Men and women in ISKCON

[Guest guest]

Why is it that some ISKCON men, despite being first and second initiated, can't seem to resist the temptation to put their hands on women? I mean, it doesn't even seem to matter any more that a women can come in looking really chaste, dressed in sari, with her hair tied up in the traditional stye, wearing mangala-sutra, and obviously married to someone else. Despite all these high principles these people preach, they just can't resist touching other women, even other people's wives.

 

Is ISKCON destined to alienate all traditional, brahminical minded people by having senior devotees who remain utterly clueless about the basics of Vedic culture?

 

[Guest guest]

The only time a man should be touching a woman who isn't his wife, is if he is touching that woman's feet with his forehead, addressing her as mother and offering to do service.

 

 

[armisael108]

Hare Krishna,

 

This strictly depends on the location I would say because I've been around a temple community for 2 years now and I never seen men touch women at least on temple grounds.

 

Now what do you mean by touching... errr on second thought I prefer not to know, but I was thinking accidental touching not included in that touching.

 

I know for a fact that devotees at the temple I go to are very advanced and respect this principle. What happens at other temples, depends on the authorities and the character of the individuals.

[yasodanandana]

a temple is a place where people are cured of the "material life disease".....

 

in a hospital very often doctors and patients wear the same dresses

[I_love_krishna_]

From our ignorance we bring up issues like this... the truth is we have to be less body conscious and more soul conscious...

 

 

"Men" and "Women" touch each other all the time. When we rise above all this alone will we find true freedom..

 

Sorry to be harsh... however, this is how I feel.

[Priitaa]

Its not a bad question to ask and if someone touched her inappropriately, she should be encouraged to speak about it. But I can't give much more advice than that without knowing at least a little more about it.

[livingentity]

Obviously, something has happened to this person to make them bring this up and they should not be made to feel that they are - as you say "ignorant"!! They should not be made to feel that they need to keep disturbing things held up inside where they can fester until they explode inappropriately.

 

We do not want nor need gorey details but this was a very simple question.

 

No, men and women do not touch each other all the time. I do not touch men and I do not encourage them to touch me even if they are my friends. I was taught from an early age that this is inappropriate behavior and still find it to be such.

 

 

From our ignorance we bring up issues like this... the truth is we have to be less body conscious and more soul conscious...

"Men" and "Women" touch each other all the time. When we rise above all this alone will we find true freedom..

Sorry to be harsh... however, this is how I feel.

 

 

[theist]

SB 11.8.13: A saintly person should never touch a young girl. In fact, he should not even let his foot touch a wooden doll in the shape of a woman. By bodily contact with a woman he will surely be captured by illusion, just as the elephant is captured by the she-elephant due to his desire to touch her body.

 

 

 

[theist]

At least at the temple or while attending devotional funtions we should leave these games behind. We become overly familiar and forget where we are sometimes.

[livingentity]

I agree. Prabhupada gave many instructions concerning this behavior and if it is happening in some of the temples then they need to start re-reading His books etc.

 

Isn't this one of the first instructions in the bhakta programs - keep your hands off, do not be alone with the opposite sex etc?

 

When I first read the initiating post for this thread - I thought - No, I really do not want to hear about this. Then I felt ashamed because if something happens to someone they should feel that they can talk about it even generically (no big details). No one should feel alone or ashamed.

[theist]

For sure LE. No need to go through life blinded by sentimentalism. The 'negative' should be seen along with the positive. When these imperfections come to light we just have to accept that Supersoul is directing us onward for further and deeper instruction.

 

The original poster is an instrument of Supersoul directing me to recheck my own desires and behavior. Siksa guru is everywhere if only I could see.

[Priitaa]

Yes, very strict instructions have been given and should be not only followed, but maintained.

 

I remember when I first joined and was told never to touch the opposite gender. At first I thought it was fanatical. Once on Harinama I 'thought' I saw a devotee tap a brahmacari on the shoulder to ask him something. Later I needed something too. Forget what, but it genuinely was needed. So I also tapped a brahmacari on the shoulder, and boy did I get n trouble! ha My reply? "But Vishaka just did it?" They said "No, she used a kartal to touch him with." Ahhh so THAT'S the trick! Initially I could not see a practial way to apply this rule when in life you needed to take care of some business. But this simple solution resolved it.

 

As far as initially seeing it as fanatical, I gave that up eon's ago. And with all the sexual abuse that goes on, it is an excellent and important rule!

 

I do hope the original poster will explain a little more and does not feel any shame or guilt, or that they should not speak up about this topic.

[I_love_krishna_]

"By bodily contact with a woman he will surely be captured by illusion, just as the elephant is captured by the she-elephant due to his desire to touch her body."

