We Are Trying to Be the Greatest

[ethos]

Excerpt from Hridyananda Tape Ministry:

 

So for example, let us assume that we have understood there is an eternal soul within the body. Then the question arises, "Well what the heck are we doing here in this material world?" If I am an eternal soul, what am I doing here? It may seem unreasonable to say that we’re just created in a fallen condition because due to our clumsiness (you might say our metaphysical or spiritual or moral clumsiness) we are always doing the wrong thing and suffering in this world. We commit sins, we do all kinds of wrong things and in different ways we are punished by nature, punished by the government. We suffer in different ways. We go through psychological problems because we are a little clumsy in this world. We’re always bumping into things psychologically and physically. So are we just by nature clumsy? Are we just by nature inept? Are we always gonna be attached to the wrong things and do and say wrong things and suffer… get ourselves entangled in situations that aren’t really good for us. If that’s true, then our suffering seems to be in a sense meaningless and there’s no way to avoid it.

 

But in fact according to the Bhagavad-gita, we are not condemned or by nature necessarily fallen. We are in this material world covered with a material body because we are trying to pretend something. Everyone of us is trying to pretend something that’s not really true. And as soon as we stop pretending, then we can actually become happy. So what are we trying to pretend? We are trying to pretend that we are more or less God. What does that mean? Does that mean that I’m going around preaching that I’m the Lord of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and I created the world. No. It doesn’t mean necessarily that we are God in this overt way. But in a more subtle sense we think we are God in the sense that everyone is trying to be the most beautiful person… I mean who doesn’t want to be the most beautiful person? Who doesn’t want to be the strongest person? Who doesn’t wanna have the last word and be the most intelligent person on his block? So if you consider what’s actually going on in this world, in different ways we are trying to create and project an image of ourselves… we are trying to be the greatest. Everyone wants to be the best person, everyone wants for everyone else to love him and appreciate him and all that.

 

So this is in fact a perverted, unnatural way for us to think because there is a person who is the most beautiful on every block… and the wealthiest. You see? He’s the wealthiest, the most beautiful, most intelligent. So who is it? Is it Edward Kennedy or is it some famous rock and roll singer? Or some sheik who’s actually the wealthiest person? Who is actually the greatest person? It’s actually God. He wins. You know you say, "The envelop please," and then when you open it up you find out it’s God; He won! So the idea is that if we were not pretending that we’re the greatest, we could just happily recognize the fact God’s the greatest. If we could all agree on that, all of these egotistical games that go on between people could all be called off and everyone could just have a good time worshiping God together. So that’s the whole problem. The whole problem is that we are pretending something that’s not true. We are really eternal servants of God. Everyone of us is a loving servant of God but now we’re pretending "No, I’m this. I’m that. I’m real smart, I’ve got money" or "I’ve got a beautiful body." We’re pretending all kinds of things. Instead of just surrendering unto the Supreme Lord and learning to love Him.

 

Beyond that, when we consider that everything belongs to God, all of these disputes of capitalism and socialism and communism and monarchism and anarchism and all these things are really very artificial because there’s nothing to argue about. Everything belongs to God. So we are fighting… It’s like the story Prabhupada always told that one time there was a gang of thieves and they successfully completed their robbery and they went back to their hideout. And then the leader when he took all the valuables out and got ready to divide them, he admonished, he warned all the other thieves that uh Listen you guys. We’re gonna divide it honestly. So this is the famous honor among thieves. They wanted to honestly divide the stolen property. That is more or less what we call political science and economic theory and conflict between classes and all that. It is all honor among thieves. The capitalists say the everything belongs to the… well to the capitalists. The capitalists say everything belongs to the private individual and they’re willing to die for that sacred principle. And the communists say No, everything belongs to the state which in some incomprehensible way is working for the benefit of the people. So in fact everything belongs to God. So if we can begin with that… get that straight, then we could figure out alot of other things also.

[madhav]

<<So in fact everything belongs to God. >>

 

True.

 

We Vedic people say: isavasya idam sarvam

Everything belongs to God, Krishna.

