Proofs for incorporeal God

[Guest guest]

OMshanti. Sometime back the learned guests on this forum had asked for proof about incorporeal God. I do not know why the topic of "God of Gita/ Gita ka Bhagwaan" has been locked. Given below is the transliteration of the shlokas from Bhagwad Gita which point towards the incorporeal God. Since I do not have the english version of the Bhagwad Gita I am producing the transcription of the shlokas and their meanings given in Hindi from the book which I have referred to as it is. If anyone can produce the english version of the same from any book, it would be nice.

1. Maya tatmidam sarva jagadvyaktamoortina.

Matsthani sarvabhootaani na chaaham teshvavasthitah. (Chapter 9, shloka 4)

(Arth - mujh niraakaar Parmatma say yah sab jagat paripoorna hai aur sab bhoot merey antargat sankalpa kay aadhaar sthit hain kintu vaastav may mai unmay sthit nahi hoon.

 

2.Yo maamjamanaadim cha vetti lokamaheshwaram.

Asammoodhah sa martyeshu sarvapapaih pramuchyatey. (Chapter 10, shloka 3)

(Arth - jo mujhko ajanma arthaat vaastav may janmarahit anaadi aur lokon ka mahaan eeshwar tatwa say jaanta hai vah manushyon may gyaanwaan purush sab paapon say mukta ho jaata hai.

3. Sarvendriyagunaabhaasam sarvendriyavivarjitam.

Asaktam sarvabhrichhaiv nirgunam gunbhoktrum ch. (Chapter 13, shloka 14)

(Arth - sampoorna indriyon ke vishayon ko jaan-ney vaala hai (parantu vaastav may) sab indriyon say rahit hai tatha aasakti rahit (honay par) bhi sabka dhaaran-poshan karney vaala aur nirgun honay par (bhi) gunon ko bhogney vaala hai.)

 

The first shloka itself talks about the incorporeal Supreme Soul and it also says that unlike the popular belief God is not omnipresent, i.e. He is not present in the non-living matter.

 

The second shloka talks about God being beyond the cycle of birth and death (ajanma).

 

The third shloka says that although he has the knowledge of all the pleasures of all the organs, He does not possess any bodily organs.

 

This clearly proves that God is incorporeal. He does enter into human body, but he remains detached and unaffected from the physical pleasures.

 

With regards,

ON Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari,

Prajapita Brahmakumar

 

[sumedh]

Dear roohani sevadhari

 

Good you tried to find the proof in the scriptures. Let us see the verses presented.

 

Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 9.4

 

maya tatam idam sarvam

jagad avyakta-murtina

mat-sthani sarva-bhutani

na caham teshv avasthitah

 

SYNONYMS

maya -- by Me; tatam -- pervaded; idam -- this; sarvam -- all; jagat -- cosmic manifestation; avyakta-murtina -- by the unmanifested form; mat-sthani -- in Me; sarva-bhutani -- all living entities; na -- not; ca -- also; aham -- I; teshu -- in them; avasthitah -- situated.

 

TRANSLATION

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

 

 

 

The words used here are "avyakta murtina" which means unmanifested Form. The word "murtina" is significant here for it means Form and unmanifested ("avyakta") means that people cannot normally see it. So we do not find "niraakaar" anywhere here which you have put in the translation; on the contrary God clearly says that He has a Form which normally people cannot see, i.e. even in His lila-avataars the normal people cannot see His true Form only a material projection. This is explained clearly by the Lord just a few verses afterwards here:

 

Srimad-Bhagavad Gita 9.11

 

avajananti mam mudha

manushim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-mahesvaram

 

SYNONYMS

avajananti -- deride; mam -- Me; mudhah -- foolish men; manushim -- in a human form; tanum -- a body; asritam -- assuming; param -- transcendental; bhavam -- nature; ajanantah -- not knowing; mama -- My; bhuta -- of everything that be; maha-isvaram -- the supreme proprietor.

 

TRANSLATION

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be.

 

 

 

you said:

 

The first shloka itself talks about the incorporeal Supreme Soul and it also says that unlike the popular belief God is not omnipresent, i.e. He is not present in the non-living matter.

 

 

 

The first part has been shown to be incorrect. The second part is also incorrect because the Lord says in the sloka that the entire world is pervaded by Him which incidently is also there is your translation ("sab jagat paripoorna hai"). So He is Omnipresent in His Brahmn feature which is the brahmajyoti emanating from Him (brahmano hi pratishthaham -- BG 14.27). But then He also says "na caham teshv avasthitah" in which Krishna actually affirms that although He pervades the universe, He is distinct from it refuting the theory that God is impersonally distributed -- rather "He is not in them". This is elaborated in just the next verse:

 

Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 9.5

 

na ca mat-sthani bhutani

pasya me yogam aisvaram

bhuta-bhrin na ca bhuta-stho

mamatma bhuta-bhavanah

 

SYNONYMS

na -- never; ca -- also; mat-sthani -- situated in Me; bhutani -- all creation; pasya -- just see; me -- My; yogam aisvaram -- inconceivable mystic power; bhuta-bhrit -- the maintainer of all living entities; na -- never; ca -- also; bhuta-sthah -- in the cosmic manifestation; mama -- My; atma -- Self; bhuta-bhavanah -- the source of all manifestations.

 

TRANSLATION

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer of all living entities and although I am everywhere, I am not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the very source of creation.

 

 

 

 

Let us see the second verse that you presented.

 

Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 10.3

 

yo mam ajam anadim ca

vetti loka-mahesvaram

asammudhah sa martyeshu

sarva-papaih pramucyate

 

SYNONYMS

yah -- anyone who; mam -- Me; ajam -- unborn; anadim -- without beginning; ca -- also; vetti -- knows; loka -- of the planets; maha-isvaram -- the supreme master; asammudhah -- undeluded; sah -- he; martyeshu -- among those subject to death; sarva-papaih -- from all sinful reactions; pramucyate -- is delivered.

