JN DAS PRABHUJI PLEASE HELP!

[bhaktajoy]

I posted this stuff on some .

 

"When someone dies in a

war, it is due to his fructified karmas, both from the past and from

the present life. But the person who is killing, he is utilizing his

free will and creating a fresh karmic reaction, which he will suffer

in his next life. Krishna's role as supersoul is as a witness and a

sanctioner. He witnesses our actions so that we will be held

accountable through karmic reactions."

 

I got following reply:-

 

"Dear Joy, Please help me out here if you can. There is something about the above quote that doesnot quite gel with my spirit. How is it that the person who is killing, isn't also reacting to his fructified karmas from the past? I am not clear on why his karmic reaction would be fresh. I mean why would he be killing someone, if he also had not been killed in a past life? The other thing that baffles me a little, is that if Krishna witnesses our actions so that we will be held accountable through karmic reaction, does not such karmic reaction thus generate more of the same, and therefore less of the accountability that Krishna would wish for us? how does being murdered by someone in this present life because of my past action of killing someone in a previous life make one a more accountable person? It is more likely that such an individual would continue the unaccountable behaviour of murdering and being murdered until some form of Forgiveness of self and others, and by self and others enters the picture. Some form of Grace has to enter the arena for that person, for their Awareness to be raised to a place where they can then be accountable. And therefore is Krishna not the source of grace, forgiveness and accountability, or is he just a witness to it as quoted? Is there something I am missing here, and if so can anyone help to clarify what that may be, or do you see the point I am making?"

 

What should I say now?Please help.

[JRdd]

This is a great discussion. I can't wait to see the replies from some of our intelligent knowledgeable forumites here, I myself feel inadequate to the task. But my wee contribution is: reflection on samsara, the seemingly endless wheel of karma, birth and death and rebirth, which indeed can only be stopped by divine mercy. That's why we chant Hare Krsna. That stops the cycle of repeated births and deaths due to the karmic reactionary cycle your respondent described. Of course that does not answer your question, but I think this is an important side note. What about Krsna being witness? He is always there directing us with our utmost interests in mind, but we (or most of us maybe) don't know how to listen much yet. I like that painting in the Bhagavad-gita of the two birds in the tree...

[bhaktajoy]

The group is at www.nde

[shvu]

 

 

What should I say now? Please help.

 

 

 

Do you believe that God is omniscient? If you do, it follows that there is no free will. Because God (being omniscient) already knows and is fully aware of what you will do at any point of time in the future. Therefore, everything is pre-destined and what we will do during the course of our lives is already known.

 

Bin Laden was destined to be a killer, someone else was destined to be killed and so on. Whether these events teach them something or helps them evolve is not known. But in the light of the above truths, it doesn't matter for there is nothing that can be done about it, either way. That answers the questions.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

 

Whatever activity one performs ,be it

murder,killing in defense or war,or any non death activity is creating Karma good or bad depending on the consciousness of the actor and the intent of his action.

 

Karma is created as long as the consciousness of the actor is under the influence of the modes of nature and the illusory energy, Maha-Maya.

 

When an activity is not acted out under the influence of Maya,or the modes of nature,and

performed in knowledge of Dharma and Shastra,with the desire to utilize the result

for the satisfaction of the desire of God,then that action is free from Karma,and situates one on the transcendental platform,which is characterized by Blissfulness,and awareness of eternal knowledge.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

How is it that the person who is killing, isn't also reacting to his fructified karmas from the past?

 

 

The actions we perform are based on our desire and freedom to act. We are consciously making decisions every second of the day, and these choices are not simply determined based on previous karmic reactions. If that were the case, then we would be nothing but clocks, once wound destiny would automatically follow its designed pattern. The future is open for all of us, we have the choice to be pushed along by our inclinations (karma vasanas) or to rise beyond them and establish our own destiny.

 

 

I am not clear on why his karmic reaction would be fresh.

 

 

Very simply, because it is a conscious choice he is making, not a reaction brought on to him without his control. We are all living individuals with consciousness and freewill. It is that execution of freewill in determining "will I do this or not" that creates the fresh reaction.

 

 

The other thing that baffles me a little, is that if Krishna witnesses our actions so that we will be held accountable through karmic reaction, does not such karmic reaction thus generate more of the same, and therefore less of the accountability that Krishna would wish for us?