 

 

I don't get it! If a person from the same sex can touch another in a friendly way(unlustful way) why can't opposite sex people be free around each other with out caring for what body is what?

 

May be I am too liberal in this issue, but in my thinking trying to be too body conscious can really keep us in the bodily platform and not take us to the higher self.

 

Even though this is a very revolutionary question, please note that my intentions are not to go against our philosophies, but to understand them better.

 

 

"In fact, he should not even let his foot touch a wooden doll "

Sorry to be rude theistji, but I think we are trying to get out of illusion and not go into more delusion.

 

The point is , if we don't realize that the wood is just wood and the body is just nothing but muscles and bones put together in an arranged manner how the heck do we get out of this maya?

 

[I_love_krishna_]

""But Vishaka just did it?" They said "No, she used a kartal to touch him with." Ahhh so THAT'S the trick! Initially I could not see a practial way to apply this rule"

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif this is hilarious! sort of black comedy , but I just can't stop laughing.

[Guest guest]

 

"By bodily contact with a woman he will surely be captured by illusion, just as the elephant is captured by the she-elephant due to his desire to touch her body."

 

----

 

I don't get it! If a person from the same sex can touch another in a friendly way(unlustful way) why can't opposite sex people be free around each other with out caring for what body is what?

 

May be I am too liberal in this issue, but in my thinking trying to be too body conscious can really keep us in the bodily platform and not take us to the higher self.

 

Even though this is a very revolutionary question, please note that my intentions are not to go against our philosophies, but to understand them better.

 

 

"In fact, he should not even let his foot touch a wooden doll " Sorry to be rude theistji, but I think we are trying to get out of illusion and not go into more delusion.

 

The point is , if we don't realize that the wood is just wood and the body is just nothing but muscles and bones put together in an arranged manner how the heck do we get out of this maya?

 

 

I didn't realize this was to Thiest until I all ready started posting, and now I'm attached to responding. :-)

 

Often we don't realize how much we are under the influence of the bodily platform until we are to control our senses and deny that pleasure. Only when going thru that, do we recognize some feelings of 'cold turkey' ha or just some desire that can no longer be fulfilled, even if its something as small as touch on the hand. Wtihout it some devotees, especially in the beginning of brahmacari training, have a really hard time due to such a simple thing. So on the highest level you are right, there should be no problem with touching, but nobody is on the highest level. Matter of fact, we are all pretty much under the powerful controls of the material body.

 

[Priitaa]

That last post was from me. Sorry, thought I was logged in.

[Guest guest]

 

a temple is a place where people are cured of the "material life disease".....

 

in a hospital very often doctors and patients wear the same dresses

 

 

 

Not in any hospital I've ever seen.

 

A thread-initiated devotee should at least have attained a certain level of sad-achara etiquette. Saying that he is in the temple to be cured of his material disease is not an excuse. All of us are, of course. But if he is on the same level of behavior as an ordinary man, then he should not be initiated into the sacred thread. Otherwise, what is the meaning of it? So aside from ignoring birth as a prerequisite for brahmin status, now we ignore conduct as well?

 

Someone suggested that a girl touched in an inappropriate should speak up about it. The thing is, in Vedic culture, just about any touching of a girl by a boy is considered inappropriate, even so-called "innocent" touching often done by Westerners. A properly brought up girl touched in such a way isn't likely to "speak up" about it; it's more likely that she would permanently remove herself from the situation. And thus, we lose a potential supporter or even devotee. Again, Westernized ISKCON devotees will likely criticize this - why can't she just speak up, why can't she fight, etc. But chaste Vedic women don't do like this. It requires some understanding of the culture. I don't know how else to explain it...

 

I see many times in many places so much illicit association between men and women. Not necessarily gross sexual activity. But even common, seemingly "innocent" things which I was taught by my non-Krishna-conscious parents as unacceptable. If common Hindus who are ignorant of philosophy see Krishna devotees ignoring such simple, basic principles, they will not identify with the "Vedic culture" promoted by iskcon.

 

 

[Priitaa]

 

Someone suggested that a girl touched in an inappropriate should speak up about it.

 

 

I think you are referring to my quote, but I did not say she "should" speak up. What I said was I hope she did not feel so much shame or guilt that she would not speak up about it.

 

 

The thing is, in Vedic culture, just about any touching of a girl by a boy is considered inappropriate, even so-called "innocent" touching often done by Westerners.

 

 

Right.

 

 

A properly brought up girl touched in such a way isn't likely to "speak up"about it;

 

 

Depends upon your definition of what "properly" brought up means. The fact that nearly all Hindus girls are taught to keep quiet on this topic, that is not proper but dysfunctional training. It allows men to continue getting away with it too.