 

TRANSLATION

He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds -- he only, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins.

 

 

 

Here the Lord affirms that He is unborn. This is confirmed in all the Vedic scriptures. The Srimad-Bhagavatam describes the birth of Krishna:

 

From Srimad-Bhagavatam

 

10.3.9-10

tam adbhutam balakam ambujekshanam

catur-bhujam sankha-gadady-udayudham

srivatsa-lakshmam gala-sobhi-kaustubham

pitambaram sandra-payoda-saubhagam

maharha-vaidurya-kirita-kundala-

tvisha parishvakta-sahasra-kuntalam

uddama-kancy-angada-kankanadibhir

virocamanam vasudeva aikshata

 

Vasudeva then saw the newborn child, who had very wonderful lotuslike eyes and who bore in His four hands the four weapons sankha, cakra, gada and padma. On His chest was the mark of Srivatsa and on His neck the brilliant Kaustubha gem. Dressed in yellow, His body blackish like a dense cloud, His scattered hair fully grown, and His helmet and earrings sparkling uncommonly with the valuable gem Vaidurya, the child, decorated with a brilliant belt, armlets, bangles and other ornaments, appeared very wonderful.

 

...

 

10.3.14

sa eva svaprakrityedam

srishtvagre tri-gunatmakam

tad anu tvam hy apravishtah

pravishta iva bhavyase

 

My Lord, You are the same person who in the beginning created this material world by His personal external energy. After the creation of this world of three gunas [sattva, rajas and tamas], You appear to have entered it, although in fact You have not.

 

 

 

So the Supreme Lord was not born rather appeared in His own Form. But then Mother Devaki requested:

 

10.3.30

upasamhara visvatmann

ado rupam alaukikam

sankha-cakra-gada-padma-

sriya jushtam catur-bhujam

 

O my Lord, You are the all-pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Your transcendental four-armed form, holding conchshell, disc, club and lotus, is unnatural for this world. Please withdraw this form [and become just like a natural human child so that I may try to hide You somewhere].

 

 

10.3.31

visvam yad etat sva-tanau nisante

yathavakasam purushah paro bhavan

bibharti so 'yam mama garbhago 'bhud

aho nri-lokasya vidambanam hi tat

 

At the time of devastation, the entire cosmos, containing all created moving and nonmoving entities, enters Your transcendental body and is held there without difficulty. But now this transcendental form has taken birth from my womb. People will not be able to believe this, and I shall become an object of ridicule.

 

 

10.3.46

sri-suka uvaca

ity uktvasid dharis tushnim

bhagavan atma-mayaya

pitroh sampasyatoh sadyo

babhuva prakritah sisuh

 

Sukadeva Gosvami said: After thus instructing His father and mother, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, remained silent. In their presence, by His internal energy, He then transformed Himself into a small human child.

 

 

 

So the Lord then appeared as a new born child.

 

 

 

Then the last one:

 

 

sarvendriya-gunabhasam

sarvendriya-vivarjitam

asaktam sarva-bhric caiva

nirgunam guna-bhoktri ca

 

SYNONYMS

sarva -- of all; indriya -- senses; guna -- of the qualities; abhasam -- the original source; sarva -- all; indriya -- senses; vivarjitam -- being without; asaktam -- without attachment; sarva-bhrit -- the maintainer of everyone; ca -- also; eva -- certainly; nirgunam -- without material qualities; guna-bhoktri -- master of the gunas; ca -- also.

 

TRANSLATION

The Supersoul is the original source of all senses, yet He is without senses. He is unattached, although He is the maintainer of all living beings. He transcends the modes of nature, and at the same time He is the master of all the modes of material nature.

 

 

 

The word "nirguna" means without "guna" or meaning without material qualities. Thus the Lord says that He is the SuperSoul (BG 10.20 -- I am the SuperSoul ...) without the material senses, and so is "nirguna". This is clear from the previous verse which gives the context of this quote and provides the complete explanation:

 

sarvatah pani-padam tat

sarvato 'kshi-siro-mukham

sarvatah srutimal loke

sarvam avritya tishthati

 

SYNONYMS

sarvatah -- everywhere; pani -- hands; padam -- legs; tat -- that; sarvatah -- everywhere; akshi -- eyes; sirah -- heads; mukham -- faces; sarvatah -- everywhere; sruti-mat -- having ears; loke -- in the world; sarvam -- everything; avritya -- covering; tishthati -- exists.

 

TRANSLATION

Everywhere are His hands and legs, His eyes, heads and faces, and He has ears everywhere. In this way the Supersoul exists, pervading everything.

 

 

 

So reading both verses makes it plain the meaning.

Elsewhere the Lord says:

 

Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 7.24

 

avyaktam vyaktim apannam

manyante mam abuddhayah

param bhavam ajananto

mamavyayam anuttamam

 

SYNONYMS

avyaktam -- nonmanifested; vyaktim -- personality; apannam -- achieved; manyante -- think; mam -- Me; abuddhayah -- less intelligent persons; param -- supreme; bhavam -- existence; ajanantah -- without knowing; mama -- My; avyayam -- imperishable; anuttamam -- the finest.

 

TRANSLATION

Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This is proof that bramma kumaris have incomplete understanding from fake teacher.

 

 

The first shloka itself talks about the incorporeal Supreme Soul and it also says that unlike the popular belief God is not omnipresent, i.e. He is not present in the non-living matter.

