Rodent infestation, ok to kill?

[dna]

I have a rodent infestation in my house. I have used mouse traps, but they're not effective. I feel real guilty doing it, but I see no other means to get rid of them. In these circumstances is it ok to kill them, maybe by having an exterminator come over?

[stonehearted]

In the early '70s, the Honolulu ISKCON center became infested with rats. We could hear them in the walls at night, and we had to be very careful with food storage. During Srila Prabhupada's visit in May 1972, we found evidence that a rat had been on the altar overnight. His advice: get a cat and don't feed it too much. Feed it enough that it would stay around but not so much that it wouldn't be hungry. When we got the cat and gave it the run of the house, the rats disappeared.

[gHari]

The cat idea seems best if they are breeding. I put buttered popcorn in a large garbage bag on the floor for my mice. At 3AM they would enter the bag. I would get up quietly and grab the bag and take them to a local park. It was winter and I felt some guilt about denying them my heat, but they seemed to find a new home in the large sewer pipes there.

 

At least they got some prasadam before they left.

[Gauracandra]

The cat idea sounds promising, though make sure its been sterilized, else you won't have a rat infestation, but you will have a cat infestation /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif Aren't there traps that basically are like one way doors? They let them in, but not out? That might be another possibility.

 

[mahak]

I kill them or they will kill my family. Rat feces has a devastating disease called hantavirus. Self defence.

[stonehearted]

mahak wrote: I kill them or they will kill my family. Rat feces has a devastating disease called hantavirus. Self defence.

 

stone: Hantavirus is a particular problem in dry, dusty places. Here we can catch other deadly diseases from rat-doo.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I have a rodent infestation in my house. I have used mouse traps, but they're not effective. I feel real guilty doing it, but I see no other means to get rid of them. In these circumstances is it ok to kill them, maybe by having an exterminator come over?

 

 

Maybe one solution is you could not try to get rid of them?

 

Some people felt the same way about jews, some about blacks, some about non-muslims... Any time the solution is killing something, I don't think its a good solution.

 

There is no question of it being ok; we all suffer for what we do to others. The fact that killing something benefits us materially doesn't make it ok karmically to do.

 

Prabhupada's father would leave raw rice in a bowl for the rats.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I kill them or they will kill my family. Rat feces has a devastating disease called hantavirus. Self defence.

 

 

While were at it, let's kill all those people with contagious diseases, then those who aren't "clean enough", then finally those who smell bad. There is possibility of contracting diseases from such people. Better them then me, just self defense.

[theist]

Strikes me how we are implicated in karma any way we turn.

 

Karma to kill the rats.But If I don't kill the rats they may bite my child whom I supposed to protect.Karma then for neglecting my duties?

 

Prabhupada's father left out the rice in his cloth shop so they wouldn't eat the cloth.Smart.

 

But what about if you have infants? Rats do bite them in their cribs.

 

Then if you are a landlord there are city ordinaces that mandate extermination of vermin and other such creatures.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

 

[atma]

Living in India I lived with rats and mice very often, more or less I tolerated them and I tried to block the points of entrance and that worked when I lived alone in a house. In Mayapur I saw the biggest rats in my life, they are called bandicoots, they came into the house through the holes in the kitchen and the verandah left for the water to go out when you wash the floor. Easy work, block the holes, no more rats, ha, they started coming out through the TOILET. It was so disgusting, tired of going to the neighbours each time we needed to pass, we got the brilliant idea of changing the style of the toilet from Indian to western. It worked. We put metal screens in all the windows because they ate the plastic mosquito nets. No more problems with rats or snakes, yeah, I forgot to mention the snakes.

In the beginning when I moved in that apartment, it wasn't complete and it didn't have doors or windows, just the main door, it was the first building in the middle of the rice fields and was a lots of wild animal life. The mongoose(s) kept the snakes at bay, but once one sneaked into the house and I didn't noticed until the maid lifted the curtain and there it was a poisonous krate just where my baby was playing. The gardener killed inmediately. Another occasion the gardener found almost 100 cobra eggs in the garden, he destroyed them. In another occasion I knew a big rat was in the kitchen and I couldn't find it, I called the gardener and he came out with this huge rat taking it from its tail and to my horror he just smashed it to death on the ground. We has jackals that during the full moons had meetings just outside my window, they howled all night. we had wild cats too, really big, maybe because they ate so many rats.

