributes. He is Vishnu, because of his pervading the universe. He is irresistible. Endued with spiritual vision, He is possessed of supreme Energy. He sees all things with the eye of Yoga. It is in consequence of the devotion of the high-souled Krishna to the illustrious Rudra whom he gratified. O Bharata, in the retreat of Vadari, by penances, that he has succeeded in pervading the entire universe. O king of kings, it is through Maheswara of celestial vision that Vasudeva has obtained the attribute of universal agreeableness,--an agreeableness that is much greater than what is possessed by all articles included under the name of wealth. 1 For a full thousand years this Madhava underwent the austerest penances and at last succeeded in gratifying the illustrious and boon giving Siva, that Master of all the mobile and the immobile universe. In every new Yuga has Krishna (by such penances) gratified Mahadeva. In every Yuga has Mahadeva been gratified with the great devotion of the high-souled Krishna. How great is the puissance of the high-souled Mahadeva,--that original cause of the universe,--has been seen with his own eyes by Hari who himself transcends all deterioration, on the occasion of his penances in the retreat of Vadari undergone for obtaining a son. 2 I do not, O Bharata, behold any one that is superior to Mahadeva. To expound the names of that god of gods fully and without creating the desire of hearing more only Krishna is competent. This mighty-armed one of Yadu's race is alone competent to tell the attributes of the illustrious Siva. Verily, O king, only he is able to discourse on the puissance, in its entirety of the Supreme deity?' ------- -------------------

 

?"In the Varäha Puräna it is also said,?näräyanah paro devas?tasmäj jätas caturmukhah?tasmäd rudro 'bhavad devah?sa ca sarva-jnanäm gatah??Translation : "Näräyana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahmä was born, from whom Siva was born."??The original verse in sanskrit mentions Rudra and you say Shiva! Again there is a technical difference, but I will not go into that at this time. Since you are not essentially a Shiva bhakta, that difference may be unimportant to you. Anyway, it is, nevertheless an expansion of Lord Sadashiva!

?So, in this way, I am giving proofs from outside Prabhupäda's books that Lord Siva is not the supreme. Now, can you find one verse which states that Lord Siva is the supreme absolute truth ?????

I have already stated one example from the Mahabharata stating just that.

Will be convinced if Lord Krsna himself said that??? You wouldn't want to contradict Lord Sri Krsna himself!!! Here it is:

"Vasudeva said, 'The very deities with Indra, and the Lord Brahma numbering among them, and the great Rishis also, are incompetent to understand the course of Mahadeva's acts truly and in all their details. Even He is the end which all righteous people attain. The very Adityas who are endued with subtile sight, are unable to behold his abode. How then can one that is merely a man succeed in comprehending Him? I shall, therefore, truly recite to you some of the attributes of that illustrious slayer of Asuras, who is regarded as the Lord of all sacrifices and vows."

 

Here Krsna clearly states to Yudhishthira that Lord Mahadev SadaShiva is the "Lord of all sacrifices and vows." Wouldn't you accept Lord Krsna's words??

Great Rishi Upmanyu tell Krsna "Narada also, in days of yore, adored the great Bhava (SadaShiva) with devotion of heart. Gratified with him, Mahadeva, that preceptor of the celestial preceptor, said these words.--No one shall be thy equal in energy and penances. Thou shalt always attend upon me with thy songs and instrumental music."

The mother of Great Rishi Upmanyu who initiated Krsna tells him: 'Bhava (Shiva) assumes the forms of Brahma and Vishnu and the chief of the celestials of the Rudras, the Adityas, and the Aswins; and of those deities that are called Viswadevas.'

Again Upmanyu tells Krsna: O Krishna, I answered the chief of the celestials in these words.--I do not desire any boon at thy hands, or from the hands of any other deity. O amiable deity, I tell thee truly, that it is Mahadeva only from whom I have boons to ask. True, true it is, O Sakra, true are these words that I say unto thee. No other words are at all agreeable to me save those which relate to Maheswara. At the command of Pashupati, that Lord of all creatures, I am ready to become a worm or a tree with many branches. If not obtained through the grace represented by Mahadeva's boons, the very sovereignty of the three worlds would not be acceptable to me. Let me be born among the very Chandalas but let me still be devoted to the feet of Hara. Without, again, being devoted to that Lord of all creatures, I would not like to have birth in the palace of Indra himself. If a person be wanting in devotion to that Lord of the universe,--that Master of the deities and the Asuras,--his misery will not end even if from want of food he has to subsist upon only air and water. 1 What is the need of other discourses that are even fraught with other kinds of morality and righteousness, unto those persons who do not like to live even a moment without thinking of feet of Mahadeva? When the unrighteous or sinful Kali Yuga comes, one should never pass a moment without devoting his heart upon Mahadeva. One that has drunk the Amrita constituted by the devotion to Hara, one becomes freed from the fear of the world. One that has not obtained the grace of Mahadeva can never succeed to devote oneself to Mahadeva for a single day or for half a day or for a Muhurta or for a Kshana or for a Lava (very small unit of time). At the command of Mahadeva I shall cheerfully become a worm or an insect, but I have no relish for even the sovereignty of the three worlds, if bestowed by thee, O Sakra. At the word of Hara I would become even a dog. In fact, that would accord with my highest wish. If not given by Maheswara, I would not have the sovereignty of the very deities. I do not wish to have this dominion of the Heavens. I do not wish to have the sovereignty of the celestials. I do not wish to have the region of Brahma. Indeed, I do not wish to have that cessation of individual existence which is called Emancipation and which involves a complete identification with Brahma. But I want to become the slave of Hara. As long as that Lord of all creatures, the illustrious Mahesa, with crown on his head and body possessed of the pure white complexion of the lunar disc, does not become gratified with me, so long shall I cheerfully bear all those afflictions, due to a hundred repetitions of decrepitude, death and birth, that befall to the lot of embodied beings. What person in the universe can obtain tranquillity, without gratifying Rudra that is freed from decripitude and death, that is endued with the effulgence of the Sun, the Moon, or the fire, that is the root or original cause of everything real and unreal in the three worlds, and that exists as one and indivisible entity? If in consequence of my faults, rebirths be mine, I shall, in those new births, devote myself solely to Bhava.'"

And then he says: Who else than that Supreme Lord could be creator of Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Space, Mind, and that which is called Mahat? Tell me, O Sakra, who else than Siva could create Mind, Understanding, Consciousness or Ego, the Tanmatras, and the senses? Who is there higher than Siva? 4 The wise say that the Grandsire Brahma is the creator of this universe. Brahma, however, acquired his high puissance and prosperity by adoring and gratifying Mahadeva, that God of gods. That high puissance (consisting of all the three attributes of creation, protection, and destruction), which dwells in that illustrious Being who is endowed with the quality of being one, who created Brahma, Vishnu, and Rudra, was derived from Mahadeva. Tell me who is there that is superior to the Supreme Lord? 5 Who else than that God of gods is competent to unite the sons of Diti with lordship and puissance, judging by the sovereignty and the power of oppressing conferred upon the foremost of the Daityas and Danavas? 6 The different points of the horizon, Time, the Sun, all fiery entities, planets, wind, water, and the stars and constellations,--these, know thou, are from Mahadeva. Tell us who is higher than the Supreme Lord? Who else is there, except Mahadeva, in the matter of the creation of Sacrifice and the destruction of Tripura? Who else except Mahadeva, the grinder of the foes,

Krsna describing his sadhna of Lord SadaShiva to Yudhishthira and Bhishma Pitamaha says 'I then said unto him (Upmanyu), O regenerate one, through thy grace, O great ascetic. I shall behold the lord of the deities, that grinder of multitudes of Diti's sons. Eight days, O Bharata, passed there like an hour, all of us being thus occupied with talk on Mahadeva. On the eighth day, I underwent the Diksha (initiation) according to due rites, at the hands of that Brahmana and received the staff from his hands. I underwent the prescribed shave. I took up a quantity of Kusa blades in my hand. I wore rags for my vestments. I rubbed my person with ghee. I encircled a cord of Munja grass round my loins. For one month I lived on fruits. The second month I subsisted upon water. The third, the fourth and the fifth months I passed, living upon air alone. I stood all the while, supporting myself upon one foot and with my arms also raised upwards, and foregoing sleep all the while."

Upon Lord Shiva appearing after this period, Krsna describes this appearance as

'The appearance seemed to be like that of the Sun in the midst of racking clouds with the Moon by his side. The hair on my body, O son of Kunti, stood on its end, and my eyes expanded with wonder upon beholding Hara, the refuge of all the deities and the dispeller of all their griefs. Mahadeva was adorned with a diadem on his head. He was armed with his Sula. He was clad in a tiger-skin, had matted locks on his head, and bore the staff (of the Sanyasin) in one of his hands. He was armed, besides with his Pinaka and the thunderbolt. His teeth was sharp-pointed. He was decked with an excellent bracelet for the upper arm. His sacred thread was constituted by a snake. He wore an excellent garland of diversified colours on his bosom, that hung down to his toes. Verily, I beheld him like the exceedingly bright moon of an autumnal evening. Surrounded by diverse clans of spirits and ghosts, he looked like the autumnal Sun difficult of being gazed at for its dazzling brightness. Eleven hundred Rudras stood around that Deity of restrained soul and white deeds, then seated upon his bull. All of them were employed in hymning his praises. The Adityas, the Vasus, the Sadhyas, the Viswedevas, and the twin Aswins praised that Lord of the universe by uttering the hymns occurring in the scriptures. The puissant Indra and his brother Upendra, the two sons of Aditi, and the Grandsire Brahma, all uttered, in the presence of Bhava, the Rathantara Saman. Innumerable masters of Yoga, all the regenerate Rishis with their children, all the celestial Rishis, the goddess Earth, the Sky (between Earth and Heaven), the Constellations, the Planets, the Months, the Fortnights, the Seasons, Night, the Years, the Kshanas, the Muhurtas, the Nimeshas, the Yugas one after another, all the celestial Sciences and branches of knowledge, and all beings conversant with Truth, were seen bowing down unto that Supreme Preceptor, that great Father, that giver (or origin) of Yoga. Sanatkumara, the Vedas, the Histories, Marichi, Angiras, Atri, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu, the seven Manus, Soma, the Atharvans, and Vrihaspati, Bhrigu, Daksha, Kasyapa, Vasishtha, Kasya, the Schandas, Diksha, the Sacrifices, Dakshina, the Sacrificial Fires, the Havis (clarified butter) poured in sacrifices, and all the requisites of the sacrifices, were beheld by me, O Yudhishthira, standing there in their embodied forms. All the guardians of the worlds, all the Rivers, all the snakes, the mountains, the celestial Mothers, all the spouses and daughters of the celestials, thousands upon thousands and millions of ascetics, were seen to bow down to that puissant Lord who is the soul of tranquillity. The Mountains, the Oceans, and the Points of the compass also did the same, the Gandharvas and the Apsaras highly skilled in music, in celestial strains, sang and hymned the praises of Bhava who is full of wonder. The Vidyadharas, the Danavas, the Guhyakas, the Rakshasas, and all created beings, mobile and immobile, adorned, in thought, word and deed, that puissant Lord. Before me, that Lord of all the gods viz., Sarva, appeared seated in all his glory. Seeing that Isana had showed himself to me by being seated in glory before my eyes, the whole universe, with the Grandsire and Sakra, looked at me. I, however, had not the power to look at Mahadeva. The great Deity then addressed me saying, 'Behold, O Krishna, and speak to me. Thou hast adorned me hundreds and thousands of times. There is no one in the three worlds that is dearer to me than thou.' After I had bowed unto him, his spouse, viz., the goddess Uma, became gratified with me. I then addressed in these words the great God whose praises are hymned by all the deities with the Grandsire Brahma at their head.'

"The blessed Vishnu said, 'I saluted Mahadeva, saying,--Salutations to thee, O thou that art the eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that thou art Penance, thou art Sattwa, thou art Rajas, thou art Tamas, and thou art Truth. Thou art Brahman, thou art Rudra, thou art Varuna, thou art Agni, thou art Manu, thou art Bhava, thou art Dhatri, thou art Tashtri, thou art Vidhatri, thou art the puissant Master of all things, and thou art everywhere. All beings, mobile and immobile, have sprung from thee. This triple world with all its mobile and immobile entities, has been created by thee. The Rishis say that thou art superior to the senses, the mind, the vital breaths, the seven sacrificial fires, all others that have their refuge in the all-pervading Soul, and all the deities that are adored and worthy of adoration. Thou, O illustrious one, art the Vedas, the Sacrifices, Soma, Dakshina, Pavaka, Havi, and all other requisites of sacrifice. The merit obtained by sacrifices, gifts made to others, the study of the Vedas, vows, regulations in respect of restraint, Modesty, Fame, Prosperity, Splendour, Contentment, and Success, all exist for leading to thee. Desire, Wrath, Fear, Cupidity, Pride, Stupefaction, and Malice, Pains and Diseases, are, O illustrious one, thy children. Thou art all acts that creatures do, thou art the joy and sorrow that flow from those acts, thou art the absence of joy and sorrow, thou art that Ignorance which is the indestructible seed of Desire, thou art the high origin of Mind, thou art Puissance, and thou art Eternity. Thou art the Unmanifest, thou art Pavana, thou art inconceivable, thou art the thousand-rayed Sun, thou art the effulgent Chit, thou art the first of all the topics, and thou art the refuge of life. The use of words like Mahat, Soul, Understanding, Brahman, Universe, Sambhu, and Self-born and other words occurring in succession (in the Vedas), show that thy nature has been judged (by persons conversant with the Vedas) as identical with Mahat and Soul. Verily, regarding thee as all this, the learned Brahmanas win over that ignorance which lies at the root of the world. Thou residest in the heart of all creatures, and thou art adored by the Rishis as Kshetrajna. Thy arms and feet extend to every place, and thy eyes, head, and face are everywhere. Thou hearest everywhere in the universe, and thou stayest, pervading all things. Of all acts that are performed in the Nimeshas and other divisions of time that spring in consequence of the puissance of the Sun, thou art the fruit. Thou art the original effulgence (of the supreme Chit). Thou art Purusha, and thou residest in the hearts of all things. Thou art the various Yogic attributes of success, viz., Subtility and Grossness and Fruition and Supremacy and Effulgence and Immutability. Understanding and intelligence and all the worlds rest upon thee. They that are devoted to meditation, that are always engaged in Yoga, that are devoted to or firm in Truth and that have subjugated their passions, seek thee and rest on thee. They that know thee for one that is Immutable, or one that resides in all hearts, or one that is endued with supreme puissance, or one that is the ancient Purusha, or one that is pure Knowledge, or one that is the effulgent Chit, or one that is the highest refuge of all persons endued with intelligence, are certainly persons of great intelligence. Verily, such persons stay, transcending intelligence. By understanding the seven subtile entities (viz., Mahat, Ego, and five subtile primal elements called Tanmatras), by comprehending thy six attributes (of Omniscience, Contentment of Fullness, Knowledge without beginning, Independence, Puissance that is not at fault at any time and that is infinite), and being conversant with Yoga that is freed from every false notion, the man of knowledge succeeds in entering into thy great self.--After I had said these words, O Partha, unto Bhava, that dispeller of grief and pain, the universe, both mobile and immobile, sent up a leonine shout (expressive of their approval of the correctness of my words). The innumerable Brahmanas there present, the deities and the Asuras, the Nagas, the Pisachas, the Pitris, the birds, diverse Rakshasas, diverse classes of ghosts and spirits, and all the great Rishis, then bowed down unto that great Deity. There then fell upon my head showers of celestial flowers possessed of great fragrance, and delicious winds blew on the spot. The puissant Sankara then, devoted to the good of the universe, looked at the goddess Uma and the lord of the celestials and myself also, and thus spoke unto me,--We know, O Krishna, that thou, O slayer of foes, art filled with the greatest devotion towards us. Do what is for thy good. My love and affection for thee is very great. Do thou ask for eight boons. I shall verily give them unto thee, O Krishna, O best of all persons, tell me what they are, O chief of the Yadavas. Name what thou wishest. However difficult of attainment they be, thou shalt have them still.'"