 

 

maya tatam idam sarvam

jagad avyakta-murtina

mat-sthani sarva-bhutani

na caham tesv avasthitah

 

SYNONYMS

maya--by Me; tatam--spread; idam--all these manifestations; sarvam--all; jagat--cosmic manifestation; avyakta-murtina--unmanifested form; mat-sthani--Me as support; sarva-bhutani--all living entities; na--not; ca--also; aham--I; tesu--in them; avasthitah--situated.

 

This entire universe is pervaded by Me in the unmanifest form. All beings depend on (or remain in) Me, but I do not depend on them.

 

Where does Lord Krishna say as you claim ?

 

 

The second shloka talks about God being beyond the cycle of birth and death (ajanma).

 

 

yo mam ajam anadim ca

vetti loka-mahesvaram

asammudhah sa martyesu

sarva-papaih pramucyate

 

SYNONYMS

yah--anyone who; mam--unto Me; ajam--unborn; anadim--without beginning; ca--also; vetti--knows; loka--the planets; maha-isvaram--the supreme master; asammudhah--without doubt; sah--he; martyesu--among those subject to death; sarva-papaih--from all sinful reactions; pramucyate--is delivered.

 

One who knows Me as the unborn, the beginningless, and the Supreme Lord of the universe, is considered wise among the mortals, and gets liberation from the bondage of Karma.(10.03)

 

Read the verse clearly Roohani. This is spoken by Lord Krishna.

 

This same Krishna(Devaki putra) says that HE takes avataras as per HIS statements.

 

yada yada hi dharmasya

glanir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya

tadatmanam srjamy aham

 

SYNONYMS

yada--whenever; yada--wherever; hi--certainly; dharmasya--of religion; glanih--discrepancies; bhavati--manifested, becomes; bharata--O descendant of Bharata; abhyutthanam--predominance; adharmasya--of irreligion; tada--at that time; atmanam--self; srjami--manifest; aham--I.

 

Whenever there is a decline of Dharma and the rise of Adharma, O Arjuna, then I manifest Myself.

 

paritranaya sadhunam

vinasaya ca duskrtam

dharma-samsthapanarthaya

sambhavami yuge yuge

 

SYNONYMS

paritranaya--for the deliverance; sadhunam--of the devotees; vinasaya--for the annihilation; ca--also; duskrtam--of the miscreants; dharma--principles of religion; samsthapana-arthaya--to reestablish; sambhavami--I do appear; yuge--millennium; yuge--after millennium.

 

I appear from time to time for protecting the good, for annihilating the wicked, and for establishing Dharma, the world order.

 

This is clear proof that Bhagavan Krishna has no material body. The speaker of this verse is clearly Devaki putra Krishna and not any other being, as it is known from the context. Read the following verses which is the context.

 

arjuna uvaca

aparam bhavato janma

param janma vivasvatah

katham etad vijaniyam

tvam adau proktavan iti

 

SYNONYMS

arjunah uvaca--Arjuna said; aparam--junior; bhavatah--Your; janma--birth; param--superior; janma--birth; vivasvatah--of the sun-god; katham--how; etat--this; vijaniyam--shall I understand; tvam--You; adau--in the beginning; proktavan--instructed; iti--thus.

 

Arjuna said: You were born later, but Vivasvaan was born in ancient time. How am I to understand that You taught this yoga in the beginning (of the creation)? (4.04)

 

----------------

 

Then Devaki putra Krishna answers.

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

bahuni me vyatitani

janmani tava carjuna

tany aham veda sarvani

na tvam vettha parantapa

 

SYNONYMS

sri-bhagavan uvaca--the Personality of Godhead said; bahuni--many; me--of Mine; vyatitani--have passed; janmani--births; tava--of yours; ca--and also; arjuna--O Arjuna; tani--all those; aham--I; veda--do know; sarvani--all; na--not; tvam--yourself; vettha--know; parantapa--O subduer of the enemy.

 

The Supreme Lord said: Both you and I have taken many births. I remember them all, O Arjuna, but you do not remember. (4.05)

 

Here Devaki Putra Krishna clearly says HE takes avataras or manifests HIMSELF.

 

 

The third shloka says that although he has the knowledge of all the pleasures of all the organs, He does not possess any bodily organs.

 

 

sarvendriya-gunabhasam

sarvendriya-vivarjitam

asaktam sarva-bhrc caiva

nirgunam guna-bhoktr ca

 

SYNONYMS

sarva--all; indriya--senses; guna--qualities; abhasam--original source; sarva--all; indriya--senses; vivarjitam--being without; asaktam--without attachment; sarva-bhrt--maintainer of everyone; ca--also; eva--certainly; nirgunam--without material qualities; guna-bhoktr--simultaneously master of the gunas; ca--also.

 

He is the perceiver of all sense objects without the senses; unattached, yet the sustainer of all; devoid of the Gunas, yet the enjoyer of the Gunas.

 

This verse simply says Krishna does not have a material body, not that HE has no form. This is clear from previous verse.

 

sarvatah pani-padam tat

sarvato 'ksi-siro-mukham

sarvatah srutimal loke

sarvam avrtya tisthati

 

SYNONYMS

sarvatah--everywhere; pani--hands; padam--legs; tat--that; sarvatah--everywhere; aksi--eyes; sirah--head; mukham--face; sarvatah--everywhere; sruti-mat--hearing; loke--in the world; sarvam--everything; avrtya--covering; tisthati--exists.

 

Having hands and feet everywhere; having eyes, head, and face everywhere; having ears everywhere; the creator exists in the creation by pervading everything.(13.13)

 

This verse clearly explains that GOD has innumerable, unlimited number of transcendental forms.

 

Who is this GOD described here ? Devaki putra Krishna says that this GOD is ME(Krishna) in the following verse.

