Bhakti as the ultimate goal beyond mukti

[shvu]

 

Sruti texts are full of flowery words, but one should seek after its deep realization, not after some dry lexicological definitions.

The start point of which, is to first know what is what. If the basic definition itself is faulty, where is the chance to progress?

 

Both the good and the pleasant present themselves to a man. The calm soul examines

them well and discriminates. Yea, he prefers the good to the pleasant. - Katha 1.2.2

 

Fools dwelling in darkness, but thinking themselves wise and erudite, go round and

round, by various tortuous paths, like the blind led by the blind. - Katha 1.2.5

 

The basic foundation here is that the Sruti cannot be wrong as it was not created by man. Thus a definition that comes out of it cannot be overridden with a fancier one because it appears more colorful or pleasant. It can be overridden, but after doing so, the new definition is not a vedic one.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

 

In Gitopanisad 2.54 is stated:

 

sruti-vipratipanna te / yada sthasyati niscala

samadhav acala buddhis / tada yogam avapsyasi

 

"When your intelligence becomes detached from hearing various interpretations of the Vedas, and when it becomes free from all other attachments while remaining steadfast in Paramesvara, then you will attain the fruit of yoga."

 

 

"In sastra there are two types of subjects: uddista and nirddista. The subject which is the highest objective of any sastra is called uddista-visaya. That instruction which indicates uddista-visaya is called nirddista-visaya. For example, because it is so dim, the Arundhati star is very difficult to see in the sky without assistance. If someone's objective is to see it, he must first take an indication from the biggest star closest to it. So, if Arundhati is the uddista-visaya, the biggest star closest to it is the nirddista-visaya.

 

"All the Vedas indicate suddha-bhakti to be the uddista-visaya. Because suddha-bhakti cannot be understood immediately, the Vedas first describe saguna-tattva (reality with the gunas, that are the basis of philosophical systems) which is the nirddista-visaya. Thus maya, consisting of the three modes sattva, rajas and tamas, initially appears to be the subject matter of the Vedas. Some parts of the Vedic literatures describe karma in rajo-guna and tamo-guna. Other parts describe jñana in sattva-guna, and in specific places there is a description of nirguna-bhakti (suddha-bhakti). So, one should attain nitya-sattva (pure spiritual existence) by becoming free from dualities such as honour and dishonour. In other words, by sadhu-sanga, one should renounce the endeavour for yoga (acquisition) and ksema (preservation) sought after by the processes of jñana and karma and, by the process of buddhi-yoga, attain nirguna."

 

This is the comment given by Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, a very learned and respectable Gaudiya acarya. He is not stating that suddha-bhakti itself the ultimate goal beyond mukti

 

Some other Gaudiya acaryas, however, had postulated another thesis, by stating that bhakti is atma-svarupa, and therefore it is a goal beyond mukti. But according to the personal example given by Sri Caitanya Himself, at the end it seems that isvara-sayujiya is the result of bhakti.

 

So, it is clear that most of the members can understand the definition of mukti. They aren't discussing it. Again, the point is, "Is bhakti itself the ultimate goal beyond mukti?"

Starting this thread Jndas has said:

 

"The Srimad Bhagavatam states the following regarding bhakti and liberation:

 

salokya-sarshti-samipya- / sarupyaikatvam apy uta

diyamanam na grihnanti / vina mat-sevanam janah

 

"A devotee does not accept any kind of liberation--salokya, sarshti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, if they are devoid of the Lord's service."

 

"This clearly establishes bhakti as the ultimate goal beyond mukti, or liberation. What to speak of ekatvam [nondual liberation], the devotee even rejects salokya-mukti [to reside on the same spiritual planet as the Lord], sarshti-mukti [to have the same oppulences as the Lord], samipya-mukti [to be an associate of the Lord], and sarupya-mukti [to have the same bodily form as the Lord]. Bhakti is the ultimate aim, even beyond liberation."

 

But his assertive is ridiculous, as the acarya has putted his translation in the conditional case by employing if. In the case of mukti linked with bhakti this kind of mukti should be accepted and not rejected. The sloka does not states that bhakti is the ultimate goal beyond mukti.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Are you looking for "nice" definitions or the true definition as defined in the Sruti?

Up till now I'm the only one who has provided a traditional definition to these words. I would appreciate you doing the same rather than just talking and talking about definitions.

 

Don't post some flowery passage from Kathopanishad describing how one will attain mukti. What you should post is a definition.

 

[Guest guest]

 

The Bhagavatam describes those who attain mukti without developing devotion. They "again fall down". If one does not attain bhakti, mukti is an incomplete accomplishment:

 

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas / tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah / patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

 

"O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet."(Jndas)

 

It seems that the interpretation on this sloka by Jndas is very uncertain. The speaker of the sloka is not stating that these people are already liberated. He is stating that they think to be liberated and that they may fall down from the highest point of that pseudo-liberation. They had not attained mukti yet.

 

This sloka also does not proves the assertive that "bhakti is the ultimate goal beyond mukti," rather it says that mukti cannot be attained without bhakti, and it does not place mukti as something secondary to bhakti.

