Men and women in ISKCON

[theist]

 

I once went to a wedding party between two ISKCON congregational members (not initiated), although it was heavily planned by the bride's brother who was initiated. There was so much dancing to Bollywood music, with Western ISKCON devotees acting very much like their Indian counterparts. All of this was going on IN FRONT of several ISKCON senior devotees, at least one of whom I could identify as a GBC.

 

 

Bollywood music???? Perhaps it's time to toss out the money changers.

 

I can only hope this was not at a temple but the presence of senior devotees and a GBC member is disconcerting wherever it may have been held.

[I_love_krishna_]

I have only gone once to an Iskon temple, which was a good experience by the way, but what sort of touching are you talking about?

 

A simple tap on the shoulder to make some one turn is not a sexual touch. A lustful touch is quite different..

 

I understand that being too free would take some people's minds away from Radha Krishna but being too strict with ridiculous rules would also take people away from Radha-Krishna.

---------------------

However, if there is a lot of sexual touching going on, then wouldn't that mean that temples are not really devotee places anymore?

 

[livingentity]

This may be hard to understand and it is also hard for me to explain perhaps someone else can do it better but for now I will try briefly.

 

Skin is the bodies most sensitive organ (and also a sexual organ)and just a touch can be quite disturbing to someone. Everyone has spots of skin that are more sensitive than others (I am NOT talking about the most obvious parts - ok!) and for some a soft tap on the shoulder can be the catalyse of a turn-on.

 

Different people are going to react differently - for some it might be the shoulder, the knee etc. For some it might just be the fact that the opposite sex touched them. So this can be quite dangerous for someone who has taken a vow to celebacy which is difficult enough without someone touching them.

 

So a woman should not just walk around touching men - we must consider that some will mis-read our intentions. We should also be aware of men reaching out and touching us - they may be doing it unconsiously but it could be a disturbance to him or her or both.

 

I am not saying that we should withdraw and jump away from in fear of them touching but we can learn to gently discourage it which is really easy to do without yelling at everyone - "DON'T TOUCH ME!" which I have actually seen people do. I only tell people that if they keep insisting even after I step back from them the first time they touch.

 

The eyes are also very dangerous and one look can set someone off. So I now understand why it is said that a woman should not look a man in the eyes.

 

 

A simple tap on the shoulder to make some one turn is not a sexual touch. A lustful touch is quite different..

 

 

[Priitaa]

Thiest,

 

I agree with this! Especially in Alachua lately, as I go there once in a while, the front of the temple is usually paying attention, but in the back it beomcomes social hour. Even, it can seep up front! This is different from what I was talking about in my last post, and I too get annoyed with it!

 

As for the room with sound piped in, I agree, but it seldom is maintained by the men who have to maintain it. I have sat in dirty laundry rooms and all sorts of corners to hear class without going inside. And even 'that' eventually broke down and no one fixed it. Once they had lectures over low band radio (so no one else would complain) and it was great! Any mata could hear class. But that quickly fell apart. So, if they want the women and the children not to disturb, they have to provide facility, it should also be clean facility, and it should be maintained.

 

I wish you were not avoiding the temple tho. I go when I can and the things I dont like, I just leave before they start, or when they start. Whichever happens first.

[Priitaa]

 

I think you have a different angle on this than I do. What I mean is, the girl isn't necessarily taught to "keep quiet" or feel ashamed. She dislikes being touched (even in ways considered to be innocent by Westerners) and does not expect to be touched by people calling themselves devotees, practitioners of Vedic culture, etc.

 

 

 

And what makes you think us 'western' devotee women are any different?

 

 

When it happened (a tap on the shoulder - many Westerners wouldn't think anything of it), she told me about it quite frankly, and more or less indicated with her facial expression that she would prefer never to have to go to an iskcon temple again.

 

 

 

I agree that no man should have tapped her on the shoulder, but there are many men who are new to Krishna consciousness and don't know any better -- yet. They will! We are a preaching movment and aren't about to disallow new men from moving in for this reason. I think this you will understand, and hope she will too. When we understand the mood of preaching, we can raise our tolerance level and not take it so personally.

 

 

Actually, she didn't even say that explicitly,

 

 

 

Therefore you don't facutally know and can only speculate.

 

 

because another thing I have noticed about women from India with her conservative background is that they try to avoid any sort of verbal disagreement with their husband.

 

 

This is another topic and not about how to be Krishna conscious but how woman and man should or should not behave toward each other, and while idealistically that sounds great, I have seen too much abuse go on due to a submissive wife, so lets stick with the topic at hand.

 

 

Needless to say, I could read between the lines.

 

 

 

Maybe, but its still speculation.

 

 

At the risk of sounding sexist, I noticed that while women tend to be more innately pious than men, they are less philosphically inclined.

 

 

 

Oh, more than sounding sexist. It "is" a sexist statement. ha Oddly, it is the Western women that actually move into the ashrama due to strong philosphical interest and a desire to hear and learn philosophy regularly. In kali yuga a person can no longer evaluate who should act like what (or in accordance to gender), but must look at their jyotish astrological chart and see who is philosopher, who is simple woman.

 

 

This isn't something you notice in iskcon because everyone there got attracted to some extent by philosophy.

 

 

 

Right. However, I do not see philosophy about Krishna as a distraction, unless you mean a distraction away from the bodily concept. In wihch case you are right, we are working very hard to 'forget' we are man or woman.

 

 

But it's true to a large extent in Indian society outside iskcon.

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

The point I'm making is this - I can't attract her to iskcon with philosophy, so I must settle for attracting her with culture. But I can't attract her by the culture, because the whole kirtana-style of worship is foreign to her, as she is not from North India. Not a problem, I figure, because at least she ought to be attracted to the good association and the natural good qualities you would see in devotees. But here again, my plans are repeatedly sabotaged by devotees who can't control their senses, despite wearing dhoti, tilak, etc they try to touch her, or they touch other girls in front of her, or they give fanatical classes,

 

 

 

We are in agreement over the unlimited fanatical classes often given in ISKCON, which is why I walk out the door after Prabhupada's purport is read. But when it comes to Kirtana, she needs to realize its not about culture, Prabhupada gave us something transcendental. Lord Caitanya was dancing and jumping in the streets! So like anyone else, she needs to give up the parts of her past culture that are not in synch to the highest ones.