 

iti ksetram tatha jnanam

jneyam coktam samasatah

mad-bhakta etad vijnaya

mad-bhavayopapadyate

 

SYNONYMS

iti--thus; ksetram--the field of activities (the body); tatha--also; jnanam--knowledge; jneyam--the knowable; ca--also; uktam--described; samasatah--in summary; mat-bhaktah--My devotee; etat--all this; vijnaya--after understanding; mat-bhavaya--My nature; upapadyate--attains.

 

Thus the creation(body) as well as the knowledge and the object of knowledge have been briefly described. Understanding this, My devotee attains Me. (13.18)

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Learned Sumedh ji wrote:

---------------------------The words used here are "avyakta murtina" which means unmanifested Form. The word "murtina" is significant here for it means Form and unmanifested ("avyakta") means that people cannot normally see it. So we do not find "niraakaar" anywhere here which you have put in the translation; on the contrary God clearly says that He has a Form which normally people cannot see, i.e. even in His lila-avataars the normal people cannot see His true Form only a material projection.

---------------------------

 

God says Avyakta means that He is incorporeal (nirakaar), who cannot be seen through the mortal eyes. But Avyakta Murtina means that even when He enters into a human body (an ordinary one, as you have quoted from Gita) He remains in an Avyakta stage, i.e. incorporeal stage. He does not become attached to the body, bodily relationships or the materials of this world.

 

Not just the Supreme Soul but even the souls experience that avyakta or incorporeal stage numberwise. All the relgious fathers also do not take birth through the mother's womb in their first birth in this world. They enter into other human body just like the Supreme soul enters into another body. For e.g. the soul of Mahatma Buddha enters into the grown up body of Prince Siddhartha to established Buddhism. The atrocities that the religious fathers had to tolerate are actually experienced by the soul in whose body the soul of the religious father enters and not the soul that comes from the soul world. The souls of the religious fathers (like Mahatma Buddha, Christ, Abraham etc.) who enter into the body of others to establish their religion always experience the incorporeal stage in the first birth and that incorporeal stage is shown in the form of semi closed eyes in a meditative stage as well as a hallow around the head. In the Hindu pantheon, only the deity Shankar is shown to be in such an incorporeal stage. So at the end of Kaliyug, the Supreme Soul Shiva enters into the body of the soul playing the role of Shankar in this world to liberate all the souls from vices and to open the gateway to heaven through the mothers and spinsters. The whole world will recognize the God in an incorpreal stage and also experience that incorporeal stage themselves.

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani Sevadari.

 

[sumedh]

whatever you want to. But if you make noise that you are following the scriptures, or that the historical evidence or logic supports the theory then the brahmakumars should be ready to be exposed as frauds. So be honest and just say "we have our own philosophy which is not from the scriptures nor supported by historical evidence". The interesting thing is that not even one tenet of your philosophy finds support in the scriptures -- really quite an achievement.

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Sumedh,

Omshanti. On the one side you have written that "One who knows Me as the unborn, the beginningless, and the Supreme Lord of the universe, is considered wise among the mortals, and gets liberation from the bondage of Karma.(10.03)" and on the other side you have written that "The Supreme Lord said: Both you and I have taken many births. I remember them all, O Arjuna, but you do not remember. (4.05)".

How can the one who has taken many births (i.e. Shri Krishna) be called as unborn or beginningless?

 

It is only due to this contradiction that the whole world does not accept Gita as the version of God. If we project Gita as the words of incorporeal God spoken by entering into a human chariot (and not a material chariot of horses) then souls of all the religions would readily accept Gita as the versions of God.

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari

Prajapita Brahmakumar

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

sarvatah pani-padam tat

sarvato 'ksi-siro-mukham

sarvatah srutimal loke

sarvam avrtya tisthati

 

SYNONYMS

sarvatah--everywhere; pani--hands; padam--legs; tat--that; sarvatah--everywhere; aksi--eyes; sirah--head; mukham--face; sarvatah--everywhere; sruti-mat--hearing; loke--in the world; sarvam--everything; avrtya--covering; tisthati--exists.

 

Having hands and feet everywhere; having eyes, head, and face everywhere; having ears everywhere; the creator exists in the creation by pervading everything.(13.13)

---------------------------

 

Omshanti. When the smallest particle of matter i.e. atom consisiting of protons, neutrons and electrons cannot be divided further, then how can the indestructible supreme soul have innumerable transcendental forms? The above verse of Gita means that even though God is incorporeal, He can see everyone, hear everyone, know everyone.

 

sarvam avrtya tisthati (sarvam--everything; avrtya--covering; tisthati--exists) Even as per the meanings of the individual words, God covers everything that exists in the world, i.e. He is greater than all the souls and matter that exists in the world. The above line does not mean that He pervades everyone. The interpretation of the line quoted by you, i.e. the creator exists in the creation by pervading everything does not tally with the meanings of the individual words of the line. The interpretation does not tally with the dwaita philosophy of atma and parmatma being different.

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari,

Prajapita Brahmakumar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna

 

Ambiguity is because you have been following bogus teachers. Anyway, i will not carry on this any further than for it is clear that you have an agenda rather than trying to understand scriptures.

 

How can the one who has taken many births (i.e. Shri Krishna) be called as unborn or beginningless?

 

 

 

Simply because His birth is for show only. If you would have read previous quotes then it would have been obvious.

From Srimad Bhagavatam 11.31.11

 

My dear King, you should understand that the Supreme Lord's appearance and disappearance, which resemble those of embodied conditioned souls, are actually a show enacted by His illusory energy, just like the performance of an actor. After creating this universe He enters into it, plays within it for some time, and at last winds it up. Then the Lord remains situated in His own transcendental glory, having ceased from the functions of cosmic manifestation.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here is a very nice article on the personal/impersonal issue.