 

[Guest guest]

Pure devotees do not desire liberation. In the Padma Purana, Satyavrata Muni emplifies pure devotion when offering the following prayer to the Lord:

 

varam deva moksham na mokshavadhim va / na canyam vrine 'ham vareshad apiha

idam te vapur natha gopala-balam / sada me manasy avirastam kim anyaih

 

"O Lord, although you are able to give all kinds of benedictions, I do not pray for the boon of liberation [moksha], nor the highest liberation of eternal life in Vaikuntha [moksha-avadhim], nor any other boon. O Lord, I simply wish that this form of Yours as Bala Gopala in Vrindavana may be ever manifest in my heart, for what is the use of any other boon besides this?"

 

The great devotee Satyavrata Muni has no interest in liberation, nor even in being elevated to Sri Vaikuntha. His only desire is to constantly remember the Lord's form. This practice of smaranam is one of the nine limbs of bhakti, which is superior to the desire for liberation.

 

This is a nice prayer indeed. Damodara stotram. Gaudiyas use attribute this stotram to a conversation between Narada Muni and Satyavrata Muni in Padma Purana.

 

There is no mention of such conversation in the whole Padma Purana. At least in the versions of Padma Purana available nowadays. It seems to be another interpolation on Padma Purana only knew by Gaudiyas, like the one who describes Sri Caitanya's avatara in a dialog between Siva and Parvati, also non-existent in any of the Padma Purana's versions of the present and mentioned by Locana dasa in his Caitanya-mangala.

 

Some say that this Damodara stotram was also a composition by Bhaktivinoda, who was an ardent defender of this thesis that "bhakti is the ultimate goal beyond mukti."

 

[Guest guest]

>> bhukti-mukti-spriha yavat / pishaci hridi vartate

tavad bhakti-sukhasyatra / katham abhyudayo bhavet

 

"The material desire to enjoy the material world and the desire to become liberated from material bondage are considered to be two witches, and they haunt one like ghosts. As long as these witches remain within the heart, how can one feel transcendental bliss? As long as these two witches remain in the heart, there is no possibility of enjoying the transcendental bliss of devotional service."

 

This verse is from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.22) by Rupa Goswami, the main acarya of Gaudiyas. Sri Jiva, Sri Rupa's only disciple and also a great Gaudiya acarya, while commenting this sloka, states:

 

"Mukti is of two kinds; first is that which clouds the longing for bhakti, and the second kind of mukti offers self-satisfaction to the individual. Mukti has been described here as a witch, because it changes the face of desire for bhakti by dubious methods. It is true that pure devotees are freed from bondage, ie become muktas, but this is done by the force of bhakti itself and not as any consequence of desire on the part of the devotee..."

 

Sri Visvanatha while commenting this verse states: "Sri Rupa has been appropriately described the longing for mukti as a fiend, because in Srimad Bhagavatam (6.17.28) it is stated that a genuine devotee looks upon heaven, moksa and hell with equal indiference."

 

But none of these acaryas corroborate the thesis that "bhakti is the ultimate goal beyond mukti."

 

[Guest guest]

Elsewhere we find the same sentiment in the following prayer:

 

tvat-sakshat-karanahlada-vishuddhabdhi-sthitasya me / sukhani goshpadayante brahmany api jagad-guro

 

"My dear Lord, O master of the universe, since I have directly seen You, my transcendental bliss has taken the shape of a great ocean. Thus I now regard the happiness derived from understanding Brahman to be like the water contained in a calf's hoofprint."

 

Thus, the Realization of Brahman is insignificant compared to engagement in devotional service, such as hearing, chanting and remembering the Lord.(Jndas)

 

 

The speaker of this sloka is clear stating that he has directly seen the Bhagavan aspect of the Ultimate Reality, and that the happiness derived from that realization is far beyond the theoretical understanding of Brahman aspect. No surprise at all.

 

The speaker is not stating that he has attained the full realization of the Brahman aspect of the Ultimate Reality, and he is not saying anything related to the limbs of vaidhi-bhakti such as the activities of sravanam , kirtanam and smaranam visnoh. He is not comparing sadhana with any kind of realization.

 

We cannot find any evidence to corroborate the thesis that "bhakti is the ultimate goal beyond mukti" in this sloka.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Satyaraja:

We cannot find any evidence to corroborate the thesis that "bhakti is the ultimate goal beyond mukti" in this sloka.

Actually we are all blinded by ignorance in this material world, making it almost impossible for us to see the ultimate reality. Thats why we need to take shelter of a liberated soul, a sat-guru. Such a saint can open our eyes with the torchlight of knowledge: ajnana-timarandhasya jnanajana-shalakaya chakushur unmilitam yena.

 

You do seem to have found such a saint, so perhaps approach him humbly and request him to enable you to see things clearly. If you forgot who I am refering to, it is your spiritual master Srila Narayana Maharaja. Remember him?

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Audarya lila]

It is instructive to note, as Jiva Goswami has done in his Tattva Sandarbha, that the Srimad Bhagavatam was composed by Vyasa after he followed Narada's instructions and entered into samadhi. Also, the principal speaker in the Bhagavatam, Sukadeva Goswami, was a liberated soul (atmarama) from birth. Yet, he was attracted to the Bhagavatam and became it's principal speaker!