 

Muslims say: Everything belongs to Allah.

 

However while Krishna says: Use what you have for Krishna and his devotees or others, Allah says to Muslims to take back the land and possessions of the kafirs (non muslims)

any possible ways because it is their illegal possession just bacause they are not believing in allah.

Basically Islam is not a tolerant but is very intolerant religion.

 

So, a solution is that Hare Krishnas need to go to Muslim countries to preach Krishna's message.

How? Muslims countries mostly do not allow it.

 

So then what is the solution?

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sadly, it seems the only solution is war. That may sound drastic. But what else can be done? The Muslims have murdered millions of Hindus over the centuries. They terrorize and murder Jews and Christians as well. It doesn't seem that diplomacy and other non-militaristic methods have succeeded in dealing with Muslims, who by nature of their beliefs, appear to be unrelentlingly aggressive and warlike. I do not want to see war happen. But, it may be the only way. It seems inevitable. Preaching sounds nice in theory, but is it practical? Muslims are notorious when it comes to converting Hindus to the Muslim faith. Not through free will or evangelism, but by force. If the Muslims wish to divert their bullying/terroristic tactics against superior nations in the West, then perhaps it is karma that someone powerful (like the U.S. and others), will say "enough is enough." Sad, but this is the reality, is it not?

[Guest guest]

madhav wrote: So, a solution is that Hare Krishnas need to go to Muslim countries to preach Krishna's message.

How? Muslims countries mostly do not allow it.

 

In fact, devotees have been preaching in Muslim countries for over 25 years. Indradyumna Swami recently wrote about his visit to a Muslim country.

[ethos]

Madhav, I don't know why you are so Muslim conscious. But we all have our pet peeves.

 

You asked the question above, "So then what is the solution?" And you posted the below reply on another thread that I think reveals more about you ideas of action.

 

"However, I would say that when the Islamists have imposed global war (jeehad) oer the world, the priority is different. Everyone has to fight this asura in any possible ways they can. There are many non violent ways to fight, and to fight violently is kshatriya dharma also."

 

I for one have no qualms about violence applied for reasons you suggest above. But I also don't see the urgency that justifies a dash for the ammo. I think Muslims have alot of problems understanding reality and they are creating some real messes in the world. But what I do admire about them is their seeming commitment to their practice. I think in some of those terms they can be inspiring to even us. But then again, their standards may be somewhat easy to follow as the Christians are.

 

We could pick alot of people out to attack in this world for their transgressions. The Chinese, Russians and Europeans––especially the Europeans––have just made genocide their history. And they also have displayed dogmatic interest and a lack of empathy to others. What some of these corporations and governments are systematically doing to the world all in the name of their cheap gratification is atrocious. Maybe we should target them who are more deserving of retribution.

 

I would say in response that Prabhupada laid out the plan. He created a house the whole world can live in. But we are so ineffective and foolish that we can't even maintain it, what to speak of expanding it.

 

But the process is there. Simply expound the truth with Sankirtana. Sounds simple. But it takes alot of surrender to do this and we are not manifesting what it takes to make it happen.

 

Our process is to follow in Prabhupada's footsteps. How did he do what he did? We all know the history. Think about it. He became qualified and told others.

 

The process is eternal and remains the same. If we can intelligently seek empathy from most of the world, the Muslims will be carried too. Till then, I think it's best to leave the Muslims alone.

 

 

[stonehearted]

ethos wrote: But the process is there. Simply expound the truth with Sankirtana. Sounds simple. But it takes alot of surrender to do this and we are not manifesting what it takes to make it happen.

 

Our process is to follow in Prabhupada's footsteps. How did he do what he did? We all know the history. Think about it. He became qualified and told others.

 

The process is eternal and remains the same. If we can intelligently seek empathy from most of the world, the Muslims will be carried too. Till then, I think it's best to leave the Muslims alone.

 

 

Well said. I'd like to suggest that we also try to intelligently empathize with the rest of the world. If, like Srila Prabhupada, we can see the spark of Krishna consciousness in everyone and meet them where they are, perhaps our preaching will be more effective.