 

 

or they like listening to Bollywood music.

 

 

 

I'd like to know more about this one! What do you classify as Bollywood music, and where are devotees listening to it? In the temple?

 

{quote]The list goes on and on. I have repeatedly been embarassed by the behavior of ISKCON devotees in this regard. I once went to a wedding party between two ISKCON congregational members (not initiated), although it was heavily planned by the bride's brother who was initiated. There was so much dancing to Bollywood music, {/quote]

 

Again, please clarify what is Bollywood music? Is it music used in Hindu movies that we would classify as kirtans? Or is it some other type of music? Because if it is just a wild kirtana, that is part of what Lord Chaitanya taught! We dont tell women to stand there like a stick with their hands at their side, but they get to dance to the Lords Holy Names. This is the time to forget we are the body, at least for this short while, and enter into transcendence, as much as possible anyway. But I would like to know what you call Bollywood music?

 

 

with Western ISKCON devotees acting very much like their Indian counterparts. All of this was going on IN FRONT of several ISKCON senior devotees, at least one of whom I could identify as a GBC. My wife

 

 

 

Your wife? Is this woman your wife?

 

 

looked at this in disgust and pointed out that she had never been brought up to engage in such behavior. I was in complete agreement. Neither of us were born Krishna-conscious and yet our parents had raised us more strictly than many of these ISKCOn devotees had been taught.

 

I very much like the idea of coming to a Vaishnava temple. And as I am married I want to bring my wife too. I like the worship focused on Krishna and the fact that you hear nice, sastrically based Krishna-katha. But it becomes a source of conflict that I want to bring my wife who is understandably weirded out by these iskcon devotees - both western and indian. I wish they would follow the spirit as well as the letter of the regulative principles so that she didn't experience so much loathing when coming to the temple. Then maybe we could learn from them and become better Vaishnavas ourselves.

 

 

 

I do have compassion and interest in your problem, and would like to help, but what you are criticizing is not yet clear. Maybe I can help you once I find out if you just call our more outward preaching energy and preaching mission to be disturbing because it is different from your past culture, or if their is something genuinely wrong going on.

[Priitaa]

LE,

 

I agree with you that the skin is very sensitive. Maybe its because I sometimes practice a little Pranic Healing or similar, and have therefore become more fine tuned to energies around myself and others (tho I find that was all ready there, to a degree), but you are correct about not touching. Also that some people have spots which are more sensitive then others, as well as sensitivity and reaction is all individual.

 

Yet, I have heard so much (to extremes) how women should cover their head, not look up, not touch, what women should and should not do, etc, etc., etc., from living in the ashrama, as if it was 99.9% of it was our responsibility, as well as seen the result. So I am not in disagreement, I just think its time the brahmacari's heard it, but heard it wihtout the inclusion of disgust toward the opposite gender or spitting at the sight of women (highly immature but never ends), and instead focus on self control and self purification. Not saying you disagree with this either. I just wanted to point it out.

 

Yes, I too step back upon any first touch! It generally sends the message real quick. :-)

[livingentity]

Priitaa dd,

 

Yes, just stepping back at first touch is usually all that is needed. I try to stand at least a little over arm's length away anyway and that helps. I do not like for anyone - male or female - to be right in my face talking to me like some like to do.

 

I totally agree that the men need to take some responsibility in this also and quit placing the blame totally on the women. I am glad you brought this up. The blame should not be place fully on one gender. A lot of the do nots that are placed on women need to be placed on the men also.

 

 

[Guest guest]

but if you have to be so body conscious then how the heck do you realize your true inner being, which is a servant of krishna?

 

"spitting at the sight of women (highly immature but never ends), and instead focus on self control and self purification."

 

I did not see this when I went to the temple, but if we want to be free, shouldn't we start denying that we are our bodies, then why do we need to put so much emphasis on our gender?

 

If people mis-read me then it is not my fault, it is their own mind, their own impurity, but if I start being body conscious that would mean that I agree that I am this body and this goes against all the scriptures.

 

[Guest guest]

is no other than I_l_k.

 

thank you.

[Guest guest]

 

 

And what makes you think us 'western' devotee women are any different?

 

 

 

Some Western devotee women are no different. Other Western women, devotee or not, are different. I used to go to this one ISKCON temple (I won't say where, there are still some people there whom i respect) where I noticed these teenage girls whose parents were initiated devotees. One day these girls were wearing saris and looking very fixed up, but then the next day they would be wearing blue jeans, smoking cigarettes (someone later told me they were marijuana cigarettes), and doing unspeakable things with boys in the alleys between temple buildings. Like this they would alternate and i could never figure out what it was they wanted.

 

Anyway, my point is simply that women brought up in traditional Vedic culture will not like to be touched even casually by other men. Some Western devotee women I notice are also like that, which is good. Other women, both Western and Indian, are not; but they should learn to be like that. Chastity is observed through body, mind, and words, not just 1-2 out of 3.

 

 

I agree that no man should have tapped her on the shoulder, but there are many men who are new to Krishna consciousness and don't know any better -- yet. They will! We are a preaching movment and aren't about to disallow new men from moving in for this reason. I think this you will understand, and hope she will too. When we understand the mood of preaching, we can raise our tolerance level and not take it so personally.

 

 

 

The devotee who tapped her and been in Krishna-consciousness for over 20 years, was a twice initiated devotee of a very respectable spiritual leader in ISKCON, and was someone I had lots of personal respect for. He was among the seniormost devotees in that temple and was a pujari as well.

 

I think that such a person should be held to higher standards than just any Tom, Dick, or Harry who visits the temple as a spiritual seeker.

 

 

Therefore you don't facutally know and can only speculate.

 

 

 

Well, I can only speak for my own relationship. But one of the things I have learned as a husband is how to read my wife's thoughts when she doesn't voice them. Because she often won't voice any thoughts which she thinks I will find distressing! And in this case, I was definitely right - she objected to the behavior of ISKCON devotees, did not feel comfortable in their temples, and thus she did not want to go there. I even asked this point blank and she finally admitted it. I wished I was wrong.

