what are your realizations?

[doubter]

So you hare krsna people say that krsna was (is) a real person and that he is the absolute truth; God. What makes you so sure of this? Have any of you actually met him? Have you realized him? What is your personal experience? Or do you just say you are "Vaisnavas" out of blind faith, or some other kind of faith?

 

Im interested in hearing about your personal realizations, not just philosophy from books. If your path is genuine, shouldn't you be realizing something, experiencing something? Im genuinely interested to hear about it.

 

If you have no realization, but continue to call your self Vaishnavas, I would be interested to know why? What makes you retain your faith?

 

thanks, doubter.

[yasodanandana]

no real spiritualist will say "yes, i have realizations".. we expect from humility from a devotee...

 

one answer is that it is more logical if you do demonstrate to the vaishnavas that god is impersonal

 

there's a logic, and the logic is that one cannot give to others things that he does not have.. so how god can be impersonal (= NOT personal) and simultaneously create persons?

 

exactly like i'd say to you "Frank has ten dollars in the pocket and he gives 5 dollars to me"

 

no problem

 

but if i say "Frank has nothing , he has given to me 5 dollars" the first thing is that you ask "how is that possible?"

 

so we are persons

our existence does not depends from us

surely we are created by some one different from us

 

we have personality

the creator must have the personality that he is giving to us

 

personal contains not-personal.. not the opposite

the personal aspect of god, is the origin of the impersonal aspect of god

 

spiritual realizations come often as understanding basic and easy things with our intelligence, not as miracles and mystics vision, and if one has mystic visions he does not tell it to you or me.. because one cannot communicate them to people at an inferior levels of spiritual understanding

 

 

the only way is not to show god, but to teach to me and you how is it possible to see god... (chanting hare krishna)

 

i can call myself an aspiring vaishnava, not a vaishnava, and one of the realizations that keeps me in this idea is the strict logic that god has to be a person

 

of course mine is "an answer" not "all answer".. we can say also, as prabhupada says in the prefaction of Bhagavad Gita.."if you want to study bhagavad gita, accept , at least as an hypothesis, that krsna is the supreme personality of godhead"... exactly like if you study 2D geometry you have to accept that trough two point pass only a straight line not 2 or 593

 

so, realizations cannot be really shared if we do not share the consciousness, if you want to know my realizations, you have to walk with me at least for some time

[doubter]

yasodanandana-

"no real spiritualist will say "yes, i have realizations".. we expect from humility from a devotee..."

 

I don't see why not telling people your realizations means you are humble. I think this is a cop out answer. If you realize something why not share with others so they can be inspired by it. If people have no clue whether or not others are experiencing the results of thier practice, how can they trust you? Blind faith?

 

yasodanandana-

"one answer is that it is more logical if you do demonstrate to the vaishnavas that god is impersonal"

 

I am not interested in this debate you vaishnavas seem to hold so dear; whether or not God is personal or impersonal, and I didn't mention anything about it in my qeustion. Its all speculation in my opinion. What would help me be more convinced that your religion might actually be valid would be if you would talk to me as a person and not just quote some dry book knowledge, but share with me your personal experiences of Krsna. We can use logic to bat around philosophical ideas all day long, and in my experience, it gets me personally, no where at all. I'm interested in the experiences of human beings. If you think that it would be "un-humble" than I can not appreciate that idea. I'm not asking anyone to brag here. I am just interested to hear about people's spiritual practice and what they have experienced from it. If prabhupada describes Krsna Consciousness as a science, then why can't you who cliam to be the ones practiceing this science share with me the results of your "spiritual" experiences/experiments?

 

 

yasodanandana-

"spiritual realizations come often as understanding basic and easy things with our intelligence, not as miracles and mystics vision, and if one has mystic visions he does not tell it to you or me.. because one cannot communicate them to people at an inferior levels of spiritual understanding"

 

I don't see the value in making spiritual realization into some kind of fantastic other-worldly so-called mystical experience. If we are spiritual by nature, than realizing spiritual things is also just natural for the human being if they so choose to seek for them. It just seems natural to me that if someone realizes something that helps them, that they would be open to sharing it with others. Most adults can distiguish between people who are bragging and people who are simply describing reality according to thier experience, (at least I would like to think so).