 

 

Let us look at crime and punishment on a more perceptable scale. Does a states punishing a criminal lead him to more crime or to rectify his ways? The purpose of course is to educate the criminal in the law and to reform him from his life of crime - while simultaneously keeping him from harming others. The criminal may become further entangled in his inner hatred towards the legal system and inthe future carry out more criminal activities despite everything he has experienced - which was for his own welfare as well as that of others. Punishing a criminal brings accountability whether the criminal accepts it or not, both for himself and other would be criminals. Having said that, the laws of karma are reactions to our activities, not simply punishments to keep us in order. In the cyclical universal system, everything we do is ultimately to ourselves, and all energy - both positve and negative - comes back to us through the influence of time. These are natural laws more than just a system of reformation - though that aspect may be included within these laws in some cases.

 

 

It is more likely that such an individual would continue the unaccountable behaviour of murdering and being murdered until some form of Forgiveness of self and others, and by self and others enters the picture. Some form of Grace has to enter the arena for that person, for their Awareness to be raised to a place where they can then be accountable. And therefore is Krishna not the source of grace, forgiveness and accountability, or is he just a witness to it as quoted?

 

 

Ultimately every activity we perform, both good and bad, binds us in the cycle of debt through karmic reactions. The laws of karma are so stringent that we cannot escape any of our dues, no matter how trivial they may be. The entire process becomes completely entangling, for just to receive our due results we automatically perform more binding activities. It is like nuclear reactions which, though started by us, at some stage become uncontrollable. We become enveloped in the cycle of action and reaction, and thereby seemingly lose our true freedom to act.

 

In the Gita Lord Krishna explains the key to become free from this cycle of action and reaction:

 

yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra

loko 'yam karma-bandhanah

tad-artham karma kaunteya

mukta-sangah samacara

 

"Selfless work done as a sacrifice for the divine has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage."

 

All activities bind us more and more, yet it is impossible to remain without action. Therefore we must become instruments of the divine and work selflessly for the Supreme, offering all reactions to Him. This is the only way to free our selves from the bondage of work.

[bhaktajoy]

Jn Das Prabhuji thank you so much for your kind reply!I salute your dedication to Krsna conciousness.God bless u.

[Gauracandra]

I have a question. To what degree does punishment by the government offset one's karma? That is, you steal something, are incarcerated for some time, or kill and are put a way or executed. Is there any way of knowing if you have "burned" off your karmic reactions, or is there more to come?

[Guest guest]

what is important to remember is that

the purpose of life is to be a part of the solution,not a part of the problem.

 

There is a minute amount of free will,shvu

stated there is no free will,if that were true there would be no need for any suffering

and all would be perfection.

 

The truth is that the jiva has a minute amount of free will,minute means extremely

tiny,almost non existent.

 

The fact is that god has written everything out before we act it out.

 

Our sojourn in the "material" world is for the purpose of perfecting our consciousness.

Changing our desire from selfishness and the exploitative mentality,to the mind set of pure giving and inoffensive behavior.

 

Our karmic debt is for our own purification

and enlightenment.

When our time comes we are brought into the association of the transcendental realm.

In the view of the enlightened soul everything is going on according to the plan and guidance of God.

 

There are no deviations, only mistaken

vision.

 

Krishna says "everyone follows my path in ALL respects"

 

No one is free to do as he likes,everything is under constant supervision.

 

The goal is the raising of the subconscious desire from the depths of selfishness and exloitative desire,to the heights of loving Rasa.

[Gauracandra]

It seems to me that karma is only mysterious when it deals with past life reactions. The law of karma, or the law of action and reaction, is experienced every day. For instance, if I walk around with a surly attitude, others will react to me in a similar manner. Or suppose I smoke two packs of cigarettes per day and develop lung cancer. Its not that God is punishing me in any way. It is simply that the natural consequence of a bad activity is a bad reaction. The reaction of smoking on the body is entirely natural - it causes cancer. Perhaps we can call this "everyday karma".

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Or we could call it "Instant Karma" (from the song with the same name).

 

"Instant Karmas gonna get you..."

 

[Avinash]

I smoke two packs of cigarettes per day and develop lung cancer. Its not that God is punishing me in any way. It is simply that the natural consequence of a bad activity is a bad reaction.