 

 

Oh, more than sounding sexist. It "is" a sexist statement. ha Oddly, it is the Western women that actually move into the ashrama due to strong philosphical interest and a desire to hear and learn philosophy regularly. In kali yuga a person can no longer evaluate who should act like what (or in accordance to gender), but must look at their jyotish astrological chart and see who is philosopher, who is simple woman.

 

 

 

As I mentioned before, I am speaking about Indian women OUTSIDE of ISKCON, not women inside of ISKCON. Obviously women inside of iskcon have at least a passing familiarity with philosophy - they have to. But women outside ISKCON I have noticed are not so philosophically inclined. I know, it sounds sexist. But i have noticed this many times - that I can't sway the women in our Indian, non-ISKCON community by giving proper arguments from scripture. They often act like they can't "hear" me and just say the same things over and over again that are disproven by scripture. I could never understand this, but I have learned to just accept that this is their nature. Actually, even the men are also stubborn in that way, but usually they will become silent after a while instead of repeating the same thing over and over.

 

Still, they could all be attracted to Krishna-consciousness by appreciation of the devotees' natural piety. A Krishna devotee should automatically have all good qualities according to Bhaktivedanta Swami. But this has only been my observation with at most a handful of devotees.

 

 

We are in agreement over the unlimited fanatical classes often given in ISKCON, which is why I walk out the door after Prabhupada's purport is read. But when it comes to Kirtana, she needs to realize its not about culture, Prabhupada gave us something transcendental. Lord Caitanya was dancing and jumping in the streets! So like anyone else, she needs to give up the parts of her past culture that are not in synch to the highest ones.

 

 

 

Things like "transcendental" are not well understood by those who are not philosphically inclined in the first place. Practically everything in her native culture is Krishna-conscious, but unfortunately lack of philosophical understanding prevents her from appreciating iskcon, which is just another incarnation of the same Krishna-conscious culture. As I said before, if devotees could practice the same universal principles of dharma which she was raised to believe in, and which Srila Prabhupada taught them, the recognition would come immediately. It is because they do not that this has become such a difficult situation for me.

 

Anyway, if I'm sexist for what I said, saying that she needs to give up certain aspects of her culture is a little ethnocentric, even if that's not what you meant. What prevents her from coming to iskcon temple is her culturally based expectations that brahmins should behave in a certain way, that men and women should be chaste in body, mind, and words, that regulative principles should be followed both in spirit and literally, and so on. These things she is not going to give up, and I won't let her even if she was inclined to. There is something wrong with the idea that one should develop lower expectations of dharma in order to associate with iskcon. Rather, I suggest that ISKCON needs to have higher expectations of themselves rather than making fun of some people who don't want to come to their temples.

 

 

Again, please clarify what is Bollywood music? Is it music used in Hindu movies that we would classify as kirtans? Or is it some other type of music? Because if it is just a wild kirtana, that is part of what Lord Chaitanya taught! We dont tell women to stand there like a stick with their hands at their side, but they get to dance to the Lords Holy Names. This is the time to forget we are the body, at least for this short while, and enter into transcendence, as much as possible anyway. But I would like to know what you call Bollywood music?

 

 

 

Bollywood movies are movies made in India. Bollywood music is music from those movies. All Bollywood music is about sex. That's all. "falling in love" and all that. It's either about sex in a very gross way or it is about sex in a more subtle way. But it is just about sex. That's it. It has nothing to do with glorifying Hari with other devotees. Bollywood music is complete trash. It's really nothing more than stool, in fact.

 

But there are devotees who like to eat this stool because they see Indians doing it, so they think because Indians do it, that therefore it is somehow bona fide. Not only that, but I notice devotees even dressing like Indians for the same reason - wearing flashy gagras, punjabi dresses, or expensive silk kurthas. And they become like nondevotee Indians in other ways also - by talking very loudly about nonsense, eating karmi food, dancing to karmi music, and so on.

 

Really, I am scared that by associating with such people I will just become degraded. So I try to look for that handful of devotees who really follow all the principles. That way I can learn from them and become better devotee myself. Unfortunately, it's hard to find them as they are always engaged in devotional service. And I and my wife have to endure the behavior of so many less sincere devotees who look like devotees.

[theist]

You may realize you are not the body. You may be like Sukadeva Gosvami but others are not. So to set a good example for others not so advanced one should not touch or unnecessarily approach a woman especially another's wife.

 

Also we have a mixing of cultures and all sides should be a little patient and mindful of others ways.

 

It shouldn't be so hard. By nature I'm really pretty loose, too loose in many ways. But around the temple I try to be more on gaurd of my habits.

 

This gentleman is simply bringing to mind that his wife feels some discomfort over something. She doesn't like men touching her. So someone may think she is overreacting.

 

Maybe if we thought "Would I touch her if Prabhupada was in the house?" Then if we remember that he is and act accordingly all should be OK.

[livingentity]

Excellent explanation!! We need to remember Prabhupada's instructions always and also that He is in the house (temple) and always try to please Him by following His perfect instructions.

 

I am glad the original poster started this thread. It is thought provoking and a learning experience for us all.

 

I have been giving a lot thought now to my own habits and how my actions might be perceived by others.

 

I don't know about anyone else here but I certainly am not like Sukadeva Gosvami and totally unbody conscious!!! I need the example of the advanced devotees to help me.

[Priitaa]

Haribol /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

First, and I know you did not do this with intent, but you spliced my quote a little too soon. It should have read:

 

"wihtout the inclusion of disgust toward the opposite gender or spitting at the sight of women (highly immature but never ends)"

 

(Typo and all. ha)

 

You say:

"I did not see this when I went to the temple, but if we want to be free, shouldn't we start denying that we are our bodies, then why do we need to put so much emphasis on our gender? "

 

I was not saying spitting goes on regularly (tho I DO know it has actually happened, one time at a RathaYatra I was at, a 'brahmacari' spit on a woman there, and that news spread like wildfire.) But treating women lesser or taking advatage of them, not sexually anymore since they usually can't get away with that, but making them do all the jobs no one else will do, or giving them the worse room to live in, etc (where is the woman protection?!), this still goes on. And of course you did not see it when 'visting' the temple. ha Do you really think they are gonna show you that? /images/graemlins/smile.gif However, I will say it does not always go on, and that it has reduced over the years. If we take responsibility and stay on top of it, who knows, we may even turn this kali yuga trait around!