Do You need to know more? There is much more than that! ?

Does Lord Siva say in any upanishad, purana or veda that he is the supreme absolute truth ?????

Absolutely!! Go and study Padma Purana!! But again Srila Prabhupada did not translate Padma Purana, but took only some parts of it, that were not focusing on Shiva. The Shiva Gita comes in Padma Purana. After receiving the special Virga Diksha (initiation) from Agastya rishi Lord Rama (krsna in his earlier incarnation) starts making intensive ascetic practices to please Lord Sadashiva. When Lord Shiva appears, the discourse between them is the Shiva Gita!! And Lord Shiva clearly tells Rama that he is the Supreme Lord! And Lord Rama acknowledges it to be so! Why would Lord Sri Srila Prabhupada want to translate that?? We don't need that? That will be diversion! Also he said you only need to read his books only and that they have everything that you need, so sadly you may decide not to read that!! I metioned this earlier too, but again you are asking this question if Lord Shiva ever said anything about his being the Lord!!

?"We are not interested in bashing Lord Siva. Anyone who bashes Lord Siva (the topmost vaishnava) is not fit to worship Lord Krsna. But, it is to be clearly understood that, Lord Siva is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Only Lord Sri Krsna, the son of Nanda Maharaja, the Lotus eyed personality who awarded his childhood pastimes to Yashoda, that Krsna, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and nobody else."?

That is wonderful. Everything you say and preach is wonderful!! Accept when you start that God positioning tactic!! Then you act like a non Vaishnava. But it is understood and is natural to praise and consider your form of the Lord as Great. There is nothing wrong in it. Goswami Tulasidas also didn't accept Lord Ksrsna's form when he appeared before him as he was so attached to Lord Ramachandra's form! So again Krsna appeared before him as Rama! This is fine. But when you come bent upon jumping up and down claiming that Shiva is not a Supreme personality of Godhead and that he is inferior, then dear brother, I can't accept that also!

?"Stop blaspheming Vaisnavas by calling them mudhas. We do study vedic scriptures, but only after studying Prabhupäda's books properly (because they are the foundation of our spiritual life). "

Anybody who is in the mode of ignorance is a mudha!! It is not about blaspheming Vaishnavas. It is about the mudhas claiming to be Vaishnavas!

How many of you are in fact Vaishnavas is a different question altogether!?

There is no doubt that one can be a completely devoted bhakta of Lord Sadashiva or Lord Vishnu and be liberated!! This is the Truth and the point I want to get across, rather than the ONLY theory. It is like a few catholics who say that Jesus is the ONLY way. Yes he is, but then there are other ways to.

It depends on your understanding!!

 

OM NAMAH SHIVAYA!!

JAI SRI KRSNA!

?

[harshad]

Again, not to prove or disprove anything, but Mr Guest, first of all give yourself an identity before speaking. Please register here and give yourself a username. Dont remain impersonal, become personal.

 

You are comparing srila prabhupada to vivekananda and others whereas srila prabhupada himself said that vivekananda was a rascal and a fool.

 

If you believe that vivekananda has done something great, go follow him and eat meat and worship kali.

 

There is always difference, there is always personalism above impersonalism.

 

You say about the brahma samhita verse :

What this verse explains is clear from what is says. But what you add on to it is different. And that's your dilution of Vedic knowledge! Though you trumpet it to be purest Vedic to gather the crowd. My sanskrit is fairly good and there is no mention of Lord Shiva's name here. But what your commentary adds if "Like Shiva" is nto even present in this sloka. Certainly you can tell the Americans and the Russians that! And some of the so called Hindus who do not read their own scriptures!! LOL! What a manipulation trip!?

 

The explanation which i gave was given by prabhupada not me...

 

You say :You do not even read the vedas and Puranas! Condemning everything else except Bhagwatam and Gita as tamasic or inferior!! lol! Why don't you also read Devi Bhagwatam then? Nand Maharaj and Lord Krsna's wives and his Aunty Queen Kunti devi also were great Shiva bhaktas. The Vedic times are full of Shiva devotion and sadhnas. Lord Ramachandra's forefathers were traditionally Sun and Shiva worshipers. So was Lord Ramachandra!! He wasn't God positioning!! WHy do you?? That is the state of Kaliyuga!! And that's why I call people like that Mudhas!! Who themselves do not have a level, but want to level one form of God against the other!! ??"

 

Yes I am mudha, now what can you do???? I will position every demigod as subordinate to krsna. Come and kill me if you can. Curse me so that I may go to hell... if that is what pacifies you...

 

You say :Why the hell in the first place do you get into this God positioning. Why do you wanna prove it?? What's there to prove?? You are anyway so far from Shiva or Krsna !! So what's the big deal about it?

 

And I reply : I am not far from krsna because I am connected to Him through parampara. God positioning is an important part of acintya bhedabheda tattva.

 

 

You Say : You do not even read the vedas and Puranas! Condemning everything else except Bhagwatam and Gita as tamasic or inferior!! lol! Why don't you also read Devi Bhagwatam then? Nand Maharaj and Lord Krsna's wives and his Aunty Queen Kunti devi also were great Shiva bhaktas. The Vedic times are full of Shiva devotion and sadhnas. Lord Ramachandra's forefathers were traditionally Sun and Shiva worshipers.

 

And I reply : Can you give some sanskrit slokas supporting your statement from the scriptures ??? IF yes, please do that. Prabhupada had knowledge of all scriptures and he said Krsna is supreme, so we accept that. Do you have some other opinion ???

 

 

You say : Uh... excuse me? Krsna created Shiva? Was that after he killed Kamsa or before that?? Krsna appeared after the Satya Yuga! And Lord Rama was already praying to Lord Shiva then!! oh... you mean... Vishnu was the creator of Brahma! What the Vedas say.... is a bit different than what you really translate and understand. You just talked about Sankarshana appearing from the Lord. If you read the Shiva MahaPurana, it clearly states Lord Shiva to be present much before that and as he manifests his phallic form made of a great fire column, even Vishnu and Brahma are not able to know its origin or end. He is the Adi-deva, means one who has no beginning and no end! He is the Maheswara - Iswara is God and Maheswara is the Supreme or the greatest God. He is the Mahadeva - the God of all Gods!!

 

And I reply : What problem do you have with the vaishnavas ??? Why are you angry if we say that Siva < Krsna ??? You interpret every verse in your own way, and consider siva to be supreme.

 

You say about the sarva dharman parityajya verse : Yes So true!! You should surrender yourself to Lord Sri Krsna!! But he does not say that do not surrender to Lord Shiva. He asks Arjuna to surrender to him.

 

And I say : What do the words "mam ekam" in that sloka mean ????? They mean only to Krishna. and not to anyone else. So that is Bhagavad gita as it is. It cannot be understood by those who do not care for distinction.

 

In the acintya bhedabheda tattva, there is always distinction. And Lord Siva is given a position below Lord Krsna. He is Lord Krsna's greatest devotee.

 

PLEASE GIVE SOME SASTRA PRAMAN NEXT TIME

 

And if you want sastra praman, Read This

 

Request to Admin of Website : Please ban aggressive blasphemers...

[Guest guest]

srila prabhupada himself said that vivekananda was a rascal and a fool.****

 

And in your previous post, you called him the most merciful person. EVER! If SP were here, he'd have a good laugh.

[harshad]

Yes, he was merciful because he called vivekananda and his guru a fool and a rascal because both of them were meat eaters. Thus he exposed them and was merciful to us.

 

Prabhupäda said : Vivekananda has influence here in higher class, among the educated class. They talk about Vivekananda and this and that, nonsense. In your country, fortunately, that opposition was not there. There was no influence of Vivekananda class men. Here amongst the educated class there is influence of all these rascals, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, and... That is one defect. But in the mass there is no influence. In the class, educated class. Because educated class means wine, women, meat, and Vivekananda allows this. That is the point. Vivekananda has no distinction of eating. "Eat any... All Brahman, all Näräyana. You are Näräyana. Goat is Näräyana. So Näräyana is going in the belly of Näräyana. What is the wrong? One Näräyana is going, being absorbed by another Näräyana." But he is not agreeable to be eaten by a tiger, another tiger Näräyana. (Room Conversation Jan 17, 1971)

[Guest guest]

Om Namah Shivaya!! Dear Vaishnava brother!!

You said two things - 1. Shastra Praman and 2. complained that I translated verses in another way.

Now, I gave enough Shastra praman to start with. Probably you did not read my message carefully enough! Please Go throughit again! You failed to answer about the part of Mahabharata that I quoted Lord Sri Krsna HIMSELF!! You have nothing to say to it! And I consider Lord Krsna's quotes above any Prabhupada! Whether it is achintya Bheda-bhed Philosophy or not! It is becoming a philosophy of "bhed-bhava" and as you truly stated you have to do this God positioning agenda. It is in the seeds! What can I do? Hence, you will never come to terms with anyone else! This is understood too!

Secondly, Prabhupada had to translate the literature already available to be in line with his own philosophy, that overlooks other aspects and elements of Vedic spiritual practices and emphasizes only his way of thinking. He had a very strong desire to establish his way of thinking above all other ways and it is the main agenda to this day of his followers too. Though in principle, the underlying principles of Vaishnava philosophy is definitely Love, Devotion, Compassion!! And not bheda-bhava or comparing and fighting over the differences!! This is not intelligence!! Understand me correctly! Here I'm not referring to the Gaudiya Chaitanya Sampradaya that it is not intelligent! But What I mean to say is that this strong accent on putting down everybody else and praising only yourself leads to wars! This is the root cause of all wars based on world religions and sects!! If the Jews and the Muslims forgot for a while that they are Jews and Muslims, they would come together and eat on the same table. But no! This attachment to self and your own clan etc. is symbolic of ego. Ego is influenced by Maya. And unless you are a JivanMukta realized soul, you are under Maya! So what's the use of calling people mayawadi anyway? Just to call people names? What's in a name? If Prabhupada was named Vishnupada, he would have been the same person anyway. Two of Lord Shiva's names is Hara and Krishna too. You asked my name but I said I'm just a particle of dust in the feet of Lord Sadashiva! And still, if you want to know, my name is Nikhileshwarananda Das. Nikhileshwarananda is Shiva. Nikhileshwarananda is also Paramhansa Swami Nikhileshwaradanda from Siddhashram. This is the same Siddhashrama where the great sage Vishwamitra took Rama to perform his tapasya. Also, Vishnu performed his tapas as the vaman avatara here for a thousand years after killing King Bali. This place is in the Himalayas and is reachable to only highly accomplished yogis. Even today, Yogis having hundreds of years of age are doing sadhnas here. So much for introduction!

Dear Vaishnava brother, Vaishnavism is not based on this bhed-bhava philosophy alone!! It does that distinction to understand the God-devotee relationship, but not to mug down others and show how great you are. It does contain other schools of thougts as AUTHENTIC as yours! The Ramananda sampradaya for example is also a pure vaishnava sampradaya. But if you had to base the authenticity of a school of thought on the basis of its marketing strategy, then we will be following Coke and Pepsi. Beacuse if you have one big ISKCON temple in Delhi, then you have thousands and thousands of Pepsi outlets there and in every city of the world. It is good that some of the current Gurus are well educated and experienced working in one of these companies and know the rules of the game well. And I'm glad that they are using them to propagate the God business. It is certainely better than propagating Pepsi and Coke! But why this friction?? Did we ever see Lord Krsna in his life time creating differences between a Shiva bhakta and a sadhaka of say Sun God?

You have nothing to say on the quotes I stated, nor can any Guru say anything on that. Why do you need to see the sanskrit quotes? To impress others? Go and find them!!

Also, Bhagwad Gita "AS IT IS" is a very loudly trumpeted term! Almost like an advertisement banner. How can someone claim to completely understand the Bhagwad Gita as it is??? To understand it mere reading is not enough! Experience generated from practice, finding the same truth written - is what required. To understand it 'as it is' one has to be perfect in yoga - all branches of yoga and have a perception through it. One has to know well through practical knowledge, of all branches of spiritual practices authoritatively. One has to know the advaita as well as the dvaita and know where they meet. Guru is not the one who repeats what is written in the shastras quoting everything as it is . This is the work of pundits. And pundits have been reading out Bhagwadgita to masses since the last 2000 years. It is not story telling!! Guru is the one who has read the scriptures, worked and realized this knowledge practically in his own life and then stands with the "realized" result of this wisdom!! That is a Guru! And this practical wisdom is not a belief!! You confuse belief with practical wisdom. And are not able to see the difference between the two. See this 'Bheda'!

For example, Krsna says that I am in every living being. Now you believe that completely. This is belief! Seeing or realizing brings us closer to 'science'. When we say the 'science' of Krisna consciousness, we don't have to use this word only to attract western followers! We are trying to realize this in our lives! And so you believe that He is in every living - non living being, in every particle. After the belief, comes the practice and realization. People are stuck in a belief without realization. Which is still good enough rather than not believing at all. So you are fortunate anyway. But if you recognized the soul within, if you experienced the anahat naad, through opening of the anahat chakra, the agya chakra, then you could even see this too!! And this is called realization! This seeing is not a mere physical seeing as you understand it through your external perception. It is not a physical sensory perception available through the five sense organs. Most people in Kaliyuga are not able to rise above the five sense organs not to talk about yoga and developing and opening extra sensory perception. Hence this system of binding the external organs towards the Lord through Shravan, Kirtan, manan etc. But when we go deeper this manan becomes even deeper. and clearer. Why do you call the yogis as materialists then? And I gave an example of this in my previous post, when Sri Krsna through the yogic method of 'shaktipaat' opens up the Agya chakra of Arjuna, he is immediately able to realize the real form of the Lord which he now 'sees' not through his external eyes. This is realization! A Guru is a Realized soul and not just a 'paathi' or academician, or a lecturer. Srila Prabhupada is an Acharya! And according to the Yoga philosophy, an Acharya can be a Guru and he can be simply an acharya!