 

Add to that, more often than not the girl is blamed if she does speak up, is called low names, or that she deserved it, or she was flirting with him, etc, etc. This is also why Hindu girls do not speak up. And also why such men continue to get away with it further.

 

 

it's more likely that she would permanently remove herself from the situation.

 

 

When thats possible its one solution. When its not possible, she is left witout too many other options, especially since a 'proper' Hindu girl must not speak up.

 

 

And thus, we lose a potential supporter or even devotee. Again, Westernized ISKCON devotees will likely criticize this - why can't she just speak up, why can't she fight, etc. But chaste Vedic women don't do like this. It requires some understanding of the culture. I don't know how else to explain it...

 

 

I dont know what makes you think there is anything chaste OR Vedic about women supressing inappropriate touch, which is a crime. It has nothing to do with being westerinized, thats just an excuse to sound better than us, as well as encourage this tpye of repression, which can result in emotinal illness.

 

[theist]

What I posted was just a verse from the Bhagavatam. The fact is we don't even know what motivates our own action. If we are not being motivated by a desire to serve Krsna then I figure we are being motivated to enjoy maya in some way.

 

Look, I lust at women's bodies all day long. It's a powerful thing and actually natural in a way for the body. As long as I think I am a physical form I will be identifying with desires for it's sense gratification. That I have to learn to tolerate and gradually rise above.

 

But we are talking about conduct at a temple by people who have chosen to decorate their bodies in a way that declares them to be devotees of Krsna.

 

That action must carry some responsibility in terms of being cautious about how we are perceived.

 

What can I say. Don't fart in the temple room before the Deities. Basic manners.

 

When at the temple we should remeber we are before the Lord. Yes that should be everywhere at all times but if we can't maintain it there how will we outside of that setting.

 

So its practice. Practice means it is not yet natural so we must practice until it is natural. At the very least while we are at the temple or some devotional setting.

 

If we turn such gatherings into little parties for our own sense gratification by getting too loose and losing our focus, then what is the point. I don't mean we should be stiff and overly formal either but there is a balance point.

 

At the very least we are trying to become free from death. Beyond that to develop love for God. We should not be distracted or distract others.

 

I can't help but air my pet peeve at this point. People that talk during lectures. Or let their kids run all over making noise. Or who go in and out of the room ringing the bell each time they come back in, disturbing the talk...WAKE THE ___K UP! Become conscious! People are trying to receive the knowledge meant to free them from birth and death! MAN!!!

 

I feel better now.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

my attempt was not to negate the right rules of behaviour, but to explain that in a temple live also people who are not advanced (and it is not my fault).... and not only for this relatively little problem

 

it could be sad but this is a fact, we have to take care for ourselves even when we are at the temple

[Priitaa]

 

I can't help but air my pet peeve at this point. People that talk during lectures. Or let their kids run all over making noise. Or who go in and out of the room ringing the bell each time they come back in, disturbing the talk...WAKE THE ___K UP! Become conscious! People are trying to receive the knowledge meant to free them from birth and death! MAN!!!

 

 

Thiest, I was agreeing until we got to this quote. Talk to me when you have kids! lol

 

That is, you have no idea what its like to try to follow Prabhupada's idea of raising them in the temple, so you bring them to class with a coloring book to keep them quiet, then you are told not to let them color. So you get rid of the coloring book and they start running around. You engage them in a quiet game and someone complains about that. You move to the back and they go in and out the back door that, tho its a noise, its not very loud and would only bother those with bad nerves, or other things. I remember the time Ramesvara insisted that the mother put their hand over the childs mouth the second the child even appeared to make a sound, then take them out. So as they grew older we ended up with all these kids with emotional problems cuz they had a hand glued to thier mouth cuz no 'monk' or those who are suppose to be exhibiting spiriutal qualities including tolerance, could handle hearing a child's sounds. (And they wonder why so many householders quite attending.)

 

I also can't help but wonder how much of that is from the sound and how much is just a dislike of children. Not saying this about you, just in general. I could go on, but you can see how there are reasons and various points of view why these things go on in the temple room. I always say, if ya want the least amount of interruptions, sit up front. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Priitaa]

 

my attempt was not to negate the right rules of behaviour, but to explain that in a temple live also people who are not advanced (and it is not my fault).... and not only for this relatively little problem

 

it could be sad but this is a fact, we have to take care for ourselves even when we are at the temple

 

 

Now this, we can agree on. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Not only do we have to take care of ourselves at the temple, but even keep an eye out for our chlidren so no one ummmmm exploits them either. Sad, but drastic measures are called for during drastic times. Its kali yuga, after all.