 

I feel doubtful when people use this "humility" excuse...

 

 

yasodanandana-

"i can call myself an aspiring vaishnava, not a vaishnava, and one of the realizations that keeps me in this idea is the strict logic that god has to be a person"

 

This seems more honest. You are a vaishnava because of logic, not realization. Thank you for sharing.

 

yasodanandana-

"so, realizations cannot be really shared if we do not share the consciousness, if you want to know my realizations, you have to walk with me at least for some time"

 

I see some logic there, but if you tell me of your realizations, it might make me feel more inclinded to "walk with you", or more willing to accept that Krsna is real. Its one thing to say for example, "India is a nice country, it says so in the travel book", some might just believe because of that only, but how many more would believe if someone who has actually been to India can give you a first hand account based on experience? You can say "just chant Hare Krsna" and you will see him...but how do you know? If you were to tell me "I chanted Hare Krsna and saw him...", it certainly would at least make your case more believable, no?

[ggohil]

I have not seen Krsna materialize in front of me nor I have seen him in my dreams.

 

But, have felt his presence many times. Just like when one feels the presence of a Person with a strong personality in a room.

 

The other realization comes in experiencing and noticing the difference in not following the suggested way of life in Gita.

 

 

[yasodanandana]

"yasodanandana-

"i can call myself an aspiring vaishnava, not a vaishnava, and one of the realizations that keeps me in this idea is the strict logic that god has to be a person"

 

This seems more honest. You are a vaishnava because of logic, not realization. Thank you for sharing."

 

-i am very happy that there's a kind of sharing between us, and that's what we are looking for!!

 

two possible answers:

 

1)to have acquired a vaishnava logic is surely a realization

2)i can say to you that sometimes i have felt a little bit of a "kind of joy" in bhajans, in japa, bathing in radhakunda near the chaitanya mahaprabhu's bhajan kutir, fanning sri banke bihari in vrindaban and a tremendous sorrow watching the prabhupada's disappearance movie.... but i am a conditioned soul, how can i say if these "realizations" are real or merely a product of an illusion? so my main (not the only one) reason to practice is surely intellectual

 

"I see some logic there, but if you tell me of your realizations, it might make me feel more inclinded to "walk with you", or more willing to accept that Krsna is real."

-the problem is that REAL-izing Krsna is the higher stage..

 

you (and me) have to be convinced to practise, by some basic things.. intellectual (philosophy) and somewhat "sentimental".. like the behaviour, charachter, kindness, charisma, culture (=vaishnava association) of the practitioneers and of a spiritual master.....

 

then, practising very strictly, me and you, we will see after little or much time.. krsna .. or, sadly, if it is all a fake

 

but there's no way to understand the feeling of an expert guitarist playing guitar, if we do not study and play for years...... it's possible that when we will be at that stage we will think: "mmmmh.. playing guitar is not such a beautiful thing.."

 

[Guest guest]

dear guest,

 

when you come with this attitude,

it says you are not interested to learn but to preach.

 

<<What makes you retain your faith? >>

 

it seems that it bothers you that we retain our faith.

why not be one of us and see for your self?

 

or, why not share your realizations?

we would liseten and would not insult you,

but you may fail to convince us to give up krishna.

 

jai sri krishna! -madhav

 

[mud]

This is coming from a free agent Hare Krsna devotee. I would not say that my view represents "Hare Krsna's", ISKCON, or anybody other than myself.

 

First, you are asking for a specific realization, a darshana of Krishna. In my understanding this is a very rare accomplishment, one to strive for, but certainly very rare. I can say that I have realizations of a more general nature, from the practices of Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy. For example, I realize to some degree that I am not the body. I realize that I seek relationship, and that the relations of this world are temporary.

 

As for Krishna being God, I don't know if proof (if that's what you are looking for) can be given. That is where faith enters the picture. Philosophy and logic (as someone else spoke of) leads me to the conclusion that the absolute posesses both personal and impersonal features. The personal features (it makes sense to me) are unlimited. God has unlimited features of personality.