 

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/god_is_both_%20personal_(Bhagavan)_and_impersonal_(Brahman).htm

 

If someone wants to educate himself, this is a very good site with a wealth of information.

 

http://www.stephen-knapp.com

 

There is no need to manufacture philosophy or Gods, the only thing one can depend on is bona-fide scriptures.

[Guest guest]

 

God says Avyakta means that He is incorporeal (nirakaar), who cannot be seen through the mortal eyes. But Avyakta Murtina means that even when He enters into a human body (an ordinary one, as you have quoted from Gita) He remains in an Avyakta stage, i.e. incorporeal stage. He does not become attached to the body, bodily relationships or the materials of this world.

 

 

Avyakta means "transcendental" or "unmanifest" or "beyong space, matter, time etc."

 

Murti means "form".

 

Avyakta Murtina means "transcendental form". Case closed.

 

The verse is very clear

 

maya tatam idam sarvam

jagad avyakta-murtina

 

SYNONYMS

maya--by Me; tatam--spread; idam--all these manifestations; sarvam--all; jagat--cosmic manifestation; avyakta-murtina--unmanifested form;

 

Translation:

 

All these (idam sarvam) is pervaded(tatam) by ME(maya), in MY Transcendental Form(Avyakta Murtina).

 

Ther verse clearly says all these living and non-living things of Universe is pervaded by MY Transcendental Form.

 

Ther verse does not say as you claim.

 

Rest is all bogus teachings from fake guy called fakeraj.

[Guest guest]

 

Omshanti. When the smallest particle of matter i.e. atom consisiting of protons, neutrons and electrons cannot be divided further, then how can the indestructible supreme soul have innumerable transcendental forms?

 

 

Now this is your speculation.

 

Bhagavaan has inneumerable, unlimited number of FORMS.

 

This, however, does not mean ONE FORM is different from OTHER FORM. Alll these FORMS are the SAME Bhagavaan.

 

There ia a verse regarding this is Vedas.

 

pUrNamadaH pUrNamidaM pUrNAt.h pUrNamudachyate |

pUrNasya pUrNamAdAya pUrNamevAvashishhyate ||

 

THAT(Mularupa of Bhagavaan) is complete and perfect. So is THIS(Avatara Rupa(s)). What comes out of COMPLETE and PERFECT(Mularupa) is also COMPLETE and PERFECT[Avatara Rupa]. When you take COMPLETE ALL from COMPLETE and PERFECT, still THAT(Mularupa) remains COMPLETE and PERFECT.

 

(Translation by K.T. Pandurangi)

 

The `mUlarUpa' of the Supreme God is infinite. The `avatArarUpa' is also infinite. At the time of Creation, the infinite `avatArarUpa' manifests from the infinite `mUlarUpa'. At the time of `praLaya', the infinite `mUlarUpa' takes back the infinite `avatArarUpa' and remains infinite.

 

 

sarvatah pani-padam tat

sarvato 'ksi-siro-mukham

sarvatah srutimal loke

sarvam avrtya tisthati

 

SYNONYMS

sarvatah--everywhere; pani--hands; padam--legs; tat--that; sarvatah--everywhere; aksi--eyes; sirah--head; mukham--face; sarvatah--everywhere; sruti-mat--hearing; loke--in the world; sarvam--everything; avrtya--covering; tisthati--exists.

 

Having hands and feet everywhere; having eyes, head, and face everywhere; having ears everywhere; the creator exists in the creation by pervading everything.(13.13)

 

The above verse of Gita means that even though God is incorporeal, He can see everyone, hear everyone, know everyone.

 

 

This is not right for two reasons given below.

 

1. Lord Krishna says that HE pervades Universe through HIS unmanifest FORM(avyakta murtina).

------------------------

maya tatam idam sarvam

jagad avyakta-murtina

 

SYNONYMS

maya--by Me; tatam--spread; idam--all these manifestations; sarvam--all; jagat--cosmic manifestation; avyakta-murtina--unmanifested form;

 

This entire universe is pervaded by Me in the unmanifest form.

-----------------------

 

2. While this verse(13:13) says explicitly HE has eyes, hands, face etc. everywhere, the next verse(13:14) says He has no ears and yet He hears, He has no eyes and yet HE sees etc.

 

It is unnecessary to say HE has eyes in one verse and say that HE has none in another, just to say that HE can see everything.

 

Both verses must be reconciled. The only correct explanation is that Bhagavaan HAS transcendental BODY with eyes, hands etc., with the most beautiful FORM.

 

 

sarvam avrtya tisthati (sarvam--everything; avrtya--covering; tisthati--exists) Even as per the meanings of the individual words, God covers everything that exists in the world, i.e. He is greater than all the souls and matter that exists in the world. The above line does not mean that He pervades everyone. The interpretation of the line quoted by you, i.e. the creator exists in the creation by pervading everything does not tally with the meanings of the individual words of the line. The interpretation does not tally with the dwaita philosophy of atma and parmatma being different.

 

 

Here, in this context, avrtya means "pervading".

 

This is clear from the verse begining with

 

Sarvatahpani.... srvato 'ksi-Ksiro-Mukham etc.

 

Note the verse also says with faces everywhere, with head everywhere in addition to other organs as eyes(seeing), ears etc.

 

Why do we have mention of different body parts(faces, heads etc.), in addition to sense organs like eyes, ears, etc.

 

It does not merely mean that Bhagavan can hear, see, everything. It also literally means HE is present everywhere.

 

Hence the verse finishes with

 

"sarvam avrtya tisthati" meaning

 

Covering(ie. pervading) everything HE exists.

[Guest guest]

 

The above verse of Gita means that even though God is incorporeal, He can see everyone, hear everyone, know everyone.

 

 

In addition read the verse itself repeating the word "Sarvatah" which means "everywhere".