 

In Calcutta I lived in one filthy building infested by bandicoots and mice, it was horrible and because I shared the apartment with 2 more couples and the brahmacarinis it was impossible to keep them at bay because we didn't have the same standarn of cleanliness. The last drop in my glass was when I was breast-feeding my baby on bed and one rat just came on the bed completely fearless. I freaked out and that night I put puris with rat poison on them and the next morning we found 11 of them dead everywhere in the house except my room. I felt bad for the killing but I couldn't risk my babies to be bitting by rats or mice. Tramps didn't work.

 

In my neighbours's apartment they left the rats run freely (you know because of Ganesh), sometimes sitting in their living room I saw them running around, finally they got tired of them when the father was sleeping and one rat was chewing his hat, was winter and he put a hat to sleep. They never got the rats with tramps, one of the maids got them from the tail and just threw them out of a hole in the bathroom. Not a solution.

 

That city is so dirty and so full of rats, many,many times on my way to the temple I saw dead rats on the street and the crows were eating their insides, really gross.

 

Even at the temple were rats and few times I saw mice running on the deities. nobody did anything about it and drove me nuts. Tramps were useless. they never caught anything with them and cats were not available. Hardly saw a cat in Calcutta. Once for Janmastami the cooks prepared the offering, so many preparations, they went for the abhishek and surprise, surprise, when they came back to the kitchen a rat was eating from the bhoga, one of the stupid ladies still wanted to offered and i had to stop it. Really nonsense.

 

I think that if there is a way to control the rats, by blocking access, having a cat, tramps, having everything clean and neat, etc, its fine but when they are out of control I'll protect my family first. What to do?

[dna]

What if a burglar breaks into my house? Am I obligated to provide him with a place to sleep in my guest room, free meals, etc.? Better yet, why don't I let his entire family move in with me.

 

Of course in this situation, I would call the police to remove the burglar from my house. But with mice, insects, pests, etc., the process is not that easy. What if my house turns into a zoo, making it unsafe to live in? Of course I will try all non-lethal means to remove them first, but there is a point where killing is necessary.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Your mistake is that you think it is your house.

 

By what means is it your house or my house? Human society has created an agreement between people that designates property as belonging to you or me. It is ultimately meaningless.

 

Where does one draw the line of self defense? We start with mosquotes, thinking they are harming us, so we should kill them. Then we raise it to rats. They may bite us afterall. Then we raise it to dogs. Just last week in front of our ashram a neighbor called the city pest control to have 10 dogs killed who used to live on our street. They were really harmless dogs, who would just mind their own business and live their lives. Then one day one of the dogs took someone's shoe (which they left in front of their house). That was enough for the person to want to have them killed. So the city pest control came, put poison in some bread and fed the dogs. First the dogs start shaking and twiching, falling over on their side, and it takes 10 minutes or so for them to actually die, the whole time they are in a lot of pain. But it was all in self defense, what if one of the dogs bit someone?

 

In Delhi they extend it to cows. They kill thousands of stray cows throughout the city, because they feel they are traffic hazards. Its another case of self defense. Someone may crash into them and get injured or die, so better we kill all the cows in our city. It belongs to us humans after all, what right does a cow have to live on our land.

 

So far this is as far as I have seen it extended. But one can make the same case for stray homeless children. 90% of them will turn out to be petty criminals. If we kill them now while young its self defense. There is a good possibility they will grow up to be criminals and may harm people.

 

We look for justification in killing. We have created the environment that invites these animals into our homes, either individually or collectively as a city. We label lands and properties as ours, and claim the right to kill anything that tries to live on our property. In the eyes of universal law, we own nothing and have no special rights.

 

Ultimately for everything we do we will suffer. Karmically there is no question of something being "ok", or free from reaction. Ultimately we have to accept the results for what we do. If we want to kill mosquitoes because it makes our life convenient, then do it, but accept that you will suffer. It is not in the service of God, or for fulfilling some divine duty.

 

Srila Prabhupada's personal example is relevant. He has chastised devotees several times for trying to kill even insignificant mosquitoes.

[theist]

Jndas:"So far this is as far as I have seen it extended. But one can make the same case for stray homeless children. 90% of them will turn out to be petty criminals. If we kill them now while young its self defense. There is a good possibility they will grow up to be criminals and may harm people."

 

They have been doing this in Rio De Janeiro Brazil for several decades.Very young kids live by the thousands in the streets and live primarily by theft and begging.This angers the merchants who see their customer base driven away.So they hire cops to literally kill the kids.Out of uniform of course.

