Lord Vishnu is Supreme. Also worship Lord Brahma.

[Guest guest]

In Vedas, it is clearly specified about Superiority of Lord Vishnu. Only pious people can recognise the essence of vedas (not ignorant ones).

 

Moreover, in mandukiya upanishad is regrded as "SAthvic" Upanishad. In 'mandukiya Upanishad Lord Vishnu is mentioned as "Parabrahma".

 

Moreover, Only Bhagavath Gita contains essence of all upanishads.We shouldnt forget that upanishads are written by some sages trying to recognise parabrahma. But Bhagavath Gita is not written by any sage, but spoken by God himself.

So Bhagavath Gita should be given much importance than the Upanishads. In Bhagavath Gita "Lord Vishnu" is recognised as Supreme.

 

We Vaishnavas accepted Supremacy of Vishnu by studying vedas, upanishads & Gita at "all angles". So No one has right to blame that we have studied only half of the vedas/scriptures.

 

ALSO WE VAISHNAVAS RESPECT & WORSHIP "LORD BRAHMA ALONG WITH OTHER GODS" BUT OTHER SECTS REJECT "LORD BRAHMA" & CALL THEMSELVES AS SECULAR. ASK THE REASON THEY WILL TELL A STORY FROM A TAMASIC PURANA. OTHER SECTS DONT GIVE IMPORTANCE TO BAGAVATHAM AS THEY GIVE TO TAMASIC PURANAS.

 

We Vaishnavas Respect All Gods & Worship (including Rudra & Brahma). The Status of Rudra is clearly mentioned in Rig Veda. But Other sects for sake of their convinience reject that & cling only on "Svetavatara Upanishad".

 

I wonder other than "Svetavatara Upanishad & Kainkarnya Upannishad" any other scripture support "Shiva" ???? I am sure that no.

 

But there are more ample evidence on scriptures stating that "Lord Vishnu" as Parabrahma.

 

AGAIN I TELL THAT WE VAISHNAVAS RESPECT & WORSHIP ALL GODS. BUT COMING TO SURRENDER, WE SURRENDER ONLY TO LORD VISHNU SINCE HE IS RECOGNISED AS SUPREME IN ALL OF THE SCRIPTURES.

 

JUST BECAUSE WE ACCEPT VISHNU AS SUPREME DOESNT MEAN THAT WE ARE REJECTING OTHER GODS. REMEMBER WE GIVE RESPECT TO "LORD BRAHMA" WHEREAS OTHERS DONT GIVE.

 

MY QUESTION IS DOESNT LORD BRAHMA DESERVE RESPECT ? WHAT HARM DOES THIS LOVELY GOD DID TO US ? WE SHOULDNT FORGET THAT IT IS LORD BRAHMA HAS CREATED US . LORD BRAHMA LOVES ALL EVEN THOUGH SOME SECTS REJECT HIM.

 

I FEEL SORRY FOR LORD BRAHMA.

 

OM NAMO BRAHMA DEVAYA NAMAHA

OM NAMAH SIVAYA

/images/graemlins/smile.gif OM NAMO NARAYANAYA NAMAHA

 

Of course, Essence of Gita is to love all but not at the cost of "accepting other gods equal to vishnu". Even we vaishnavas remain as tolerant as possible to other sects.

 

Of course, there are pseudo vaishnavas fight among themselves by telling "vada killai" & "then killai". But it should not be considered seriously as its just a verbal conflict. but now even the two killais have stopped their quarrels.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

[Guest guest]

" But Bhagavath Gita is not written by any sage, but spoken by God himself."

 

That is just your opinion, Vaishnavas may believe that also, but other Hindus believe the Gita was writen by Sage Vyasa or many Sage(s) which is just another Upanishad and is not the word of God. If you believe the Gita to be spoken by the historical Krishna himself, where is your proof? Historians research found that it was written between 500-300BC, not around 3000BC.

 

The Vedas say little about Lord Vishnu, which is surprising if he is supposed to be the supreme God.

 

[Guest guest]

Nobody worships Brahma in India.

I think there is only one temple for Brahma in India.

 

It is because of a Curse of Lord Shiva.

 

There was once a Conflict among the trinity as to who is the greatest.

 

Lord Shiva said " Whomsoever sees my Adi ( foot) and mudi ( hair) and comes back is the winner."

 

Lord Vishnu took the form of a Varaha( Pig) and was digging into earth to find the foot of Siva.

