Why does everyone always blame the Jews?

[stonehearted]

yasodanandana: please avoid to scandalize people using terms and concepts that , for now, are not very well accepted. . . . everything: temples, culture, vedas, varnashrama, archana, sarees, dothis, pakora and sandesh, yantras and svastikas are inside the holy name of the lord.

 

yasodanandana prabhu, I don't think Kulapavana's purpose is to scandalize anyone. I think his deliberate use of Aryan is meant to be provocative, but, I hope, in the sense of thought provoking. If he can lure folks to Srila Prabhupada's books, they will see that, as he says, the propaganda of Nazia and neo-Nazis of the last 80 years will be shown as just the foolish bodily consciousness Srila Prabhupada repeatedly says it is. I'm willing to encourage him in his effort, especially if carried out in good company and with careful guidance, and see where it goes. There is of course some danger that it may be misunderstood, but that's always there in Kali yuga.

[Kulapavana]

Thank you for understanding stonehearted prabhu. Yes, the word "Aryan" was chosen deliberatly by me for it's thought provoking potential on top of it's true meaning. Very often I manage to create positive interest in the Vedic message in people for whom this word really means something: good... or bad. The longing for ideal society is expressed by many people, and in many ways. Some of these expressions are very perverted (like in neo-nazis), yet the longing is there and can be used to present Krishna consciousness to these people. One of the things that attracted me to Prabhupada many years ago was his revolutionary social message. That part of his mission is still unfulfilled...

[stonehearted]

Kulapavana: The longing for ideal society is expressed by many people, and in many ways. . . . One of the things that attracted me to Prabhupada many years ago was his revolutionary social message.

 

Along with the maha-mantra, I was very attracted by a couple of things. One was the idea expressed in the SB 1.1.2 purport quotation I use as a signature here. Another was Srila Prabhupada's accurate characterization of Kali-yuga late in the 1st Canto (that, the abridged Gita, and TLLC were the extent of our books when I joined) and his assertion that the only way to oevercome Kali's influence was constant chanting of Krishna's holy names. There was also the Bhagavatam's assertion that is is meant to effect a revolution in our hearts. And yet another was his idea of a society founded on cleaniness, austerity, mercy, and truthfulness. These together showed me that this was the revolution for which we were all looking. So even though I had already promised myself I would never join anything again (I had gotten out of the Navy a few months before), I found myself moving into the Honolulu temple in early 1970, some time before Gaura Purnima.

[yasodanandana]

"yasodanandana prabhu, I don't think Kulapavana's purpose is to scandalize anyone. I think his deliberate use of Aryan is meant to be provocative, but, I hope, in the sense of thought provoking."

 

yes.. and i apologize with you and kulapavana prabhu, this is due to my little english vocabulary.. provocative is much better then scandalizing

 

but i repeat, i am in a country where so much people were killed by nazi and fascists, where now these things are newly coming out in politics..... i do not want that even one guest approaching the mahamantra would be disturbed by secondary things like swastik or something like that

 

a very well known italian devotee architecht (prabhupada's disciple) was telling to me about harikesha that, building nrsmha ksetra temple room (germany!!!), wanted to decorate with svastiks...... ehem

[stonehearted]

I certainly understand your sensitvity, as well as any Jews who may be put off by these things. Harikesha wanting to decorate the temple in Germany with swastikas shouldn't be much of a surprise, I guess, for those of us who have seen evidence of his mental state for a long time. Even though he had such problems, he did a lot on Srila Prabhupada's behalf. It's too bad his other exploits tend to obscure that in many ways.

[Kulapavana]

No apology needed Yasodanandana, and I'm quite used to this kind of reaction in many devotees. Once the initial shock wears out they all see the light. I do not use the swasti yantra at all in my presentations. That would be seriously overdoing it... ;-)

Regarding the use of swastiks in Lord Nrisimha temple in Bavaria: it would have blended perfectly with this fierce and beautiful black form of Lord Krishna, and I'm sure it would have endeared us to the locals, but swastik display is illegal in Germany (humor intended).

Half of my family was killed fighting nazis in WW2 and believe me I understand the sensitivities and have no personal inclination in that direction.

[yasodanandana]

yes harikesha did a lot... i am sorry if i gave the impression to criticize this devote in all his service

[yasodanandana]

no prabhu, i have not reactions like many devotees... simply i am italian and i do not know 100 ways to say the same thing in english

 

devotees are different, and devotees see the light in every moment

 

i apologize....

[Guest guest]

Actually I think the "slow and steady" model is one ISKCON should adopt, rather than the one it is using currently. The trend in ISKCON and other sister societies is to go out and do widespread chanting and preaching - a very glorious endeavor indeed. But once people start showing an interest and decide they want to live in the temple, the devotees turn their attention away from the "new recruits" to look for more. The result is that newbies to the temple don't get much close attention or personal cultivation, and often end up getting burnt out and leaving.