 

Saravatah aksi means "Eyes everywhere"

 

and

 

Not just "seeing everywhere".

 

Similar is the meaning for other parts of body or sense organs.

 

Why does the verse mention body parts and sense organs and not just their functions ?

 

If you think about these things, in addition refer to purusha Sukta etc. you can see Bhagavan Krishna has innumerable, uncountable number of transcendental forms(Avyakta Murtina).

[Guest guest]

 

Omshanti. On the one side you have written that "One who knows Me as the unborn, the beginningless, and the Supreme Lord of the universe, is considered wise among the mortals, and gets liberation from the bondage of Karma.(10.03)" and on the other side you have written that "The Supreme Lord said: Both you and I have taken many births. I remember them all, O Arjuna, but you do not remember. (4.05)".

How can the one who has taken many births (i.e. Shri Krishna) be called as unborn or beginningless?

 

 

The confusion is there because you want to find mistakes and not learn Gita.

 

Verse 4.5 and 4.6 of Bhagavad Gita make it very very clear.

--------------------------

sri-bhagavan uvaca

bahuni me vyatitani

janmani tava carjuna

tany aham veda sarvani

na tvam vettha parantapa

 

SYNONYMS

sri-bhagavan uvaca--the Personality of Godhead said; bahuni--many; me--of Mine; vyatitani--have passed; janmani--births; tava--of yours; ca--and also; arjuna--O Arjuna; tani--all those; aham--I; veda--do know; sarvani--all; na--not; tvam--yourself; vettha--know; parantapa--O subduer of the enemy.

 

The Supreme Lord said: Both you and I have taken many births. I remember them all, O Arjuna, but you do not remember. (4.05)

 

ajo 'pi sann avyayatma

bhutanam isvaro 'pi san

prakrtim svam adhisthaya

sambhavamy atma-mayaya

 

SYNONYMS

ajah--unborn; api--although; san--being so; avyaya--without deterioration; atma--body; bhutanam--all those who are born; isvarah--the Supreme Lord; api--although; san--being so; prakrtim--transcendental form; svam--of Myself; adhisthaya--being so situated; sambhavami--I do incarnate; atma-mayaya--by My internal energy.

 

Though I am unborn, imperishable, and the Lord of all beings; yet I (voluntarily) manifest by controlling My own material nature using My Yoga-Maya. (See also 10.14) (4.06)

 

 

It is only due to this contradiction that the whole world does not accept Gita as the version of God. If we project Gita as the words of incorporeal God spoken by entering into a human chariot (and not a material chariot of horses) then souls of all the religions would readily accept Gita as the versions of God.

 

 

People do not accpet Gita because they do not want to.

 

Finding inconsistencies, when there is none, without studying Gita properly shows that people like yourself and bramma kumar(i)s are infact envious of what Krishna and HIS teachings.

 

Gita is for devotees of Krishna(Visnu), who are the only ones eleigible for Moksha. Others need not accept them.

 

Vaishnavas cannot change interpretation of Gita some non-devotees can accept. We are not running an election for Gita to be elected as scripture.

 

Gita is scripture because these are the words of Bhagavan Sri Krishna.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Omshanti. When the smallest particle of matter i.e. atom consisiting of protons, neutrons and electrons cannot be divided further, then how can the indestructible supreme soul have innumerable transcendental forms? The above verse of Gita means that even though God is incorporeal, He can see everyone, hear everyone, know everyone.

 

 

A Proton also has Paramatma in it. Krishna says He is the smallest OF THE small. Therefore taking Krishna statement we can see His legs and hands are present everywhere. So then how can God be Impersonal? Impossible.

[Guest guest]

How is his legs and hands present everywhere?

 

Did the vedas not have to come thru some medium to be spoken?

 

How would you have come to know the vedas?

 

[Guest guest]

 

How is his legs and hands present everywhere?

 

 

It means every part of HIS body is functional like any other part qaqnd yet HE HAS the most beautiful FORM as stated.

 

 

Did the vedas not have to come thru some medium to be spoken?

 

How would you have come to know the vedas?

 

 

The medium for us is Bhagavan Veda Vyasa, an AVATARA of Narayana(Krishna).

[Guest guest]

Omshanti. Shri Sumedh wrote:

--------------------------

 

Ambiguity is because you have been following bogus teachers. Anyway, i will not carry on this any further than for it is clear that you have an agenda rather than trying to understand scriptures.

 

--------------------------

 

How can we understand the true meaning of the scriptures until God Himself explains that to us. The proof for the fact that we could not understand the true meaning of the scriptures is that the world has been continuously degrading despite several scriptures including the sanskrit Gita being written by several human beings and several interpretations of the same by various other human beings. How can we say that all those who have interpreted Gita in different ways are true teachers when the world has been witnessing downfall continuously and quickly. The benefit or upliftment of the world is caused only when God himself comes and explains the true knowledge. But since he comes in an ordinary form, most of the people cannot recognize him and keep waiting for a miraculous and attractive form like Shri Krishna. If God comes in an attractive form like Shri Krishna and performs miracles like him the everyone would easily recognize him. Then how will the shloka of Gita prove relevant which says that God comes in an ordinary form and the ignorant people cannot recognize him?

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari,

Prajapita Brahmakumar.

 

[sumedh]

Dear roohani sevadhari

Hare Krishna

 

you said:

 

The proof for the fact that we could not understand the true meaning of the scriptures is that the world has been continuously degrading despite several scriptures including the sanskrit Gita being written by several human beings and several interpretations of the same by various other human beings. How can we say that all those who have interpreted Gita in different ways are true teachers when the world has been witnessing downfall continuously and quickly.