 

 

 

 

[bhaktajoy]

Welcome to Kali yuga!

[transient]

My respects to all.

 

dna said:

What if a burglar breaks into my house? Am I obligated to provide him with a place to sleep in my guest room, free meals, etc.? Better yet, why don't I let his entire family move in with me.

 

Of course in this situation, I would call the police to remove the burglar from my house. But with mice, insects, pests, etc., the process is not that easy. What if my house turns into a zoo, making it unsafe to live in? Of course I will try all non-lethal means to remove them first, but there is a point where killing is necessary.

 

jndas answered:

By what means is it your house or my house? Human society has created an agreement between people that designates property as belonging to you or me. It is ultimately meaningless...

 

I hope jndas do not bring the principle of ahimsa to the point of being a pacifist as he has not addressed squarely the issue raised by dna. "What if a burglar breaks into my house?" What if someone breaks into my house and tries to kill me and my family? Your answer? I cannot invoke self-defense because killing is a sin and this is not my house anyway! Under the universal law all of these: my family and possessions, are meaningless!

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada writes in the Gita:

According to Vedic injunctions there are six kinds of aggressors: (1) a poison giver, (2) one who sets fire to the house, (3) one who attacks with deadly weapons, (4) one who plunders riches, (5) one who occupies another's land, and (6) one who kidnaps a wife. Such aggressors are at once to be killed, and no sin is incurred by killing such aggressors.

 

So clearly there is a law that deals with aggressors. One may argue that this law is applicable only to humans. That we should not kill an animal by all means because they are ignorant anyway and do not engage in sinful acts. I wish I could get hold of a definitive scriptural injunction on this matter either in favor or against. However, as with dna, I am in the opinion that at some point, killing an animal may be necessary. That point is reached when an animal becomes an AGGRESSOR: threatening one's life or creating havoc in one's property or by engaging in any of the six kinds of offessive acts enumarated above.

 

Rodents, especially are very intelligent species who uses all kinds of tricks to create havoc in one's household. They bring poison to your food and threatens your own life. I would deal with them in this way: 1) Try to not let them enter your house in anyway. 2) If they're able to enter, try to remove them by non-lethal means 3) If number 2 fails, kill them.

 

Killing however is only engaged to a last resort but certainly an option -- the final option.

[Gauracandra]

 

What if a burglar breaks into my house? Am I obligated to provide him with a place to sleep in my guest room, free meals, etc.?

 

 

This is an interesting analogy because it is literally the exact analogy used by supporters of abortion. If you have ever taken a philosophy class and discussed "The Philosophy of Abortion" here is the analogy they use. Suppose you accidentally leave your window open (ie. forget to use birth control) and someone enters into your house (ie. your womb) are you obligated to keep that intruder in your home. For 9 months this intruder will be taking up your space, eating your food etc.... So the idea is that it would be ok, to get rid of such an intruder.

 

Now I can already hear the objection... "But a person chooses to engage in sexual activity, so they should not be able to kill the unborn child." Fine. But we also choose to live in such a manner as to invite ants, spider, roaches etc.. into our home. I remember a few years back I had some roaches that would scurry around at night at my place. I cleaned up my entire house, then left for vacation for like 3 weeks. When I returned there wasn't a roach in sight for weeks. Why? Because for 3 weeks I wasn't leaving food out, or having an unclean place. So the roach problem I had was my own doing. In the same way, as was pointed out, either as an individual or as a city (the make up of individuals) rats have been brought into the city. If the city does not have clean sanitation, or proper garbage disposal, this then is a reflection of the individuals in the city.

 

In any case, you have to choose to do what you want. If you choose to kill the rats, fine. But don't think because it is "practical" that this will absolve you of reactions for killing the rats. Every single action you take will have a reaction. So with that in mind, make your decision.

 

Theist's point about child killing in poor countries is very true. I have heard of such "death squads" that roam through the streets of Brazil and other South American countries, killing these homeless children. They are after all a nuisance.

[transient]

Gaurachandra wrote:

In any case, you have to choose to do what you want. If you choose to kill the rats, fine. But don't think because it is "practical" that this will absolve you of reactions for killing the rats. Every single action you take will have a reaction. So with that in mind, make your decision.