 

Gaudiya philosophy teaches that Krsna posesses all aspects of personality in full and that He is the most attractive. In my process of trying to know Krsna I can say that He is a lovable person. His personality as described by sastra and acaryas is very attractive and therefore I find it worth meditating on. From this meditation I feel greater appreciation for Him and love developing. That is the goal of bhakti.

 

I personally think that God manifests himself in so many ways so that all can find some attraction to him. One form or another will endear him to a person searching for him. I find other forms attractive also, the material creation for example...

 

Hope this gives a little something to consider.

[madanvrao]

Any scientific knowledge can be learnt through theory and practice. Krishna consciousness is a science, so, you will realise Krishna only through theory and practice.

 

Theory: Reading books by Prabhupada on Sri Krishna, hearing Kirtans daily.

 

Practice: Chanting the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra 16 rounds on the beads, associating and Serving the devotees.

 

Do this for one year and then come back.

 

Hare Krishna

[mud]

madanvrao,

I can think of many people who have tried this formula for 20-30 years and express doubts such as this doubter person has. I would expect that such people only feel less inclined towards such a process when the mentality directed at them is "preachy".

 

I feel doubt is healthy and helpful. Maybe this person has brought up something that can help us renew our faith, make it stronger by self-analysis. Factually, our spiritual progress is stagnant without constant analysis. The security that we get from being in a position to "preach" does not last.

 

"Do this for one year and then come back."

What have you actually done for this person but invalidated their inquiry? Explain why YOU think they should do this for one year, what have you gotten out of your practice of it that makes you give them that order? That's what was asked for, REALIZATION, not dogma.

 

[doubter]

madanvrao-

"Do this for one year and then come back."

 

mud-

"What have you actually done for this person but invalidated their inquiry? Explain why YOU think they should do this for one year, what have you gotten out of your practice of it that makes you give them that order?"

 

---I agree with this statement. I did the hare krishna (iskcon)formula, (16 rounds, 4:30 mangal arti, 4 regs, etc etc...) for almost 10 years. So thank you, I have applied your formula. What were my "realizations" from practicing this formula. Some times I experienced peace of mind while chanting japa and kirtana, sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I experience that same thing while sitting quietly also. I also learned alot of unwanted things that I had to unlearn upon "escaping" that loony asylum, which is a whole 'nother subject...

 

So you are instructing people to practice and see. The proof is in the pudding? So I did it... and still remain doubtful about the valididty of Vaishnava practice. I bet people are probobly thinking and might respond to this by saying "you say you practiced for ten years with little results; that means you didn't practice properly!". If anyone feels like saying that, please save your breath.

 

Im not saying that the Vaishnava path is invalid... its just invalid for me.

 

The reason I asked this question about people's realizations in the first place was because I have this doubt that anyone has really experienced Krsna. I think many people who practice Hare Krsna-ism have experienced a sense of peace, and felt like they were experienceing "Krsna's presence", but thats the extent of it. It just makes me doubtful doubtful doubtful...

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

There are people with varying psychological needs. Bhakthi is a path of Self-surrender. Sure Bhakthi is a simple way but surely not an easy path. To some people it comes spontaneously and naturally. To some even after practising for 30 or 40 years nothing may happen. Our shastras give various methods for realization for people at various levels. It depends on the Guru and the person himself to choose what is right for him.

 

I would finally say one thing, that all paths(whatever yoga you do or anything you can think of), has to finally reach the pinnacle which is Bhakthi.

 

Upanishads say that the SELF(God=Loed Krishna) reveals HIMSELF to a person whom HE chooses. Gita also says so.

 

Bhakthi is one pointed concentration on Lord. One can repeat japas for 10 or more years and it will not help him much so much as a person who does japa for one day with 100 % concentration and devotion to Lord.

 

So the point is curbing your senses and bringing your mind under control. Then you will see the magic and greatness of GOD.

