Arguing with atheists

[mark]

Haribol

 

I believe that we are eternal spirit souls and accept that we are not our bodies, because as Srila Prabhupada has pointed it out throughout our lives our bodies are

changing, yet 'we' are still the same person, and its is a medical fact that the cells in our body are gradually dying and replacing themselves, so that every seven years or so we have effectively replaced our entire body with a new one.

 

But what argument would you respond with to an atheistic person who says that we are just our minds, ie 'we' are just the electrical impulses buzzing around our brain,

and who says that there is no soul? They would argue that death is merely the cessation of this electrical activity and that we cease to exist at this point.

 

I have not got into such an argument yet but would like to have a ready answer if I ever do!

 

humble obeisances and thanks

Mark

 

[Guest guest]

I did not read it yet but I was checking this out :

"

In the world of modern science, consciousness is reduced to a fading epiphenomenon, left over after the brain has been physically explained. It seems to arise when matter is suitably organized, but scientists and philosophers have been unable to explain why complex organization should produce anything beyond complex physical behavior. Yet consciousness won't go away.

 

One possibility is that, instead of being produced by matter, consciousness is a separate element, added to physical systems. This can be modeled using the idea of a virtual reality, in which a human subject enters a computer-simulated world through a sensory interface. In this book, virtual reality is used as a metaphor for our situation as conscious beings. The basic theme is that what we can imagine doing in a virtual reality system may actually be happening in nature on a vastly greater scale. Nature may be like a computer simulation interfaced with conscious observer / participant .

 

This groundbreaking book shows how conscious beings could interact with a physically realistic virtual world. It shows how both paranormal phenomena and religious experiences can be reconciled in a natural way with the laws of physics, and it sheds light on paradoxes of time, on life beyond the body, and on cosmic and terrestrial evolution. In a sweeping synthesis, the ideas and data of modern science are used to illuminate the ancient theme of consciousness in a world of illusion. "

 

-Maya: The World As Virtual Reality

by Richard Thompson

[Guest guest]

I think Richard Thompson is a devotee of Srila Prabhupada!

 

He has written some other books like the

 

"Mysteries of the Sacred Universe: The cosmology of the Bhagavata Purana" and also a book on Vedic science and aliens.

 

He is a scientist and a professor and his books give credibility to Vedic Science...ofcourse...he is a devotee of Srila Prabhuapada!

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Nitaichandra]

Sadaputa Das

[FrankNatha]

KNOWLEDGE OF SOUL ----- WHY?

Lack of knowledge of one’s true self’s is the real cause of all human suffering and unhappiness. Man today identifies himself with the body, mostly sensuously. He does not know much about the immortal entity, called ‘soul’ which resides in, and functions through the body. Man’s ignorance about soul results in a ‘body-conscious’ or worldly approach towards life. His sub-conscious is constantly haunted by the fear of death, which he thinks, will deprive him of everything he possesses and holds dear. Human suffering on mass-scale caused by natural calamities and wars confuse him still more. These phenomena compel him to think at sometime or the other as to whether these happenings take place by sheer accident of ‘luck’ or there are definite laws governing the same. At times he also wonders as to who He is and what is he doing here? Why is everything so transient and perishable, with the signature of death on it? Unless these fundamental aspects of life are rightly understood, the body-conscious approach is bound to be there. Man’s ignorance about his true self leads him to the wrong conclusion that his physical existence is the be all and end all of everything. This results in his adopting wrong values in life, which in turn leads to his committing wrong acts and consequently cause suffering to him. No wonder, inspite of striving hard, he is unable to avoid sorrows and sufferings in life. Proper knowledge of one’s real self i.e. the ‘soul', its functioning and its role in the world Drama is, therefore, a ‘must’ for leading a peaceful, contented, happy and liberated life.