 

This is correct. However the goal of life is not to avoid commiting any sinful activity at all cost, which is impossible. Even if we're vegetarians, we're also engage in the killing business by uprooting plants and vegetables for food. By the simple act of breathing we kill other living entities floating on air and by walking we kill other living entities on the ground. So killing cannot be avoided and this world is not called mrityaloka for nothing. So the question shoud be: when is killing necessary and when it is not?

 

One time a rat messed up our altar and polluted the plates used for offering. We're out for the hunt to kill the culprit. If by killing that rat was sinful, no problem, I'll take the karma anytime. If a rat attack my child, I'll kill that rat immediately. I think I have enough power and jurisdiction in my own house to punish the aggressors.

 

So in the course of our life, we engage in many so-called nefarious activities like killing, cheating, lying, etc. and some of these cannot be avoided and sometimes to avoid doing the same is not good for your own health.

 

Kausika the brahmana, who is now roasting in Hell, set his heart on Virtue, and in all his life never told a lie, even in jest.

Once having seen their helpless victim run past him and hide, Kausika, sitting where the rivers meet, answered the thieves: "That way."

So be as the swan, who drinks from milk and water mixed together, whichever one he choose, leaving the other behind." -- from William Buck's rendition of The Mahabharata

 

The issue I want to raise here is we should not be like the pacifists who try to avoid violence at all cost. Or to make piety as the supreme goal in life. Actually no one is saved by engaging in these activities. Arjuna at one time wanted to become like the pacifists but Lord Krishna reprimanded him. Lord Krishna Himself engaged in the pastime of killing the demons.

 

The only way to get out of this wretched world is by pleasing Gurudeva and Krishna and if They're pleased with us and have mercy upon us, They'll pick us up -- even if we're the most sinful of all sinners.

 

One of the criminals who was hanging there railed at him, saying, "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

 

But the other rebuked him, saying, "Don't you fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we rightly so, for we are getting what we deserve for what we did, but this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." -- Luke 23:39 - 43 (NIV).

[leyh]

Hi Jndas Prabhu:

 

The following account by Srutakirti Prabhu seems to show that at least in certain circumstances,Srila Prabhupada approved of the killing of insects for self defence.

 

I had never seen so many mosquitoes in my life. It was so bad that by the time I had the net over his bed there were already mosquitoes inside the net. One night, after we both climbed under the net I was massaging his legs. I said, "There are so many mosquitoes. Should I kill them, Srila Prabhupada?" He said, "Yes! They are attacking. According to Sastra, if one is being attacked, you have the right to defend yourself. And, they are attacking." So, I was massaging and watching. Whenever I saw one in the air I would raise my hands and clap them together. Sometimes I would gently smack Srila Prabhupada's body as one landed on his head or back. It was the most unusual service I had ever done but I enjoyed it immensely. I never considered my self much of a warrior but this enemy was no match for me. I had finally been given a service I was good at, killing insects. Srila Prabhupada was so very kind. (Excerpt from Srila Prabhupada Uvaca by Srutakirti dasa, Uvaca 57, http://users.aol.com/vrinda/ppduvaca/page3.htm#Prabhupada )

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

By the simple act of breathing we kill other living entities floating on air and by walking we kill other living entities on the ground. So killing cannot be avoided and this world is not called mrityaloka for nothing.

 

 

Every moment we are unknowingly killing so many living entities, which is why humans are required to perform the panca maha-yajnas, or the five great sacrifices to Vishnu. One of these five sacrifices is to feed the insects and animals within one's house. Unfortunately in the Kali yuga, this sacrifice has been replaced with feeding poison to the insects and animals in our house under the belief that they are intruders. To kill unknowingly and knowingly are quite different. For our unplanned sins, we are able to purify ourselves through the panca maha-yajnas. But our intentional sinful activities can not be purified by such methods of attonement.

 

Even today in South India, after 5,000 years of Kali yuga, still the feeding of ants in one's house is being carried out in millions of homes. Every morning after washing the area around one's house, the house is decorated with "kolam", a geometrical design drawn on the floor with rice flower. Unfortunately people are increasingly giving up the use of rice flower in favour of synthetic ingredients which no longer serve the purpose for which the designs were drawn.

 

Lord Krishna Himself engaged in performance of the panca maha-yajnas, which include feeding the ants, rats, mice, etc., living within one's house, who are also considered as the children of the householder (from Krishna Book):

 

"In another palace, Krsna was found performing the panca-yajna sacrifice, which is compulsory for a householder. This yajna is also known as panca-suna. Knowingly or unknowingly, everyone, specifically the householder, is committing five kinds of sinful activities. When we receive water from a water pitcher, we kill many germs that are in it. Similarly, when we use a grinding machine or take foodstuff, we kill many germs. When sweeping a floor or igniting a fire we kill many germs, and when we walk on the street we kill many ants and other insects. Consciously or unconsciously, in all our different activities, we are killing. Therefore, it is incumbent upon every householder to perform the panca-suna sacrifice to rid himself of the reactions to such sinful activities."