 

You say:

"If people mis-read me then it is not my fault, it is their own mind, their own impurity, but if I start being body conscious that would mean that I agree that I am this body and this goes against all the scriptures. "

 

I dont think I am misunderstanding you. With that said, I do know what you are expressing here, as I have heard it before and often. All I can say is, you are all ready on the bodily concept merely by being so attached to reacting bodily, and if you give it up for a while you will see how much you wanted to touch the opposite gender, even if it fits in the category of 'innocent' it still was not transcendental.

 

[Priitaa]

Haribol Guest,

 

"Some Western devotee women are no different. Other Western women, devotee or not, are different. I used to go to this one ISKCON temple (I won't say where, there are still some people there whom i respect) where I noticed these teenage girls whose parents were initiated devotees. One day these girls were wearing saris and looking very fixed up, but then the next day they would be wearing blue jeans, smoking cigarettes (someone later told me they were marijuana cigarettes), and doing unspeakable things with boys in the alleys between temple buildings. Like this they would alternate and i could never figure out what it was they wanted"

 

I have heard this before, tho only recently. Maybe things have changed since Prabhupada was here, I dont know, but if we did any of those things you mentioned, us western girls would either be kicked out of the temple or given a warning, and then kicked out if we blew it.

 

Though one thing comes to mind. And that is, you may have seen some of our gurukulis who, sadly, had to put up with abuse of all sorts from mentally ill adults who manged to get themselves into positions of authority. Now that they are grown up, they are acting out. I don't know what to do for them (if that is who you saw) but I have a lot of compassion and patience with them. I doubt I could have survived what they were put through. Tho I am not saying this is who you saw.

 

"Anyway, my point is simply that women brought up in traditional Vedic culture will not like to be touched even casually by other men. Some Western devotee women I notice are also like that, which is good. Other women, both Western and Indian, are not; but they should learn to be like that. Chastity is observed through body, mind, and words, not just 1-2 out of 3. "

 

Right. Well again, that is the way it was when Prabhupada was here. I dont know what kind of training these brahmacarini's are getting these days.

 

"The devotee who tapped her and been in Krishna-consciousness for over 20 years, was a twice initiated devotee of a very respectable spiritual leader in ISKCON, and was someone I had lots of personal respect for. He was among the seniormost devotees in that temple and was a pujari as well."

 

That is most unfortunate. Thinking about it, I realize I have been hearing this about various authorities in our movement, tho not all of course, but some who are trying to hold on to their positin yet want to let it go in order to get the enjoyment others get. They are torn. Not an excuse tho. And there are other such authorities, but they even think they have been around so long they have the right to break a few rules. I disagree.

 

"I think that such a person should be held to higher standards than just any Tom, Dick, or Harry who visits the temple as a spiritual seeker."

 

I agree here completely.

 

(snip)

 

"As I mentioned before, I am speaking about Indian women OUTSIDE of ISKCON, not women inside of ISKCON. Obviously women inside of iskcon have at least a passing familiarity with philosophy - they have to. But women outside ISKCON I have noticed are not so philosophically inclined. I know, it sounds sexist. But i have noticed this many times - that I can't sway the women in our Indian, non-ISKCON community by giving proper arguments from scripture. They often act like they can't "hear" me and just say the same things over and over again that are disproven by scripture. I could never understand this, but I have learned to just accept that this is their nature. Actually, even the men are also stubborn in that way, but usually they will become silent after a while instead of repeating the same thing over and over. "

 

Well, yes, but women outside iskcon are considered (oooo that bad word folks) "karmis." Before anyone blasts me :-) I do not mean it as a put down, simply that there is a difference between the deovtee and the nondevotee. However, this applies to men too.

 

"Still, they could all be attracted to Krishna-consciousness by appreciation of the devotees' natural piety. A Krishna devotee should automatically have all good qualities according to Bhaktivedanta Swami. But this has only been my observation with at most a handful of devotees. "

 

Right. Things have changed since Bhaktivedanta Swami.

 

"Things like "transcendental" are not well understood by those who are not philosphically inclined in the first place. Practically everything in her native culture is Krishna-conscious, but unfortunately lack of philosophical understanding prevents her from appreciating iskcon, which is just another incarnation of the same Krishna-conscious culture. As I said before, if devotees could practice the same universal principles of dharma which she was raised to believe in, and which Srila Prabhupada taught them, the recognition would come immediately. It is because they do not that this has become such a difficult situation for me. "

 

I guess I dont understand why things like 'transcendental' are not understood. I don't see where it requires a lot of philosohical understanding to grasp. I was only 19 when I first heard this word and I went right for it. I dont consider myself a rocket scientist. ha Maybe there is something I am missing here, or maybe she just needs spiriutal enlivenment or whatever you want to call it, explained to her in better words for her persona.

 

"Anyway, if I'm sexist for what I said, saying that she needs to give up certain aspects of her culture is a little ethnocentric, even if that's not what you meant."

 

Whether you are sexist or not, I dont really care. Especially since you dont want to be or are not pushing for it. But I stand by my former 'ethnoecentric' words. LOL

 

" What prevents her from coming to iskcon temple is her culturally based expectations that brahmins should behave in a certain way,"

 

You see, this is what I am trying to explain. Maybe I am not doing that so well. Anyway, I DO get it that we are all somewhat effected by our culture, and I agree some degree of exception and understanding must be included. With that done however, Prabhupada's method is above all this culture stuff, and while he includes it for those who wnat it, we can see even in India, he did not like the smarta brahmana's. Found them to be not following properly but yet 'socially' or culturally accepted as if they were so strict, when many of them were not. So if she looks behind what she thinks was so first class or proper, she will find a lot of improper nonsense going on.

 

" that men and women should be chaste in body, mind, and words, that regulative principles should be followed both in spirit and literally, and so on."

 

Well, if this is all you were talking about above and saying it is cultural, I don't think it is cultural but the road to true spiriutal life. So again we are in agreement.

 

" These things she is not going to give up, and I won't let her even if she was inclined to. There is something wrong with the idea that one should develop lower expectations of dharma in order to associate with iskcon. Rather, I suggest that ISKCON needs to have higher expectations of themselves rather than making fun of some people who don't want to come to their temples. "

 

Join the crowd. ha Many of us have been screaming this to iskcon for eons. They dont listen. So you see, it is not a cultural thing or (unforutnately) not a new discovery. We are all unhappy with it, but have tried everything we know how to do.