[Guest guest]

Dear ethos and other Prabhus or Goswamis,

 

Hare Krishna!

 

While I am speaking from a kshtrtiya point of view, you are speaking from a brahmana point of view.

 

When the house is on fire, the priority is to fight fire.

Chanting and doing sankirtan is not priority at that time.

 

I am pleased to know that some HK's are preaching in Muslims countries. They are taking hign risk on their lives in doing so for Krishna! My dandvat to them.

 

From a kshatriy point of view, and knowing Islam's strategy to take over the world burtally, I think it is high priority to fight this fire first in any possible way you can. There is no need to say, Islam is good, because it is not. Nor will it generate any good will among the Muslims for HK's because HKs are just as kafirs to them as any other kafirs.

 

I know Prabhupada's mission is to make a house in which every one can live. His mission is to produce brahmains only. But the brahmins cannot do their thing if Islam rules.

Whthout kshatriya protetion, brahmins cannot succeed in their work for them selves or for the society.

 

The reason why I talk about Islam is because

it has declared jeehad all over the world, and because

we the vedic people are the victims of Islam for 1000 years.

So, it is foolish to forget the enemy ideology.

Our non violence and tolerance does not impress them.

 

A brahmana shouldl never convert a kshatriya when enemy is at the door step. A kshatriya should not convert brahmanas, because brahmanas are needed, but their work is successful only in peace time. So, when there is emergency,

every one needs to help in any way they can.

 

One non-violent way the brahmanas can help is to study Koran and Hadith and Islam history and expose to the world how barbaric Islam is. Do we have any brahmana volunteers for this?

 

Yes, we the Hindus have our own internal problems also, but we are not out to take over the world and their freedom.

Islam is.

 

Just think, when Akshardham and Raghunath temples were attacked, then why you should think that it is not your problem, or that it is not your loss?

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

[ethos]

Madhav, Good philosophy. Points well taken. You had me laughing at your ksaytria–doorstep–enemy analogy. Wonderful!

 

I am not a Prabhu or a Gosvami. I am a jerk.

 

It's a shame that neighbors are such bitter enemies, sworn to fight to the end. It's ominous that Prabhupada pointed at that region as a cauldron for world destruction.

 

Your reasons are justified and I empathize with them.

 

Ksatriyas, however are justified in independent action only in defense of society––or for the obvious reasons. When initiated aggression is considered, ksatriyas are to be counciled by Brahmanas who are supposedly free of political temperment.

 

The process remains the same. There really is nothing to fight about if we can get it right. But that's not likely in these times. I know.

 

The Muslims are righteous as are the Hindus. Everyone is too busy being righteous to be spiritual.

[Guest guest]

Dear ethos Prabhu,

 

Ref. Your lines:

<<The Muslims are righteous as are the Hindus. Everyone is too busy being righteous to be spiritual. >>

 

Yes, Bin Laden and his party as well as all who build madresas in Pakistan and elsewhere and preach there and those who planned a financed 9/11 are righteous according to Koran and Hadith.

 

For us Vedic people, we know from Gita what righteousnes is

for brahmanas, kshatriyas etc.

Note that Krishna said to Arjuna to fight Bhismna and Dorna.

To do so was righteous.

 

So, basically, this material world is a prison house.

Conflicts cannot be avoided here, especially in this kali yuga. Every one has to join in. One just has to pick which side one wants to be. I belive that no vedic person would join the side of Islam. That would be treason, adharma.

 

Brahmanas' duty is to tell the truth to the world

why the vedic people should not tolerate the barbarians.

The Brahmains need to find the roots cause of this barbarism, and expose this barbarism so much that

no one would feel comfortable in a mon muslim society to say "I am a Muslims, or Islam is love or tolerant".

 

There are many non violent ways to fight.

Also, the vedic people need to be pro-active in the struggle. Just reacting after a terrorist act will not help. The barbarisns' straategy is to bleed us slowley to death and disintegration.

 

No government can fight terrorism alone, not possible.