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The Bhagavatam instructs us to treat animals such as mice and snakes as our own children:

 

mrigostra-khara-markakhu-

sarisrip khaga-makshikah

atmanah putravat pashyet

tair esham antaram kiyat

 

"One should treat animals such as deer, camels, asses, monkeys, mice, snakes, birds and flies exactly like one's own son. How little difference there actually is between children and these innocent animals."

 

Srila Prabhupada has commented on this verse as follows:

 

"One who is in Krsna consciousness understands that there is no difference between the animals and the innocent children in one's home. Even in ordinary life, it is our practical experience that a household dog or cat is regarded on the same level as one's children, without any envy. Like children, the unintelligent animals are also sons of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and therefore a Krsna conscious person, even though a householder, should not discriminate between children and poor animals. Unfortunately, modern society has devised many means for killing animals in different forms of life. For example, in the agricultural fields there may be many mice, flies and other creatures that disturb production, and sometimes they are killed by pesticides. In this verse, however, such killing is forbidden. Every living entity should be nourished by the food given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Human society should not consider itself the only enjoyer of all the properties of God; rather, men should understand that all the other animals also have a claim to God's property. In this verse even the snake is mentioned, indicating that a householder should not be envious even of a snake. If everyone is fully satisfied by eating food that is a gift from the Lord, why should there be envy between one living being and another? A sadhu is kind not only to human beings but to cats, dogs, trees, plants and insects; he will hesitate even to kill one mosquito. He does not simply think, "I shall just take care of my brother." He looks on all living beings as his brothers because Krsna says that He is the father of all living entities."

 

[atma]

What about the incident when Srila Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati ordered to kill a snake? I think the difference is when "they are attacking"

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Here are some of Srila Prabhupada's statements on the subject:

 

"Treat them just like your friend, maitrah. A devotee is friend to everyone. He does not want to kill even an ant or a mosquito. That is devotee, maitrah, to everyone friendly. Maitrah karunah. Karunah means kind. A devotee is kind to everyone."

 

"A Vaisnava will hesitate to kill even one mosquito. Sarva-dehinam. Not that "I shall take care of my brother. I am good, and my brother is good." No. Suhrdah sarva-dehinam. These are the Vaisnava qualifications."

 

"So we are responsible. Even if we kill one mosquito, we are responsible. It is not man-made law, that "If you kill a human being, then you are punished, and if you kill another animal, you are not punished." This is man-made law, according to our convenience."

 

"The fly is coming, disturbing. I can simply make some spray to kill it, as you do generally, but that killing is another risk. But those who do not know, they kill it. Because you have no right to kill. Suppose a man is disturbing you. So if you kill, you become a murderer and you'll be taken into the court and you'll be punished, and if you say, "This man was disturbing me; therefore I have killed him," that is no excuse. You have killed this man; you must suffer. This is ordinarily we find in our general living condition. So in the state of the Supreme Lord, you cannot kill even a mosquito or even a fly. You'll be punished. Because God says that "Everyone is My child."

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

"I have another story; this one was told by my father. My father's elder brother was running a cloth shop. Before closing the shop my uncle would put out a basin filled with rice. Of course, as in any village, there were rats. But the rats would take the rice and not cut even a single cloth. Cloth is very costly. If even one cloth had been cut by a rat, then it would have been a great loss. So with a few pennies' worth of rice, he saved many dollars' worth of cloth. This Krsna culture is practical. "They are also part and parcel of God. Give them food. They'll not create any disturbance. Give them food."'

 

"Everyone has an obligation to feed whoever is hungry--even if it is a tiger. Once a certain spiritual teacher was living in the jungle. His disciples knew, "The tigers will never come and disturb us, because our teacher keeps some milk a little distance from the asrama, and the tigers come and drink and go away."'

 

"The teacher would call, "You! Tiger! You can come and take your milk here!" [Laughter.] And they would come and take the milk and go away. And they would never attack any members of the asrama. The teacher would say, "They are my men--don't harm them."