 

"Bollywood movies are movies made in India. Bollywood music is music from those movies. All Bollywood music is about sex. That's all. "falling in love" and all that. It's either about sex in a very gross way or it is about sex in a more subtle way. But it is just about sex. That's it. It has nothing to do with glorifying Hari with other devotees. Bollywood music is complete trash. It's really nothing more than stool, in fact."

 

That's disgusing. I am started that such music was played at a marrige! And that GBC was there and said nothing. Do you think maybe this was a Gurukuli marriage?

 

"But there are devotees who like to eat this stool because they see Indians doing it, so they think because Indians do it, that therefore it is somehow bona fide."

 

Good point.

 

"Not only that, but I notice devotees even dressing like Indians for the same reason - wearing flashy gagras, punjabi dresses, or expensive silk kurthas. "

 

I have also noticed this too. Prabhupada gave us a simple way to dress, and in any religion, even Christian, you will see the minister of the church for example, wearing simple clothes, owning the most inexpensive jalopy of a car, eating simple, etc. But I agree there are some within the movement who like to dress flashy (including men, I think they stand out more too, when they do this), and show off. Actually, have no problem when a woman wants to dress up for a spirutal holiday, or in general, even a man. But when I see a man walking wiht a fine carved cane who has no leg problem, and ruffled silk dhoti,etc., tho I still respect him as a devotee and feel he is probalby going thru a phase, if that phase does not pass, I begin to feel uncomfortalbe about this representative of Srila Prabhupada and wish someone would help him out.

 

"And they become like nondevotee Indians in other ways also - by talking very loudly about nonsense, eating karmi food, dancing to karmi music, and so on. "

 

Yes, except meat. Although there may be an exception, I have never seen a devotee fall to the degree of meat eating.

 

"Really, I am scared that by associating with such people I will just become degraded. So I try to look for that handful of devotees who really follow all the principles."

 

You sounds like us old Prabhupada disciples. ha

 

" That way I can learn from them and become better devotee myself. Unfortunately, it's hard to find them as they are always engaged in devotional service."

 

Or hiding to protect their devotional creeper. :-)

 

" And I and my wife have to endure the behavior of so many less sincere devotees who look like devotees. "

 

I think we are in agreement at least by 90%, maybe more. But I am sorry I dont have the solution. I do have 'a' solution, some of which I touched on above. Like I said I leave after they read Prabhupada's purports in the temple in order to avoid the fanaticism (I do not feel fanaticsm is real religiousity), I to various Krishna conscious , I get my devotee association more on line latey - tho in part due to health, but also have met some wonderful godsisters who have become email buddies, and rekindled some old godsister relationships via email with those I have known for years. I make sure to engage in some form of devotional service daily, as well as put out a newsletter on Krishna consciousness and on Prabhupada. Of course, chanting and reading too. If we keep ourselves engaged in whatever way Krishna has provided for us, then all is well. Or at least better. /images/graemlins/smile.gif And over time it will get even better, problems become resolved.

[Guest guest]

Bollywood movies are not about sex! they are about love...

 

Love is way different from sex. Please feel free to share the facts but don't mislead people who are not very familiar with the bollywood movies.

 

I watch bollywood movies, they are expensive but they are not about sex. They are always about love and the meeting of two beautiful people.

 

I never saw sex or pornographic seens in bollywood, otherwise my parents wouldn't let me see them.

 

Even though some bollywood songs provoke sex, they are not played in Indian parties and marriage receptions because they are considered inappropriate.

 

Some bollywood movies also put in Radha/Krishna in their songs to show their intense love and desire for each other.

The songs they play at the Indian marriages/Receptions are the songs of Radha Krishna.

 

Usually, the Gujurati Indians dance at their marriages. The dance also is a stick dance where boys and girls hit each others sticks .... and go around in circles. It is similar to the rasa dance and is usually a dance about Radha and Krishna.

 

If it is not about Radha/krishna then it is probably a dance to a song extolling the feeling of love.

 

It is not inappropriate or disgusting to dance at marriages. I went to several Gujurati dances and Baby showers and I have danced with them.

 

The Guestji here had probably went to a Gujurati marriage with his wife, but being a southern Indian, he saw people dancing to a bollywood song about love. There he and his wife probably got disgusted due to their stereotypical view of bollywood movies.

 

I do not think that Bollywood movies are disgusting. I also think that 97% of the Indians, both in and out of America and India are like me...

 

However, some think that "The feeling of love= The sex act"

They also watch these movies, but they just comment negatively on every single fricking dialogue in the movie.

[gHari]

Stepping back would surely work, but I am so quick that they can see me flinch and move before as they begin to make their move. I also flinch at non-devotee males. Remembering Lord Nrsimhadeva's fierce form also tends to keep them away, just like a mosquito net.

 

In the temple I trust everyone, and often find myself being literally body-checked by rushing middle-aged Indian mothers. Hip-to-hip jolts sometime leave me bewildered at their callousness, but then I just remember it's all Krsna's mercy and don't give it another thought.

 

Of course, in front of Lord Jagannatha at Ratha Yatra, deep in the enchantment, one cannot seem to help but become part of the sea of devotional bodies.

[Guest guest]

I am logging in but this thing is making me a guest!!!!

 

Administrator please fix it.

 

I_love_krishna

 

[Guest guest]

I_love_krishna.

[I_love_krishna_]

I fixed it myself, thank you! You can delete the post "Oh no" on this thread.

[livingentity]

I usually "flinch and move" as soon as I see that arm go into action but sometimes I get caught off guard. Good advice about remembering Lord Nrsimhadev!

 

Those hip jolts always send me into a tail spin!! hmmm...is that a pun? I always start apologizing all over the place not knowing if accidently caused the collision or not.

 

Sea of devotional bodies - I am speechless! Jai!!!

Of course, in front of Lord Jagannatha at Ratha Yatra, deep in the enchantment, one cannot seem to help but become part of the sea of devotional bodies.