 

Just for the sake of argument, assume that you smoke a lot and get lung cancer. Is it not possible that you enjoyed smoking because of something wrong that you did in previous life?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Inclinations and desires will be there from our past lives, but there is nothing that forces you to go through with a decision in the present. Everyone has the power to make their choices, even against their inclinations or spontaneous desires. The karma-vasanas leave a residual impression in the mind, which pushes us towards activities, like the flow of a river. It may be easier to swim with the current (the inclinations), but it is possible to swim against the current. The natural system seems to be to follow the path of least resistance, therefore many people give in to temptation (or the residual impressions from past activities).

 

The choice itself is what determines the future, not the karma-vasanas. It is not because of the inclination to smoke that one develops lung cancer. It is because of the physical activity of smoking, which is brought out by a conscious choice to smoke. The karma-vasanas just facilitate this fate like the flow of the river.

 

[gHari]

As so eloquently said above: :It may be easier to swim with the current (the inclinations), but it is possible to swim against the current."

 

This is Arjuna saying that he will not fight.

 

Krsna then teaches him why and how to "swim against the current".

[gHari]

We cannot know the original sin, buried in our antiquity. During the eons spent encaged in some eight million species of life forms, we were bound to develop so many abominable tastes and habits.

 

Our attachments (desires) and karma are carried with us in our subtle bodies formed of mind, intelligence, and false ego. I like JNdas's word 'inclination' for these, since they are indeed surmountable.

 

Eventually we will be ready. Praising God's names hastens our readiness.

[Guest guest]

--->But the person who is killing, he is utilizing his

free will and creating a fresh karmic reaction, which he will suffer in his next life.

 

Is it correct that anyone who kills in a war is going to suffer in his next life? I think that for kshatriyas it is necessary to kill at times, but war in this day an age, with missiles and bombs that wipe out huge areas (necessarily including women and children and those against the fighting to begin with) does not really conform to dharmic regulations of warfare. Oh, this Kaliyuga! Save us, Krishna!

 

~Vanamali

[atanu]

You have said:

 

“Very simply, because it is a conscious choice he is making, not a reaction brought on to him without his control. We are all living individuals with consciousness and freewill. It is that execution of freewill in determining "will I do this or not" that creates the fresh reaction.”

 

 

I contend:

 

How do we decide: “will I do this or not”? Each Jiva decides according to his own nature (actually, depending on each person’s level of entanglement with Maya). For example, material possessions hold not much importance to me but to another, possessions are of paramount importance. So, the decisions vary according to nature.

 

Now, did (as a small self) I have any control over my nature at the time of birth? I had no control. So, one gets entangled in Karma cycle right from the time a dress (body) is acquired.

 

Krishna tells Arjuna: Whether you are perturbed or not, you will fight because of nature. Now who has control over this nature?

 

Only the Gods, Avatars, and Self realized Jivas have control because their will and the will of super soul are not different. They are free, liberated.

 

On the other hand, for a Jiva (like me), who is full of desires, there is no free will. For Jivas, “Free Will” is a contradictory thing. It is a term coined by materialistic philosophers, mostly of the Occident. When there is a small will (will of the small self), how can one be free? One will be tied to that will and more and more karma will be accumulated. Since, will of small self is sure to conflict with will of another small self, there will be clashes etc.

 

There is no Free Will for small selfs. Small self wills and acts as per instinctive nature, which is not under self’s control.

 

 

Raman Maharshi said that there is only one choice for Jivas who have begun to know of God. Since God’s grace is constant, the choice for such a Jiva is whether he will seek God actively or remain lazy and then eventually again forget God. For other Jiva’s (Asuras) – who yet do not know the One God, there is no free will. They are absolutely subjugated to their instinctive nature – over which only Vinayaka has control (That’s why He is there on your site as well).

 

 

One answer to original question of this thread may be:

 

Inherent tendencies – the nature or Maya

 

The closest absolute definition of God is that He is Sat-Chit-Anand (Existence-Consciousness-Bliss). I have had a nagging doubt about this. If God is Sat-Chit-Anand, then where was the need for this differentiated universe? This differentiated universe is at the source of all pains; this all religions agree. The sense of separateness gives rise to pain of defeat, pain of loss, pain of longing, pain of separation, pain of cancer, and pain of death. Why should God be source of these if He was pure Sat-Chit-Anand. Or should mortal man take all guilt for the pains, leaving God in pure Existence-Consciousness-Bliss state.