 

Here are the eight verses from the first canto that are relevant to this discussion.

 

1) Thus he (Vyasa) absorbed his mind in bhakti-yoga free from material contamination and realized the purna-purusa along with his subordinate, material energy.

 

2) (He further realized that) the living entity (jiva), although transcendental to the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be a product of them by virtue of identifying with them and thus suffers under their influence.

 

3) Thus Vyasa composed the Srimad-Bhagavatam (satvata-samhita) for the people in general, who are unaware that bhakti-yoga directed to the transcendental Godhead is the means of their deliverance from grief.

 

4) If a person merely hears the message of Srimad-Bhagavatam, devotion to Krsna, the parama purusa, will manifest within him and free him from lamentation, fear, and illusion.

 

5) After initially compiling Srimad-Bhagavatam, Vyasa revised it and then taught it to his son (Sukadeva), who was situated in renunciation.

 

6) (Having heard this from Suta Goswami) Sri Saunaka asked Suta: "Why did Sri Sukadeva Goswami, who was already living in renunciation and self-realized, rejoicing within, and unconcerned with his surroundings, study such a vast literature?"

 

7) Suta Goswami replied: " Sages such as Sukadeva who take pleasure in the self and are free from bondage, none-the-less relish unmotivated devotion to Urukrama (krsna). Such are the virtues of Hari."

 

8) Sukadeva Goswami, the son of Vyasa, was captivated by the virtues of Hari, and thus studied Srimad-Bhagavatam, becoming dear to Visnu's (Krsna's) devotees.

 

These eight verses form the core of Sri Jiva's arguments and analysis in the Prameya Kanda section of his tattva sandarbha. From him we get the idea of understanding the Bhagavatam as 'samadhi bhasya' - the fruit of the trance of Vyasa.

 

Sri Jiva concludes from Sukadeva's attraction to Krsna lila that the prayojana, or goal of life, is not mere liberation from worldliness, but positive attachment within transcendence to the personification of transcendence, Sri Krsna. Krsna prema, or love of Krsna, is the fruit of all transcendental culture.

 

From Tripurari Swami's Bhavanuvada of Tattva Sandharbha: - "If God realization is the fourth dimension of consciousness (the first being waking state, second - dreaming, third - deep sleep), Jiva Goswami's idea of love of God, in which God becomes ours, is revolutionary. It seems to take us beyond even this fourth dimension. If we resign ourselves to becoming God's own, he takes the role of our maintainer. However,if he is ours, he is then subordinated to our love such that his Godhood is suppressed by that love. This is the Krsna conception of Godhead, one in which God appears not as God, nor jiva soul as jiva soul. Both interrelate intimately as lover and beloved, krsna and his gopis, beyond any sense of each other's ontological reality, yet beyond the material illusion as well. This dimension of love of Godhead is thus justifiably termed by the Gaudiya Vaisnavas as the fifth dimension, turyatitah, the dimension of the soul's soul." *Krsna has been described as beyond the fourth, turyatitah in the Gopala-tapani Unpanishad 2.96

 

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[vskd]

QUOTE]Originally posted by jndas:

Up till now I'm the only one who has provided a traditional definition to these words. I would appreciate you doing the same rather than just talking and talking about definitions.

 

Don't post some flowery passage from Kathopanishad describing how one will attain mukti. What you should post is a definition.

[vskd]

Originally posted by shvu:

Here is a sample from the katha upanishad [yajur veda] about the ultimate goal in life, which is to be found in all the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita and in the Srimad Bhagavatam. I am posting a few verses. It is recommended that the Upanishad be studied in full to get the complete picture.

 

(Brahman = Krishna)

 

Yama said: The goal which all the Vedas declare, which all austerities aim at and

which men desire when they lead the life of continence, I will tell you briefly: it is

Om. 1.2.15

 

This syllable Om is indeed Brahman. This syllable is the Highest. 1.2.16

 

If a man is able to realise Brahman here, before the falling asunder of his body, then

he is liberated; if not, he is embodied again in the created worlds. 2.3.4

 

Beyond the Unmanifest is the Person, all pervading and imperceptible. Having realised

Him, the embodied self becomes liberated and attains Immortality. 2.3.8

 

His form is not an object of vision; no one beholds Him with the eye. One can know Him

when He is revealed by the intellect free from doubt and by constant meditation. Those

who know this become immortal. 2.3.9

 

When all the desires that dwell in the heart fall away, then the mortal becomes immortal

and here attains Brahman. 2.3.14

 

Cheers

 

More verses glorifying Bhakti Devi:

 

" AtmA ramazca munayo nirgranthA apyurukrame

kurvanty ahaitukI bhakti mitthaM bhUta guNe hariH "

" harerguNAkSipta matir bhagavAn bAdarAyaNiH

adhyagAn mahad AkhyAnaM nityaM viSNujanapriyaH "

(Srimad Bhagavatam 1.7.10,11)

 

Suta replied:

 

Even the LIBERATED Sages who delight in the Supreme Self (Brahman) alone and the knot of whose ignorance (Maya) has been cut asunder get engaged and absorbed in Sefless Devotion TO SRI HARI!