 

 

[livingentity]

sorry but they are trash and a waste of time. So is the music. I have only seen a couple and that is enough for me to realize why Prabhupada warned us against them. I have not desire to see anymore..Thank you very much!!

[I_love_krishna_]

They might be basic "trash" but are not about sex.

[Guest guest]

 

I have heard this before, tho only recently. Maybe things have changed since Prabhupada was here, I dont know, but if we did any of those things you mentioned, us western girls would either be kicked out of the temple or given a warning, and then kicked out if we blew it.

 

 

 

These girls as far as I knew were not gurukulis. One of them came from a family where the father ran out on the mother - a sad story. Another one came from a very strict family who was intact and active in temple affairs. I never figured out where the third one came from. All three of them stayed at the temple all 4 years that I was there. Their antics were well known to everyone but it didn't change anything.

 

I haven't even told you about the gurukuli stories. That's a whole other novel in the making. But I figure everyone has read it so I don't bother.

 

 

Well, yes, but women outside iskcon are considered (oooo that bad word folks) "karmis." Before anyone blasts me :-) I do not mean it as a put down, simply that there is a difference between the deovtee and the nondevotee. However, this applies to men too.

 

 

 

Did it ever occur to you that there are Vaishnavas outside ISKCON? It should. Because while many Hindus are karmis, if you look carefully you will find practicing, bona fide, Vaishnavas. And I'm not talking about people who just happen to ritually worship Vishnu. I'm talking about people initiated into another tradition, who still correspond with their guru, follow his instructions, read their sect's books, etc. That they worship differently is why many iskconites don't recognize them as vaishnavas. So they mistakenly call them "karmis." That is sooo wrong.

 

I'm not naive. I know that there is a lot of nonsense going on in the Hindu community. But I have definitely met pious Hindus whose standards are far better than most iskcon devotees, I'm sad to say. And what to speak of Hindus who are actually practicing Vaishnavism outside ISKCON. I met one couple of Ramanuja followers who were really enthusiastic about ISKCON back in the early 1980's and used to go to their temple all the time. They used to live in a little old place called Wheeling, West Virginia which was near the Hare Krishna Golden Temple there. You can guess what those Ramanuja followers now think of ISKCON. I have seen this story repeated over and over again with many Vaishnavas who come to U.S. and get scared away from ISKCON. It's like, iskcon is just destined to piss anyone off who has a little bit of culture in them. Not that I'm one of the cultured ones, as you can no doubt tell from my language....

 

Also don't assume that because someone is in ISKCON they are therefore not karmis. When i visited iskcon in Vrindavan, I was warned about keeping my valuables safely locked away - many times by many different brahmacharis. One brahmachari told me that Mukunda Gosvami had something valuable stolen there. Another brahmachari explained to me that there were many foreign devotees who came from very poor backgrounds, but joined iskcon because it was a step up for them, materially speaking. He warned me, even chastised me, about keeping things like my camera safely locked away lest one of these other "brahmacharis" got it.

 

 

I guess I dont understand why things like 'transcendental' are not understood. I don't see where it requires a lot of philosohical understanding to grasp. I was only 19 when I first heard this word and I went right for it. I dont consider myself a rocket scientist. ha Maybe there is something I am missing here, or maybe she just needs spiriutal enlivenment or whatever you want to call it, explained to her in better words for her persona.

 

 

 

I don't know how to explain their difficulty. Like I said, I just notice that many Hindu women don't seem accustomed to thinking of things from a philosophical standpoint. It may be that they get so disgusted with behavior of iskcon devotees that they try to shut their minds off from any philosophy which might be used to justify their moral depravity. I just don't know. Many Vaishnava women on the other hand already know instinctively what "transcendental" is - they just can't be convinced that some things in iskcon which are clearly not transcendental are in fact transcendental. They won't be fooled by Bollywood-music-listening devotees for example no matter what philosophy they speak.

 

 

You see, this is what I am trying to explain. Maybe I am not doing that so well. Anyway, I DO get it that we are all somewhat effected by our culture, and I agree some degree of exception and understanding must be included. With that done however, Prabhupada's method is above all this culture stuff, and while he includes it for those who wnat it, we can see even in India, he did not like the smarta brahmana's. Found them to be not following properly but yet 'socially' or culturally accepted as if they were so strict, when many of them were not. So if she looks behind what she thinks was so first class or proper, she will find a lot of improper nonsense going on.

 

 

 

Vedic culture is transcendental. There is no question of not following it. If one is a vaishnava then one has to follow it. We are not talking about "Indian" culture. We are talking about the culture practiced in Vedic society, and Srila Prabhupada is most certainly not above this - he lived it every day. Many things he did as recorded in Prabhupada-lilamrita remind me of the habits my own grandfather had. Brahminical virtues are universal among the orthodox in Indian society. If somebody is truly advancing in devotional service, the ability to display such good qualities should come automatically regardless of his background. I can also honestly say I have met a few Western devotees who also live that kind of brahminical culture. This is why I say it is not "indian" culture but rather "vedic" culture. No one is above it.

 

It's all nice and good to criticize Smaartha brahmins. But smaartha brahmins, for all their craziness, don't have a 55% divorce rate like iskcon householders do. ISkcon brahmins have to be better than smaartha brahmins in EVERY respect. otherwise what is the meaning of "brahmin?" It becomes just as meaningless for iskcon brahmins as caste-by-birth brahmins.

 

One time, one devotee told me that his wife had cheated on him and had sex with her lover in the temple's pujari room. This is an example of the kind of revolting things that I often hear from devotees when I go to iskcon temples. It is only because I like the philosophy that I go; otherwise I hate it when things like this rear their ugly head. Even when I tried to run away from that devotee he kept finding me, trying to sit right next to me, and speak all kind of nonsense. He had been in the movement at least 10-15 years if I remember right. I remember he even used to try to compliment the young lady devotees on the way they dressed, and he couldn't figure out why those matajis disapproved of it.

 

 

So if she looks behind what she thinks was so first class or proper, she will find a lot of improper nonsense going on.

 

 

 

Don't assume that because one is Indian and Hindu, that they are automatically favorable to anything Indian or Hindu. My wife's family is very smart, even though not so philosophically inclined, and they can spot people whose habits are corrupted quite easily, even when those people go to great lengths to hide it. I'm amazed at their ability to see through people. And i'm afraid that others like them will similarly see through some of these "senior" iskcon devotees. But of course, they will be quickly denounced as mayavadis, karmis, etc by those who just want to protect their power.