All the public needs to play what ever part they can play according to their talent and ability.

 

Now if anyone has seen the barbaric teachings of Islam in Koran and Hadith, it is worth sharing it here or keeping it on a sub-page here. This will be useful and handy when any asura comes here in disguise and tries to delude us. If this is agreeable, then we need volunteers to do the research and expose Islam here and else where.

 

Dear ethos, you are not jerk.

You are humble and lot better than some deluded Hindus who still are singing Gandhi's non violence songs and siding Islam.

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

[Guest guest]

Dear ethos,

 

You wrote:

 

<<It's a shame that neighbors are such bitter enemies, sworn to fight to the end.>>

 

The above line can be translated to:

 

<<It is a shame that people in one family Arjuna and Duryodhana are such bitter enemies, sworn to fight to the end.>>

 

Now you can see who has to feel shame.

To fight adharma is not shame.

 

You might know that India (mostly the Hindus)

helped Bangladesh to get freedom from Pakistan.

So, naturally we expect that Bangladesh will be India's friend. But what we see is it is acting like an enemy.

Why, because it is Muslim majority.

 

So, what is the root cause of trouble there and else where?

Not Hindus (vedic people).

 

If there is any flaw or lie in the above analysis,

please prove it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

[ethos]

Madhav, I see no problem with your reasoning. I am half-way around the world and removed from these passions. I am ignorant about your daily threats.

 

I am at a loss to understand this: <>

 

I simply have 2 side comments:

 

I don't believe people have to choose to participate as you say here:

"Conflicts cannot be avoided here, especially in this kali yuga. Every one has to join in. One just has to pick which side one wants to be."

 

And I see this comment as describing capitalism in general:

"The barbarisns' straategy is to bleed us slowley to death and disintegration."

 

God help us all. Hare Krsna.

[theist]

This threat must be dealt with in a befitting way according to the nature of the threat.

 

I am certainly not for indiscriminate attacks on Moslems. But I am for hunting down these terrorists and killing them on sight. No courts no nothing. Kill them where they are found. This of course takes great intelligence and cooperation among nations. they have boldly declared war and should be taken on their word as not to mention their deeds. 46 more people killed in Chechnia (sp?)yesterday due to a suicide car bombing.

 

This is not religion but a group of fanatic suicide/murder cultists.

 

No negotiation, no compromise.Kill 'em. I felt the same long before 9/11.

 

Not pretty, but the only effect way to deal with the threat.

[ethos]

That will never work as violence begets violence. All this technology and hatred are simply pushing the world to the rashness of "I'll get you before you get me" …as Bushy Boy so loudly cried of Saddam.

 

Why just look at how we act on this board with all our knowledge and so-called cultural refinement. We simply want to fight. And that's the result of our aggression.

 

Let's take 9/11 or the many hijackings before that. Does anybody ask why or even care to ask why? What drives people to such desperate measures?

 

Well, what is an ambush? What underhanded tactics were perpetrated at Kuruksetra and why?

 

People use such measures when they can't accomplish what the want directly––as often with a stronger adversary.

 

But what is their mission, their motive? That is not generally known of todays groups. They are simply advertised as devils. The truth may be very different.

 

What if the IRS ruins someone's life deliberately–as they have done––and they react by murdering alot of their employees? I mean people can be pushed to the breaking point.

 

Now what are the circumstances? The motives? The pain? That story is rarely told. The people behind the scenes moving world events are nameless and faceless to you and me. Their agenda supercedes all else; religion, humanity or family. And it's all for their cheap gratification.

 

I would like to point out that all nations have their terrorists training camps. They are all guilty of espionage and covert activites and so on. They are just a little more discriminate in their applications. But then they can afford to be if all the cards are in their favor.

 

We are getting so off topic here (as usual).

[madhav]

Dear ethos Prabhu,

 

My humble response is placed below your lines below.

 

<<Madhav, I see no problem with your reasoning.>>

 

Then good, truth has to be know, even if unpleasant.

Remaining ignorent of facts cannot help really.