 

 

 

This proves that not many people have been following the acharyas which is a simple fact, rather bogus persons and philosophies. This phenomenon has expanded more and more in this century with everyone coming up with his/her own version of truth. Also is the fact that in such a chaotic situation the only succour was provided by the bhakti movement. The Katha Upanishad compares walking on the path of Truth to a razor's edge so it does not seem that many will actually travel that path.

 

 

But since he comes in an ordinary form, most of the people cannot recognize him and keep waiting for a miraculous and attractive form like Shri Krishna. If God comes in an attractive form like Shri Krishna and performs miracles like him the everyone would easily recognize him. Then how will the shloka of Gita prove relevant which says that God comes in an ordinary form and the ignorant people cannot recognize him?

 

 

 

Ask yourself as to why even after reading so many things about Sri Krishna you think Him to be ordinary. Actually Lord Krishna calls such persons "mudhah" or fools not just ordinary persons.

 

As for recognizing the Lord goes the Srimad-Bhagavatam is very unambiguous about the yuga-avataara of Kali-yuga where Karbhajana Muni describes the Yuga avataaras of each of the yugas to King Nimi.

From Srimad-Bhagavatam

 

11.5.31

iti dvapara urv-isa

stuvanti jagad-isvaram

nana-tantra-vidhanena

kalav api tatha srinu

 

TRANSLATION

 

O King, in this way people in Dvapara-yuga glorified the Lord of the universe. In Kali-yuga also people worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead by following various regulations of the revealed scriptures. Now kindly hear of this from me.

 

11.5.32

krishna-varnam tvishakrishnam

sangopangastra-parshadam

yajnaih sankirtana-prayair

yajanti hi su-medhasah

 

TRANSLATION

 

In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.

 

 

11.5.33

dhyeyam sada paribhava-ghnam abhishta-doham

tirthaspadam siva-virinci-nutam saranyam

bhrityarti-ham pranata-pala bhavabdhi-potam

vande maha-purusha te caranaravindam

 

TRANSLATION

 

My dear Lord, You are the Maha-purusha, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and I worship Your lotus feet, which are the only eternal object of meditation. Those feet destroy the embarrassing conditions of material life and freely award the greatest desire of the soul, the attainment of pure love of Godhead. My dear Lord, Your lotus feet are the shelter of all holy places and of all saintly authorities in the line of devotional service and are honored by powerful demigods like Lord Siva and Lord Brahma. My Lord, You are so kind that You willingly protect all those who simply bow down to You with respect, and thus You mercifully relieve all the distress of Your servants. In conclusion, my Lord, Your lotus feet are actually the suitable boat for crossing over the ocean of birth and death, and therefore even Lord Brahma and Lord Siva seek shelter at Your lotus feet."

 

11.5.34

tyaktva su-dustyaja-surepsita-rajya-lakshmim

dharmishtha arya-vacasa yad agad aranyam

maya-mrigam dayitayepsitam anvadhavad

vande maha-purusha te caranaravindam

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

O Maha-purusha, I worship Your lotus feet. You gave up the association of the goddess of fortune and all her opulence, which is most difficult to renounce and is hankered after by even the great demigods. Being the most faithful follower of the path of religion, You thus left for the forest in obedience to a brahmana's curse. Out of sheer mercifulness You chased after the fallen conditioned souls, who are always in pursuit of the false enjoyment of illusion, and at the same time engaged in searching out Your own desired object, Lord Syamasundara.

 

 

 

So now you should know that the yuga-dharma of Kali-yuga according to the scriptures is the congregational chanting of the Holy Names of Krishna.

[Guest guest]

OMshanti.

Shri Sumedh wrote:

--------------------------

This proves that not many people have been following the acharyas which is a simple fact, rather bogus persons and philosophies. This phenomenon has expanded more and more in this century with everyone coming up with his/her own version of truth.

--------------------------

 

How many acharyas and religious fathers are required to transform the world? Everyone has tried his might, but they have been able to transform only a limited number of souls. They created separate sects and divided the world. Creating more and more sects is like adding a drop of poison to a pond of milk. The whole milk becomes poison. Who will remove the poison and establish the ksheerkhand (the land of porridge)? Who will unite the world? Only the Supreme God Father can unite the world with a knowledge that is acceptable to the souls of all the religions and not just one religion. It is famous in the scriptures that when poison and nectar emerged from the churning of ocean by deities and demons, then everyone was eager to drink the nectar to become imperishable, but nobody wanted to drink the poison. It was only Shiv-Shankar bholeynath, who came forward to drink the poison and was thus called neelkanth. Although this is just a mythological story, the essence of the story is that no human being would like to take the vices of others and give virtues in return. It is only the selfless incorporeal Supreme God Father True Trimurty Shiva who enters into an ordinary body (Prajapita or Shankar) to accept the vices of all the mankind and give virtues, knowledge, mercy and power in return. That is why in the temples of Shiva, people offer odourless flowers, leaves, thorny fruits in worship, but seek all kinds of boons from Him.

With regards,

ON Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari,

Prajapita Brahmakumar

 

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Shri Sumedh wrote:

--------------------------

The Katha Upanishad compares walking on the path of Truth to a razor's edge so it does not seem that many will actually travel that path.

--------------------------

 

Indeed when God Himself comes on this Earth in an ordinary form then it is very hard to recognize him. The bodyconsciousness, the ego of being scholars, the ego of being pure, incomplete knowledge given by scriptures and gurus, the various customs and traditions comes in the way of recognizing the God Father.

Some know him, recognize him, accept him and follow him. They are the Pandavas, very few in number.

Some know him, recognize him, but do not follow him. They are the Kauravas.

Some neither recognize him nor follow him. They are the Yadavas.

The Kauravas and Yadavas are in majority in this iron-aged world.