Siva-Ramana tells me that this knowledge is incomplete. He is not Sat-Chit-Anand alone, which is only a progressed state of HIM but He is a more primal Sat-Asat (existence-nonexistence) composed of two opposing tendencies. These two tendencies are balanced in Him as a whole but not balanced properly in the differentiated parts that arise from Him due to play of these two fundamental opposing tendencies.

 

Before we proceed further, an introduction on Sat-Chit-Anand may be required for some. Everything in this universe may exist in one of the four possible states. First, a state of waking wherein one perceives the differentiated universe. Sages know this to be Maya or illusion. This does not mean that the objects of the waking state are unreal. It only means that waking state objects are not permanent vis-à-vis the permanent substratum that gives rise to these objects. Actually clinging to such non-permanent objects is the fundamental cause of all pains. The second state is of dreaming wherein again objects are not permanent. The only difference between the waking and the dream state is in the scale of time related to permanence of objects. In both the waking and the dream state, the mind senses the appearances as the objective real. And only when one comes out of the state that one knows about the dream. The third state is of deep sleep wherein mind dissociates from objects – put to rest to cool down, and lo there is no external universe although the jiva exists. The fourth state is Turiya state. This state is special and attained only by diligent meditations. If you, while waking, can stop all thoughts of the mind – put it to rest like in deep sleep state or in other words, absorb the mind in the substratum that underlies it, then you will lose the sense of the differentiated universe. You will only know presence of an unchanging effulgence without any form or shape in it and associated with the effulgence there will be a knowledge of ‘I-I’ or ‘I am’. This knowledge of ‘I am’ is different from the knowledge of ‘I am this’, since there will be no body and egoity in this state. Since all pains reside in body and mind, you will feel no pain and the sensation is indeed one of bliss. This sensation is Sat-Chit-Anand – knowledge of a pure blissful existence.

 

 

But if Siva was Sat-Chit-Anand only, then why would he create a painful differentiated world. Siva is somewhat like zero and 1of binary number system. The entire differentiated world of computational technology with different states (different memory systems of differing permanence and various knowledge residing in these memory systems) arise from the binary system. The two opposing tendencies -- physicists may prefer to call these tendencies as forces, are: a tendency to undifferentiated union (universalism) and another tendency to differentiation (individualism). Each of these tendencies has inbuilt in it the seed for the opposite tendency. Sat-Chit-Anand may be bliss but being undifferentiated who will feel the joy and who will know the Lord and who will praise Him? Know that when you praise another Jiva for his excellent deed, you are praising the Lord and the Lord wanted it that way. Moreover, bliss can be boring if it is a continuous unbroken and undifferentiated divine light only. So there is the seed of wish, desire and lust (need) for variety – lust for form, fame, taste, touch etc in the undifferentiated Lord. This gives rise to differentiated forms to satisfy His wishes. On the other hand, when different forms exist and are rampant, the pains associated with such strife filled temporary existence become overwhelming and a need is felt by the differentiated entities to go back to the undifferentiated existence. So, the undifferentiated Lord creates differentiation and thus differentiated entities eventually go back to the one ness.

 

 

The tendency to oneness is characterized by Devas and the tendency to differentiation is characterized by Asuras. Both the Devas and Asuras (demons) are forms of the Lord.

The demonic and divine qualities reside in primordial state of Siva and are not bad or good inherently but are tendencies only. They are bad or good to differentiated objects in relative terms. The Biblical story of tasting of the forbidden fruits by Adam and Eve as beginning of the evil universe exemplifies the sin at the beginning. But Adam and Eve are nothing but Siva and Parvati.

 

 

An individual is free of guilt and pain when he knows that the tendencies that cause conflict emanate from Prakriti. Individual is not the doer. Every individual, depending on his state of evolution, has a mix of both the tendencies in varying proportion. An individual may be moving towards the pinnacle of demonic qualities only to oscillate back towards his divine odyssey. The law of cause and effect relates to these fundamental tendencies only. One, who through contemplation and meditation, has learnt one’s position in the cause and effect spectrum and has learnt to balance the Demon and the Divine within, has attained peace.

 

 

Siva tells that a man on demonic trail has to sweat to earn name, taste, touch, and possess and bind different forms as objects of sensual enjoyments, only to attain pain but a man on divine odyssey has only to meditate on the Sat. For such a man all attainments and possessions and tastes are temporary and unworthy.

 

 

J. N. Dasji, forgive my transgression.

 

Atanu