SOUL – THE PROGRAMMER

A human being is a 'soul' in a physical body. Just as a person who speaks and listens through a telephone instrument is an entity separate from the telephone set—in the same way, the 'soul' is an entity separate from the body. While the body is composed of five elements of matter and is operated through the mechanism of the physical brain by the soul, the ‘soul’ itself operates through its own faculties of mind, intellect and resolves(sanskars). The body, which is composed of five elements-- earth, water, fire, air, and ether are antagonistic to one another. Earth is dissolved by water, water is dried by fire, fire is consumed by air and air is absorbed by ether--but the soul in the body gives life to these five elements and makes them compatible with one another. The moment the soul withdraws from the body --the body supposedly dies --and earth merges in earth, water merges in water, fire in fire, air in air, and ether in ether. The body and its organs are only the agents or means to carry out the dictates of the soul. To explain it further it is not the mouth that speaks of its own, but it is the soul that speaks through the mouth-organ of the body. Thus the soul sees, hears, speaks and feels through the body. These functions are performed through the medium of the five senses of sight, sound, speech, smell and touch. Hence the soul can be likened to a programmer (user), the human brain to the computer and the human body to the robot. Just as a driver of any vehicle sits in the vehicle, but is separate from it, so also the soul who is the driver of the human body is separate from it, although residing within it. At the same time, the soul cannot do anything without body nor the body is of any use without the soul on this Karma Bhoomi ( World of Action). It is readily evident that the programmer, the computer and the robot are distinct and separate entities. However, since the soul has been in a physical body since birth, and birth after birth, gradually it has identified itself with the body. The soul is seated in a position in the center of the skull, just behind the pituitary gland, at the base of the hypothalamus.The surface marking between the two eyebrows--known as the 'eye center'-- 'Brahkuti' or 'the third eye', represents the point of exit and point of entry of the soul in the body. The soul (consciousness) enters the womb of the mother in the fifth month of gestation, which corresponds well with the first movement of the foetus experienced by the mother during that time. In Hindu culture, the bindi (dot) applied on the forehead between the two eyes by the sisters and mothers--and tilak applied by the brothers is the symbolic remembrance of the soul--atma-(point of light)--third eye--the eye of the intellect.

 

The mind is non-physical, feeling and thinking faculty of the soul, where thoughts are constantly in play. All thoughts and emotions originate in the mind. The speed of mind is the fastest and unparelelled among even the fastest modes of science. It can reach anywhere within a fraction of a second. Just a thought can take one to his remotest past and farthest place in no time. Being a subtle power, the mind does not come across any barrier of time and space. In less than a second the mind can go into the past or future, re-live and experience it and feel sad or happy as the case may be. It is rightly said, 'It's all in the Mind'. Sitting in his room man can think of the sun faster than light can travel from the sun to him. Mind should be distinguished from the ‘heart’ which is a physical organ. The ‘heart’ is not the seat of emotions—but the target of emotions, which are originating in the mind.

The intellect is the discriminating and judging faculty of the soul, which takes decisions, based on past stimuli already stored in and present stimuli currently being received by the mind. It understands, reasons out, discriminates and takes decisions. Intellect should be distinguished from the ‘brain’ which is a physical organ of the body. Brain is the center of the nervous system of the body and serves as the control panel for the soul to conduct and regulate the different organs of the body.

The resolves (sanskars) consist of the resultant impressions, generated by every thought, word, and deed upto a given point of time, which are then responsible for triggering or producing fresh thoughts. Therefore, resolves give birth to thoughts, which emerge in the mind, and if accepted by the intellect are translated into action, which in turn creates new impressions. This forms a cyclic pattern. Sanskars determine the overall personality of an individual.

Without energy(soul)----matter(body) is useless;Without matter(body)----energy(soul) is helpless-( it cannot express itself )---Just a small analogy to prove it---If you are in a room and have electricity and no bulb -- then howsoever hard you may try, you will not be able to light up that room and also vice versa. Both are required to light up that room. The same can be said of television--when we watch the television we say that we are watching the television when in fact we are watching the audio-visual energy which is being projected thru' the TV. When we say that my TV is dead it only means that due to some malfunction the audio-visual energy has stopped expressing thru' that medium. Neither of them have ceased to exist. Both are existing but no longer in association with each other. The same is true for BODY(matter) and SOUL(energy). Association of body + soul = life. Dis-association of body and soul = death.

 

I = soul (self) (eternal, non-material, self-luminious point of light energy)

 

I = Soul = Driver

I = Soul = Actor

I = Soul = Musician

I = Soul = The personality(psyche)

I = Soul = Possessor

My or Mine = Body. ( skeleton + flesh + organs.—made of 5 elements water, earth, fire, air and ether)

Body = my costume

Body = my instrument

Body = physique (soma)

Body = possession

Body = my vehicle

 

 

[mark]

Haribol

 

Many thanks for the indepth explanation Frank.

 

I have one question about your statement that I would be interested to hear comments on from anybody :

 

"The soul (consciousness) enters the womb of the mother in the fifth month of gestation, which corresponds well with the first movement of the foetus experienced by the mother during that time."

 

I had formed the impression from my reading so far that the soul entered the body at the point of conception - what do the scriptures say about this please?

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Humble obeisances

Mark