 

Brahma took his Swan and flew to see his hair.

 

Siva is so big without a beginning and end, so Vishnu accepted defeat.

 

But Brahma thought he was smart enuff, so he brought a Flower ( Thazhampoo) as a witness to prove that he has indeed seen Sivaas hair.

 

But Siva found that Brahma was lying, so he cursed him that he will not be worshipped at all and The flower will not be used in poojas at all ( except on certain occasions).

 

 

I donno why you are posting childish postings like this and make a fool of yourself and vaishnavas.

[Guest guest]

Let us see when VadaKalai and Thenkalai Iyengars decide what naamam to put for the Seerangam Elephant, or when a Vadakalai Iyengar boy marry a Thenkalai Iyengar girl.

[Guest guest]

 

" But Bhagavath Gita is not written by any sage, but spoken by God himself."

 

That is just your opinion, Vaishnavas may believe that also, but other Hindus believe the Gita was writen by Sage Vyasa or many Sage(s) which is just another Upanishad and is not the word of God. If you believe the Gita to be spoken by the historical Krishna himself, where is your proof? Historians research found that it was written between 500-300BC, not around 3000BC.

 

 

 

1. What is your religion ?

2. Sage Vyasa is an Avatar of Lord Visnu ie HE is GOD supreme.

3. Bhagavad Gita was spoken by Lord Krishna(GOD).

4. What researchers say is often wrong.

5. That Bhagavad Gita was spoken by Lord Krishna is accepted by many great sages from India like Adi Shankara, Madvacharya, Ramanujacharya etc.

 

What your pathetic researchers or you believe has no value.

 

 

The Vedas say little about Lord Vishnu, which is surprising if he is supposed to be the supreme God.

 

 

It is time for ignoramus idiots like you to stop posting irritating posts like this. Read below.

 

idaM viSNurvi cakrame tredhA ni dadhe padam

samULhamasya pAMsure || RV 1.22.17 ||

 

trINi . vi cakrame viSNurgopA adAbhyaH

ato dharmANi dhArayan || RV 1.22.18 ||

 

tad viSNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH

divIva cakSurAtatam || RV 1.22.20 ||

 

tad viprAso vipanyavo jAgRvAMsaH samindhate

viSNoryat paramaM padam || RV 1.22.21 ||

 

viSNornu kaM vIryANi pra vocaM yaH pArthivAni vimamerajAMsi

yo askabhAyaduttaraM sadhasthaM vicakramANastredhorugAyaH || RV 1.154.1 ||

 

pra tad viSNu stavate vIryeNa mRgo na bhImaH kucaro giriSThAH

yasyoruSu triSu vikramaNeSvadhikSiyanti bhuvanAni vishvA || RV 1.152.2 ||

 

pra viSNave shUSametu manma girikSita urugAyAya vRSNe

ya idaM dIrghaM prayataM sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiH || RV 1.154.3 ||

 

yasya trii puurNaa madhunaa padaanyakShiiyamaaNaa svadhayaa madanti ya u tridhaatu pR^ithiviim uta dyaam eko daadhaara bhuvanaani vishvaa || RV 1.154.4 ||

 

tA vaM vAstUnyushmasi gamadhyai yatra gAvo bhUrishRN^gAayAsaH

atrAha tadurugAyasya vRSNaH paramaM padamava bhAti bhUri || RV 1.154.6 ||

 

agnirvai devAnamavamo viShNuH paramaH || aitareya brAhmaNa 1.1.1 ||

 

aniravamo devatAnAM viShNuH paramaH || taittirIya saMhitA 5.5.1 ||

 

asya devasya mILhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH

vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartirashvinAvirAvat || RV 7.40.5 ||

 

Vayu Sukta of Rig Veda which says that Lord Vayu powdered the Visha, most hard to break, churned out of the ocean and gave it to Lord Shiva and drank it along with Him

 

Devi or Ambrani Sukta of Rig Veda says that Devi makes whom she wants as Brahma, Ugra, a Rsi or a wise man.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Let us see when VadaKalai and Thenkalai Iyengars decide what naamam to put for the Seerangam Elephant, or when a Vadakalai Iyengar boy marry a Thenkalai Iyengar girl.

 

 

Please do not digress from the issue. The issue here is Supremacy of Lord Visnu as per the Vedas. Can you provide any rational argument against this ?