 

The best option for doubter is to start with yoga exercises under a good guru, not the commercial ones. You may also try reading Vigyan Bhairav tantra where Lord Shiva gives about 112 methods to Devi on how to reach God or attain SELF realization. Surely one of them will work for you.

[ggohil]

Do you really believe that your faith will become stronger, if you converse with someone who says that he or she has seen Krsna and converses with him on regular basis?

[yasodanandana]

"I did the hare krishna (iskcon)formula, (16 rounds, 4:30 mangal arti, 4 regs, etc etc...) for almost 10 years. So thank you, I have applied your formula. What were my "realizations" from practicing this formula."

•••mmh, please do not take it as an offence, but i am sorry to say that the thing that you were expecting realizations at that stage shows that you have not completely understood the nature of the practice.. to "chant hare krishna" is basically: to be initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, to practice in a social situation that is fit for us (maybe not a temple), to have specific instructions by the guru on how the regulative principle's concept applies to us, to chant hare krishna without making offences. This is actually "chanting hare krishna".. with a special mention for the offences to vaishnavas, Otherwise there's not real chanting, it does not generate the taste for it, and without taste and motivation one goes away also after 40 years....... without speaking of offences.

 

"Im not saying that the Vaishnava path is invalid... its just invalid for me"

•••there's no vaishnava path in a sense, there's a SINGLE path for everyone of us, this is another demonstration of the lack of depth (not all your fault maybe)... everyone can be a vaishnava, but not everyone can go at the temple, shave the head, quit the social life and so on... so one has to understand more properly what is the "vaishnava path" under a real vaishnava who gives advices on personal basis.. what make a sannyasi advance, could be poison for a grihasta.. and so on

 

"The reason I asked this question about people's realizations in the first place was because I have this doubt that anyone has really experienced Krsna"

•••if you are not satisfied by neophytes like me (i can easily understand).. there's people who are not neophytes.. ask to them, why not?

 

"I think many people who practice Hare Krsna-ism have experienced a sense of peace, and felt like they were experienceing "Krsna's presence"

•••it is extremely right, achieving krsna's presence is not at all easy... but you are not onest if you judge a practice by neophytes

 

"It just makes me doubtful doubtful doubtful..."

•••it is a good thing, you have simply to resolve your doubts being more deep and asking to experts (who are not necessarily the people who, superficially, appear as experts) if the neophites are not satisfying

 

 

please forgive me if , not knowing properly the language, i appear too aggressive

[yasodanandana]

"Do you really believe that your faith will become stronger, if you converse with someone who says that he or she has seen Krsna and converses with him on regular basis? "

-yes.. association with real vaishnavas is the basis of the spiritual advancement...

 

change "vaishnavas" with "spiritualists" and you will have a concept valid for all religions

[mud]

mr. or mrs. doubter,

to be honest, I would be a little doubtful myself after hearing some of these responses.

 

I'm trying to do a little one on one with you here.

 

you say: Some times I experienced peace of mind while chanting japa and kirtana, sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I experience that same thing while sitting quietly also.

 

mud: What does this mean then? I'm just not sure what you are getting at. Did you ever feel anything other than "peace" while in these processes? Peace is a good thing to feel isn't it?

 

I know that it is easy for a devotee to say that your practice is faulty if you are not experiencing results. Judgement aside, this is taught as a process and does require specific things for specific results. Peace is a result of sattva guna. There are many other results. Specifically, why don't you have faith that the results spoken of by the acaryas will be achieved if properly followed?

 

you say: The reason I asked this question about people's realizations in the first place was because I have this doubt that anyone has really experienced Krsna. I think many people who practice Hare Krsna-ism have experienced a sense of peace, and felt like they were experienceing "Krsna's presence"

 

mud: Well, whether you believe Krsna is God or not, it is obvious that some people have experienced great love for Krsna. That is all the goal of this process is. I don't see great saints who have given up everything for the sake of Krsna as just experiencing peace. They are in love. Besides that, many of them are tortured by a sense of constant anxiety, no peace, because of their intense love. I guess I need to know what you mean by experiencing Krsna.

