Who were the Aryans?

[Gauracandra]

Here is I think an unbiased view of the Washington skeletal find, sort of a brief overview:

 

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2000/06/07/bones.html

 

The 60 minutes interview I recall did mention that the scientist examining this believe the person was caucasian, and if so would rewrite the history books.

 

I do agree that we really are in the dark about our ancient history. Where did we come from? Scientists are good people trying their best to find the truth. But really a lot of it is connecting dots, and then building a story around those dots. They don't truly know, and thats why things constantly get rewritten (kind of ties in with Who is a true historian on another thread).

 

One thing quickly about those China mummies I recall from the program. Its been a while so the details are a bit sketchy. But they had various tatoos on their body, I think they were yellowish and were various swirling patterns. But they also concluded they knew some form of acupuncture, as there were needle markings around various parts of the spine, in locations known for relieving pain. I'm a little fuzzy on this, but it was something along those lines. It was interesting in that it showed a certain subtlety and knowledge among these people.

[xxvvii]

 

More pictures of the desert mummies of China can be found here:

http://www.discovery.com/stories/history/desertmummies/desertmummies.html

 

I saw this program on the Discovery channel quite some time ago. These mummies are over 4,000 years old, possess white features, and the clothing they wore were like tartan patterns. We have the Aryan Invasion Theory that posits that white Europeans came from Europe into India bringing the Vedic culture. Could these mummies in China be the individuals on their continuing trek across the continent?

 

 

You're unfamiliar the history of central asia. In prehistoric age, there lived the race with hairs of various colors - brown, red, & golden. I recommand a book to you if you can find it.

 

Die Seidenstrasse

---- Hans-Joachim Klimkeit, 1989, GFR.

[Guest guest]

the greeks called them the tocharoi,

so now the name tocharian is used for these people.

Linguists have come to the conclusion that their language has many similarities to

celtic ,italic and other european dialects.

 

Their clothes is similar to to the celts,also the celts had red hair ,and blond,like the tocharians.

 

They became buddhists and their language was deciphered using ancient scripture written in pali ,sanskrit ,and tocharian.

 

they lived in Xinjiang(shin-jong),

at the foot of the himalayas ,

where the silk road went into and out of china.

 

The desert there now,was not always there,it used to be much wetter,and was a major trading center.

 

They are believed to have migrated from eastern europe,but it's anyone's guess.

 

Interesting fact,coca,tobacco,and ganja,

were used in the mummification process.

 

The only known source of coca and tobacco was the Americas.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

http://www.harekrsna.org/The%20laws%20of%20Manu.pdf

 

CHAPTER X.

 

20. Those (sons) whom the twice-born beget on wives of equal caste, but who, not fulfilling their sacred duties, are excluded from the Savitri, one must designate by the appellation Vratyas.

 

21. But from a Vratya (of the) Brahmana (caste) spring the wicked Bhriggakantaka, the Avantya, the Vatadhana, the Pushpadha, and the Saikha.

 

22. From a Vratya (of the) Kshatriya (caste), the Ghalla, the Malla, the Likkhivi, the Nata, the Karana, the Khasa, and the DRAVIDA.

 

23. From a Vratya (of the) Vaisya (caste) are born a Sudhanvan, an Akarya, a Karusha, a Viganman, a Maitra, and a Satvata.

 

So I think all this nonsense about the Aryan-Dravidian divide is fabricated to serve the interests of British government during their stay in India. It has always been the interest of the Vatican and zealous christians to slander Vedic religion in one way or other. What better way to do this than make the venerable Rishis who provided Hindus with Vedas look like conquering barabarians. Religion always influences people the way they think. The best way to conquer India for the British is to destroy Vedic religion. The AIT does this exactly.

[Guest guest]

the peoples known today as tocharians lived in the tarim basin bordering on tibet, india and afganistan...they are believed, as evidenced by the mummies, to be more 'european' in feature than 'asian' coupled with the 'tartan' like fabrics they were buried with...

now my questions are (and i admit i am biased as i am one)

1) could they be a proto-celtic peoples? or even strait up celts?

2) i have heard that these peoples were also, later upon its arrival, buddhist, and may be partly repsonsible for the transmission of such into china...i have also heard that Bodhidharma had red hair...could he be Tocharian?

 

just a few niggling things from the back of my fevered reptilian brain...

 

cormag

[Guest guest]

here

 

http://northernway.org/school/onwarticles.html

[dhaa]

 

...However, from what I understand Zoroastrians fully accept that they came from the North, a place of snow...

 

 

 

perhaps refering to the end of the ice age?