So if Arjuna with so many supernatural yogic powers wasn't able to completely comprehend it even after Vasudeva Krishna Himself giving him teh knowledge, without this opening of the divine vision, then someone in Kaliyuga comes and says that what I said is as it is - becomes a bit difficult to believe!! And in another book the same person says that manipur and swadhishthaan chakra is intestines!! What can I say? Srila Prabhupada's philosophy on Yoga is true as far as the devotional relationship to the Lord is concerned. As far as understanding the meaning of the word 'Yog'. The bhakti aspect is perfect! But it is when He comes to addressing the other Yogic principles, all that goes down the drain. HE was a great acharya and worthy of every praise in my eyes and in the eyes of thousands. But this condemning and calling everyone else a fool and rascal is not a very Vaishnava quality though!! He at least had some realization, but when the followers, without any realization, whatsoever lash out at others spitting out words like - rascals and fools, I only feel sorry for them!

Oh.. and what's wrong in worshipping Goddess Kali?? Kali is the primordial adi-shakti in the Universe! If you go into tantra shastra, the beej mantra of Kali and Krsna is the same. How could someone, just ignored all the good qualities of Vivekananda and the great RamaKrhisna Paramhansa and dismiss them as mere fools and rascals?? Where has the Vaishnava Love and Compassion disappeared? Kaliyuga indeed!

Astu!

Jai bhole nath!

P.S. As far as banning the aggressors is concerned, then if you can't handle a spiritual argument, why be so pissed?? I can leave the discussion myself!! To sum it all, I didn't come her with aggression nor to put someone down! Also, I didn't blasphemy anyone either. I respect the Krsna bhakti movement. And stop using that blasphemy thing like Ayutulla Khomeini! LOL! But I think the administrators may just as well wrongly ban me from this site. So it will be just a one sided story!! I do not intend to disrespect any vaishnava! Om namah Bhagwate Vasudevaya!

 

[Guest guest]

was a meat-eater. What have you gotta say about that?

[harshad]

Hmm... lets review your charges.

 

1) Now, I gave enough Shastra praman to start with. Probably you did not read my message carefully enough! Please Go throughit again! You failed to answer about the part of Mahabharata that I quoted Lord Sri Krsna HIMSELF!!

 

My answer : I can throw the entire Bhagavatam at you and you can throw the entire Shiv Mahapuran at me. You are saying that I am biased and I am saying that you are biased. Therefore it is necessary that some incident other than that of Bhagavatam and Shiv Mahapurana must be the litmus test for the superiority. The litmus test of superiority of Vishnu over Siva was done by Bhrigu Muni who went and kicked in the chest of Vishnu and Vishnu did not get angry. This fact is known to everyone in Vedic culture. Therefore, this test by Bhrigu muni was establised as the Litmus test of Superiority of Vishnu over Shiva (although they may both seem to be Supreme.) More over Lord Siva is addressed as "Mahadeva" and Maha means big and deva means demigod. And Lord Krsna is addressed as Sri Bhagavan or Parameshvara throughout the vedic texts, and Param means supreme. If these simple facts are not understood, what can I do ???

 

2) Secondly, Prabhupada had to translate the literature already available to be in line with his own philosophy, that overlooks other aspects and elements of Vedic spiritual practices and emphasizes only his way of thinking. He had a very strong desire to establish his way of thinking above all other ways and it is the main agenda to this day of his followers too. Though in principle, the underlying principles of Vaishnava philosophy is definitely Love, Devotion, Compassion!! And not bheda-bhava or comparing and fighting over the differences!! This is not intelligence!! Understand me correctly! Here I'm not referring to the Gaudiya Chaitanya Sampradaya that it is not intelligent! But What I mean to say is that this strong accent on putting down everybody else and praising only yourself leads to wars! This is the root cause of all wars based on world religions and sects!!

 

My Answer : No, Prabhupadas thinking is non-different from the thinking of all other acaryas in Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya. We do not compromise or water down our teachings to be in line or in harmony with other religions/sects/philosophies. "I am Okay You are Okay" this is not our philosophy. Prabhupada once heard this sentence "I am okay you are okay" from a disciple and he replied back "This is not our philosophy. Our philosophy is I am OK You are NOT OK".... We are not putting down everything else, we just say that all other paths will not lead to love of Krishna. So, if you consider love of Krishna as highest, then follow our path, otherwise you can decide what is highest for you. As far as we are concerned, there is not even a slight chance of change or adjustment of our philosophy. In prabhupadas own words "My Guru Maharaja never compromised, I never compromised , and my disciples should never compromise." ... So that is our philosophy "NO COMPROMISE"... You have confused acintya bhedäbheda tattva with the mundane bheda-bhava of modern world. Therefore I am again saying that you do not know gaudiya philosophy, neither do you understand prabhupadas mood.

 

3) This attachment to self and your own clan etc. is symbolic of ego. Ego is influenced by Maya. And unless you are a JivanMukta realized soul, you are under Maya! So what's the use of calling people mayawadi anyway? Just to call people names? What's in a name?

 

My Answer : Mayavadi does not mean "one who is under maya". Mayavadi means one who is a supporter of Sankaracarya or one who propogates the theory that "EVERYTHING IS ONE". We do not believe in such theories. That is why our parampara has come from madhvacarya who firmly believed and propogated dvaitavada (dualism) as opposed to Sankaracarya who preached Advaitavada (monism).

 

4) Dear Vaishnava brother, Vaishnavism is not based on this bhed-bhava philosophy alone!! It does that distinction to understand the God-devotee relationship, but not to mug down others and show how great you are. It does contain other schools of thougts as AUTHENTIC as yours! The Ramananda sampradaya for example is also a pure vaishnava sampradaya. But if you had to base the authenticity of a school of thought on the basis of its marketing strategy, then we will be following Coke and Pepsi. Beacuse if you have one big ISKCON temple in Delhi, then you have thousands and thousands of Pepsi outlets there and in every city of the world. It is good that some of the current Gurus are well educated and experienced working in one of these companies and know the rules of the game well. And I'm glad that they are using them to propagate the God business. It is certainely better than propagating Pepsi and Coke! But why this friction?? Did we ever see Lord Krsna in his life time creating differences between a Shiva bhakta and a sadhaka of say Sun God?

 

My Answer : Other Vaishnava Sampradaya are as authentic as our sampradaya. But that does not mean that we will mix all philosophies and propound everything as one. Will all the shiv bhaktas, ramanandis, etc agree to worship Caitanya Mahaprabhu as yuga avatara ???? If they cannot do that, why think of spiritual oneness and merger ???

 

5) For example, Krsna says that I am in every living being. Now you believe that completely. This is belief! Seeing or realizing brings us closer to 'science'. When we say the 'science' of Krisna consciousness, we don't have to use this word only to attract western followers! We are trying to realize this in our lives! And so you believe that He is in every living - non living being, in every particle. After the belief, comes the practice and realization. People are stuck in a belief without realization. Which is still good enough rather than not believing at all. So you are fortunate anyway. But if you recognized the soul within, if you experienced the anahat naad, through opening of the anahat chakra, the agya chakra, then you could even see this too!! And this is called realization!

 

My Answer : If you think that you want to see the soul from your vision through yoga process, try it. Prabhupada always said that "The soul can be percieved by the symptom of consciousness". He never encouraged any yoga or meditation, because yoga and meditation was proper in previous ages, where meditation for thousands of years was possible. Nowadays, only one thing is possible - HARI NAAM SANKIRTAN... and that we are doing. We are not only after western followers, but all people. ISKCON is not a foriegner hunting society, it is a place for devotional service. Those who get attracted come , and those who are not attracted they do not come. We try our best, but we do not compromise. If we wanted to have western followers, we would have compromised four regulative principles (which vivekananda has done.) But that is not our philosophy. And still, by the grace of Krsna, we are having a good number of devotees.

 

6) This is realization! A Guru is a Realized soul and not just a 'paathi' or academician, or a lecturer. Srila Prabhupada is an Acharya! And according to the Yoga philosophy, an Acharya can be a Guru and he can be simply an acharya!

 

My Answer : Yes, A guru has realised that he is spirit soul, servant of Krsna. He is not only an academician, but he also preaches krsna consciousness, BUT HE DOES NOT DEMAND KRSNA TO SHOW HIM THE SOUL. HE DOES NOT MAKE UNNECESSARY DEMANDS TO KRSNA. KRSNA SHOW ME THE SOUL, KRSNA SHOW YOURSELF, these are all unnecessary demands. When krsna wants , He will show himself. He had shown Himself to prabhupada when prabhupada was on Jaladuta ship to America and survived 2 heart attacks. Then Krsna said "I will protect you"....

 

7) What can I say? Srila Prabhupada's philosophy on Yoga is true as far as the devotional relationship to the Lord is concerned. As far as understanding the meaning of the word 'Yog'. The bhakti aspect is perfect! But it is when He comes to addressing the other Yogic principles, all that goes down the drain. HE was a great acharya and worthy of every praise in my eyes and in the eyes of thousands. But this condemning and calling everyone else a fool and rascal is not a very Vaishnava quality though!! He at least had some realization, but when the followers, without any realization, whatsoever lash out at others spitting out words like - rascals and fools, I only feel sorry for them!

 

My answer : Vaishnava does not mean he will remain mute . Vaishnava means softer than a rose and harder than a thunderbolt. Just like ramanujacarya, just like madhvacarya. If you think that Prabhupada's explanation of other systems of yoga is imperfect, then you should start your own school of yoga where you teach other people what exactly yoga means. If your school is actually bonafide, you will become more popular than ISKCON. We want to save people from being cheated, and if it is required that the cheaters of the society be exposed , we will do it. Vivekananda could not create even one disciple in the west despite his youth. But just see the effect of prabhupada, as soon as he went, the most degraded people became krsna bhaktas... That is krsnas mercy. It is practically seen. "Phalena Paricayate" - The effectiveness of a process can be seen by its results.

 

8) Oh.. and what's wrong in worshipping Goddess Kali?? Kali is the primordial adi-shakti in the Universe! If you go into tantra shastra, the beej mantra of Kali and Krsna is the same. How could someone, just ignored all the good qualities of Vivekananda and the great RamaKrhisna Paramhansa and dismiss them as mere fools and rascals?? Where has the Vaishnava Love and Compassion disappeared? Kaliyuga indeed!

 

My Answer : Yes, go ahead and worship Siva and Kali and all demigods. Become a disciple of all the gurus, and follow everyone's teachings. As far as we are concerned, we simply stick to the three basic books : Bhagavad Gita, Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrita. When Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya met caitanya mahaprabhu, he said : “I had become dull-headed due to reading too many books on logic. Consequently I had become like an iron bar. Nonetheless, You have melted me, and therefore Your influence is very great.”

 

That is our mood. We do not deviate, we do not compromise. What is wrong is wrong and what is right is right. That is our philosophy. If you think that meditating on Shiva and going to the himalayas will give you all perfection, go ahead. But do not disturb the Krsna Bhaktas, who are busy preaching the glories of the Lord throughout the world...

 

Hare Krsna...

[Guest guest]

Om Namah Shivaya!

Again, you failed to say one word about the lengthy quotes of Lord Krsna himself praising Lord Shiva as the controller of the universe in Mahabharata!! Isn't that a litmus test enough? It is. We don't need that Bhrigu example to prove anything when we have Lord Krsna himself saying something like that! I don't even have to touch Bhagwatam or Shiv Mahapuran!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

And since you can't comment anything on that, now you have to get rid of this discussion. Well, That's wonderful! Do not disturb Krsna bhaktas! While the so called Krsna bhaktas go and disturb the hell out of everybody everywhere. You do not compromise, but then do not ask others to compromise to you either! The achintya Bheda-bhed has now been truly turned into mundane worldly Bhed-bhava, that you so brightly are exhibiting here. So any peaceful spiritual discussion, finally leads to displeasure and fight with your sect. A proven fact. We don't really need all those quotes to fight! All we need is love. And if I were to follow you then every other God realized saint in the world, every other form of God, every other bonafide school of philosophy is zero except for ISKCON. What an arrogance!! And you call yourself Vaishnavas!! No compromise!! Why do you except people to compromise to you then? So next time an Iskcon guy comes to me for donations as before, I know where to send him!! lol! It was not a miracle that the land given by the overly jumping Iskconites in Russia was snatched away from them. Krsna thought wow they are abusing my other children in my name!! Do they really deserve this? lol! Sankracharya was a far greater saint than Ganguly babu who only called everybody else a rascal! This is clean-cut politics. The whole system is turning into reading out books and fault finding. Where is the realization? What Bhrigu Muni did was thousands of years ago! What has it got to do with you? We don't believe in what you believe in. So why should we compromisea anyway? I have been a Krsna bhakta, but after seeing so much arrogance in Iskcon, I don't even want to associate with most devotees except a chosen few Gurus and friends! You want more members!! But who wants to compromise with you? To give you money and free service and you give them arrogance? Some vaishnavas!! What is the damn difference who is superior?? You can't reach to either of them!! So what is the damn difference?? But both can free you from worldly bondages? What nasty fighters in the name of sampradayas!! Spreading sampradayik bhed-bhav!

You are so pissed that you didn't even greet another devotee! So you are coming out as yourself now!

Also, if you are seeking Krsna and don't want to see him, then where are you going? As far as understanding someone's "moods" are concerned then believing you, I don't need to give a damn about it! As according to you he taught to give a damn about everybody else. I have been very respectful to Srila Prabhupada, but as your arrogance rises with every message, I find less and less reason to do that and think, hmmm... just another fanatical sect marketing itself under the Vedic label in kaliyuga!

And sadly it is not Haribol anymore but horrible!

 

Haribol!

Shiv kripa hee kevalam!

[harshad]

So do not give any donation and do not believe in krsna as the supreme.. Simple..

 

And dvaitin, before you say something about Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, do your research work properly. It is not possible for you to even enter into an understanding of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur from the external mundane viewpoint. So keep these statements to yourselves. We do not personally attack your spiritual masters and it would be in your best spiritual interest to not attack gaudiya vaishnavas (unless you want to continue your existence in samsara). Bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati Thakur is very dear to Lord Jagannatha, and if you say something against him, it will be on your own risk... Think properly and act...

[Nitaichandra]

Maybe it could be that there is a slight confusion between Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinoda .

Yes , Bhaktivinoda before his conversion to vaishnavism , was a shakta who ate meat .

However , I don´t remember anything similar about Bhaktisiddhanta .

What enters my memory , is a pastime where Bhaktisiddhanta swears not to eat anymore mangoes for the rest of his life , because he made some slight transgression ( don´t remember the details ... ) . So this pastime doesn´t go very well together with a meat-eating Bhaktisiddhanta ( who seems to have been very strict in all his habits ) ....