 

You cannot and so you start attacking the Vaishnavas taking silly incidents.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Nobody worships Brahma in India.

I think there is only one temple for Brahma in India.

 

It is because of a Curse of Lord Shiva.

 

There was once a Conflict among the trinity as to who is the greatest.

 

Lord Shiva said " Whomsoever sees my Adi ( foot) and mudi ( hair) and comes back is the winner."

 

Lord Vishnu took the form of a Varaha( Pig) and was digging into earth to find the foot of Siva.

 

Brahma took his Swan and flew to see his hair.

 

Siva is so big without a beginning and end, so Vishnu accepted defeat.

 

But Brahma thought he was smart enuff, so he brought a Flower ( Thazhampoo) as a witness to prove that he has indeed seen Sivaas hair.

 

But Siva found that Brahma was lying, so he cursed him that he will not be worshipped at all and The flower will not be used in poojas at all ( except on certain occasions).

 

 

The story is from a Tamasic Purana and so not authentic. Not to mention it conflicts with what Vedas teach ie Supremacy of Lord Visnu.

 

 

I donno why you are posting childish postings like this and make a fool of yourself and vaishnavas.

 

 

and your above story is of what intellectual value. The story is quite childish.

 

The trinity who are considered to be forms of Nirguna Brahman engage in petty power struggle. The very content is Tamasic in nature. I would not even consider this story.

[Guest guest]

OK,

 

Your guy said Vaishnavites worship Brahma. That is what I call BS.

Brahma is not worshipped at all.

And the reason is what is explained in the Purana.

If you want not to believe in anything else, its upto you.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

OK,

 

Your guy said Vaishnavites worship Brahma. That is what I call BS.

 

 

Why worshipping Lord Brahma is ... I do not even want to say that word you used here.

 

The story you provided is Tamasic in nature. At one place you say Trinity represents nirguna Brahman and here in this story you people say Trinity is engaged in petty quarrels. Such stories are of TAMASIC category and not the truth. First defend on the position that Lord Shiva is lower in position to Lord Vayu.

 

 

Brahma is not worshipped at all.

And the reason is what is explained in the Purana.

If you want not to believe in anything else, its upto you.

 

 

Your purana is tamasic and not authentic.

[Guest guest]

I see you're upset, I'm glad I you feel so even if it is just to knock your ego senseless!

 

Now I'll answer your questions

 

1. What is your religion ?

I'm a Hindu.

 

2. Sage Vyasa is an Avatar of Lord Visnu ie HE is GOD supreme.

Nope, that's only the opinion of some Vaishnavas. I'm not a Vaishnava, nor am I Shivite, nor Shakta. Sage Vyasa was a great Sage who organised the Vedas, wrote the Mahabharata and started the school of Vedanta. He was an elder in the family of the Pandavas.

 

3. Bhagavad Gita was spoken by Lord Krishna(GOD).

It may be spoken by him in the Gita itself, but is he a historical character? The Gita is thought by many to be written around 500-300BC, which is way off the date given by some Vaishnava sects who think it is 5000 years old!

 

4. What researchers say is often wrong.

And who are you to talk? Is there any evidence behind this? Where's your proof? How can I know what comes out of your mouth is true? You don't do research yourself but choose to believe whatever makes you happy, whereas I'd like to know the truth whatever it may be.

 

5. That Bhagavad Gita was spoken by Lord Krishna is accepted by many great sages from India like Adi Shankara, Madvacharya, Ramanujacharya etc.

Yes I agree, in the Gita it is Sri Krishna speaking, but another opinion is that Sri Krishna is not historical and the war may never have took place but Sri Krishna symbolises Brahman, and the Gita was written to make the philosophy of the Upanishads practical in everyday life. I'm not saying this is MY opinion, but would love to see how you guys tackle it, if only for amusement purposes.

 

"What your pathetic researchers or you believe has no value."

 

I really don't think so as it clearly upsets people like yourself, all we want to know is the truth but you have to cry and whine about it. You've even taken to insults! What a great reflection of the religion you claim to represent.

 

By the way, even if Sri Krishna wasn't historical, I do believe that many Sages have obtained darshan of many of the divine forms of God, including Sri Krishna.

[Guest guest]

HareKrishna!All glories to Srila Prabhupada!I offer my respectful obeisances unto Him!