 

according to http://encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/12_early_civilizations.htm

 

As a natural process of renovation of world civilizations, ice ages come. Blanketing most of the Southern and Northern Hemispheres of the earth planet with trillions of tons of ice for millions of years they bury and destroy all the civilizations in its area. It stretches up to the major parts of Europe including England. Its spine chilling below freezing winds shoot cold waves all over the continent which shatters the rest of the civilizations. India is not much affected by the ice ages because it is in the tropical zone and the range of the Himalayan hills protects it from the cold winds of the deep North. So its ancient civilization continues without interruption.

 

The last ice age receded around 10,000 years ago. It took some time to develop the normal conditions of living. The survivors of the ice age were small groups of people who were living a nomadic life. They spread all over the southern parts of Europe and the middle parts of Asia, the Gulf countries, some parts of North America, South America and Africa...

[Guest guest]

In their eagerness to establish that Aryans were original Indian inhabitants, the pro-Aryans would go to any limit. They would say it was colonial interests of divide and rule, or the European superirity complex that tries to establish Aryans belong to the Indo-European race. What the Europeans are going to benefit, when they say prior to the settlement of Aryans, there existed a civilization?

 

There is undisputable linguistic, anthropological and genetic evidence. This has been repeatedly discussed here on this site. There are vedic references too.

 

There existed a society or societies of people prior to the advent of the Aryans. Shiva and Bhairava, Chandi and Chamundeswari were the ruling deities. You will still see in the far-flung South and the North-Eastern hill tracts people who devotedly worship these deities only. They hold a different cultural and linguistic heritage. Some of them are proved to be staying on this peninsula from pre-historic times.

 

May be new theories might be brought in that the Aryans brought in slaves from Africa to look after their pastoral lands!

[Priitaa]

 

There existed a society or societies of people prior to the advent of the Aryans. Shiva and Bhairava, Chandi and Chamundeswari were the ruling deities. You will still see in the far-flung South and the North-Eastern hill tracts people who devotedly worship these deities only. They hold a different cultural and linguistic heritage. Some of them are proved to be staying on this peninsula from pre-historic times.

 

 

1-Are you therefore saying that prior to devotees of Krishna on this planet, there were devotees of Shiva?

 

2-If so, are you saying you believe Shiva is God? What is your opinion on this? As you probably know, most of us here believe Krishna as the first, one and only Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore everything originated from Him. Please give us your proof.

 

 

May be new theories might be brought in that the Aryans brought in slaves from Africa to look after their pastoral lands!

 

 

3-I find this hard to believe. Will also need proof.

 

Thank you for your time. Hare Krishna.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

First, I am neither a Shaiva, nor a Vaishnava. I am a Hindu who believes in eternal values, the values that are sanatana. And the cause and effect of these values is the Pure Consciousness, that is, the Supreme Brahman. The Formless that It is, you may realize through forms.

 

When I talked about Shiva, In this particular instant, I was talking about about the Peninsular India, not of the entire planet and of history.

 

Shiva and Shakti, Kali and Chandi were the ruling deities of this land prior to the advent and domination of vaishnavism. If we debate on this with evidences, it is worth a book itself.

 

But know it that Shiva and Shakti temples across this land and in obscure adivasi dwellings, is of great antiquity. There are enough tribas in India who have not even heard of Vishnu, but Shiva they had been worshipping for ages. You will not find any prominent Vaishnava temples of prominence which is more than a millennia old either in the South( except one or two)or in the North-East.Rama is of recent origin in the South. But you will find Shiva and Shakti temples of great antiquity there.

Regards

[Guest guest]

 

what were the interests of the europeans

in teaching the aryan invasion theory ?

 

they were at the time dividing up India among

the various east india companies, if it came out

that india was the mother country for european civilization then their exploitation in the name

of civilizing the godless heathens would not

be accepeted by the home countries.

 

there is no actual evidence to support aryan invasion,

plenty to support otherwise, all so called evidence has been discredited.

 

The aryans were shaivites and vaisnavas,

the so called pre aryan theory of india has no

actual data to support it, all can be shown to be varieties of indian culture, as their is today a great variety of languages, beliefs and races in India,

it has always been like that.

[Guest guest]

 

the aryan invasion theorists try and use the rg veda

to prove their theory, why then is all places in the rg veda in India, and no place outside of India is even mentioned ?

[Guest guest]

try this

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/aryan-invasion.html

 

 

for more links try this

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/links_to_other_websites.htm

 

 

[Priitaa]

Thank you for answering my questions.

 

That expalins it. We are not Hindus. Krishna consciousness is different from Hinduism.