 

The same is true of guru-disciple relationships. The trend has been for gurus to have many disciples all over the world, with the result being that it is impossible to stay in any one area for too long and cultivate any of them.

 

Of course, the above are generalizations. But the older paradigm has much we can learn from: children were enrolled at the age of 5 in a gurukula and studied the Vedas for at least 12 years if not more, and learned them thoroughly before moving on to other stages of life which would expose them to more sense gratification. Perhaps Gaudiya Mathas and ISKCON branches could follow a similar model: bring new recruits in, cultivate them by engaging them in systematic study of our core scriptures over several years, and only after a certain mastery of the literature (say, BG As It Is for 1st initiation and SB +/- CC for 2nd initiation) should initiation be given, along with the accompanying responsibilities.

 

Of course, during the period of "cultivation," the disciples can be engaged in other services as well. The key component is systematic teaching of the canonical Gaudiya literatures. The result would be mature understanding and hopefully stronger conviction (and hopefully less fanaticism).

 

All of these are ideas only.

[Sephiroth]

I think that maybe, someone should change the name of the thread from "why everyone blaming Jews?" to "why everyone blaming ISKCON?"

[Guest guest]

Part of answer is also in "holy "Talmud itself. Talmud warn jews no to tell what Judaism is all about otherwise they would be killed. Perhaps one of the few teachings that can be taken seriously.

 

Like most jews always claim. Islam and xianity are milder offshoots of Judaism. Judaism is the oldest and is the inspiration of many idiotic things in xianity and Islam. Many barbaric religious teachings in Islam that caused Indians so much trouble are actually an echo of jewish teachings. Islam and Judaism are brothers, with Islam beeing the less ugly one and a bit "friendlier " in its teachings ( can you imagine ! /images/graemlins/grin.gif ).

 

Some similarities :

Circumcission. First introduced by the Jews. This is the socalled covenant people made Abraham of Ur. God is "connected " with people who injure their genitals. They dont eat pork and believe in eternal hell for others. Both mention idolaters should be killed withot mercy. Thats a very important teaching in Koran and has its origin in Jewish Torah/ old testament.

 

Some high spirituality in Old testament. The JEWISH TORAH :

 

"Do not allow others to worship a different god. Conquer them and destroy their religious property." Exodus 23:24

 

"Whoever that does not seek the God of Israel should be executed. Chronicles 15:13

 

"Good news " for hindus.

 

" But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. Destroy the altars, images, and places of worship of those with different religions. "Deuteronomy 7 :5

 

This Jewish teachings were the basis for Islam.

 

7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

 

Jewish view of others.

 

lets look at the Talmud :

 

A Gentile (non-jew) girl who is three years old can be violated." -- .9boda Sarah 37a /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

"A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy"--Tosefta, Qbda Zara VIRZ, 5.

 

"Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile(heathen )." ( Baba Kamma 113a.)

 

The jew can rightfullly say stealing, lying , killing and raping etc. is forbidden according to jewish law but forgets to mentions this counts not for non-jews.

Jew teachings became quite impoplulair ( understatement ) in europe. An image appeared of the " always lying jew" who try to kill young xian kids. The king of France asked them to reject parts of the talmud, especially the anti-non jew parts, the comments to kill non-jews and the violating of non-jew girls, many jews did reject them but others insisted these teachings belong to jewish tradition.

 

So the persecution, killing and chasing out went on in Europe. After they were pressed to leave Spain, they could find refuge in xian Poland and especially by the Islamic Ottoman Turks who welcomed them. Untill today the jews are gratefull to the muslem turks who saved their lives in medieval times and WO II.

link : 100.000 Jews saved by turkmoslems

 

Anyway, After the climax of WO II the british enabled the jews to settle in Israel, they finally recieved some land after 3000 years slavery and humiliation. But untill today the jews have not found rest and it almost looks like their pain will never end. Some will say god wants them to suffer for thousands of years to test their faith, others call it the logical result of their teachings and others will say it must be their karma. Who knows?

 

Their Karma might have to do with their teachings. For anyone who want to know more about Judaism and also read about horror, angry god, plunder, rape and killing idolaters, the jewish Torah ( old testament ) is a must !

 

The jews get the credits for introducing the high concepts of :

 

circumcission ( mutilating genitals )

fear for a always jealous and punishing god

religious plunder

hell for all others

and very important.....the merciless killing of idolaters and others of non-jew faith.

 

Yep..100 % jewish teachings. The Jews were never in the position to execute their teachings fully in later time they did in the beginning ) but xians and especially Jewish twin Islam took care of that. Yeah.. Hindus can be "gratefull " for the teachings that Jews introduced!

[Guest guest]

{A Gentile (non-jew) girl who is three years old can be violated." -- .9boda Sarah 37a

 

"A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy."--Tosefta, Qbda Zara VIRZ, 5.

 

"Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile(heathen )." ( Baba Kamma 113a.)