 

"but other Hindus believe the Gita was writen by Sage Vyasa or many Sage(s) which is just another Upanishad and is not the word of God. If you believe the Gita to be spoken by the historical Krishna himself, where is your proof? Historians research found that it was written between 500-300BC, not around 3000BC."

 

A very wise answer Mr.WISE GUY. Do you have any proof that you had a grandfather in your lineage 1000 years before. Surely you should have had a grandfather 1000 years before.But have you seen Him or for that matter any material proof of his name and activites. My guess is no one will know. So does that mean he did not exist. No one has found the historical remains of Jesus Christ or any solid evidence of his days. They are still speculating and that is why there are so many wars now like between the Jews and Christians and the like. So according to you does that mean Jesus Christ was not there? Well...my point is you cannot explain everything based on historical proof and science as it is fallible. Human beings are fallible which means the science created by man is fallible. If you start to believe everything based on proof then you should question your very own existence.

 

Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and He did speak the Bhagavad Gita. There is a small thing called Faith. So we should have that to believe that.Dont be too bombastic that ego deludes your mind.It is not correct.If you want to learn then you should have an open mind and not submit irresponsible posts like this one. You talked about sage Veda Vyasa and say that He compiled the Bhagavad Gita. So then, you have proof for that???

 

So if you dont believe in Krishna Consciousness that is upto you, but seeking impossible proof to prove you wrong from Vaishnavas is stupid and ignorant. You know and I know one cannot produce that kind of proof, then why on earth do you ask for one. We are talking spiritual stuff here,obviously we dont have proof for anything we talk. Hope you change your mind and be more open to others opinion atleast for the sake of knowledge.Hare Krishna!

 

anand

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"There is a small thing called Faith"

 

no prabhu, you are answering identificating yourself as a Gaudya Vaishnava and Prabhupada follower. So, if you answer, you have to do it giving scriptural and scientific proofs like prabhupada and other acharyas could have done.......... not with some "why not?", hirony, declaring that a religion (christianism) is possible also if based on speculation, criticizing science without giving proofs and declaring at the end that all is about faith.

 

Discussing in this way could be gratifying for you because you are fighting with "karmis" but, in my opinion, you are not giving a good service because you make others believe that prabhupada followers are ehem... mmhh.. a little ignorants.

 

So, if you do not have too much informations, you can surely say that it is much better to follow a school who gives an organic and omnicomprehensive system of spiritual realization, (even if one does not have the skills and the culture to demonstrate in debates), than to be full of accuracy and dates remaining in the arid field of materialistic speculation without any real contact with transcendental people..

 

..if asked..

 

You can say also that you believe in acharyas that have changed as a miracle the life, the behaviour of so many people in the world ... and you are perfectly correct and ortodox..

 

..if asked...

 

but if you challenge people please make it if you are a little bit more competent, otherwise your words will decrease the prestige to our beloved acharyas and masters..

 

so if your last word is faith... very well, but do not engage yourself in discussions, faith is not at all a discussion subject

 

please take my suggestion without offence

 

haribol

[Guest guest]

To all you Vaishnavas, I put forward another side of the argument and you lot always get angry. This is probably because you can't handle it, so the best you can do is insult. Alot of these arguments I put forwards have been proposed by reputable HINDU leaders of recent times and I do believe they know what they are talking about.

 

And I do not dislike all Vaishnavas, but I find the Hare Krishnas a little fanatical (calling other rascals). Not only that but they argue about stuff that is not even backed up by the discoveries of science, for example in Prabhupada's gita he states that the stars are really moons and they are all shining from the reflection of the sun! How wrong can he be! If any of you don't know what they stars are then I suggest you find out rather than embarassing yourselves.

 

How do they expect me or anyone who uses their head to follow their path when they dogmatically hold onto belifs like this?

[Guest guest]

We Vaishnavas always give proof from vedas clearly showing status of Rudra & other gods.

 

We have also shown umteen times in this forum -> stanzas from vedas dentoing "Supremacy of Vishnu".

 

If you dont accept vedas & its stanzas, then you are just a atheist or a blind follower of "Tamasic purana".

 

Truth is that whenever we vaishnavas show the truth you people just divert the topic because you cant handle the truth.

 

You people always put arguements in a childish way. You dont argue in a religious way. This forums are menant to be debated in a religious way not in a childish or materialistic way.

 

If you have any proof from "Vedas" (not from other) showing "Rudra" is supreme, show it . otherwise just keep mum. Dont yell by taking stories from tamasic puranas.