Those who have ATTAINED the State of Paramahamsas become forcibly attracted to Lord Krishna.

There is definitely some remarkable special power in Him.

Such are His virtues!

 

This was TRUE ALL the MORE of the Divine Sage Sukadeva, son of Veda Vyasa (Baadaraayana) and the beloved of Lord Vishnu's OWN Associates, who studied this Great Chronicle (Bhagavatam) every day, his God realized MIND having been CAPTIVATED by Sri Hari's Excellences.

 

"muktAnAmapi siddhAnAM nArayaNa parAyaNaH

sudurlabhaH prazAnt AtmA kotiSv api mahAmune"

(Sri Bhagavatam 6.14.5)

 

Even among ten millions of those who have been rid of identification with the body etc.,(LIBERATED SOULS) and even realized the Supreme Self (Brahman), he whose entire being is perfectly serene and solely (spontaneously) devoted to Lord Narayana is MOST difficult to FIND.

 

In other words, there is seldom a fortunate Paramahamsa Mukta (Liberated Mahatma) among millions, WHO attain that Bliss of Divine Love (Prema Bhakti- Vraja Madhurya Rasa).

 

In C.C.2.17.134 and Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, it is said -

 

"athaH zrI kRSNa nAmAdi

na bhaved grAhyam indriyaiH,

sevonmukhe jihvAdau

svayam eva sphuraty adaH"

 

"ataeva kRSNera 'nAma','deha','vilAsa'

prAkRtendriya grAhya nahe, haya sva prakAza"

 

With these "(Non liberated) Mayic material mind, senses devoid of Divne Love", one can not even understand nor percieve the Transcendental form, Holy Name, and His Blissful Divine exploits.

 

However, when one is actually devoted to Him in Spontaneous Loving Relationship, LORD is revealed to that liberated soul by His Divine Grace.

 

 

Jaya, Jaya Sri Radhey!

[shvu]

vskd,

 

I take it you are aware that Smriti is valid only when it does not contradict Sruti. Thus if the bhagavatam verses cannot be explained in the light of Sruti, they are not authority.

 

brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati will do, to show that a realized person cannot come out of his realization and possibly find something "better". And further, nArAyana = brahman, as known by sarvam khalvidam brahma and vAsudevam sarvamiti, thus ruling out such a possiblity entirely.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 06-21-2001).]

[dasanudas]

Mukti-bhukti or bhakti, which way to go?

To the Lotus feet of God, or the great zero.

[vskd]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

According Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, a very famous and respectable Gaudiya acarya, there are two kinds of sayujiya-mukti: brahma-sayujiya and isvara-sayujiya. (see Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu)

 

He states that brahma-sayujiya or the union with the non-manifested Brahmam is not so bad as isvara-sayujiya, or the union with Sri Bhagavan's body itself, from where there is no return. He has considered it as a spiritual suicide. Only great demons had attained this kind of moksa, according his thesis and words.

 

Sri Caitanya's divinity is a fact to be proved, and it is accept only by Gaudiyas. Mirabai's divinity is out of question, as no sect has ever postulated her divinity until now. Both had attained the same end, ie, fusion or union with vigraha. Vigraha is the same as Bhagavan's body, therefore both had attained isvara-sayujiya-mukti at the end.

 

This is their precept through their action. So, the aim is not bhakti itself; its something else that is a consequence of the attainment of a high level of bhakti. It was not exactly only prema-bhakti. It was isvara-sayujiya!!!

Another Divinity apart from Sri Gauranga and Smt. Mirabai that comes to my mind is the Lady Saint Goda Devi, Andaal- of Sri Vaishnava sect.

 

The esteemed Lover of Lord, Srimati Goda Devi( Andal), the Mirabai of South India had composed the beautiful, transcendental poetry, soul-stirring 'Tiru Pavai'.

 

"......The supreme devotees of God, who are in a state of perpetual soul-communion and union with God, are patterns of Divine Love.

In Sri Vaishnavism they are called Azhwars (Alvars).

The Tamil term Alwar signifies-

 

"He who dives deep into the ocean of countless auspicious attributes of God", and the corresponding feminine term is ANDAL -

"She who dives deep into the ocean of love divine".

 

That is the generic term Alwar, which is applied only to eleven saints, has become the distictive appellation of a single saint, itself speaks volumes of spiritual eminence of that DIVINE MAIDEN, shining as a STAR of Bridal Mysticism.....

 

...Her surrender to Her Chosen Bridegroom was so complete that there was absolutely no trace in it of self-seeking or jealousy, no single stain or shade of human weakness or impurity.

She was the "burning Sappho" endowed with the Pure Passion of KRISHNA-PREMA (Love of Lord Krishna), and Her WHOLE LIFE WAS A POEM of Growth and Fulfillment of that DIVINE BRIDAL LONGING.

What a PASSIONATE FERVOUR of MYSTIC LOVE FOR KRISHNA is revealed in Her verses!......."