[theist]

Priitaa,

 

I have little or no contact with any temple now so it was just a lingering bug in my subconscious. But it is not just the kids(who by the way i get along great with) its adults who sit there and chit chat while some sannyasi is giving a talk.

 

I am not talking about during kirtans now just during lectures.

 

The solution is for a sound room away from the temple room with the lectures piped in.

 

When I was very young they had these in some movie theaters. In th back balcony they had these glassed in rooms that i think were sound proof. You could see the whole screen with the sound piped in and no one outside could hear the adorable rugrats crying and rippin' about. Worked great.

[sushil_kanoria]

Hare Krishna to all the devotees !!

 

I would like to add few points regarding this topic.

First of all I would like to say is, the scriptures are at

very higher level comparing with our level, they know what

is good & what is bad for the human beings, when scriptures

says that association of women should be avoided, then we

have to take the words & act accordingly.

It is clearly mentioned in the Bhagwatam that, a grown up

child is not suppose to sleep with his mother, what to speak

of other women. We have to obey the scripture & follow it,

I myself feel it has very accurately & rightly written.

 

I would like to give an e.g. Cowdung is very scared thing

clearly mentioned in the Bhagwatam, & till date you will find

in the Indian villages that women smear the floor of their

houses with cowdung, since time immemorial. People in the

western coutry previously used to consider cowdung as bad

thing <.> very commonly used word, but now as they have

tested in the laboratory & found that not only cowdung but

cow urine also have many medicinal properties. In Rural india

people are illiterate & uneducated, no scientist told them

regarding the medicinal properties of cowdung, but they know

through the scriptures that cowdung is sacred, & hence without

any doubt they are using it.

So the moral of the story is, We can blindly follow the scriptures

or wait untill the things are tested, So it's upto you :-).

So beware of the gals, avoid talking to them, cos once u start

talking with them, slowly-slowly you feel to touch her, & once

you touch her, you very well know what is the next step. So

beware of gals, they are very dangerous speices in the

universe /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

 

 

Hari Bol,

Sushil

[Guest guest]

 

Depends upon your definition of what "properly" brought up means. The fact that nearly all Hindus girls are taught to keep quiet on this topic, that is not proper but dysfunctional training. It allows men to continue getting away with it too.

 

 

 

I think you have a different angle on this than I do. What I mean is, the girl isn't necessarily taught to "keep quiet" or feel ashamed. She dislikes being touched (even in ways considered to be innocent by Westerners) and does not expect to be touched by people calling themselves devotees, practitioners of Vedic culture, etc. When it happened (a tap on the shoulder - many Westerners wouldn't think anything of it), she told me about it quite frankly, and more or less indicated with her facial expression that she would prefer never to have to go to an iskcon temple again. Actually, she didn't even say that explicitly, because another thing I have noticed about women from India with her conservative background is that they try to avoid any sort of verbal disagreement with their husband. Needless to say, I could read between the lines.

 

At the risk of sounding sexist, I noticed that while women tend to be more innately pious than men, they are less philosphically inclined. This isn't something you notice in iskcon because everyone there got attracted to some extent by philosophy. But it's true to a large extent in Indian society outside iskcon. The point I'm making is this - I can't attract her to iskcon with philosophy, so I must settle for attracting her with culture. But I can't attract her by the culture, because the whole kirtana-style of worship is foreign to her, as she is not from North India. Not a problem, I figure, because at least she ought to be attracted to the good association and the natural good qualities you would see in devotees. But here again, my plans are repeatedly sabotaged by devotees who can't control their senses, despite wearing dhoti, tilak, etc they try to touch her, or they touch other girls in front of her, or they give fanatical classes, or they like listening to Bollywood music. The list goes on and on. I have repeatedly been embarassed by the behavior of ISKCON devotees in this regard. I once went to a wedding party between two ISKCON congregational members (not initiated), although it was heavily planned by the bride's brother who was initiated. There was so much dancing to Bollywood music, with Western ISKCON devotees acting very much like their Indian counterparts. All of this was going on IN FRONT of several ISKCON senior devotees, at least one of whom I could identify as a GBC. My wife looked at this in disgust and pointed out that she had never been brought up to engage in such behavior. I was in complete agreement. Neither of us were born Krishna-conscious and yet our parents had raised us more strictly than many of these ISKCOn devotees had been taught.

 

I very much like the idea of coming to a Vaishnava temple. And as I am married I want to bring my wife too. I like the worship focused on Krishna and the fact that you hear nice, sastrically based Krishna-katha. But it becomes a source of conflict that I want to bring my wife who is understandably weirded out by these iskcon devotees - both western and indian. I wish they would follow the spirit as well as the letter of the regulative principles so that she didn't experience so much loathing when coming to the temple. Then maybe we could learn from them and become better Vaishnavas ourselves.