 

As far as not having a solution, I think the solution is right here - talking about these sorts of things and making everyone aware of them. Awareness can go a long way to change things. Or maybe that is the idealist in me speaking.

 

p.s. whoever that was who says that Bollywood movies are about love is just so naive. All Bollywood movies advertise is sex. All these so-called love stories are just based on the body, and hence they are nothing more than subtle forms of sex desire. Sometimes they try to inject some filmy radha-krishna bhajans to make it seem beautiful, but none of these love stories are anything compared to devotion of radha to krishna. I mean, they dress these actresses in mini-skirts and make them show off their legs and bellies. How is this love? These women look like whores. I feel so sorry for anyone who is so bewildered with maya that they mistake these bollywood stories for "love."

 

You want to know what real love is? Well, as real as it gets in the material world anyway. Real love is when children serve their parents and their parents-in-law equally. Real love is when my father-in-law, despite their relative lack of comforts, gives me the most comfortable room to sleep in during my India visits. Real love is when my wife worries over my welfare even though all I have is a cold. Real love is when my sister ties a rakhi around my wrist and ask me to be her protector. Real love is when my wife scolds me for coming home 1 hour late. And then she worries that I might be hungry because I haven't had anything to eat. Real love is loving not just my wife, but also my mother and father in law because they raised her so nicely and cared enough about who her husband might be that they guarded her very carefully from illict male association. Real love is loving your spouse for who they are, not requiring them to dress up sexy just to attract you.

All that trash in Bolly wood movies were people go against their parents' wishes and go sing and dance with rogues, dress like whores, refuse to wear bhindi or kunkum because they want to look "modern," passing stool all over their culture, etc that isn't love. It's just stool, and only people who eat stool like such things.

[Priitaa]

I thought we had come full circle, but OK, I will try to figure this out.

 

ME: "I have heard this before, tho only recently. Maybe things have changed since Prabhupada was here, I dont know, but if we did any of those things you mentioned, us western girls would either be kicked out of the temple or given a warning, and then kicked out if we blew it."

 

YOU: "These girls as far as I knew were not gurukulis. One of them came from a family where the father ran out on the mother - a sad story. Another one came from a very strict family who was intact and active in temple affairs. I never figured out where the third one came from. All three of them stayed at the temple all 4 years that I was there. Their antics were well known to everyone but it didn't change anything."

 

Ok, not kuli's but nevertheless, young and have not surrendered, or at least not yet.

 

YOU: "I haven't even told you about the gurukuli stories. "

 

You dont have to. Its part of my life.

 

YOU: "That's a whole other novel in the making. But I figure everyone has read it so I don't bother. "

 

ME: Well, yes, but women outside iskcon are considered (oooo that bad word folks) "karmis." Before anyone blasts me :-) I do not mean it as a put down, simply that there is a difference between the deovtee and the nondevotee. However, this applies to men too. "

 

YOU: Did it ever occur to you that there are Vaishnavas outside ISKCON? It should."

 

Yes it did occur to me, at least 20 years ago. :-)

 

"Because while many Hindus are karmis, if you look carefully you will find practicing, bona fide, Vaishnavas. "

 

Right.

 

"And I'm not talking about people who just happen to ritually worship Vishnu. I'm talking about people initiated into another tradition, "

 

Right again. I have never claimed Prabhupada was the only pure devotee, simply that he was the only pure deovtee that came our way.

 

"who still correspond with their guru, follow his instructions, read their sect's books, etc."

 

Yes, if he is bona fide, pure devotee guru, no problem.

 

" That they worship differently is why many iskconites don't recognize them as vaishnavas. So they mistakenly call them "karmis." That is sooo wrong. "

 

I am not an iskconiste. I do believe in ISKCON, but the orignal one in accordance to how it was when Srila Prabhupada started it.

 

"I'm not naive. I know that there is a lot of nonsense going on in the Hindu community. But I have definitely met pious Hindus whose standards are far better than most iskcon devotees, I'm sad to say. "

 

I dont doubt their are good Hindus practicing properly, but I have too often run into Hindus who think they are better devotees than those americans that are following, also because the way of worship, etc, is different.

 

"And what to speak of Hindus who are actually practicing Vaishnavism outside ISKCON. I met one couple of Ramanuja followers who were really enthusiastic about ISKCON back in the early 1980's and used to go to their temple all the time. They used to live in a little old place called Wheeling, West Virginia which was near the Hare Krishna Golden Temple there. You can guess what those Ramanuja followers now think of ISKCON. I have seen this story repeated over and over again with many Vaishnavas who come to U.S. and get scared away from ISKCON. It's like, iskcon is just destined to piss anyone off who has a little bit of culture in them. Not that I'm one of the cultured ones, as you can no doubt tell from my language...."

 

Well, now you are talking about New Vrndavana (NV), and that wasn't even an ISKCON temple, not really. For years ISKCON refused to even put the NV address in BTG, books, etc. Bhaktipada was in charge and he was/is bogus. So of course they had a bad experience! It was not really Prabhupada's temple, or teachings, anymore. I dont deny that this goes on to some degree, sometimes, in other temples, but nothing has ever been as bad as NV!

 

"Also don't assume that because someone is in ISKCON they are therefore not karmis. "

 

A karmi is merely someone who does not believe Krishna is God, so I can't agree with you here.

 

"When i visited iskcon in Vrindavan, I was warned about keeping my valuables safely locked away - many times by many different brahmacharis."

 

Well, Vrndavana India, I can't comment about.

 

" One brahmachari told me that Mukunda Gosvami had something valuable stolen there."

 

And my husband had his chaddar stolen from Gita Nagari once. He learned a lesson of giivng up material attachments. I do agree it should not go on extensively, but we should not go the other extreme. When things get taken away from us, its not as if Krishna didn't know it or had nothing to do with it.

 

"Another brahmachari explained to me that there were many foreign devotees who came from very poor backgrounds, but joined iskcon because it was a step up for them, materially speaking."