[harshad]

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur once desired in his childhood that he wanted to eat mangoes. Bhaktivinode Thakur said in a grave voice that "The Mangoes have not been offered to giridhari" .... After that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur vowed never to eat mangoes. A vow which he followed throughout his life.

 

Whenever people would ask Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur about bhaktivinode thakur, he would say "You have not seen the actual Bhaktivinode Thakur". Bhaktivinode thakur was acting as an ordinary personality, but infact his real mood was much more different...

[Guest guest]

Dear Vaishnava brothers,

Om Namah Shivaya!

 

The incident went thus: bhaktisiddhant Saraswati loved mangoes as most of us do. And he felt such a strong desire to eat the delicious fruit, that he wan't careful in asking whether it was offered to Lord Sri Girisdhari. He ate that mango only to be told by Sri Bhaktivinod thakur that why did he eat the fruit when it wasn't offered to the Lord first? BhaktiSiddhant Saraswati felt a very strong guilt feeling as he was had a very strong sense of devotion to the Lord!! And as a punishment to his seemingly childish error, He immediately took the vow,

that he is not going to taste this fruit ever, a fruit that he so loved. This is how he showed his love and devotion to Lord Sri Giridhari!!!

Krsna Bless you!!

 

YS.

A simple Shaiva!!

[Guest guest]

Can anyone of you Shiva followers quiten the BAPS followers who think Swaminarayan is the supreme.

 

Lord Shiva is closest to Lord Krishna, but not anyone else.

[Guest guest]

Respected Vaishnava brother,

Om Namah Shivaya!!

 

I really do not comprehend your request.

Also, according to Shastras Yes Lord Shiva did say directly to Lord Ramachandra and Lord Krsna and earlier to Lord Vishnu and Vamana Deva that HE is very very dear and closest to him!! Lord Shiva did say that Hari is in his heart and he is in Hari's heart always!!! And Lord Shiva said that if a Shaiva devotee condemns Vishnu or a Vaishnava devotee condemns Shiva, then they have to go to Raurav Narak (a worst hellish planet) to face sufferings for the abuse! "He is in my heart and I am in his heart always, this is the secret of secrets!!" - Lord Sadashiva. He mentions this in Shiva Mahapurana and he also mentioned this to Rama and Krsna.

Now that's a reason why we shouldn't condemn anyone just because he is a Shaiva or a Vaishnava!! Both are Lord's devotees. A reason why I can't accept the - I'm good and you are bad or I'm right and you are wrong or we are only right policy as mentioned by dear member Harshad in his post - stating Srila Prabhupada! Narayan is the name of Lord Vishnu too! So, what can I say? Get away from Narayana? I think here being radical creaates the problems. Because then, one wants to condemn others while being boastful about oneself. So though I prefer to seek Lord Shiva's benevolence, it would also be unwise of me to try to prove whoever is superior, just because I am attached to Lord Shiva's form.

I believe, its more real for a sadhak to look after the level of his own individual sadhna rather than arguing on the level of the Lord!!

Even if you reach the Lord through any of his forms, you have chances to be saved. But come to a level to reach him! Then you can reach, Krsna, or Rama or Shiva!!

Like one saint once remarked, "Rama (Vishnu) or Shiva don't have a problem with each other, but its the monkeys of Rama and the ghosts of Shiva who want to fight over them with each other!" Mostly, its the followers who fight not the ones being followed.

 

Best wishes!!

Har har Mahadev!!

[harshad]

You were saying that you do not like the idea of positioning of God. But this is something iskcon devotees have to preach. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has Himself said :

 

ekale isvara krsna, ära saba bhrtya

yäre yaiche näcäya, se taiche kare nritya (CC Adi 5.142)

 

Translation : Lord Krsna alone is the supreme controller, and all others are His servants. They dance as He makes them do so.

 

If you study the Gaudiya Vaishnava literatures properly, you will come to know that the positioning is also done between Krsna and Narayana. Narayana does not have some of the qualities of Krsna. The original, most complete personality of Godhead is Krsna. Krsna has all the sixty four qualities which should be present in the original personality of Godhead.

 

 

Srila Rupa Goswami, the head of all the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, writes in Nectar of devotion :

 

“Krsna has four more [qualities], which are not manifest even in the Näräyana form of Godhead, what to speak of the demigods or living entities. They are as follows:

 

(61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes).

 

(62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead.

 

(63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute.

 

(64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.”

 

So, it is not a question of comparison, but the truths are so clearly evident that, Krsna is the supreme personality of Godhead. About this, we are very firm, and well backed up by scriptures. Lord Ramacandra may have worshipped Lord Siva, but that does not mean that Siva is superior to Lord Ramacandra. When Lord Ramacandra wanted to cross the ocean, He also worshipped the ocean demigod, so does that mean the ocean demigod is greater than Lord Ramacandra ??? Certainly not... The Lord does so in order to set an example.

 

We are not biased towards anyone. If the shastras would have said that Siva is supreme, we would have accepted it. But the truth is that Krsna is the supreme (as revealed in the sastras). It is Krsna's expansion Narayana who is ultimately approached by the demigods when they are in any trouble.

 

When the demon Vrkasura was practising severe austerities, Lord Siva became pleased and granted him a boon. Then Vrkasura used that boon against Siva, and finally Krsna came to the rescue. Similarly, when Brahma granted Hiranyakasipu the boon of almost immortal life, Hiranyakasipu created lots of troubles. Finally, it was Lord Nrsimhadeva who saved the situation.

 

It may have been that your family may be worshipping Lord Siva according to tradition, or maybe you got attracted to Lord Siva. That is alright. But we want to tell everyone including you that, "The actual truth is that Lord Krsna is the supreme.".. If you worship Lord Siva regularly, he will easily grant you the benediction of mukti. But we are not after mukti, we want to have pure love of Krsna. And that cannot be attained by worshipping Lord Siva. That has to be attained by worshipping Lord Krsna.

 

These are simple facts. I do not want to agitate your mind and I do not want to decry Lord Siva (I dare not think of that)... Neither did Prabhupada ever say anything against Lord Siva. He only said that the perfect Saivite is promoted to the next level - Vaishnava.Because mukti without Love of Godhead has no meaning. One cannot remain in Brahmajyoti for eternity. One has to enter the Vaikuntha planets to achieve eternal life. Brahmajyoti is formless and does not have variegatedness. A living entity is looking for variegatedness and that variegatedness is found only beyond the Brahmajyoti (Vaikuntha Planets). Many people may not believe this, but we present the truth as it is.

 

I hope this does not disturb you. But it is my duty to present to everyone, the unadultarated truth. For doing this, we are sometimes called Fanatics, Sectarian etc. but we do not mind that.

 

Detailed explanation of position of Brahma and Siva is as follows :

 

Guna Avatara :

 

Guna means “material qualities,” of which there are three categories: passion, which generates the creation of the material manifestation; goodness, which maintains the material manifestation; and ignorance, which destroys the creation. Brahmä is in charge of creation, Visnu maintenance, and Siva destruction.

Lord Visnu is a direct expansion of Krsna and is therefore in the visnu-tattva category. Brahmä is a post for managing the secondary material creation. The post is most often filled by a highly qualified devotee of Krsna (jiva-tattva), but if no one is available, then Visnu will perform Brahmä’s duties. Siva is also a devotee of Lord Krsna. He possesses more of Krsna's qualities than ordinary souls, but less than Krsna or His expansions and incarnations. Siva is in a category of his own, called siva-tattva.

[Guest guest]

Dear Harshad,

 

Om Namah Shivaya!!

All Glories to Lord Sri Krsna - the one without a second!

 

Yes KRSNA indeed was the most perfect, solah kala sampurna avatara!! No other avatara comes closer to his beauty, form, opulence, love and divinity manifested thus.

 

Talking about eternal life, I just wanted this time table for you to see. Though I realize that this may not be the way you look at it.

Lord SadaShiva who is eternal grants all four types of mukti. He preaches this to Ramachandra. IT IS about bhakti too!! IT is not devoid of any love either and there are other aspects of yoga too which makes it more powerful.

Rama praying (actually requesting) to ocean god and Lord Shiva is not the same thing. Also, Krsna praying to Lord Sadashiva is also not just about setting an example, that none in Gaudiya sampradaya follow, because they follow Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Also, you often change the name Vishnu to Krsna etc. Even upto an extent that you say Rama was an incarnation of Krsna. We never say that. Nobody in India says that except the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. And this lineage was started only 500 years ago. Krsna bhakti has always been a part of indian culture though. What Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said is also true. The Lord sends his top representatives and He Himself comes from time to time to establish righteousness and emphasize a particular aspect of spiritual life. I never talk out of ignorance and I'm well aware of the feelings and literature of Gaudiya Sampradaya with at least 14 years of research starting a time when I started associating with Gopal Krisna Goswami back in Vrndavana. But I am also well researched know sadhna intricacies of the Shaiva and Shakta and Tantra lineages too. If you read the Hindi literature you know about the saints of 'Bhakti Kaal'. Lord Chaitanya also came during this period, So did Mirabai, Goswami Tulsidas, Kabir, and many other great saints. All were great saints and acheived God realization through the devotional nectar of bhakti, love and compassion. That was the accent during this period. It was a difficult period for India that was under the Muslim and British opression. People needed more patience and love. There was a need for Bhakti more than ever. Moreover it was a time when the authentic Vedic knowledge was being misused and losing its potency in the hands of so called professional pundits. These pundits deluded the masses in the name of various technicalities of puja. The bhakti saints gave an easy way out for everyone. But this doesn't mean that all other Vedic practices of mantra sadhna, tantra, kriya, kundalini have failed or are useless!! Its that you do not have the Gurus who are an authority on the subject. They ignore and dismiss it. And give wrong examples. For example I also often hear the "pot smoking Shiva babas" example in Iskcon. Now if was to talk about Iskcon judging just by a few people, then I would say something like - "oh these guys have millions of dollars of child molestation cases and so many things happening inside". But NO! As this is not the Iskcon standard, but a few mistakes committed by some of the people in it. I do not base my judgement on it, but on what the Sampradaya guidelines say. If Krsna and Rama established an example of sadhna then it was not about all dancing and singing!! This is what Chaitanya did! This was not what they did in the Vedic Kaal!! Of course, bhakti was always a very important element present in any sadhna. In order for me to judge something for myself, I have to try it completely upto a level, research it thoroughly, know its essence and then talk over it. Similarly, I would appreciate, someone to learn the Shaiva, Shakt, Yoga tradition well enough and practice it, and only then pass a judgement. Otherwise all talk and no walk is not the best way to know the reality!!

Chaitanya said "ekale isvara krsna" - that is his truth. Goswami Tulsi das said the same thing about Lord Ramachandra! That was his truth. At the time of Ramachandra, the rishis prayed to Lord Shiva with the same feelings and that was their truth!! Radha Rani can make Krsna dance the way she likes and that is her truth!! This is complicated but simple concept. People in Barsana do not pay attention to Krsna as they do to Radha Rani. They say - We have Radha, Krsna will have to come after her anyway!! He can't remain far! So all we need is her mercy! I do not have to follow Chaitanya's God positioning!!

 

You said: "We are not biased towards anyone. If the shastras would have said that Siva is supreme, we would have accepted it."

 

And I quoted many shastras that you probably didn't even read!! Again, this God positioning agenda is completely yours and you can pursue it forever! I have nothing to do with it. But one has to follow a certain path leading to liberation. People who finally get a mukti through the grace of Lord Shiva do not spin in a vacuum. They enjoy Lord Shiva's pastimes in ShivaLoka in devotional service. Just as Vaishnavas go to Vaikunth!

 

My family has a healthy union of Vaishnava and Shiava culture. So I don't feel myself too narrowed down with a one sided aspect. And I feel myself blessed to be willing in the process of understanding the different sides of Vdic Snatana Dharma that came to be called 'Hinduism' in modern era. Yes Sanatana Dharma or the eternal righteous religion or more correctly Spiritual life is not limited to singing and dancing alone! It has other aspects too. And fortunately I am respectful towards them. And I do not consider yoga as "materialism" or simply as "postures" for the body either.

 

Let's continue this discussion with my due respects to you and all the true Vaishnavas!!

 

Om Namah Shivaya!

 

 

TIME - CALCULATION ??The smallest unit for measuring the time is called 'Nimesh'. The time taken to drop one's eyelid is called one Nimesh. A kala consists of fifteen Nimeshas and thirty Kalas make a 'Muhurta'. ??A day and a night consist of thirty 'Muhurtas'. A month consists of thirty days, divided into two fortnights. One fortnight is known as 'Krishna Paksha (dark lunar phase) and the other is known as Shukla Paksha (bright lunar phase). ??In Pitarloka the day consists of one fortnight and night of the same number of days. Shukla Paksha is the day of the Pitraloka and Krishna Paksha the night. ??One 'Ayana' consists of Six months. A year consists of two 'Ayanas'. One year of the earth is equivalent to a day and a night of the deities. The six months when Sun is in the southern hemisphere of the earth, is actually the time when the deities experience night. On the contrary, the six months when sun is in the northern hemisphere, is the day time of the deities. One year of the deities is equivalent to three hundred and sixty years of this world. ??The yugas are counted on the basis of the years of the deities. According to the scholars there are four yugas - Satyayuga, Tretayuga, Dwapar yuga and Kaliyuga. ??A satyayuga is equivalent to four thousand years of the deities. ??A Treta yuga is equivalent to three thousand years of the deities. ?Similarly a dwapar yuga is equivalent to two thousand years of the deities and a Kaliyuga to that of one Thousand years of the deities. ??This way all the four yugas collectively are equivalent to twelve thousand years of the deities. ??A Kalpa consists of one thousand Chaturyugas. A Manvantar consists of seventy one Chaturyugas. ??One Kalpa is inhibited by fourteen Manus one after another in succession. ??A Brahma's day is equivalent to one divine Kalpa. A Brahma's year is equivalent to one thousand Kalpas. A Brahma's yuga consists of eight thousand such years. ??A Brahma's ' Savan' consists of his one thousand yugas. Brahma's life span is complete after three thousand such Sawanas. Five lakh and forty thousand numbers of Indras succeed one after another during the whole life span of Brahma. ??A Vishnu day is equivalent to the whole life span of Brahma. The whole life span of Vishnu is equivalent to a day of 'Rudra'. The whole life span of Rudra is equivalent to a day of lord Shiva. In the whole life of lord Shiva five lakh and four thousand numbers of Rudras come and go. A Shiva's day commences with the creation and before the end of the night the whole creation gets annihilated. Sadashiva is eternal.

[harshad]

It is not only an understanding of only Gaudiya Vaishnavas that Krsna is the supreme, but it is the understanding of Narada, Vyasa, Sukadeva Gosvami, Yudhisthir, Yamaraj and all the twelve mahajanas, and not to forget, Lord Brahma too (Govindam adi purusham, tam aham bhajami)....