 

(Excerpts from -"Women Saints of East and West- 'Andal' by Swami Paramatmananda of Sri Ramakrishna Math, Madras, India.")

 

"......Before proceeding further concerning the detailed contents of "Tiruppaavai", it is necessary to give a life sketch of the poet-saint.

Goda devi (Andaal) was the foster daughter of the Tamil Saint Vishnucitta, also known as PeriAlvaar....

.......Periaalvar recognized immediately the Divine nature of his foster daughter, who could ONLY be offered to Him (God) as a bride. it is said that he described to Goda the various shrines in India and the presiding dieteies and that Goda set her heart on marrying NONE other than Sri Ranganatha, the Lord of the Sri Rangam temple.

 

No wonder that this God-hungry Divine damsel succeeded in her ambition of securing HIM for her Consort.

There are different versions about Goda's UNION with the Lord.

One is that Lord Ranganatha appeared to Periaalvar in a dream and asked for Goda's hand. Periaalvar took her to Sri Rangam with all splendour of a MARRIAGE party. As soon as She went to the shrine of Lord Ranganatha, SHE MERGED into the LORD.

 

The other version is that Lord Ranganatha went to Sri Villipuram (native town of Goda) to WED Goda at the shrine there and thereafter She was MERGED in the Lord.

Some say that both happened. These are matters of detail.

 

The heart of the story is that Goda's UNION with the Lord took place AS PER HER WISHES!

She CONQUERED the Lord and RULED over HIM and hence She came to be known as ANDAAL, also means Protector of ALL beings.

The simple maiden became a great Saint......."

 

(Source- 'Tituppaavai of Goda'- Our Lady Saint Andaal's Garland of Krishna Poem' by S.L.N.Simha)

 

The Gopi-bhava Rasik-Saint Sri Bilvamangala Thakur says in Sri Krishna Karnamritam-

 

"bhaktis tvayi sthira tarA bhagavanyadisyAd

devana naH phaliti divya kizoramUrtiH,

muktiH svayaM mukulitAJjali sevate 'smAn

dharmArtha kAmagatayaH samaya pratIkSA"

(SKK-1.107)

 

"trisatya bhaktireva garIyasI, bhaktir eva garIyasI"

(Narada Bhakti Sutra - 81)

 

"ONLY Prema Bhakti, Divine Love of the Absolute, Eternal Lord is the GREATEST; this Prema Bhakti, INDEED is the Greatest."

 

Jaya Sri Radhey!

[shvu]

Mukti-bhukti or bhakti, which way to go?To the Lotus feet of God, or the great zero.

The answer is bhakti, of course. bhakti without aspiring for anything (including mukti). That does not mean saying "I don't want mukti, I'll reject it because some gurus say it is inferior".

 

"bhakti not mukti" simply means, do not aspire for anything.

 

Fix your mind on Me alone, let your intellect rest in me, you will live in Me

alone hereafter; there is no doubt. - Gita 12.8

 

bhakti is a path to liberation, irrespective of whether one wants it or not. Some jokers (pseudo-vedAntins to be precise), have been falsely putting down mukti [ the paramapurushArtha ] as something cheap and inferior. If I were a traditional vedAntin, I would have jumped into the nearest river to purify myself on reading statements like bhakti > mukti, mere mukti, just mukti, mukti = muck, etc. It is blasphemy, as in,

 

But those who carp at this teaching of mine and do not practise it - know such fools, bereft of knowledge, to be doomed. - Gita 3.32

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 06-22-2001).]

[dasanudas]

Now in the spiritual arena Bhagavan Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu came and manifest the fifth dimension which was above and beyond all previous conceptions, but still accommodating them all. Prior to that the fourth dimension was given by Sankaracharyya and the second dimension was given by Buddha.

Buddha recognised the existence of the subtle body and concluded that with the dissolution of that subtle body nothing remains. Then Sankaracharyya said, “The subtle body is only a reflection of a further thing, Brahman, which is itself true and eternal, and this world is also a reflection of that. With the dissolution of the reflection, the individual soul dissolves forever and nothing but Brahman remains.”

There are in fact so very many differences between the propounders of the main conceptions of reality, and also to a certain extent there are differences amongst their disciples.

Sankaracharyya and Buddha both preferred that the ultimate goal be non-differentiated, unknown and unknowable, and they finished there. Do you wish to go there? Elimination of all diversity may be a very peaceful position, a deep slumber, and that is their goal. There are many followers of that creed. But their sacrifice is of a lesser degree than those who dedicate themselves to the higher living plane.

Ramanuja said, “There is another world on the opposite side.” This material world is the world of exploitation and beyond that is liberation, brahman or nirvana, but on the other side of that is the positive plane which is purely subjective and full of dedication. That is the fourth dimension, Vaikuntha, the land of Vishnu.

Then Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu gave the additional conception,

explaining, “Calculative dedication in Vaikuntha is one thing but spontaneous dedication to Krishna in Goloka is another. And the highest ideal is not spontaneous dedication to power and majesty, but to Love beauty.”For this to exist there must be life, and concious units to exchange with.