 

<< I am half-way around the world and removed from these passions. I am ignorant about your daily threats.>>

 

If one cannot handle the facts, then one can ignore it and remain happy, but it does not solve the problem. Still one can pray to God and seek His divine help if he cannot do anything, even non violent things. I am not pushing you or any one for anything, but just discussing the point. If you see terrorist acts, they are every where. This says that their target includes all kafirs, their lives, land, and possessions and temples. This matches with what Koran and Hadith teaches.

 

<<I am at a loss to understand this: <> >>

 

So, when you said you understood my reasoning, you really did not mean it. OK.

 

 

<<I don't believe people have to choose to participate as you say here:

"Conflicts cannot be avoided here, especially in this kali yuga. Every one has to join in. One just has to pick which side one wants to be.">>

 

Sure, every one is free to do something or not do anything.

Even Krishna says to Arjuna: "yathechcchasi tathaa kuru."

One has to act accroding to known truth and best intelligence (rational reasoning) one can get.

I am not saying, "What I say is god's word,"

but I am willing to be convinced if the analysis is faulty.

 

<<And I see this comment as describing capitalism in general:

"The barbarisns' straategy is to bleed us slowley to death and disintegration.">>

 

This is mainly in reference to cross border terrorism supported by Pakistan and ISI in India and Kashmir. I just assuemed that those who love Krishna and Prabhupada also love their country, Bharat, the land of the Hindus (vedic people as you are). I have difficulty understanding how it describes capitalism.

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

 

[madhav]

Dear Theist,

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

You wrote:

<<This is not religion but a group of fanatic suicide/murder cultists.>>

 

Who ever takes time to study Koan and Hadith

would say that those who do this and support it

are stounch Muslims like wahabis of Saudi Arabia.

So, to us it is adharma, to them it is dharma.

 

If any one who has ability to sucessfully preach

that non violence is dharma,

then they need to preach it first to

those who are violent - Bin Laden and party.

To perach non violence to the victims of terrorism

is to sway/confuse the kshatriyas from doing their duty.

Besides, one can fight non violently also.

 

The need is to cool down aggressors, not the victims.

Unfortunately they do not understand non violence is virtue.

 

Sure some non muslims also do terrorism, but not at global level, and their Books of religion do not encourage terrorism. But one cannot say this for Muslims.

 

The observation: "Most muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are muslims" tells why it is so, and hardly any muslim country speaks against this terrorism (9/11 etc.).

Bin Laden is worshipped as hero in several countries.

 

So, it helps to decide what to do when truth is known well.

 

The Hindu principle of non violence is not absolute.

The vedic people are least violent,

but if they do not find a way or there is no time,

the kshatriya spirit would evoke in many vedic people.

 

Krishna says, "yuddhaaya kirta nicchaya."

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

 

[stonehearted]

Guest wrote: I know Prabhupada's mission is to make a house in which every one can live. His mission is to produce brahmains only.

 

Not exactly; his mission is to carry Lord Chaitanya's mercy to all, giving them the chance to revive their inherent dharma as eternal servants of Krishna. Brahminical culture can certainly be conducive to the spiritual culture taught in Srimad-Bhagavatam, but Srila Prabhupada's mission is actually to produce vaishnavas. In Krishna's Braja-lila, the brahmanas declined to give Krishna and Balaram's friends the offerings prepared for their sacrifice, but their wives didn't hesitate for a moment. We're more interested in seeing vaishnavas with hearts as simple as the dvija-patnis than we are in seeing folks with puffed-up egos like the brahmins.

[theist]

Madhav prabhu,

 

Those weren't my words.

 

Hare Krsna

[ethos]

Madhav, Your reply to Theist confounded me as I read it. I think you were continuing your reply to me.

 

Well, it is not necessarily a requirement to know all the details in assessing a moral position or positions. So-called objective scientific processes no matter how objectively applied are useless for moral understanding. It is through God and religion that we know right and wrong. And we can know these things through study and practice.

 

Prabhupada said the whole world was implicated in sin. He called us all melechas. But he gave his love anyway. And Miracles resulted.