 

Please give me the reference from the scriptures where it is mentioned that Lord Siva can give four types of Mukti. Dont just give the translation, give the sanskrit sloka.

 

You said " The Lord sends his top representatives and He Himself comes from time to time to establish righteousness and emphasize a particular aspect of spiritual life. "

 

And I reply : But Krsna Himself says in the Gita that He comes to establish true religion (not emphasize a particular aspect of the absolute truth).

 

You said : "And this (Gaudiya) lineage was started only 500 years ago. Krsna bhakti has always been a part of indian culture though.

 

And I reply : So what difference does it make ??? The Sri Lineage was established only 1000 years ago and the Madhva Lineage only 2000 years ago... Why should time be a consideration in determining what the absolute truth is ??? The gaudiya lineage was not started, it was brought down on earthly planets by the desire of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

 

You say : " I never talk out of ignorance and I'm well aware of the feelings and literature of Gaudiya Sampradaya with at least 14 years of research starting a time when I started associating with Gopal Krisna Goswami back in Vrndavana. But I am also well researched know sadhna intricacies of the Shaiva and Shakta and Tantra lineages too. If you read the Hindi literature you know about the saints of 'Bhakti Kaal'. Lord Chaitanya also came during this period, So did Mirabai, Goswami Tulsidas, Kabir, and many other great saints. All were great saints and acheived God realization through the devotional nectar of bhakti, love and compassion. That was the accent during this period. It was a difficult period for India that was under the Muslim and British opression. People needed more patience and love. There was a need for Bhakti more than ever. "

 

And I reply : Now I understood, why you speak like that. You say that you researched deeply into Gaudiya scriptures for 14 years, so did you not read the verse :

 

"bahu-ästre bahu-väkye citte bhrama haya

sädhya-sädhana srestha nä haya niscaya" (CC Adi 16.11)

 

Translation : If one becomes a bookworm, reading many books and scriptures and hearing many commentaries and the instructions of many men, this will produce doubt within his heart. One cannot in this way ascertain the real goal of life.

 

Read the purport : In Srimad-Bhägavatam (7.13.8) it is said, granthän naiväbhyased bahün na vyäkhyäm upayunjita: “One should not read many books, nor should one try to make a profession of reciting many books, especially if one is a devotee.” One must give up the ambition to be a learned scholar and in this way earn a worldly reputation and financial facilities. If one diverts his attention to studying many books, he cannot fix his mind in devotional service, nor can he understand many scriptures, for they are full of grave statements and meanings. In this connection Srila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvati Thäkura gives his opinion that those who are attracted to studying many kinds of literature concerning various subject matters, especially fruitive activities and philosophical speculation, are deprived of unalloyed devotional service because of their splayed attention.

Man has a general tendency toward fruitive activities, religious ritualistic ceremonies and philosophical speculation. A living entity thus bewildered since time immemorial does not understand the real goal of life, and thus his activities in life are wasted. Innocent persons misled in this way are deprived of unalloyed krsna-bhakti, devotional service to the Lord. Tapana Misra is a vivid example of such a person. He was a learned scholar, but he could not ascertain what the goal of life is. Therefore he was given a chance to hear Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu instructing Sanätana Gosvämi. Lord Caitanya’s instruction to Tapana Misra is especially significant for persons who loiter here and there collecting books and reading none of them, thus becoming bewildered regarding the aim of life.

-- END OF PURPORT --

 

So, if you say that you have done research on many sastras and that there are other paths as good as bhakti, then this verse applies to you.

 

You say : And give wrong examples. For example I also often hear the "pot smoking Shiva babas" example in Iskcon. Now if was to talk about Iskcon judging just by a few people, then I would say something like - "oh these guys have millions of dollars of child molestation cases and so many things happening inside". But NO! As this is not the Iskcon standard, but a few mistakes committed by some of the people in it.

 

And I reply : So, you are very much hurt by the statements of some neophytes who decry Lord Siva... You should not associate with such devotees who criticize Lord Siva. Why do you choose to associate with such devotees ??? Why dont you simply keep association of Prabhupada's books ??? Why go here and there and take everyone's opinion ??? Just read prabhupadas books and you will see the difference.

 

You say : If Krsna and Rama established an example of sadhna then it was not about all dancing and singing!! This is what Chaitanya did! This was not what they did in the Vedic Kaal!! Of course, bhakti was always a very important element present in any sadhna. In order for me to judge something for myself, I have to try it completely upto a level, research it thoroughly, know its essence and then talk over it. Similarly, I would appreciate, someone to learn the Shaiva, Shakt, Yoga tradition well enough and practice it, and only then pass a judgement. Otherwise all talk and no walk is not the best way to know the reality!!

 

And I reply : Caitanya is non-different from Lord Krsna and Lord Rama. If you have seen the sad-bhuja murti of Mahaprabhu, it clearly shows that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is non-different from Krsna and Rama. Do you know what sad-bhuja murti is ??? As far as practising any system and then judging it is concerned, i would like to say that, in my life of 50-70 years, I do not have any time to perfect myself in any other system of knowledge other than bhakti. If my life would have been 10000 years then I could have given a consideration. As far as I am concerned, I simply follow what Prabhupada has said :

 

"The fact is that I am the only one in India who is openly criticizing, not only demigod worship and impersonalism, but everything that falls short of complete surrender to Krishna. My Guru Maharaja never compromised in His preaching, nor will I nor should any of my students. We are firmly convinced that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all other are His part and parcel servants. This we must declare boldly to the whole world, that they should not foolishly dream of world peace unless they are prepared to surrender fully to Krishna as Supreme Lord."

(Said by Prabhupada in Letter to Giriraja Maharaja)

 

You say : And I quoted many shastras that you probably didn't even read!! Again, this God positioning agenda is completely yours and you can pursue it forever! I have nothing to do with it. But one has to follow a certain path leading to liberation. People who finally get a mukti through the grace of Lord Shiva do not spin in a vacuum. They enjoy Lord Shiva's pastimes in ShivaLoka in devotional service. Just as Vaishnavas go to Vaikunth!

 

And I reply : Just quote sastras with sanskrit verses giving references like I do. Dont just quote the translations. God positioning is not my agenda, it is the system of understanding of the absolute truth given in the entire bhagavatam, the entire Gaudiya Vaishnava understandings.

 

You say : Goswami Tulsi das said the same thing about Lord Ramachandra! That was his truth. At the time of Ramachandra, the rishis prayed to Lord Shiva with the same feelings and that was their truth!! Radha Rani can make Krsna dance the way she likes and that is her truth!! This is complicated but simple concept. People in Barsana do not pay attention to Krsna as they do to Radha Rani. They say - We have Radha, Krsna will have to come after her anyway!! He can't remain far! So all we need is her mercy! I do not have to follow Chaitanya's God positioning!!

 

And I Reply : There are not many truths. There is only one truth. Tulsidas' truth, Radharani's truth , if you compare like that, it will be offensive because, you are not on the level of Tulsidas or Srimati Radharani. Nobody can ever be on the level of Srimati Radharani.

 

If you think that people in Varsana do not give as much attention to Lord Krsna as they do to Srimati Radharani, then I must say that you are heavily mistaken.

 

You associated with Gopal Krsna Maharaj who is making thousands of devotees all around the world, yet you could not understand the real purpose of life ??? If you do not want to follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teachings, then you can do whatever you want. Be a great scholar, and read all scriptures, and then pass a judgement. But do not pass a judgement on the gaudiya scriptures unless you read them completely. Lord Ramacandra was an incarnation of Lord Krsna as given in the Srimad Bhagavatam (there is no other scripture which disagrees with this) :

 

asmat-prasäda-sumukhah kalayä kalesa

iksväku-vamsa avatirya guror nidese

tisthan vanam sa-dayitänuja ävivesa

yasmin virudhya dasa-kandhara ärtim ärcchat (SB 2.7.23)

 

Translation : Due to His causeless mercy upon all living entities within the universe, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, along with His plenary extensions, appeared in the family of Mahäräja Iksväku as the Lord of His internal potency, Sitä. Under the order of His father, Mahäräja Dasaratha, He entered the forest and lived there for considerable years with His wife and younger brother. Rävana, who was very materially powerful, with ten heads on his shoulders, committed a great offense against Him and was thus ultimately vanquished.

 

so, if you have actually read all the gaudiya scriptures, why did you not read this verse ????

 

And if you have not read all the gaudiya scriptures, why do you pass your judgement on them ????

 

Hare Krsna...

[Guest guest]

Om Namah Shivaya!

All Glories to Paramhansa Swami Nikhileshwarananda!

Sri Krsna Bhagwan ki jai!

 

Lol! Harshad!! The more you argue, the more love I feel for you. Like a cute baby!! I know where this argument is leading us to. But I really am not aiming to fight with you over the superiority of our beloved forms of the Lord!! The problem here is that you follow the words of Lord spoken at one period of time and do not accept his words spoken at another period of time. Because, you are so attached to one particular form. When Krsna assumed and showed his divine form, he was just not the cowherd Krsna but Narayan himself. Now think for a moment, the Krsna who had showed the whole universe in his mouth and showed the radiance of a thousand suns in his eternal form, after showing all this to Arjuna goes on to narrate the eternal form of Lord Sadashiva and how he had to perform rigorous tapasya to see this form!!! Isn't there any greatness in it?? As I mentioned in my previous mail that the problem is not with the Lord, but with the followers!! You are the follower!! And you have the problem. Prabhupada had a problem with everybody else except his school!! He condemned everyone!

 

Is Krsna God?? That's where we started this thread. Yes, Krsna is bhagawan and nobody can deny it!! One Bhagwatam is less to describe the greatness of Krsna!

This earthly life has a deeper meaning to it. That's why even the Gods yearn to have birth and come here like ordinary humans. This life and body is not all excreta and malice. Now this life is not only about sense gratification either as Prabhupada says in his lecture that all professional life is about sense gratification. If I were to follow that, then I would leave my profession and sit under a tree in Vrndavana and beg for food while preaching very high ideas of life on other planets while myself hardly being able to make two ends meet. And the only aim is to go back. There are other aspects to it, that your 'sampradaya' overlooks. If today I have a problem in the family and I go to one of the Gurus in Iskcon, then they are not able to present a good remedy for it. They can say, love Krsna, sing bhajan and read Prabhupada's books!! But I need a specific solution to a specific problem in my life. But they have nothing to do with material life, and I still have time to go back to Godhead. What do I do? They themselves don't have a family!! And they themselves are not Jivanmukta yet!! But there is a material life too and it has problems related to material nature!! Okay, let me reply to your mail now.

 

 

You said:

"It is not only an understanding of only Gaudiya Vaishnavas that Krsna is the supreme, but it is the understanding of Narada, Vyasa, Sukadeva Gosvami, Yudhisthir, Yamaraj and all the twelve mahajanas, and not to forget, Lord Brahma too (Govindam adi purusham, tam aham bhajami)...."

I reply: taking into consideration your God positioning agenda and fact you wrote that you position Narayan or Vishnu lower than Krsna, then you must know, that Narad whom you are proudly quote chanted the name "Narayan, Narayan!!" and not Krsna Krsna! He gave initiation to Bhakta Prahlad of "Om namah Bhagwate Vasudevaya" mantra and not Hare Krsna mantra! Lol! Of course Vasudev is Krsna and Vasudev is Narayana!

The same Lord Lord Brahma prays to Lord Shiva as the Supreme Lord of all Lords too!! Why don't you ask him whom he finally prefers? If you see the Time table I gave in previous mail, you will see that Lord Shiva is the ADI-MAHADEVA! ??You asked (Harshad): "Please give me the reference from the scriptures where it is mentioned that Lord Siva can give four types of Mukti. Dont just give the translation, give the sanskrit sloka."?

I reply (Shaiva): Take Padma Purana and go to the section that is the Shiva Gita. You will not find this Purana with BBT!! Go and get a copy at the Gita Press, a leading Vaishnava literature Press not narrowly limited to Gaudiya sects. Here Lord Shiva preaches to Ramachandra that HE is the giver of the four kinds of mukti or liberation.

I have different rules for a preacher. I believe that every Tom, Dick and Hary cannot just preach to others like in your sect. The preaching should come from a personality that is at least somewhat realized. Because the process of Yog and tantra are not simple bhakti where you can say - sing and dance and love and memorize cantos. If you are not realized you cannot help the devotee in case of higher levels of consciousness. So I never made an agenda to preach by naming verses. I am naming them here, because there is no other way that you would understand it through as individual Self realization does not play any part. Only your ability to quote the chapter, verse numbers etc. But believe me you will find the verse in the Shiva Gita!! It is very much similar to Gita of Krsna (so Krsna received the Gita in his previous incarnation from Lord SadaShiva - a fact that I know in advanced would only provoke, agitate you and you will not believe this!). But as I read the lovingly Vaishnava scriptures, including the books of Prabhupada, I suggest you to read this too!!

???You (Harshad) said: "But Krsna Himself says in the Gita that He comes to establish true religion (not emphasize a particular aspect of the absolute truth)."

My (Shaiva) reply: Yes he did that! But there is a difference in the Bhagawad gyan that Krsna laid forth and the twist that Prabhupada gave to it. Kisna did display all different characteristics and opulence of his magnificent persona. He was a 'Yogishwar' and not just a lover, cowboy! He showed the pinnacle of sadhna, siddhi, yog, gyan, mimansa, and everything. But Prabhupada zeroed everything on devotional service and singing bhajans! The teachings of Prabhupada are heavily colored and accented by the bhakti movement!! It is not all Vedic!! This is a fact! He overlooked all aspects of Vedic sadhna paddhati!! What's more the Vedic label is to gain confidence. If you claim that all the mantras and sadhnas that were being practiced in the Vedic period are ineffective in Kaliyuga and that Hari-naam is the "ONLY" way, then I wonder why you even care to call yourself as Vedic? Of course the Vedas are the basis and they mentioning incite confidence amongst masses! (Just like saying Hindu incites some sense of preference amongst Hindu diaspora when you need their support in terms of funds and social acceptability abroad). But the sadhna paddhati in Vedic period was different than what you follow. Know that I speak the truth here. You do not even read the Vedas!! Because : Prabhupada didn't translate them all, Gita and Bhagwatam are the essence of all Vedas, so why care to read them, other parts of Vedas are for people of lower intelligence. This is a wrong notion spread by your sect. Did Shri Vyasadeva say so? Did he say that okay guys only Bhagwatam is meant for higher class intellectuals and all other Vedas are for the lower intellect people? What about other branches of Knowledge that the rishis and Vyasdeva laid down so laboriously for the benefit of mankind?