Sankaracharyya said, “All is one, there is no variety.” But Mahaprabhu points out, “If there is no variety, how can the question of unity arise? If there is variety then there must be the question of unity otherwise what is there to unify. So in this world we are to make our proper adjustments, we have come here for that. The Vaisnavas want higher sacrifice, living dedication and tolerance for the central Personal Truth that is a reality in each vaisnavas heart. That truth we see as a person, and with His own will that He can include whowever he wishes within it. We shouldn't be envious. We must admit that and sincerely surrender to Him, if we want to have entrance into His world. But he is knowing our heart more than we know ourselves.

 

NECTAR AND POISON.

Dedication to Krishna is nectar and exploitation of this material energy is poison, and what the followers of Sankara and Buddha want is the middle position, where everything is harmonised into death, the plane of cessation of difference, freedom from suffering. That is brahman-nirvana, the final peace, devoid of trouble where all are buried in eternal slumber. If you prefer that you can go there. But what you find in this world is the reflection of the original whole, perverted into exploitation. On the other side is dedication. In the group of servitors practicing pure dedication, even their quarrel becomes beautiful. Whatever is found here is found there totally. Try to understand this general principle.

A poison may be utilised as medicine when applied properly. The mayavadi (impersonalists) cannot find any harmony in difference, they can only find harmony in the conception of non-differentiated Brahman consciousness. They cannot keep up the beautiful harmony in variety held by the vaishnavas. Rather they consider that everything must be merged, homogenized into one, to solve the problems of the world, for there to be freedom from pain. Other than that they have no solution, but only disturbance.

With the qualifications of humility, patience and forbearance, with no tendency to seek self-glory, but rather to glorify others and honour their respectable existence, we can live happily with our neighbours and the whole environment. Mahaprabhu has given this solution to us and we are to equip ourselves in this way. Why should you think your neighbour to be undesirable? You are not to complain against the environment but you are to control yourself and come to the proper understanding. With proper adjustment you will find everything to be harmonious, the desired land of your life. At home you shall find everything.

Srila B.R.Sridara Maharaj

 

[vskd]

Originally posted by shvu:

vskd,

 

I take it you are aware that Smriti is valid only when it does not contradict Sruti. Thus if the the bhagavatam verses, cannot be explained in the light of Sruti, they are not authority.

 

brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati will do, to show that a realized person cannot come out his realization and possibly find something "better". And nArAyana = brahman, as known by sarvam khalvidam brahma and vAsudevam saravamiti.

 

Cheers

Dear Shivji,

 

The foremost Advaitaacarya Sri Shankara Bhagavatpada said in his Viveka Chudamani-

 

I prostrate myself before Govinda,<u> the true Guru and ultimate Bliss, who is the unattainable resort of all scriptures and Vedanta.</u> 1

 

These three things are hard to achieve, and are attained only by the grace of God - human nature, the desire for liberation, and<u> finding refuge with a great God realized sage.</u> 3

 

Discriminating and dispassionate, endowed with peace and similar qualities, and <u> longing for liberation (from Maya) - such is the man who is considered fit to practise seeking for God.</u> 17

 

Among the contributory factors of liberation(from Maya),<u> devotion stands supreme,</u> and it is the search for<u> one's own true nature that is meant by devotion.</u> 31

 

Prema Bhakti of Lord Kishna is BEYOND liberation and Srimad Bhagavatam is known as "Paramahamsaya Samhitam" - meant for liberated souls like Sri Sukadeva(Godrealized even before birth! ) and Maharaj Parikshit who (while in the womb itself) had been blessed with the vision of Lord Krishna.

These Mahapurusha saints were given the privilege to relish "Prema Bhakti" through hearing and narrating the Great Scripture of Bhagavatam, which is said to be:

"nigama-kalpa-taror galitaM phalaM

zuka-mukhAd amRta-drava-samyutam

pibata bhagavataM rasam Alayam

muhur aho rasikA bhuvi bhAvukAH "

(Bhagavatam 1.1.3)

 

Meaning- O ye Rasik devotees possessing a TASTE for DIVINE JOY!

 

Srimad Bhagavatam is the<u> FRUIT ESSENCE of the wish-yielding tree of Veda,</u> dropped on earth from the mouth of (Parrot*) Sage Suka, and full of the NECTAR of Supreme Bliss.

 

It is UNMIXEd SWEETNESS (devoid of rind, seed or other superfluous matter).

 

GO ON DRINKING this DIVINE NECTAR again and again till there is consciousness LEFT in you !

 

* It is well-known truth that a fruit bit by a parrot is EXCEPTIONALLY sweet. There is a pun on the word 'Suka' in this verse, which also means a parrot.

 

(Translation by C.L.Goswami,M.A.,& Sastri)

 

 

" sarva vedAnta sAraM hi zrI bhAgavatam iSyate

tad rasAmRta tRptasya nAnyatrasvAd ratiH kvacit "

 

(Srimad Bhagavatam 12.13.15)

 

<u>The Glorious Bhagavatam is the QUINTESSENCE of ALL Scriptures and philosophies.... (Advaita, Visishata advaita, Dvaitaadvaita, Dvaita, etc.,)</u>.