 

I agree with Stonehearted on this. We are not about any warfare or politics. Our program is peaceful revolution. Hare Krsna.

 

Please desist from this talk of retaliation and killing. It is not the mood of this board.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

ethos: It's nice to see you in a good mood.

[theist]

So the brahmins were the instructers in society. What did they tell the ksatriyas about duty?

 

We are not in a world as describe in Mahabharata. Where the warriors go outside the city limits and meet on a battlefield, kill each other until sundown, party together at night, and pick it up the next day.

 

We are dealing with demons who strap bombs to their bodies, walk into shopping malls and detoniate themselves in order to kill as many civilians as possible.

 

This has to be stopped now. How hard is it to walk into Temple Jagganatha in Puri with one of these bomb belts on? Or anywhere else for that matter.

 

Pre-emptive strikes are all that will work. Bush and Blair understand this. All the other world leaders are impotent hand wringers.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Theist: Well said. A man after my own heart.

[ethos]

Guest, What? You say'in I'm in a good mood. What do you know anyway?

 

Just kidd'in. Peace.

[ethos]

Theist, this question is not befitting you:

 

"So the brahmins were the instructers in society. What did they tell the ksatriyas about duty?"

 

…Or you are not who you seem.

 

Well, obviously the brahmanas were the leaders of society in practically every way. Not only did they counsel the ksatriyas, but they were teachers, scientists, astrologers, doctors, and so on. So as a whole they were very in tune with their society and finely tuned to the extent of their God realization. I'm sure they were qualified to train and advise the ksatrias on what was the best interest of society and God.

 

"We are not in a world as describe in Mahabharata. Where the warriors go outside the city limits and meet on a battlefield, kill each other until sundown, party together at night, and pick it up the next day."

 

But we are in a world where the politicians shamelessly send their citizens to slaughter over policies they don't personally answer for.

 

And don't miss this perspective: Hijackings and terrorist activity had been going on for a couple decades with little or nothing done about it. The lives of a few thousand victims was not enough to initiate and policy changes. But the terrorists made the god-aweful mistake of hitting the leaders directly. Now no expense can be spared for our protection. Now doesn't that reveal alot about motives?

 

And as I said, the terrorism goes on historically and presently in innumerable forms. Even a single rape or murder fits the definition of terrorism. So do institutional policies stripping away civil rights and freedoms.

 

"Pre-emptive strikes are all that will work."

 

If only Prabhupada was here to hear you say that.

 

The twisted logic is real:

 

You try to punish someone for something he hasn't done and become guilty of the same activity you are supposedly fighting against. This is not reason.

 

Don't get caught up in the media. This stuff has been going on for a long time by all nations, official or otherwise. Just ask the Jews or the Indians or the Blacks.

 

I answered you though I'm really not interested. I'm tired of talking about this violence crap. It's not constructive. There are much more interesting and enlightening things to think about.

[theist]

"You propose to induce the American people to surrender to Lord Caitanya by expansion of book distribution, that is wanted. When you come to that, that is success. Then you can take charge of the government. And, as soon as in America the Krsna conscious boys are in power the whole world will be changed. The idea is to bring under control all atheist class of men. There are two ways of bringing the opposition under control. One is by logic and philosophy, the other is by force. That was done by Bharata Maharaja when he was king of this planet." -Prabhupada letter 76-12-20

 

So how long do you keep trying to reason wth someone? they don't want to be reasonable. They will not become reasonable. That leaves force.

[leyh]

Sometimes violence is necessary to deal with demoniac forces or simply for self defence.This kind of violence is certainly approved of by Srila Prabhupada, as evidenced by one of his letters:

 

The last time we performed a Hare Krsna Festival in Delhi, there was imminent danger of Pakistan's declaring war, and when a newspaper man approached me for my opinion, I said there must be fighting because the other party was aggressive. However, because of our sankirtana movement, India emerged victorious. (Altruism: Temporary and Eternal, from Chapter 6 of The Science of Self Realization)

 

Personally, I think violence should be employed only when it is clear that the other party has no interest in reasonable negotiation.