 

 

Another:

 

"When Haridasa Thakura was living in a cave and chanting Hare Krsna, a big snake who also lived there decided to go away. The snake knew--"He's a saintly person. He should not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from Bhagavad-gita we understand, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese--Krsna is in every-one's heart, and He is dictating. So Krsna can dictate peace and harmony to the animals, to the serpent, to everyone."

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Are mice criminal intruders? Here is an interesting conversation:

Malati: Srila Prabhupada, you said that the animals are not subject to the laws of the state, that if they steal something, they are not punished. But in our country, even if a person has a mouse in his house, a little mouse, he sets some trap and he kills him for stealing food.

Prabhupada: That is not punishment. That is to stop the disturbance. By law... There is no such law that "When there is a rat in your house, you should catch it and kill it." Law does not say. Is there any law like that?

Malati: No.

Prabhupada: Then that is another thing.

Malati: But this country had it into the laws.(?)

Prabhupada: Yes, but sometimes... That depends on the person. Sometimes... Those who are pious persons, they know that these rats, they are also hungry and they should be given some food. That is the vision of the pious person. And that is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that in your house you should see not only to the welfare of your children. Even there is a lizard, there is a rat, even there is a snake, you should see how he is also comfortably situated. That is spiritual communism. In Vrndavana still, a snake found in the house is never killed, snake. Still a rat is never killed. If you kill a rat in Vrndavana, then so many people will come: "Oh, you are committing such sinful acts. You are killing a rat." That depends on the mentality of the person. You can take care of this animal, I mean to say, against the disturbance created by this animal, but you cannot kill them. That is not. But when it is unavoidable, we have to do like that. But as far as possible we should avoid. We have heard from our father that his elder brother in the village had a cloth shop, and there were rats. So at night he would keep a big bowl of rice in the middle of the shop, and the rats will eat whole night. They would not commit any harm to the cloth. They respect it. They are also hungry, they are also living entities. They have also right to live, to eat. Isavasyam idam sarvam. Everything. They are God's creatures. The food is not only meant for you, that you shall simply eat rice and not allow to the rats and cats. No. That is not Vedic injunction. You will find in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. You can take precaution. After all, they are animals. But you cannot kill.

Himavati: But then if you think further, that is that if you are going to make a program to feed the animals in your house, then won't more and more animals come into your residence? Suppose I feed these rats and I go on feeding them. Won't more and more rats come?

Prabhupada: Well, the rats will be fed. Either you give or not, it will steal. So that is not the problem. But if you give them food, they will... Of course, that is Western philosophy, that because the animals are increasing, they should be killed. We Indians also, we have taken that view--because we cannot give protection to the cows, they must be sent to the slaughterhouse. That is the modern view. But that is not injunction of the Vedas. The Vedas says that everyone has right to live, every living entity. That is going on not only in consideration of the animals--even in human beings. Just like the Americans, they were all Europeans, and they entered this American land, killed so many Red Indians. So these kind of things are going on, but that does not mean that is the law. You killed so many Red Indians for your benefit, but you have to suffer for that. So that... This is going on in the human society, but that does not mean it is dharma. No. Dharma means you have to abide by the regulation given by the Vedas.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

"You'll find in Srimad-Bhagavatam in the Seventh Canto, Narada Muni is instructing to Maharaja Yudhisthira about this communism, that "A grhastha, before taking lunch, he must see that every insect, every lizard, every cat, every rat..." (break)...whether a snake in that house must have been fed, must have taken their food. This is so hospitable that the householder, the owner of the house, not only see that his wife, children, servants are well fed, but even the rats, cats, or the insect or the lizard or even the snake has got his food. That is the ideal communism. Because when you are pandita, learned, you cannot distinguish that "This is animal and this is human being." You can treat them differently because their consciousness... But on the basic principle, the living entity, any living entity--it doesn't matter whether is animal or man--he's part and parcel of Krsna. So you cannot kill one living entity for the satisfaction... (end) They even do not prohibit the monkeys. "All right, let him come in. It is God's property." That is the system. That is mentioned in Bhagavata. If the animals like monkeys, they come to your garden to eat, don't prohibit. Let him. He's also Krsna's part and parcel. Where he will eat if you prohibit? Just like spiritual our communism means... Just like I'm living in this house. I shall have to take care even for one lizard, that is also living entity. I shall have to take care of one rat, one mouse, even one snake, if he's living in one's house. That is spiritual community. The idea is nobody should starve. I have to see whether the leader is also given proper food."