 

The essence of ALL these philosophies is to ENGROSS the MIND in the Names, Forms, Pastimes, Qualities and Abodes of Lord Krishna.

This will RESULT in the ATTAINMENT of Divine Love Bliss through God's Grace.

The ECSTASY of Divine Love, eternally INCREASES through constant ASSOCIATION with the Names, Attributes, and Pastimes of the Lord.

 

Who ever has been satisfied with relishing the Immortalizing Nectar of Bhagagavata, will NOT ENJOY any other Scripture nor look for any other SOURCE of pleasure at any time!

 

" nimnagAnAM yathA gaMgA devAnAm acyuto yathA

vaiSNavAnAM yathA zambhuH purANAnAm idaM tathA

 

kSetrANAM caiva sarveSAM yathA kAzI hyonuttamA

tathA purANa vratAnAM zrI mad bhAgavataM dvijAH "

 

(Srimad Bhagavatam 12.13.16,17)

 

Just as the celestial Ganges is the most Holy among all the flowing rivers,

just as Lord Krishna is the Supreme among all Divine Personalties,

just as Lord Siva is the most Exalted Lover of Vishnu,

 

just as the City of Kasi is the most Sacred among all Holy places,

 

Srimad Bhagavatam is also the most fulfilling vow as well as the most elevated Scripture among all other auspicious Puranas.

 

Moreover the Blessed Author was the SAME Sri Vyasadeva, who had compiled the Vedas, Upanishads and given the Brahma sutras, Mahabharata as well as other puranas.

 

He himself warned the seekers of Prema Bhakti in Srimad Bhagavatam -

"zrutamapya upaniSadaM dUre hari kathAmRtAt

yanna saMti dravacitta kaMpAzru pulakAdayaH"

 

It is in the best interest of the devotees who are<u> eager to attain the 'Prema Bhakti'</u> that they should REMAIN at a DISTANCE to the DRY INTELLECTUALISM and Subtle Knowledge given in the UPANISHADS, even though it is pertaining to God (Brahman).

 

The reason being, that THOSE Scriptural statements are INCAPABLE of melting the heart of the devotee by producing the 'Sattvica Bhava Vikara' enjoyable Divine Love Ecstasies such as TEARS,TREMORS,

HORRIPILATION, SWEATING, TRANCE etc.,

 

as they DO NOT consist the Nectar of Hari Katha, the Sweet Pastimes of Lord Hari.

Lord Krishna says it is impossible for the heart be PURIFIED without Pure Bhakti!

 

Lord Krishna says to Uddhavaji-

 

"kathaM vinA rOmaharSaM dravatA cetasA vinA

vinAnandAzru kalayA zudhyed bhaktyA vinAzayaH"

 

(Bhagavatam 11.14.23,24)

 

How can the mind and heart <u> be purified without devotional attachment characterized by a softening of the heart</u>, the hair standing on end and TEARS OF LOVE AND JOY FLOWING OUT OF EYES?

 

A Prema bhakta of Mine whose speech is broken BY SOBS, whose heart MELTS and WHO WITHOUT ANY SHAME, SOMETIMES WEEPS PROFUSELY, or LAUGHS, OR SINGS ALOUD,OR DANCES, PURIFIES THE WHOLE UNIVERSE.

 

'vandanIya hai upaniSat, yAme jnAn mahAn,

zyAma prema binu jnAn so, prANa hIna tanu jAn'

 

(Bhakti Sataka- verse 88)

 

"Upanishads are esteemed because they contain immense Divine knowledge.

 

<u>But this knowledge DOES NOT produce nor increase ONE'S LOVE for Sri Krishna.</u>

 

Hence such knowledge is compared to an unconscious body without life and motion and not to be solicited by Prema Bhaktas!

 

Jaya Sri Radhey!

 

[This message has been edited by vskd (edited 06-21-2001).]

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by shvu:

The answer is Bhakti, of course. Bhakti without aspiring for anything (including mukti). That does not mean saying "I don't want mukti, I'll reject it because some gurus say it is inferior". "bhakti not mukti" simply means, do not aspire for anything.

 

Fix your mind on Me alone, let your intellect rest in me, you will live in Me

alone hereafter; there is no doubt. - Gita 12.8

 

]

Prabhu doesn't 'Fix your mind on Me alone' strike you as an aspiration. Without aspiration how can we advance from our present position. I can understand how Divine Grace may descend to deliver us, but even that will happen thru the effort to fix our minds and hearts on Him, as it appears He, in his infinite kindness responds to our free will making the decision to heed His advice in fixing our minds on Him for that there must be a movement (aspiration)on our behalf to move from forgetfulness to rememberance. Hence the process of Sravanam Kirtanam Visnoh Smaranam, to help fix up our maladjustment.And it must be an aspiration from below where we presently are, to a higher platform of Nistha (consistency)

 

"bhakti not mukti" simply means, do not aspire for anything.

 

This can leave us in 'No where land'. Rather Bhakti begets Bhakti, Thru desiring Krsna one gets Krsna. Just as a beautiful partner has to know you have some affection for them otherwise the relationship just translates as one sided and will hardly be sustainable if the Lord has to do all the work.