 

As far as any 'formless' being superior or realized thru forms, or impersonal brahmana is concerend, and I have heard all this before, I dont know what Gita you are reading, but that is mistaken idea at best. I humbly suggest you give Prabhupada's a chance. If the ancient scriptures are not translated by a pure devotee, all sorts of misunderstandings manifest as if shastra, when they are not. Try:

 

http://www.asitis.com

 

 

 

Shiva and Shakti, Kali and Chandi were the ruling deities of this land prior to the advent and domination of vaishnavism. If we debate on this with evidences, it is worth a book itself.

 

 

I'll take the book. ha I don't go on blind faith and revealed Vedic literature tells us otherwise.

 

 

 

But know it that Shiva and Shakti temples across this land and in obscure adivasi dwellings, is of great antiquity. There are enough tribas in India who have not even heard of Vishnu, but Shiva they had been worshipping for ages. You will not find any prominent Vaishnava temples of prominence which is more than a millennia old either in the South( except one or two)or in the North-East.Rama is of recent origin in the South. But you will find Shiva and Shakti temples of great antiquity there.

 

 

Merely because some did not know about Vaisnavism does not mean it did not exist. Karma or whatever reasons, can cause someone to take birth in an area that they are kept in ignorance. I would need further evidence than this. According to Vedic literatures, there have been Krishna temples on this planet forever

 

I think I shall look at Shiva's links as soon as I get a few minutes.

 

Wishing you well. Hare Krishna.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Krishna temples forever on the planet? hmm....

 

Ever wondered,

 

1. Why Krishna is not mentioned by name in any of the 4 Veda-s?

 

2. Why there exists no record of Krishna in any other country?

 

3. Why none of the seal found in the harappa/saraswati civilization show Krishna -- but show pictures of Shiva and the mother goddess/Shakti?

 

The simple answer is Krishna is a much later product of Indian religion which of course, will sound heretical to the Hare Krishnas.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

Krishna consciousness is confidental knowledge. It is not to be taken cheaply. In this age of kali, with information so much at our fingertips, we often forget that in the past yugas one had to be a brahmana at the very least to study the Gita, for example. Or that people can at first barely handle the concept of an impersonal God or God as light, or a 'formless' God, etc, thus to tell them of this Personal Transcendental Form of Krishna is too much for them to accept. Or to give His mantra and therefore Name away, it use to be difficult info to obtain! There are many other such examples. So we must not take advantage. We now have knowledge that many others did not have. Of course, if one insists on looking at it from material perspective, or accepting material literature as authoratitive, or even certain Vedas are not all the highest but are stepping stones up to Personalism of Krishna (when one is finally 'ready'), thus it will be hard for those who take shelter of these things to see.

[Priitaa]

Last post was by Prtha. Forgot to log in. Sorry.

 

YS,

Prtha

[Guest guest]

 

yes ,that is the simple answer, and also

the wrong one.

 

How much actual evidence is there today that has

been discovered for ancient bharat varsa ?

 

very little, in fact extremely little, to then conjecture

that the entire ancient world can be deduced from

the little that has been found intact is pre mature

and un scientific.

 

India's extremes of weather reduce wood,paper, and even

stone to dust ,quickly, unlike the hot dry climates

of mesopatamia and egypt.

 

Also re use of ancient devices through out millenia increases the destruction

of those artifacts leaving little left for us to find.

 

so what little actual physical evidence is scant

and cannot give a satifactory explanation,

one must use other means .

 

language and cultural means are left,anthropology.

 

And all sources and studies of these things points

to ancient india being much like modern india,

many different belief systems, most incorporating

vedic concepts, either shaivite,vaisnava,

shaktism, or other tribal influences.

 

to reduce your vision of ancient india based on the infinitesimal amount of data that has retrieved

and ignoring the cultural and linguistic

points will leave you with the incorrect

assumptions that modern indian beliefs are of a recent

concoction due to not having older artifacts.

[Priitaa]

So Prabhupada is giving us the 'wrong' answer?

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

i was answering the previous post by guest,

saying that the simple answer was that all modern hinduism

is a recent concoction.

[Priitaa]

Ok. Only that when you say something is "wrong," that is different from saying it is "simple." But let's just say this clears it up. Thanks.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

Aryans originated in Aryavarta which is the whole of India and Aryavarta. aryans also originated in Iran which bordered Arytavarta. No Dravidian Race exists this word means South. Only the people of aryvarta and Iran are the original Aryans.

[Guest guest]

yes,

 

and aryan is not a race.

hare krishnas also are aryans

since they started worshipping krishna.

 

jai sri prabhupada!

 

 

[dhaa]

the 'aryan' race exists only in the fairy tales of ignorant racists

 

the 'aryans' are said to be from the north like santa claus /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Guest guest]

The purest Aryan Race only exists in India.