For those who recognize him, it is like walking on a razor's edge, because the majority of the world tries to pull them towards themselves saying that He is not God, he is fake, but the Pandavas do not care for the abuses, insults and obstacles. They have God on their side. So they do not fear anyone. Nischaybuddhi vijayate, anishchaybuddhi vinashyate. Those who have faith in God will win, and those who do not have faith in Him or his knowledge will perish. Vinaashkaaley preetbuddhi vijayate, vipreetbuddhi vinashyate. Those who love God at the time of destruction will gain victory and those who oppose God will perish.

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari,

Prajapita Brahmakumar.

 

 

[sumedh]

Dear roohani sevadhari

Hare Krishna

 

you said:

 

How many acharyas and religious fathers are required to transform the world?

 

 

 

This world is "dukhalayam" and not suitable for the spirit soul. That one can make a heaven in this world is only self-deception.

 

you said:

 

It is famous in the scriptures that when poison and nectar emerged from the churning of ocean by deities and demons, then everyone was eager to drink the nectar to become imperishable, but nobody wanted to drink the poison. It was only Shiv-Shankar bholeynath, who came forward to drink the poison and was thus called neelkanth.

 

 

 

Which is not completely correct. For example the Rg Veda says the following about the churning of the ocean:

keshi-sukta in Rgveda (10.136...)

 

vAyurasmA upAmanthat.h pinashhTismA kunannamA

keshI vishhasya pAtreNa yad.hrudreNApibat.hsaha

It says that Vayu actually drank the most of it, crushed and reduced the vigour of the remaining portions and gave it to Shiva.

There is more to it that after drinking it Lord Shiva became unconscious and regained consciousness by the touch of Lord Hari.

 

This is not to diminish the greatness of Lord Shiva in anyway (for the poison is described as being so strong that even the sight of it was deadly), who is called the greatest vaishnava (vaishnavam yatha shambhu -- Srimad Bhagavatam).

[Guest guest]

Does Shankar have 4 arms or 1,000,000 of arms?

 

The Pandavas seem like a very special group of souls. I could see why they would not be afraid giving the fact of whom it is they have recognized.

 

Why would others insult or abuse such a man?

[Guest guest]

The great acharyas Sankar, Ramanuja, Bhallabhacharya and other great sages since time immemorial have accepted Sr Krishna as the supreme god in different Kalpas. Knowledge can be stolen by his illusory energy Maya for which he says to Arjun in Gita,

"I am giving the same knowledge what I have given to original sun god."

Unfortunately, many scholars with their partial realization of god has interepretd GITA as per their understanding. So, true knowledge is as it is, it can not be manufactured.

We simply cannot uderstand him through our limited potency or through our material senses without his mercy.

 

Even Lord Brahma bewilders to know his potency. In Brahma sahmita, he says

"Iswar Paramah Krshna sachidananda bigraha,

Anadir adi Govind sarva karanam karanah".

So, Krishna is cause of all causes, he has a spiritual body that is sat-chit-anand.

 

Simultaneously, the brahma jyoti is also his swarup, his efflugence. He is above that brahma jyoti realization. Great sages, who had realized this brhma jyoti later facinated to lord Krishna's personal form.

 

Definitely, followers of Brahmakumaris path are in good path but that path is in premitive stage of spiritualization. Like before attaining master's degree one has to complete his primary, high school and degree education.

 

In Kaliyug specially, people have lost their standard to realize supreme personality. For which, God sometimes spread easy methods for spiritual advancement through his messangers like a teacher teaches different students as per their grasping power.

 

Even SriKrishna has stated in GITA,

To become a pure devotee of mine is rarest of the rarest. He has given very confidential message in last chapter of GITA. After reading all these, still doubt if comes about Krishna, then simply I can say, our intelligence is stolen by maya.

 

We should believe on sanatan dharma that is based on eternal knowledge not any religion that comes today & become extint after few hundred years.

 

What ever religious path may be, they have to keep Krishna and worship Krshna. Otherwise that will not sustain....

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Learned Guest wrote:

--------------------------

A Proton also has Paramatma in it. Krishna says He is the smallest OF THE small. Therefore taking Krishna statement we can see His legs and hands are present everywhere. So then how can God be Impersonal? Impossible.

--------------------------

If Parmatma is present in every proton, electron and neutron then why His qualities are not visible in every human being? Why are they acting against the values taught by God?

 

On the one side the dwaita philosophy says that atma and parmatma are different and on the other side they say that Parmatma is present in every atom. Are these statements not contradictory?

 

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari,

Prajapita Brahmakumar

 

[Guest guest]

Omshanti.

Learned guest wrote:

--------------------------

Gita is for devotees of Krishna(Visnu), who are the only ones eleigible for Moksha. Others need not accept them.

--------------------------

If the Sanskrit Gita, is only for the devotees of Krishna, then what about the millions/billions of other souls, who may be ardent devotees of God, but need not necessarily remember Him in the form of Shri Krishna? Will they not get the inheritance of God?

 

Learned guest further wrote:

--------------------------Vaishnavas cannot change interpretation of Gita some non-devotees can accept. We are not running an election for Gita to be elected as scripture. Gita is scripture because these are the words of Bhagavan Sri Krishna.

--------------------------

 

The sanskrit Gita is only a scripture but not the original word of God although it has the essence of what God is telling presently. If it was the originl word of God, then it should have ushered in Satyug instead of Kaliyug. Moreover, when none of the religious fathers wrote any book, they only narrated their knowledge throughout their life, which was later compiled in the form of a book by their disciples, then how can God, the Supreme Father of all the religious fathers give knowledge that is limited to just one book or a few scriptures? He gives unlimited knowledge as long as He is present in a corporeal form, i.e. when He enters into a human medium.

With regards,

On Godly service,

Roohani sevadhari,

Prajapita Brahmakumar.