Out of the four main achievements of human life: 1.Dharma, 2. Arth, 3. Kaam, 4. Moksh - you seem to follow only the last one! But you still have the desires! You still are in a material body and a material universe. You still have your needs. And no matter how much you may pose to be "out of Maya", you still are bounded by it! You can't ignore the rules of prakriti, which go hand in hand with the rules of maya!! You may give a hundred verses on how Krsna controlled maya, but what difference does that make for you?? He did what he did!! What about you?? You are still a part of it as your body that has needs and they are to be met! Don't you agree? And again, after becoming a 'sanyasi' and getting a Vedic sounding name, there are worries about making money!! I know two American brothers (don't want to bring up their names here) who were the first disciples of Prabhupada and now run a dvd selling kiosk in front of the Krsna Balaram Mandir in Vrndavana. They might be leading their spiritual life, but they also have to sustain their needs and hence do some sort of business. Why didn't they leave everything and just live on alms and only sing and chant? Do you think our rishis were fools that they laid down these four main accomplishments without which life is not complete?? Krsna enjoyed everything in his life, while establishing the highest principles! Vivekananda was right in saying that one should be self reliant. That was so much needed in India especially in those days. A magnificent and grand country as 'Bharatwarsh' became slave because of this begging and humility. Because they accepted that this life is nothing!! We are nothing!! Our bodies are excreta and bones and flesh and we are fallen! And came forth personalities that showed showed this self reliance, confidence and the will power. And Prabhupada called him a rascal! You can't lead the life of a beggar in the name of spiritual progress!!

?"Shaiva : "And this (Gaudiya) lineage was started only 500 years ago. Krsna bhakti has always been a part of indian culture though.

Harshad : So what difference does it make ??? The Sri Lineage was established only 1000 years ago and the Madhva Lineage only 2000 years ago... Why should time be a consideration in determining what the absolute truth is ??? The gaudiya lineage was not started, it was brought down on earthly planets by the desire of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.?

Shaiva: The difference is in your thinking and putting down all other branches of knowledge! Putting down all other schools of God realization. The lineage that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu brought or started or you may feel more comfortable with the expression brought down to earthly planets ( but why planetS? I thought we have just this planet we are living on! Anyway..!), is not the same as the methods of sadhna followed by Garg, Atri, Kanad, Pulatsya, Vishvamitra, Vashishtha, Agastya, Bognath, Gorakhnath, Matsyendranath, Shankaracharya, Nikhileshwarananda and other Vedic divine personalities. So there is the difference. Here I want to make clear my view, that though this Gaudiya lineage is different, but it is bona-fide, and authentic! It is a way to reach Krsna and it is a way to get his mercy. Understand me correctly - I do accept and acknowledge the truth in the preaching of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu! For you to write a line like in favor of devotion to Lord Shiva would be very difficult as you may not be able to accept anything else. You may not accept any other God realized saint either. And fortunately Bharatvarsh had plenty of them. Each came to shower mercy and show a path to HIM! And no I do not accept that singing bhajan and book distribution is the ONLY path!! It is one way of doing sadhna. ?It is your way. And a good way. Keep it up! /images/graemlins/smile.gif?

Harshad : Now I understood, why you speak like that. You say that you researched deeply into Gaudiya scriptures for 14 years, so did you not read the verse : ?"bahu-ästre bahu-väkye citte bhrama haya?sädhya-sädhana srestha nä haya niscaya" (CC Adi 16.11)?Translation : If one becomes a bookworm, reading many books and scriptures and hearing many commentaries and the instructions of many men, this will produce doubt within his heart. One cannot in this way ascertain the real goal of life.?

Shaiva: I read the verse, but I do not really need to read this particular verse to know this fact. I have enough of one verse that says: "nana panth jagat mein, nij nij gun gaven, sab ka saar bata kar Guru marag laven" !

It is true that one has to follow a particular path to get sure success in his sadhna! Otherwise, he will get distracted from his own sadhna. So it is good that you follow the way shown by Sri Chaitanya! As far as becoming a bookworm is concerned, then again there is this hypocrisy thing in your sect. Though you proudly quoted the verse, but most of the times, the only source seems to be these books for you to quote something!! You spend endless time to read and memorize these quotes so that you can meet a guy in street and impress him with one of the quotes and win over an argument! So much for the book worming!

?Harshad: Read the purport : In Srimad-Bhägavatam (7.13.8) it is said, granthän naiväbhyased bahün na vyäkhyäm upayunjita: “One should not read many books, nor should one try to make a profession of reciting many books, especially if one is a devotee.” One must give up the ambition to be a learned scholar and in this way earn a worldly reputation and financial facilities. If one diverts his attention to studying many books, he cannot fix his mind in devotional service, nor can he understand many scriptures, for they are full of grave statements and meanings. In this connection Srila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvati Thäkura gives his opinion that those who are attracted to studying many kinds of literature concerning various subject matters, especially fruitive activities and philosophical speculation, are deprived of unalloyed devotional service because of their splayed attention.?Man has a general tendency toward fruitive activities, religious ritualistic ceremonies and philosophical speculation. A living entity thus bewildered since time immemorial does not understand the real goal of life, and thus his activities in life are wasted. Innocent persons misled in this way are deprived of unalloyed krsna-bhakti, devotional service to the Lord. Tapana Misra is a vivid example of such a person. He was a learned scholar, but he could not ascertain what the goal of life is. Therefore he was given a chance to hear Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu instructing Sanätana Gosvämi. Lord Caitanya’s instruction to Tapana Misra is especially significant for persons who loiter here and there collecting books and reading none of them, thus becoming bewildered regarding the aim of life.?-- END OF PURPORT --?So, if you say that you have done research on many sastras and that there are other paths as good as bhakti, then this verse applies to you."

 

Shaiva: I think Bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati and Bhagwatam quotes are good, as intellectual discussions do not necessarily make you achieve spiritual heights. But they do establish some 'viveka' in you. But if I didn't read Prabhupada's books, then how would I know your philosophy? Also you just advised me to do the same. When I came in contact with Iskcon, I was attracted by the Ksna bhakti primarily as most Hindus do! But then as I came closer I found certain things that didn't seem right, but I do not wave off a school of thought without studying it first. Oh.. and talking about this verse, once Prabhupada commented about his disciples, that they distribute more books than what they read! And book distribution has been a major part of every present day Guru's life. Why do you distribute so many books? For people to read and become book worms?? lol ! Doesn't make sense! Why don't you just follow this verse then? I know, you want people to read just the books that you think important and not the other ones. You guys are funnier than funny!?

?Harshad : So, you are very much hurt by the statements of some neophytes who decry Lord Siva... You should not associate with such devotees who criticize Lord Siva. Why do you choose to associate with such devotees ??? Why dont you simply keep association of Prabhupada's books ??? Why go here and there and take everyone's opinion ??? Just read prabhupadas books and you will see the difference.?

Shaiva: I meet these neophytes in Iskcon so often, that sometimes I wish I didn't associate with them. But there are some very good devotees too, that I am happy to associate with. I can always know the neophytes from the genuine ones. But I do not strictly follow Prabhupada's example to criticize them. Yes I do read Prabhupad's books. I liked reading especially the Nectar of devotion where he explained the swadhishthan and manipur chakra (within brackets) as Large, small intestines!! And since Yogis meditate on these "body parts" they are materialists, but even they have a chance!! As the 'Ritviks' argue that Prabhupad was the last Guru on planet earth for the next ten thousand years! And all knowledge is in his books! So if I need to find an answer, then I will have to read all of his books, just a few thousand pages! So much for book-worming! lol!! Keep up the humor!

?Shaiva: If Krsna and Rama established an example of sadhna then it was not about all dancing and singing!! This is what Chaitanya did! This was not what they did in the Vedic Kaal!! Of course, bhakti was always a very important element present in any sadhna. In order for me to judge something for myself, I have to try it completely upto a level, research it thoroughly, know its essence and then talk over it. Similarly, I would appreciate, someone to learn the Shaiva, Shakt, Yoga tradition well enough and practice it, and only then pass a judgement. Otherwise all talk and no walk is not the best way to know the reality!!??Harshad : Caitanya is non-different from Lord Krsna and Lord Rama. If you have seen the sad-bhuja murti of Mahaprabhu, it clearly shows that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is non-different from Krsna and Rama. Do you know what sad-bhuja murti is ??? As far as practising any system and then judging it is concerned, i would like to say that, in my life of 50-70 years, I do not have any time to perfect myself in any other system of knowledge other than bhakti. If my life would have been 10000 years then I could have given a consideration.

Shaiva: If I follow what all murtis are there in India, then I will have to need a couple of more lifetimes to know basic 'mahima' behind each. You are right at that too. No I do not worship the sad-bhuja murti. What's the need? I can instal any murti in my agya chakra and worship it! Be it Rama or Shiva, or my Gurudev Paramhansa Swami Nikhileshwarananda! And I follow this kriya yoga technique that was so earnestly taught by Krsna to Arjuna in Bhagwad Gita!!

 

Harshad: As far as I am concerned, I simply follow what Prabhupada has said :?"The fact is that I am the only one in India who is openly criticizing, not only demigod worship and impersonalism, but everything that falls short of complete surrender to Krishna. My Guru Maharaja never compromised in His preaching, nor will I nor should any of my students. We are firmly convinced that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all other are His part and parcel servants. This we must declare boldly to the whole world, that they should not foolishly dream of world peace unless they are prepared to surrender fully to Krishna as Supreme Lord."?(Said by Prabhupada in Letter to Giriraja Maharaja)?

Shaiva: Yes Prabhupada was good at criticizing!! He did not let go a chance to criticize others and praise his own philosophy! lol! Not really being sarcastic here. This was not very practical thing considering current world geo- political and social situation. Krsna himself followed the norms for society at times and Bhishma was a great acharya in the matters of Dharma, politics and social values. Shiva bhakti was very widespread then too!!! Kunti was a true bhaktini of Lord Shiva!! Was she an obstacle to world peace? Prabhupada was biased completely!! What about someone who completely wants to surrender to Lord Shiva??? Will he be an obstacle to world peace?? What if he wants to surrender to Jesus? What about Durga? Another obstacle to world peace??? Mahabharata was not anything about world peace either!! The whole episode was about fighting. Though for righteousness. During the whole Gita, Krsna is trying to pursue Arjuna to stand and fight!! Of course people should surrender to Krsna as the Lord!! If they can get Krsna bhakti and surrender the fruits of their actions to him, they have a chance to be liberated! Lord Shiva says to Rama in Shiva Gita that surrender all your actions unto me! Your everyday actions!

?Shaiva said earlier: And I quoted many shastras that you probably didn't even read!! Again, this God positioning agenda is completely yours and you can pursue it forever! I have nothing to do with it. But one has to follow a certain path leading to liberation. People who finally get a mukti through the grace of Lord Shiva do not spin in a vacuum. They enjoy Lord Shiva's pastimes in ShivaLoka in devotional service. Just as Vaishnavas go to Vaikunth! ?

Harshad : Just quote sastras with sanskrit verses giving references like I do. Dont just quote the translations. God positioning is not my agenda, it is the system of understanding of the absolute truth given in the entire bhagavatam, the entire Gaudiya Vaishnava understandings.?

Shaiva: Harshad you are not exactly an example for me to follow, though I respect you for your steadfastness in Krsna bhakti and in Vaishnavism. So if you say do as I do, then don't you think that you are expecting too much? I did quote exact phrases from shastras. And Bhagwatam is not the only shastra available. Go and get yourself a copy of Shiva Gita and read it! It is not too voluminous. But what am I saying? You would never do that!! I have Bhagwad Gita by different authors including Sivananda and Srila Prabhupada. And I read it!! Nobody limits or narrow minds a Shaiva as to not to read the Vaishnava scriptures. They are very good! But you are limited by Prabhupada, hence you are not going to read anything that he didn't write a commentary on! Why do you need me to quote sanskrit?? What for? To impress you? Or you don't understand Hindi or English? The Knowledge is there. Go and get it if you sincerely want to know ! But if it's only about arguing, then you will argue anyway!

?Shaiva earlier said : Goswami Tulsi das said the same thing about Lord Ramachandra! That was his truth. At the time of Ramachandra, the rishis prayed to Lord Shiva with the same feelings and that was their truth!! Radha Rani can make Krsna dance the way she likes and that is her truth!! This is complicated but simple concept. People in Barsana do not pay attention to Krsna as they do to Radha Rani. They say - We have Radha, Krsna will have to come after her anyway!! He can't remain far! So all we need is her mercy! I do not have to follow Chaitanya's God positioning!! ??Harshad : There are not many truths. There is only one truth. Tulsidas' truth, Radharani's truth , if you compare like that, it will be offensive because, you are not on the level of Tulsidas or Srimati Radharani. Nobody can ever be on the level of Srimati Radharani.?

Shaiva: What about Mirabai?? She got Krsna in this age of Kali!! Krsna was physically available to Radha's eyes back then! So what is the truth from Goswami Tulsidas's side?? He wasn't singing the Mahamantra of Chaitanya! And he wasn't singing the exact name Krsna!! HE loved Rama!! Why is it offensive?? Where was the offense in surrendering to Rama? None! So I can go today and surrender to Rama, also a complete incarnation of Shri MahaVishnu Narayana, fully able to shower his mercy and give me Liberation and accept me to Vaikunth. Tulsidas says "basi baikunth parampad pawein" !!! Sorry no sanskrit verse here. Where is the offense?? Are you trying to scare me with this offense thing? Before you tried that 'blasphemy' tactic! lol! I don't get scared by such things!

 

?Harshad: If you think that people in Varsana do not give as much attention to Lord Krsna as they do to Srimati Radharani, then I must say that you are heavily mistaken. ?

Shaiva: What's so heavy about it?? I go there and speak to people. Most of them say that. Whether it Jagdish Maharaj or Ramesh Baba!! People in Vrindavana speak out Radhe-Radhe all the time. If you look at the walls in Vrindavan and start counting the names written on them, you will find Radhe and Shri Radhe far out numbering Krishna!! Of course they see them together. But the whole Braj system is based on Krsna's pre adolescent life there. Krsna came for a higher aim and left the place much earlier. But the accent here is on his childhood pastimes as that's what the Brijwasis' are attached to. What is heavy about it my learned friend??

?Harshad: You associated with Gopal Krsna Maharaj who is making thousands of devotees all around the world, yet you could not understand the real purpose of life ??? If you do not want to follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teachings, then you can do whatever you want. Be a great scholar, and read all scriptures, and then pass a judgement. But do not pass a judgement on the gaudiya scriptures unless you read them completely.

Shaiva: What makes you think that I have not idea of the real purpose of life? He is making thousands of devotees around the world and so I don't understand the purpose of life? Maybe I don't!! Maybe I should also start making at least a hundred devotees and get my feet washed!! Then my life's purpose will be fulfilled! I do not associate with him alone, but with other Gurus as well. What's in the quantity?? What about quality? In Kaliyuga, gathering as much followers as possible has remained a top agenda! This does not seem any different than the political leaders - one who has more followers is better off. India is full of various sects and all preach love, devotion, service, about God, Krsna, Rama, doing good. They all want to gather as many people in their fold as possible!!