 

The Vaishnava path is only invalid for you depending upon what you want. Very few spiritual desires can be seen as being "off" the Vaishnava path.

[madanvrao]

I want to ask you just one question...

 

What are your expectations of Krishna?

[madanvrao]

Dear mud

 

Please do not take one year in the literal sense. One year is not a deadline or something. It only means that you will be happier than before as most of the devotees feel. One may feel happier within one month or may not feel happy at all. It depends solely on the devotee. Well, if you become free of anxieties, Isn't the process really worth it?

 

Just chant Hare Krishna and be Happy

 

Hare Krishna

[doubter]

mud: "What does this mean then? I'm just not sure what you are getting at. Did you ever feel anything other than "peace" while in these processes? Peace is a good thing to feel isn't it?"

 

--I think what I was trying to say is that, any spiritual process usually can afford the practicioner some peace, and usually does. What I'm really wondering about is if people have actually witnessed a successful transition through the stages of bhakti as described in madhurya kadambini for example: shraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, nishtha, etc etc. Maybe the reason I am asking is because I never really hear people in the Hare Krsna path ever talk about thier progress (or non-progress...) on the path. Does it work or not? Mostly I see Hare Krsna people talking about philosophy and theoretical ideas, and they seem to spend alot of time trying to refute other religions and paths. I guess I'm just really interested in hearing about people's personal lives. Maybe thats too presumptuous of me to expect people to discuss thier personal spiritual practice and realizations with an annomymous "doubter" via the internet...

 

mud: " Specifically, why don't you have faith that the results spoken of by the acaryas will be achieved if properly followed?"

 

--why don't I have faith in what the Gaudiya acaryas say are the results.?.Im not sure I really have absolutely no faith what so ever, but I have no faith in that process as described by iskcon. I feel like prabhupada's books spend way too much time criticizing other paths and are full of fanatical "us vs them" statements. All that fanatacism combined with the quality of disciples Prabhupada attracted to his movement (ie. immature fanatics and criminals in many cases) makes me doubtful about the process as presented by Prabhupada. Prabhupada even said that you can judge a teacher by his disciples... durring my sentence with-in the iskcon organization, I can't say I really ever met anyone who seemed to or talked about experiencing beyond the kanistha stage. This was the main idea I had behind my inquiry, and I got distracted a bit in my replys...sorry about that.

 

 

mud: Well, whether you believe Krsna is God or not, it is obvious that some people have experienced great love for Krsna. That is all the goal of this process is. I don't see great saints who have given up everything for the sake of Krsna as just experiencing peace. They are in love.

 

--ok, maybe there have been some great saints in the past, but I have not seen any with in Prabhupada's organization. This makes me doubtful as to whether Prabhupada presented it corectly. Sure he had lots of people join a world wide organization, but what is the quality of these people? I'm sure some of you will say it is good quality. I disagree.

 

mud: "I guess I need to know what you mean by experiencing Krsna."

 

--I guess what I was really wanting to know is if people are experiencing progress along the path, in general. Sure many people have experienced peace for different reasons, maybe even material reasons. But I think I'm just curious to see if any one has seen progress along the different stages, etc.

 

mud:"The Vaishnava path is only invalid for you depending upon what you want. Very few spiritual desires can be seen as being "off" the Vaishnava path."

 

--I agree that this could be very well true. And I aprreciate your non-sectarian, non-institutionalized view point.

 

I don't think it is bad to have faith, but If someone is experiencing results as described by the scientific process, this will probobly increase thier faith and give them more of an ability to describe to others these stages in a way that can also help them, because they are explaining the path according to experience. I just get tired of hearing about the dry theory, and have become curious as to whether or not any one is actually experiencing the stages of the path, or just experiencing religiosity...