We are forever aspiring to ever increasing affections for that high and noble Ideal Reality of Love and Beauty. This is the enless life of a devotee. To think we have arrived there, is also a great folly.

In the service of the jivas.

dasanudas

 

 

 

[shvu]

 

Yeah, when I said Bhakti without aspiring for anything, I mean nothing other than Bhakti. As the Gita says "Fix your mind on me alone". Krishna will be the only aspiration.

 

Cheers

[amanpeter]

From a previous post by Dasanudas:

 

The mayavadi

(impersonalists) cannot find any harmony in difference, they can only find

harmony in the conception of non-differentiated Brahman consciousness. They

cannot keep up the beautiful harmony in variety held by the vaishnavas. Rather

they consider that everything must be merged, homogenized into one, to solve

the problems of the world, for there to be freedom from pain. Other than that

they have no solution, but only disturbance.

With the qualifications of humility, patience and forbearance, with no tendency

to seek self-glory, but rather to glorify others and honour their respectable

existence, we can live happily with our neighbours and the whole environment.

Mahaprabhu has given this solution to us and we are to equip ourselves in this

way. Why should you think your neighbour to be undesirable? You are not to

complain against the environment but you are to control yourself and come to

the proper understanding. With proper adjustment you will find everything to be

harmonious, the desired land of your life. At home you shall find everything.

Srila B.R.Sridara Maharaj

***If only we could live up to the above, even amongst ourselves, perhaps Shvu prabhu and others might take us a lot more seriously when they're being preached to...

 

------------------

No offense meant to anyone...

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

If only we could live up to the above, even amongst ourselves, perhaps Shvu prabhu and others might take us a lot more seriously when they're being preached to...

 

 

Dear Amanpeter

 

Thanks for your overview

of the condition amongst us

Although

Only those that have reached

can truly preach

Surely

We are all friends

Boisterously pushing each other

Closer to the Jamuna

 

Talasiga

[dasanudas]

No problem with a little opposition, so long as it draws out the best in us all, not the offensive and defensive worst. I think devotees need to read who they are communicating with and respond accordingly. So long as we realize there's one of Krsna's potential friends within every living entity that He has arranged for us to meet. 'The environment is our friend coming to help us.'

Remove all obstacles and allow me the vision to see it as favourable for my nessacary development.

Dissolve my illusions, doubts and ignorance of my false ego with the torchlight of your mercy.

Show me the way of the compassionate souls that I too may walk in their footsteps. Convince me Radha-Krsna live in the heart of Their devotee. That They are a tangible reality, Let me see them dance in your words and example, and help me to join that great dance, with joy in my heart and true humility in my soul.

[shvu]

 

My previous post on this thread, vanished after some time.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Jndas;

 

This kind of argument, "You do seem to have found such a saint, so perhaps approach him humbly and request him to enable you to see things clearly. If you forgot who I am refering to, it is your spiritual master Srila Narayana Maharaja. Remember him?" also do not help to corroborate your thesis that "bhakti is the ultimate goal beyond mukti."

 

If I do remember my spiritual master or not, is a private subject matter, and you can ask me personally if you want. Do you want to see some very dirty things published in these forums?

 

[Guest guest]

Sankaracharyya and Buddha both preferred that the ultimate goal be non-differentiated, unknown and unknowable, and they finished there. Do you wish to go there? Elimination of all diversity may be a very peaceful position, a deep slumber, and that is their goal.(Dasanudasa)

 

According to Bhaktivinoda (Jaiva-dharma), a great Gaudiya theologian from last century, Sankara has left open the conception of mukti. In other words Sankara has never discussed what happens after mukti. He only has paved a way until the door of mukti. As the Ultimate Reality is attained by an individual and unique path, and Its experience is also individual and unique, It cannot be described in details, but only by the old Upanisadic way. Upanishadic hymns sing the intuitive knowledge one should acquire in order to get a glimpse of the absolute, who created the Nature and self. These Upanishads do not designate that Absolute to be so and so with such and such shape or size or format, but show you your own way to realize that Absolute. These are Sankara's teachings, as well as Ramanuja's, Madhva's and other Vedanta-acaryas.

Vedanta-acaryas are proposers of philosophy's Absolute Truth. They are not explaining a religious process. There is a great difference between philosophy's Absolute and religion's God. The God aspect is not vividly described in these Upanishad, but because there is an Absolute present as ' a priori ' it is decided that He must be the God .

 

The religion's God is described in smrti and Tantric texts. This God may present countless aspects according religious tendencies, most of them merely mythological. They describe God's aspects, attributes, abodes, and so on. Are they all real? Or most are only sectarian viewpoints?

 

While describing the Ultimate Reality all texts consider It as a non-dual substance. Are those aspects such forms and abodes non-dual?

 

Gaudiya acaryas are exposing a religious God, that must to be dual. But the Vedic God, the Ultimate Reality is non-dual. Trying to harmonize both conceptions of God they made the philosophy of acintya-bedha-abheda-tattva. But obviously no one can find any evidence in sruti about a hybrid God like that.