 

Harshad: Lord Ramacandra was an incarnation of Lord Krsna as given in the Srimad Bhagavatam (there is no other scripture which disagrees with this) : ??asmat-prasäda-sumukhah kalayä kalesa?iksväku-vamsa avatirya guror nidese?tisthan vanam sa-dayitänuja ävivesa?yasmin virudhya dasa-kandhara ärtim ärcchat (SB 2.7.23)??Translation : Due to His causeless mercy upon all living entities within the universe, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, along with His plenary extensions, appeared in the family of Mahäräja Iksväku as the Lord of His internal potency, Sitä. Under the order of His father, Mahäräja Dasaratha, He entered the forest and lived there for considerable years with His wife and younger brother. Rävana, who was very materially powerful, with ten heads on his shoulders, committed a great offense against Him and was thus ultimately vanquished.?

Shaiva: When you say that you sound hilarious!! Rama came first not Krsna!! Why can't you keep track of time?? Did Satyayuga came after Dwapara? or Treta? Oh again you changed Vishnu or Narayana to Krsna. You see Krsna everywhere!! That is a good sign!

?Harshad: so, if you have actually read all the gaudiya scriptures, why did you not read this verse ?????

Shaiva: As I stated before Gaudiya philosophy was formed 500 years back only!! Okay, fine, came down on earth!! Gita and Bhagwatam were written much before that. Now why did you had to rewrite them again? To be in line with your philosophy. I guess the BBT is still busy finishing parts of Bhagwatam to be written in their fashion? Or is it that my information is now older?

?Harshad: And if you have not read all the gaudiya scriptures, why do you pass your judgement on them ?????

Shaiva: Gita is as much of a Gaudiya scripture as it is of any other Vaishnava Sampradaya much before this Gaudiya came into existence!!

Also, do you want me to read each and every verse written in every Vaishnava scripture?? Aren't you contradicting your own self Harshad? Aren't you asking me to become a book worm?? Srimad-Bhägavatam (7.13.8) warns you against this? You quoted that!! Now see where you are going.

?Harshad: Hare Krsna... Shaiva: - Jai Bhole Nath ki!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif?

[harshad]

Lets review again what you have said :

 

1) When Krsna assumed and showed his divine form, he was just not the cowherd Krsna but Narayan himself.

 

My answer : Wrong.. He showed the universal form which contained all the incarnations, which proved that all incarnations are present in Krsna.

 

2) Now think for a moment, the Krsna who had showed the whole universe in his mouth and showed the radiance of a thousand suns in his eternal form, after showing all this to Arjuna goes on to narrate the eternal form of Lord Sadashiva and how he had to perform rigorous tapasya to see this form!!!

 

Ans) Are you talking about Bhagavad Gita ??? As far as I know, after showing the universal form, Krsna shows his two-armed form to arjuna and then goes ahead to explain devotional service to arjuna. And Krsna also says "Bhaktya Mam Abhijanati" in the bhagavad gita, which means "Only the devotee can know me"... Not a yogi or a gyani. I have requested you so many times to give me one verse from any scripture written by Vyasa which shows superiority of Siva over Krsna ... why have you not done that ????

 

3) Now this life is not only about sense gratification either as Prabhupada says in his lecture that all professional life is about sense gratification. If I were to follow that, then I would leave my profession and sit under a tree in Vrndavana and beg for food while preaching very high ideas of life on other planets while myself hardly being able to make two ends meet. And the only aim is to go back. There are other aspects to it, that your 'sampradaya' overlooks. If today I have a problem in the family and I go to one of the Gurus in Iskcon, then they are not able to present a good remedy for it. They can say, love Krsna, sing bhajan and read Prabhupada's books!! But I need a specific solution to a specific problem in my life. But they have nothing to do with material life, and I still have time to go back to Godhead. What do I do? They themselves don't have a family!! And they themselves are not Jivanmukta yet!! But there is a material life too and it has problems related to material nature!!

 

Ans.) You have not understood what yukta vairagya means. For you, renunciation means going to Vrindavana. This is not the type of renunciation taught in ISKCON. You have again misundertood and passed a wrong judgement. The gurus in ISKCON give long term solutions (chanting Hare Krsna, reading Prabhupadas books), but you want a quick short term solution. That we cannot give, because we dont support short term solutions. No matter how much jivanmukta you become, material world always has problems. Even Lord Krsna had to face the opposition and bad words of Sisupala, so your fancied life of zero material distress is not to be fulfilled in this world. Instead one should pray like Kunti Devi prays :

 

vipadah santu täh sasvat

tatra tatra jagad-guro

bhavato darsanam yat syäd

apunar bhava-darsanam

 

Translation : I wish that all those calamities would happen again and again so that we could see You again and again, for seeing You means that we will no longer see repeated births and deaths. (SB 1.8.25)

 

This is the result of devotional service. One forgets his happiness and distress and concentrates on the Lord. If you want temporary solutions to temporary problems, go to a management guru. But again, those management gurus too have their own problems.

 

4) I reply: taking into consideration your God positioning agenda and fact you wrote that you position Narayan or Vishnu lower than Krsna, then you must know, that Narad whom you are proudly quote chanted the name "Narayan, Narayan!!" and not Krsna Krsna! He gave initiation to Bhakta Prahlad of "Om namah Bhagwate Vasudevaya" mantra and not Hare Krsna mantra! Lol! Of course Vasudev is Krsna and Vasudev is Narayana!

 

Ans) Who told you narada chants only "Narayan Narayan" ??? Dont take bogus information from TV serials. Narada chants various glories of the Lord. Of course Krsna is non different from narayana, yet there are small differences. Similarity and simultaneous difference, this is acintya bhedabheda tattva.

 

5) Take Padma Purana and go to the section that is the Shiva Gita. You will not find this Purana with BBT!! Go and get a copy at the Gita Press, a leading Vaishnava literature Press not narrowly limited to Gaudiya sects. Here Lord Shiva preaches to Ramachandra that HE is the giver of the four kinds of mukti or liberation.

I have different rules for a preacher. I believe that every Tom, Dick and Hary cannot just preach to others like in your sect. The preaching should come from a personality that is at least somewhat realized. Because the process of Yog and tantra are not simple bhakti where you can say - sing and dance and love and memorize cantos. If you are not realized you cannot help the devotee in case of higher levels of consciousness. So I never made an agenda to preach by naming verses. I am naming them here, because there is no other way that you would understand it through as individual Self realization does not play any part. Only your ability to quote the chapter, verse numbers etc. But believe me you will find the verse in the Shiva Gita!! It is very much similar to Gita of Krsna (so Krsna received the Gita in his previous incarnation from Lord SadaShiva - a fact that I know in advanced would only provoke, agitate you and you will not believe this!). But as I read the lovingly Vaishnava scriptures, including the books of Prabhupada, I suggest you to read this too!!

 

Ans) Gita press publishes all kinds of books, some prescribe meat sacrifices to Kali, some prescribe some other things. I dont want that hodgepodge. If you want that, fine... NOT ME... Why dont you eat meat as Ramakrsna Mission sadhus eat ???? Why dont you show your "harmony" towards them by eating meat and fish ???? Why dont you show your harmony towards Charvaka by following his philosophy and engaging in unlimited sex life ????? If you cannot do that, then stop calling us narrow-minded !!!! If you cannot follow all philosophies properly, stop calling us narrow minded, because atleast we are focussed on one philosophy.

 

6) If you claim that all the mantras and sadhnas that were being practiced in the Vedic period are ineffective in Kaliyuga and that Hari-naam is the "ONLY" way, then I wonder why you even care to call yourself as Vedic? Of course the Vedas are the basis and they mentioning incite confidence amongst masses! (Just like saying Hindu incites some sense of preference amongst Hindu diaspora when you need their support in terms of funds and social acceptability abroad). But the sadhna paddhati in Vedic period was different than what you follow. Know that I speak the truth here. You do not even read the Vedas!!

 

Ans.) HAVE YOU READ THE BHAGAVATAM ???? DID YOU READ THE LAST VERSE OF SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM ????? DONT CRACK JOKES HERE ....

näma-sankirtanam yasya

sarva-päpa pranäsanam

pranämo duhkha-samanas

tam namämi harim param (SB 12.13.23)

 

Translation : I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Lord, Hari, the congregational chanting of whose holy names destroys all sinful reactions, and the offering of obeisances unto whom relieves all material suffering.

 

DONT BLUFF PEOPLE ... THE VERSE OF CAITANYA CARITAMRITA PERFECTLY APPLIES TO YOU. YOU HAVE COLLECTED ALL SORTS OF LITERATURES, BUT HALF READ THEM ALL... YOU CANNOT EVEN QUOTE ONE VERSE...

 

7) Why didn't they leave everything and just live on alms and only sing and chant? Do you think our rishis were fools that they laid down these four main accomplishments without which life is not complete?? Krsna enjoyed everything in his life, while establishing the highest principles! Vivekananda was right in saying that one should be self reliant. That was so much needed in India especially in those days. A magnificent and grand country as 'Bharatwarsh' became slave because of this begging and humility. Because they accepted that this life is nothing!! We are nothing!! Our bodies are excreta and bones and flesh and we are fallen! And came forth personalities that showed showed this self reliance, confidence and the will power. And Prabhupada called him a rascal! You can't lead the life of a beggar in the name of spiritual progress!!

 

Ans.) You sir, are not only envious of Krsna, but also have not understood Yukta Vairagya properly. You are interested in phalgu vairagya, so go follow it...

 

8) I do accept and acknowledge the truth in the preaching of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu! For you to write a line like in favor of devotion to Lord Shiva would be very difficult as you may not be able to accept anything else. You may not accept any other God realized saint either. And fortunately Bharatvarsh had plenty of them. Each came to shower mercy and show a path to HIM! And no I do not accept that singing bhajan and book distribution is the ONLY path!! It is one way of doing sadhna. ?It is your way. And a good way. Keep it up!

 

Ans) Yes, go follow your way, and start your own school of knowledge. I will just quote one verse from the CC which caitanya mahaprabhu says :

 

brahma, ätmä, bhagavän—krsnera vihära

e artha nä jäni’ mürkha artha kare ära (CC ADI 2.60)

 

Translation : Not knowing that Brahman, Paramätmä and Bhagavän are all features of Krsna, foolish scholars speculate in various ways.

 

9) It is true that one has to follow a particular path to get sure success in his sadhna! Otherwise, he will get distracted from his own sadhna. So it is good that you follow the way shown by Sri Chaitanya! As far as becoming a bookworm is concerned, then again there is this hypocrisy thing in your sect. Though you proudly quoted the verse, but most of the times, the only source seems to be these books for you to quote something!! You spend endless time to read and memorize these quotes so that you can meet a guy in street and impress him with one of the quotes and win over an argument! So much for the book worming!

 

Ans.) We will do anything for Krsna. If you dont like it, go start your own school. You sir, are totally dipped and well soaked in envy of Krsna and His devotees. Gopala Krsna Maharaja must be having a hard time dealing with people like you...

 

10) If I follow what all murtis are there in India, then I will have to need a couple of more lifetimes to know basic 'mahima' behind each. You are right at that too. No I do not worship the sad-bhuja murti. What's the need? I can instal any murti in my agya chakra and worship it! Be it Rama or Shiva, or my Gurudev Paramhansa Swami Nikhileshwarananda! And I follow this kriya yoga technique that was so earnestly taught by Krsna to Arjuna in Bhagwad Gita!!

 

Ans.) WOW !! You just contradicted yourself. You yourself dont have time for all the murtis, and you expect people to know all vedic techniques before passing a judgement ???? And what am I hearing ????? Krishna taught Kriya Yoga in bhagavad gita ????? MWUHAHAHAHAHA .... WOW , great.... publish your bhagavad gita and try to sell it. Lets see how many devotees of Siva you can make ...

 

11) As I stated before Gaudiya philosophy was formed 500 years back only!! Okay, fine, came down on earth!! Gita and Bhagwatam were written much before that. Now why did you had to rewrite them again? To be in line with your philosophy. I guess the BBT is still busy finishing parts of Bhagwatam to be written in their fashion? Or is it that my information is now older?

 

Ans.) NO SIR... You dont even know what BBT is doing... The original bhagavatam was preserved on wood barks. We cannot sell that to anyone. We rewrote them to convey the exact meaning of the bhagavatam in english. BBT is publishing the same bhagavatam which prabhupada translated as it is... That is our system.

 

12) Also, do you want me to read each and every verse written in every Vaishnava scripture?? Aren't you contradicting your own self Harshad? Aren't you asking me to become a book worm?? Srimad-Bhägavatam (7.13.8) warns you against this? You quoted that!! Now see where you are going.

 

Ans.) I am only asking you to follow your own philosophy of understanding a philosophy completely before passing a judgement. I dont see how I am contradicting myself ???

 

GITA PRESS HAS CREATED HAVOC IN INDIA....

[Guest guest]

Dear Harshad Prabhu,

 

Om Namah Shivaya!!

 

I know you love to read verses.

You asked me to quote the exact verses of Lord Shiva Himself saying that he is the giver of 5 kinds of liberation. I write the same below for you to read.

 

Krsna worships Lord SadaShiva in his previous incarnation as Rama who during 'Shri ShivRaghav samwad' says in the trayodashodhyayah(Shri PadmaPuran, Shiva Gita Chapter 13 Verse 2):

 

Bhagawankarunavishtahridaya tvam praseed me

Swarupam Lakshanam Mukteh Prabruhi PARMESHVARAH

 

Translation: Shri Rama says: O Lord - Ocean of Mercy! Be pleased and describe me the forms and characteristics of liberation.

 

 

Shiva Gita, Chapter 13, Verse 3:

Lord Shiva says to Ramachandra:

 

Salokyamapi SarupyamSashtarya Sayugyamevcha

Keivalyam cheti tam Viddhi Muktim Raghava Panchdha

 

Translation: The Lord says O Rama! salokya, Sarupya, Sashtarya, Sayugya and Keivalya - these are four kinds of Liberations.

 

Shiva Gita Chapter 13, Verse 4:

 

Ma Pujyati Nishkaamah Sarvadaa gyanvarjitah

sa me Lokam samaasaadhya bhukte bhoganyathepsitan

 

Translation: One who, is devoid of material desires and ignorance, and worships me in my idol form, in the end comes to my loka and gets Salokya mukti and enjoys various kinds of transcendental bliss and benefits.

 

Verse 5:

 

Gyatva Ma Pujayetdhyastu sarvakaamvivarjitah

mayaa smaanrupah sanmam loke mahiyate

 

One who nows my real form and devotionally worships me without any desires, gets the association of my form and all his desires are fulfilled and gets Sarupya mukti.

 

And similarly, he describes the other three ways of liberation to Ramachandra in the following 6th, 7th 8th and 9th verses, and that how one can achieve it by worshiping HIM - Shiva. In the 14th verse, Lord Shiva says:

 

Mam Swarupgyanen Yadaavidhya Pranashyati

Tadeik eva vartteiham manovaachamgocharah

 

Translation: When with the help of realized knowledge of my true form, ignorance is removed, then even above the sound and consciousness, only I exist!