[yasodanandana]

"What I'm really wondering about is if people have actually witnessed a successful transition through the stages of bhakti as described in madhurya kadambini for example: shraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, nishtha, etc etc. "

•••very rare, but it is possible to know them... i surely know.. you have only to ask and see your self

 

"Maybe the reason I am asking is because I never really hear people in the Hare Krsna path ever talk about thier progress (or non-progress...) on the path"

•••because there'was a lot of emphasis on the "exspansion" .. too much, in my opinion.. and not too much emphasis on inner spiritual growth (not prabhupada's fault),, things are slightly changing

 

"Mostly I see Hare Krsna people talking about philosophy and theoretical ideas, and they seem to spend alot of time trying to refute other religions and paths"

•••serious and sincere people is rare.. even among the practitioneer of a wonderful path

 

"I have no faith in that process as described by iskcon. "

•••maybe you are right.. many people think that now the thing is too "external", "institutional".. but many people think also that this risks not to be the real prabhupada's iskcon

 

"I feel like prabhupada's books spend way too much time criticizing other paths and are full of fanatical "us vs them" statements."

•••this is not my perception... i suggest to you to read more and more deeply, and to consider the spirit of an acharya like him when he criticizes others.. love not enviousness... the other thing is, imho, that maybe some iskcon members tend to speak of a prabhupada aggressive and giving "rascal" to everyone anytime... but if we get in more deeply it is possible to discover an extremely loving and merciful father of everyone.. please give another chance to srila prabhupada

 

"Prabhupada even said that you can judge a teacher by his disciples..."

•••if they are real disciples... not neophytes or deviants.. if i do not study no one can give the fault to the school

 

"durring my sentence with-in the iskcon organization, I can't say I really ever met anyone who seemed to or talked about experiencing beyond the kanistha stage."

•••it is very possible, but expect to find very rare realized persons even if you make a deeper research. Then... the message of prabhupada is the message of gaudya vaishnava sampradaya, so, not to say that in iskcon is not possible to find advanced devotees, but, if you want, consider also to expand your horizons knowing and speaking with devotees in other organizations.. maybe more indian based, with people more "into" this philosophy than us...... more devotees you know, more possible is to find pure ones... this is the spirit, not to criticize western vaishnavas

 

my point is, that even having doubts, you are here speaking and associating with us showing a genuine and constructive interest, so please consider my suggestions to be more deep and inquisitive

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/saraswati_fs.html

 

 

Those who repeat the teachings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat. Those who can pass an empiric examination regarding the contents of his writings are not necessarily also self-realised souls. They may not at all know the real meaning of the words they have learnt by the method of empiric study.Take for example the Name "Krsna". Every reader of Thakura Bhaktivinoda's works must be aware that the Name manifests Himself on the lips of His serving devotees although He is inaccessible to our mundane senses. It is one thing to pass the examination by reproducing this true conclusion from the writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and quite another matter to realise the Nature of the Holy Name of Krsna by the process conveyed by the words.

 

Thakura Bhaktivinoda did not want us to go to the clever mechanical reciter of the mundane sound for obtaining access to the Transcendental Name of Krsna. Such a person may be fully equipped with all the written arguments in explanation of the nature of the Divine Name. But if we listen to all these arguments from the dead source the words will only increase our delusion. The very same words coming from the lips of the devotee will have the diametrically opposite effect. Our empiric judgment can never grasp the difference between the two performances. The devotee is always right. The non-devotee in the shape of the empiric pedant is always and necessarily wrong. In the one case there is always present the Substantive Truth and nothing but the Substantive Truth. In the other case there is present the apparent or misleading hypothesis and nothing but un-truth. The wording may have the same external appearance in both cases. The identical verses of the Scriptures may be recited by the devotee and the non-devotee, may be apparently misquoted by the non-devotee but the corresponding values of the two processes remain always categorically different. The devotee is right even when he apparently misquotes, the non-devotee is wrong even when he quotes correctly the very words, chapter and verse of the Scriptures.

 

 

[mud]

doubt: Mostly I see Hare Krsna people talking about philosophy and theoretical ideas, and they seem to spend alot of time trying to refute other religions and paths.