 

The jew can rightfullly say stealing, lying , killing and raping etc. is forbidden according to jewish law but forgets to mentions this counts not for non-jews.}

 

Wow! Well I'm quite shocked at that, I thought it was just muslims with teachings like that. I'm sure most people don't know about these teachings. Maybe that's one of the reasons Jesus was a rebel against Jewish teachings.

 

But I think with Hindus, they have had a better history of experience with the jews than the muslims, so that's why they don't dislike jews like they do the muslims. But the Jews didn't convert Hindus, whereas the muslims killed them if they refused to convert and tried their best to destroy Hinduism in India. That's why muslims and chirstians have a bad reputation with the hindus.

[Guest guest]

yeah Judaism was the basis for some things in xianity and especially Islam. Thats why you will often hear Jews claim they have the "original" thing.

 

[ "Wow! Well I'm quite shocked at that, I thought it was just muslims with teachings like that. I'm sure most people don't know about these teachings. Maybe that's one of the reasons Jesus was a rebel against Jewish teachings."]

 

Many prophets in Koran are the ancient jewish profets. I dont favour xianity more then Islam but your right..tradition has it that jesus rebelled against most of those teachings. Some jewish teachings are nevertheless still found it the new testament but they surely cut out the most barbaric thing.

 

[ "But I think with Hindus, they have had a better history of experience with the jews than the muslims, so that's why they don't dislike jews like they do the muslims. But the Jews didn't convert Hindus, whereas the muslims killed them if they refused to convert and tried their best to destroy Hinduism in India. That's why muslims and chirstians have a bad reputation with the hindus. "]

 

True that jews were never in the position to execute their teachings in India. Surviving must have been more important for them. It IS nevertheless their tradition that teaches them to kill idolaters and belongs to the core of Judaism. Read old testament and "shiver"! Offcourse you will find sometimes ( rarely )a few nicier things but it makes Koranic teachings look "friendly". /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Central theme is that Jews are the choosen ones and the rest either to be killed or at best tolerated under certain circumstances. Their god is constanly angry and warns to kill its followers , sends plagues etc etc!

 

Killing btw is not only restricted to europeans/xians and arabs/moslems btw. many buddhists and hindus in India , ceylon and SEA engaged in slaughting and destroying temples too( did you know ? )but at least it is not ordered by religion unlike Judaism and its milder twin Islam.

 

 

 

[Sephiroth]

And how much is this, may I know is not due to corruption of Christians who rewrite the Bible?

 

We know that Jewish Traditions is transfered from mouth to mouth for nearly 1,300 years before Christianity come to play. And it was another 600 years before Islam come. During this time, Christianity tried to "break" into Greek society and activately modifying religion (which they allegedly took from Jews) according to Greek Mythology. This includes the justification of war against non-Christians.

 

And then, Islam took this already corrupted teaching (and admitted it openly also), follow it blindly and add their own justification of war inside the already corrupted teachings.

 

So, you see ... Jewish Tradition means those who people follow during their exile in Egypt to the point of Moses's departure. Anything else is subjected to careful study by the Elders before they are allowed to be followed by youngsters ... unlike Muslim fatwa where every tom, dick and donkey can make with their own interpretation of their Al Quran (which is based on corruption of Christianity and their own god, Muhammad).

[Guest guest]

Jews have been prosecuted by two biggest religions in the world for very very stupid reasons. Now Jerusalem might turn out to be a trigger place for final fight between two biggest religions..any attack on Israel or any new war in Mid East can very quickly escalate in the region sitting on the tinderbox..

[Sephiroth]

Jewish settlement exists near a Mosque where Muslims claim the Real Jesus going to come down and lead them (Muslims) to victory against Christians (who corrupted his teachings.

 

Muslims have claimed that Jews had killed prophets of Gods (such as Jesus) in horrible way, so Muslims fear that, if Jerusalem remains in hands of Jews, Jews are going to kill Jesus AGAIN.

 

This is stupid because :

 

1. Jesus never killed in the first place so they are accusing Jews of being guilty of something they never did and Muslims admitted it in their Al Quran also. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

2. Their claims that Jews can kill Jesus who is destined for something is like saying there is no God and God will not protect His Chosen One. Who's insulting God and His prophet now? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

 

And finally, according to their End of Time prophecy (Doomsday), they say Judgement Day WILL NOT occur till Muslims and Jews had made peace with each other (and maybe united against Christians).

 

So, many Muslims nowadays are like animals, living in sin because they are not capable of following their Islamic beliefs (which is false if compare to Buddhism and Hindusm). So, this people live in fear that Judgement Day will come and they will force to stand before God and be judge accordingly.

 

And for most of you, damnation to Hell in Islam is for eternity so you can imagine the nightmares they must be having due to this.

[Guest guest]

Correct!

[Guest guest]

I guess there are no brick layers and plumbers in Israel?