 

First part of verse 15 Shiva says:

 

Sadeiv Parmanandah SvaPrakaash-shchidatmakah

Translation: I am the eternal Supreme Bliss, self lightened and eternal super-soul.

 

Another part of the same verse he says:

Madanyannasti Yatkinchittada Vartehamekalah

 

Translation: There is nothing in this universe except me, Only I alone exist!

 

In verse 37 chapter 13, Lord Shiva says to Rama:

 

Nitya Pathati Yo dhyayamimam Ram Shranoti va

Sa Muchyate Dehbandhaadnaayasen Raghava

 

Translation: O Ramachandra! One who studies and listens to this chapter everyday gets easily relieved from this material existence.

 

In the verses 26 and 27 of chapter 14, Lord Shiva explains to Rama the relationship of this soul with the sense organs and body saying:

 

Kshetragyam Rathinam Shariram Rathmev tu

Vraddhim tu Saarathim Viddhi Pragrah tu Manastatha (verse: 26)

 

Explaining the body to be the chariot, sense organs as the horse in the chariot, mind the charioteer, consciousness the reins and the soul to be the passenger.

 

Indriyani Hayanvidhi Vishayansteshu Gocharaan

Indriyeirmanasa yuktam bhoktaram viddhi Purusham (verse: 27)

 

That the pure soul when is driven by the ill-controlled senses seems to suffer.

(I'm not giving the exact translation of this verse, but just the hint)

 

Deivi Hyosha Gunamayi mam maya duratyaya (second line verse 34)

It is very very difficult to get over my 'trigunatmak' maya.

 

 

Mamev ye prapadhyante mayametam taranti te (Verse 35)

 

Translation: Those who realize by surrendering to me, only get over this bondage of maya.

 

In Verse 38 chapter 14, Lord Shiva says to Rama:

 

Nanayonishu Jatasya Dehino Yasya Kasyachit

Kotijanmaarjiteh Punyeirmyi bhaktih Prajayate

 

Translation: Having gone through different types of births in different yonis, one out having collecting the good deeds or 'Punyas' of a million births, develop my bhakti.

 

And then in Verse 39, Lord Shiva says further:

 

Sa ev labhate gyanam madbhaktah Shraddhyanvitah

Nanyakarmani Kurvano janmakotishtairapi

 

Only a bhakta truly devoted to me receives the 'gyana' and the other in-spite of doing various karmas for millions of lives do not reach me.

 

In the chapter 14, verse no. 40 of Shiv Gita, Lord Shiva says to Rama (Krsna in previous incarnation):

 

Tatah Sarva Parityajya madbhaktim samudahar

sarvadharmanparityajya mamekamSharanam Vraj

Aham tvaam Sarvpaapebhyo Mokshayishyami ma shuchah

 

Translation: Due to this reason, O Rama! Leave everything else and be devoted to me. Leave all other Dharmas and seek my refuge. I will free you from all your sins and liberate you. Do not think much now.

 

 

So, dear bhakta, what else can I say after this last verse?

Of course, I can go on answering all your statements, questions, pretentions etc. I have the answers. I can still answer all the above said issues by you, including your laughter. But I don't think we are gaining anything here. As I made it clear before, my agenda is not to prove a superiority issue here. Nor it is to satissfy my ego by belittling Krsna bhaktas. And it is definitely not an agenda to fight. You wrongfully believed that I may be jealouse of Krsna and his bhaktas - I really expected you to be wiser than that. You come to compete, I don't, so how can I be jealous? I do not want to come and compete with Krsna or his bhaktas. That would be foolish! Wouldn't it? What's the illusion about?

 

Infact, I felt that I am wasting my energy in this useless argument with you. Energy that I would have otherwise utilized in my sadhna. Nor do I desire to gather a crowd of people or followers around me.

 

Again, I confirm my respect for Prabhupada for what he did. And I consider Lord Krsna as Bhagawan. There is no argument on this issue and this is not even an issue.

The only reason I came here is to stop the belitlling of Lord Shiva and some understanding on him apart from what you preach about him. But if you would still prefer to do that, then it is your prerogative. I can control only my actions.

Frankly speaking, we are not at a level, where we can decide and reveal to ourselves the true identity of the Lord. Arjuna couldn't. Only HE can. Maybe you are able to do that. But I would prefer to stick to my sadhna for now.

 

Wish you well in your endeavor!!

 

An ordinary Shiva bhakta,

Om Namah Shivaya!!

 

 

 

 

 

[harshad]

First of all, let it be clarified that Krsna is not a "previous incarnation" of Rama. When it comes to the spiritual world, there is no value of material time. So, materially Lord Krsna may have appeared after Lord Ramacandra, yet the original Personality of Godhead is Krsna.

 

You have quoted from Sri Padma Purana wherein Lord Siva says that he gives five types of Liberations.

 

But the devotees of Lord Krsna are not interested in going back to Siva Loka. Read the following verse :

 

goloka-nämni nija-dhämni tale ca tasya

devi-mahesa-hari-dhämasu tesu tesu

te te prabhäva-nicayä vihitäs ca yena

govindam ädi-purusam tam aham bhajämi (Brahma Samhita verse 5.43)

 

Translation : Lowest of all is located Devi-dhäma [mundane world], next above it is Mahesa-dhäma [abode of Mahesa]; above Mahesa-dhäma is placed Hari-dhäma [abode of Hari] and above them all is located Krsna's own realm named Goloka. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who has allotted their respective authorities to the rulers of those graded realms.

 

So, Lord Siva's abode is just above the material world. That is why sometimes, Lord Siva is considered as neither belonging to the material nor to the spiritual world. My question to you was, "Can worship of Lord Siva give a person the Love of Krsna ?" . And the verses you stated clearly prove that a devotee of Lord Siva goes back to Sivaloka. We dont want to go back to sivaloka. We Hare Krsnas want to go back to Goloka.

 

Also, the Brhan-Naradiya Purana clearly states :

 

harer näma harer näma

harer nämaiva kevalam

kalau nästy eva nästy eva

nästy eva gatir anyathä

 

Translation : In this age of Kali, no one can perform all the ritualistic ceremonies for becoming liberated; that is extremely difficult. Therefore all the sästras and all the äcäryas have recommended that in this age one chant the holy name. (185.180, Krishna Janma Khanda, Brhad Naradiya Purana)

 

So, the process of achieving liberation is very difficult in Kali yuga (as indicated by the sloka above), and therefore there are not many Siva Bhaktas as there are Krsna Bhaktas. Kali Yuga means chanting Hari Nam. If you choose any other path, then you are violating this injunction.

 

Also, I am quoting from the Padma Purana :

 

ärädhanänäm sarvesäm

visnor ärädhanam param

tasmät paratarah devi

tadiyänäm samarcanam

 

Translation : “[Lord Siva told the goddess Durgä:] ‘My dear Devi, although the Vedas recommend worship of demigods, the worship of Lord Visnu is topmost. However, above the worship of Lord Visnu is the rendering of service to Vaisnavas, who are related to Lord Visnu.’"

 

And from more puranas,

 

yas tu näräyanam devam

brahma-rudrädi-daivataih

samatvenaiva vikseta

sa päsandi bhaved dhruvam (Padma Purana)

 

Translation : “‘A person who considers demigods like Brahmä and Siva to be on an equal level with Näräyana is to be considered an offender, or päsandi.’”

 

mäyävädam asac-chästram

pracchannam bauddham ucyate

mayaiva vihitam devi

kalau brähmana-mürtinä (Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda 25.7)

 

Translation : “[Lord Siva informed goddess Durgä, the superintendent of the material world:] ‘In the Age of Kali I take the form of a brähmana and explain the Vedas through false scriptures in an atheistic way, similar to Buddhist philosophy.’”

 

This above sloka is the prediction of Sankaracarya, the propogator of the Mayavada philosophy.

 

Lord Krsna gives 5 types of Liberations and four of them are based in the spiritual world. they are särüpya (equal bodily feature), sälokya (equal facility to live on the same planet with the Lord), särsti (equal possession of opulence like the Lord), and sämipya (equal association with the Lord). The fifth kind of liberation is sayujya (merging with the effulgence of the lord), which the vaishnavas never accept. It is also understood from the sastras that the power to give liberation to living entities is given to Siva by Krsna. Otherwise, great devotees of Siva like Ravana and Vrkasura would have attained Siva Loka.But that is not the case. Lord Siva cannot give liberation to a devotee who is inimical to Lord Krsna, and this shows the dependence of Siva on Krsna. Of course, Lord Siva is honoured in the Vaishnava sampradaya as nobody else ("Vaishnavanam Yatha Shambhu" - which means "Amongst all the Vaishnavas, there is nobody like Shambhu or Lord Siva)... But let the difference be clear. Lord Siva is a devotee of Krsna.

 

Hare Krsna.

[Guest guest]

What a waste of my politeness.

Well, you got it all mixed up Harshad. Did I say Krisna is a previous incarnation of Rama? It is the other way round. But never mind.

 

You asked for sanskrit quotes and I provided you with that. You want to go to Krsna Loka or hell, is your business.

Wanting to go to Krsna loka and actually going there are two different things!!

 

Whether Shiva is a Krsna bhakta or not is not for me to decide. You guys are running the God business and making money from it, so you decide. I am likely getting out of this fool's discussion with a very bitter taste. The reason - you have proved only one thing here - Sheer arrogance and inflated false ego that has come from some little bit of book reading. I thought, you are Vaishnava, but you failed to display any Vaishnava quality. Not even one! Love, compassion or devotion. IF you show arrogance, you get that in return. I tried to be loving towards you, but you responded in arrogance anyway.

Your definitions of abuse are void!

Your question was not "can Shiva give you love of Krsna", it was "show me the sanskrit quotes where Shiva says that he can give five kinds of Mukti and I showed you the quotes. Now you are changing your tactics upon seeing the quotes, because you have nothing to ssay to them. In return all you are capable of doing is copy - paste another quote from Bhagwatam or Gita with Prabhupad's translation. And flame out your fire of so called bhakti.

Continues abuse of Shiva's name is not going to get you a Krsna Loka ticket.

I never abused Krsna and humbly accept him as bhagwan. What's your problem?

A such you never answered anything on Lord Krsna's quotes before.

Shiva says "there is nothing separate from me. I'm the Supreme Lord"!

Why do I have to hear anything after this?

 

Shivohi Kevalam

[harshad]

Sorry, but I dont want to be called a pasandi by equating Lord Siva and Lord Krsna.I never asked you about liberation to Siva Loka. Liberation means to go back to Godhead, either Vaikuntha or Goloka.

 

You say : I thought, you are Vaishnava, but you failed to display any Vaishnava quality. Not even one! Love, compassion or devotion. IF you show arrogance, you get that in return. I tried to be loving towards you, but you responded in arrogance anyway.

 

And I reply : I am sorry, but in your previous posts, you yourself made statements like "i dont believe in Caitanya's God positioning" , "This God positioning is ISKCON agenda" etc. etc. So, does such a behaviour fit a shaiva ???

 

I am only saying that Lord Siva is the best vaishnava. If that is so hard to digest, I cannot do anything.

 

The Brahma-samhita (5.45) states:

ksiram yathä dadhi vikära-visesa-yogät

sanjäyate na hi tatah prthag asti hetoh

yah sambhutäm api tathä samupaiti käryäd

govindam ädi-purusam tam aham bhajämi

 

Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.

 

In the other Puränas and Agamas, Lord Siva's supreme status has been unequivocally declared. The Srimad-Bhägavatam (1.2.23) states that Lord Hari alone is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the sole purpose of creation, maintenance, and annihilation of this universe. He enters into the three material modes of goodness, passion, and ignorance, and then expands as Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, and Lord Visnu, respectively, to carry out such work as the creation. This statement confirms that Lord Brahma is the Supreme Controller, although at the same time it must be understood that this is so because he has been empowered by the Supreme Lord, Visnu. The Brahma-samhita (5.49) confirms this:

 

bhäsvän yathäsma-sakalesu nijesu tejah

sviyam kiyat prakatayaty api tadvad atra

brahmä ya esa jagad-anda-vidhäna-kartä

govindam ädi-purusam tam ahaà bhajämi

 

I adore the primeval Lord Govinda from whom the separated subjective portion Brahma receives his power for the regulation of the mundane world, just as the sun manifests some portion of his own light in all the effulgent gems that bear the names of sürya-känta, etc.

 

.... The scriptures also state that if a person, after considering all these facts, adamantly equates Lord Visnu with demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, and so on he is condemned as an atheist and an offender. The basis of this scriptural injunction lies in the fact that while Lord Brahma is generally an empowered jiva, Lord Siva at times is also an empowered jiva. Persons who have not researched deeply 'into this subject matter end up forming their own speculative ideas. They make such comments as, “Lord Visnu is God and not Lord Siva”, or “Lord Siva is the Supreme, not Lord Visnu.” They continue to say, 'We are undeviating devotees of Lord Visnu; we do not care for Lord Siva”, and vice versa. Hence their inclination to polemics leads them to commit offences. (As written by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur)

 

So, if you believe that we are committing offenses by calling Lord Siva the greatest devotee of Krsna, then please rethink again.

 

And also, please rethink over these statements of yours, which are like showers of nectar upon me :

 

1) You want to go to Krsna Loka or hell, is your business.

 

2) I am likely getting out of this fool's discussion with a very bitter taste. The reason - you have proved only one thing here - Sheer arrogance and inflated false ego that has come from some little bit of book reading.

 

3) You guys are running the God business and making money from it, so you decide.

 

4) Continues abuse of Shiva's name is not going to get you a Krsna Loka ticket.

 

My Answer : ( NOTE THAT I HAVE NOT ABUSED LORD SIVA ANYWHERE, STILL YOU MAKE SUCH STATEMENTS. I HAVE ONLY SAID THAT THOSE WHO DECRY LORD SIVA, OR UNNECESSARILY PUT SIVA OVER KRSNA, ARE PASANDIS (ATHIESTS))

 

5) Shiva says "there is nothing separate from me. I'm the Supreme Lord"! Why do I have to hear anything after this?

 

My Answer : There are many personalities of Godhead, like Siva, Narayana etc. But amongst all the personalities of Godhead, Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So that is what you need to listen after hearing that Siva is a personality of Godhead.

 

Sure you answered from the Padma Purana that Siva gives liberation of five types, but Siva cannot give liberation to Goloka, and that is what we Hare Krsnas are looking for. When I asked you whether Siva can send you back home, I meant Goloka Vrindavana, not Sivaloka. I dont want to go to Sivaloka. I want to go to Goloka. I am simply saying that if you want to go to Sivaloka, then best of luck. I have given you sufficient scriptural arguments that chanting Hari naam is the easiest way out of this world, yet if you want to follow the difficult way, then best of luck in your sojourn.

 

Hare Krsna..