 

I'd have to agree with you. At the same time, this is why I have faith that the acaryas who have written about the stages of progress in bhakti knew what they were talking about. Study some of those faults in Madhurya Kadambini. Spending much time trying to refute others ideas and "defend the faith" is a symptom of kanistha. Or if you study Bhaktivinoda you can see that the way he describes the komala-shraddha, the madhyama and the saragrahi vaishnava... these are amazing realizations. Still, yes, it's unfortunate that the komala-shraddha is prominant and the saragrahi is rare. Maybe that's why your faith is shaken.

 

By the way, I just wonder if your faith is shaken more by the conduct and interactions with people, or the philosophy.

 

doubt: I feel like prabhupada's books spend way too much time criticizing other paths and are full of fanatical "us vs them" statements.

 

I think as a preacher, in one on one interaction Prabhupada did this a lot. However, the books are mainly philosophy. To me, this does not matter that much. I'm free to disagree with Prabhupada, especially after 30 years of social change. I can appreciate him in a different way though. I don't know if Prabhupada himself would agree with everything he said then. I don't agree with everything I said yesterday, what to speak of 5, 10, 20 years ago. I don't think the past (although sometimes I hate the harsh history) should rule our judgements.

 

doubt: I can't say I really ever met anyone who seemed to or talked about experiencing beyond the kanistha stage.

 

I'll get back to you on some personal realization of progress... I'm not sure if I have Madhurya Kadambini or not, but I remember reading in it some faults that I could definitely identify with and that I feel I have overcome. Also, Bhaktivinoda's definitions of the stages is much more inclusive. He speaks of people like Henry David Thoreau as saragrahi vaishnavas, uttama's. Now there is a broadminded vaishnava for you.

 

doubt: I just get tired of hearing about the dry theory

 

Again, I can totally relate. Good association is hard to come by, but I don't think that the fact that many people show limited realizations (hopefully only for the time being) should make you throw out the baby with the bath water. Along these lines Bhaktivinoda states that the association between the kanishta and the madhyama is no good. The madhyama (who he says is "plagued" by religious doubt) cant relate to the kanishta and the kanishta cant understand the madhyama's lofty ideas. That may be what you have been frustrated with all these years. Something to think about.

[Guest guest]

" I don't know if Prabhupada himself would agree with everything he said then. I don't agree with everything I said yesterday, what to speak of 5, 10, 20 years ago"

 

we change our ideas mainly because our mind is not controlled and we must remedy to many errors.. a realized person gives different advices and instructions if the circumstances change... similar behaviour but completely different motivation

 

 

[Guest guest]

Doubter.....India is a "nice" country?!?!?!? <font color="blue"> </font color>

[Guest guest]

HareKrishna!

All glories to SrilaPrabhupada!I offer my humble obeisances unto Him.

 

" I don't know if Prabhupada himself would agree with everything he said then. I don't agree with everything I said yesterday, what to speak of 5, 10, 20 years ago"

 

Please dont compare SrilaPrabhupada actions and words with our own.He is a perfect soul!Are you? Whatever HE says will hold true for eternity.He did not talk about mundane knowledge.He talked about Krishna &always Krishna.He is like Arjuna,does not take NO for an answer and that is why he is sometimes harsh.So what, but the basic point is always Krishna and that we should somehow associate.So dont think you can compare your knowledge with HIS.He is a GREAT SOUL!

 

HareKrishna!

 

Ananda

[doubter]

ananda:"Please dont compare SrilaPrabhupada actions and words with our own.He is a perfect soul!Are you?"

 

--how do you know he was a perfect soul? What do you base that on? How could you know who is a "perfect soul" unless you were one yourself?

 

 

ananda:"Whatever HE says will hold true for eternity."

 

what are you talking about? what does that mean,"hold true for eternity"? You don't think teachers adjust things to time place and circumstance? Your reply seems quite dogmatic and irrational.

 

ananda:"He is like Arjuna,does not take NO for an answer and that is why he is sometimes harsh."

 

could you explain this statement please? What do you mean by "taking NO for an answer".

 

your reply seems only reactionary and not very well thought out. Do you feel threatened that people might think Prabhupada adjusted his teachings to time place and cirucumstance? I question and doubt the motives of people who come off so angry and fundimentalist sounding. Please explain.