 

If it also elevates them spiriutally, I have no problem with helping someone out materially, especially if they are suffering. But if they are not sincere, thats a different topic. But as I said, I can't speak on Vrndanva India, and I do think with it being Vrndavana, things are spiriutally different, renunciation is forced upon us quickly, and if we dont surrender fast, our karma catches up with us in a breath. Prabhupada has explained, Vrndavana cannot be seen with material vision.

 

" He warned me, even chastised me, about keeping things like my camera safely locked away lest one of these other "brahmacharis" got it.

 

ME:I guess I dont understand why things like 'transcendental' are not understood. I don't see where it requires a lot of philosohical understanding to grasp. I was only 19 when I first heard this word and I went right for it. I dont consider myself a rocket scientist. ha Maybe there is something I am missing here, or maybe she just needs spiriutal enlivenment or whatever you want to call it, explained to her in better words for her persona.

 

YOU: I don't know how to explain their difficulty. Like I said, I just notice that many Hindu women don't seem accustomed to thinking of things from a philosophical standpoint. It may be that they get so disgusted with behavior of iskcon devotees..."

 

Well, I AM an (original) ISKCON devotee and have experienced it from the other side. I have had a Hindu lady grab my hand and try to force me to stop dancing even tho there was a kirtana 'everyone' was dancing to. And I all ready know the answer: that Hindu ladies dont dance and dont approve of it, but I have my authority and guru all ready with different instructions, this should have been honored. Also, I have had one hindu lady, after watching a movie about our preaching to some of lesser life styles BUT devotees elevated them, instead of seeing the good we did, she did not accpet that these persons changed and was indeed, "disgusted." So there is something to be said for both sides of this issue, and is why I point out that it is about surrendering to Prabhupada's method and giivng up our own (including Hindusim or culturism or any ism.) It is expected of us but I too often run into those who think because they are Hindus, etc., therefore they have nothing to let go of, but they too have contaminations in their life and its not uncommon for them to be mixed in with what they 'think' is Krishna consciousness. Even, it can be superstition!

 

"that they try to shut their minds off from any philosophy which might be used to justify their moral depravity. I just don't know. Many Vaishnava women on the other hand already know instinctively what "transcendental" is - they just can't be convinced that some things in iskcon which are clearly not transcendental are in fact transcendental. They won't be fooled by Bollywood-music-listening devotees for example no matter what philosophy they speak. "

 

To be honest, it sounds like or someone is focusing too much on faults. When I lived in the ashrama I learned if you see a fault, either fix it yourself or focus on your own purification.

 

(snip)

 

YOU: Vedic culture is transcendental "

 

SOME Vedic culture is transcendental, others are to gradually elevate one to get to the platform of human being and then beyond that, to transcendental.

 

"There is no question of not following it. If one is a vaishnava then one has to follow it. We are not talking about "Indian" culture. We are talking about the culture practiced in Vedic society, and Srila Prabhupada is most certainly not above this - he lived it every day. Many things he did as recorded in Prabhupada-lilamrita remind me of the habits my own grandfather had. Brahminical virtues are universal among the orthodox in Indian society. If somebody is truly advancing in devotional service, the ability to display such good qualities should come automatically regardless of his background. I can also honestly say I have met a few Western devotees who also live that kind of brahminical culture. This is why I say it is not "indian" culture but rather "vedic" culture. No one is above it. "

 

I dont see any disagreement or problem there.

 

"It's all nice and good to criticize Smaartha brahmins. But smaartha brahmins, for all their craziness, don't have a 55% divorce rate "

 

No, they stay in abusive marriages and pass it down from generation to generation that abuse must be accpeted if it manifests, instead of divorce. Not that I advocate divorce, but to compare smarta brahmana's to iskcon devotees who at least did not join the movement for materialistic reasons, well you can fill in the blank.

 

"like iskcon householders do. ISkcon brahmins have to be better than smaartha brahmins in EVERY respect. otherwise what is the meaning of "brahmin?" It becomes just as meaningless for iskcon brahmins as caste-by-birth brahmins."

 

Agreed.

 

"One time, one devotee told me that his wife had cheated on him and had sex with her lover in the temple's pujari room. This is an example of the kind of revolting things that I often hear from devotees when I go to iskcon temples. "

 

I agree. And if I were to relate to you some of the horror stories some Hindu ladies have told me, you may be surprised.

 

"It is only because I like the philosophy that I go; otherwise I hate it when things like this rear their ugly head."

 

Well, ok, but its kali yuga, what do you expect? Its going on everywhere, not just ISKCON. And its kali yuga in India too.

 

"Even when I tried to run away from that devotee he kept finding me, trying to sit right next to me, and speak all kind of nonsense."

 

LOL Really, just put up some strong boundaries and tell him to go away.

 

"He had been in the movement at least 10-15 years if I remember right. I remember he even used to try to compliment the young lady devotees on the way they dressed, and he couldn't figure out why those matajis disapproved of it. "

 

Ok, that part is weird. I would let him have it if some man said that to my kids!

 

"So if she looks behind what she thinks was so first class or proper, she will find a lot of improper nonsense going on.

 

"Don't assume that because one is Indian and Hindu, that they are automatically favorable to anything Indian or Hindu."

 

I know.

 

"My wife's family is very smart, even though not so philosophically inclined, and they can spot people whose habits are corrupted quite easily, even when those people go to great lengths to hide it. I'm amazed at their ability to see through people. And i'm afraid that others like them will similarly see through some of these "senior" iskcon devotees. But of course, they will be quickly denounced as mayavadis, karmis, etc by those who just want to protect their power. "

 

Ultimately you can't worry about iskcon OR hindu's, but your own japa.

 

"As far as not having a solution, I think the solution is right here - talking about these sorts of things and making everyone aware of them. Awareness can go a long way to change things. Or maybe that is the idealist in me speaking."

 

While you may be idealistic, a little idealism can be useful. And yes, talking about things can help. But chanting Hare Krishna gives the most help.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Shrimad Bhagvatam 11-8-7: One who has failed to control his senses immediately feels attraction upon seeing a woman’s form, which is created by the illusory energy of the Supreme Lord. Indeed, when the woman speaks with enticing words, smiles coquettishly and moves her body sensuously, his mind is immediately captured, and thus he falls blindly into the darkness of material existence, just as the moth maddened by the fire rushes blindly into its flames.