 

okee.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

[Guest guest]

Whenver you people come to argue instead of showing evidences from vedas, you people just divert the topic by blaming iskcon & others.

 

This thread is started my me. i am NOT a iskcon member.

so dont talk about ISKCON.

 

if you have any proof from "Vedas" stating that "Rudra is supreme than Vishnu" show it. otherwise keep mum. Dont yell by taking Tamasic stories.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

[Guest guest]

We dont pull into our faith.

 

Dogmatic approach ???

 

Are you telling quoting from "Vedas" is a dogmotic approach ?

 

Do you know "vedas" ? If you want prove vaishnavam is wrong then prove it by taking vedas as authority rather than blaming some people.

 

if you cant prove from vedas then keep mum.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

[Guest guest]

You talk as if Vaishnavism is based on the Vedas, but it's more like the Vaishnava's Puranas and Agamas than the Vedas. In the Puranas you can see this conflict between the gods as in the Puranas associated with Vishnu, Shiva is seen as lower, but in the Puranas associated with Shiva, Vishnu is seen as lower.

 

There are Hindu movements based on the Vedas, but none of them are exclusively the type of 'Vaishnava' you propound. And they certainly are in more authority to talk than you are, an example of one of these is 'Arya Samaj' who speak of only One God in the Vedas, where Vishnu is just a name for God focusing on the quality of sustenance and preservation. You may not like it but at least that makes sense, than all these silly Vaishnava vs Shaivite arguments. And before you jump to any conclusions, NO I'm NOT an Arya Samajist.

 

I won't even bother stooping so low to your level as I don't see the point, you do a good job making yourself look silly.

[Guest guest]

Havent u read my words ?

 

if you can prove that "Rudra is supreme" by taking vedas as authority prove it. otherwise you should keep mum.

 

You arguements are very childish & silly.

 

If you cant quote anything from vedas proving "Rudra" is supreme, then u keep mum.

 

dont try to divert the topic.

[Guest guest]

Get this clear into your head...I AM NOT A SHAIVITE!

I AM NOT HERE TO PROVE SHIVA OR VISHNU IS SUPREME AS I BELIEVE THEY ARE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF GOD (which is ONE).

 

GO ask a Shaivite where to prove that Rudra is Supreme.

 

I'm a Hindu, while your a Vaishnava, I think Vishnu is no different from the other gods as they are nothing but the same, so no name is supreme as God is ONE.

 

Gokul, you are good at demonstrating your own ignorance and as you can't defend yourself you make up in your mind that I'm a Shaivite - your worse enemy. You make it up so you can have an argument where you always lose as you don't even know who you're speaking to. You've been speaking to all non-vaishnavites as if they are all Shivites. DON'T ASSUME.

 

Not all Hindus follow your sectarian nonsense!

[gokulkr]

if you are not a shaivate then why are you so tensed in seeing my messages .

 

First of all theres no such as religion as Hinduism. The word "Hindu" means people living in banks of River Indus. This term is labelled by foriegn invaders. So no such thing as Hinduism. Its just a myth.

 

Your words prove your ignorance. Dont shout too much. Your throat may burst. have a cool lemon juice & chant Gods name.

 

cool down baby. dont expose your ignorance too much

 

[atanu]

All dear believers

 

I have come to love the fight among the faithful adherents of different gods. No doubt what happens happens with His will. Salvation, for many will come through such intense devotional fight. Out of intense love for Vasudeva or Siva or Shakti or Ganapati or Skanda, some may not be able to sleep and may prepare arguments staying awake. There is intense feeling because each one loves god in his own way and god cannot but reward such devotion. I know this truth because I have seen light of the path.

 

If a Vaishnavaite feels that Vishnu is the supreme God, Vishnu indeed is. Vishnu carries such a devotee lovingly to salvation and only after attaining salvation one will know the truth. The same applies to Saivaites.

 

Devotion is required to gain attention of Vishnu. On salvation, the image that a vaishnavaite has of Maha Vishnu sitting on a throne and guiding the work of other gods will clear away to show one resplendent god which encompasses all Adityas and Rudras. My vaishnav friends will tell “Yes, the one resplendent being is Vishnu and none else”. True. But will it matter if someone else calls that being as Devi or Siva or Tao? What is there in a name, except the meaning associated with the sound?

 

The image of Maha Vishnu sitting on a throne and guiding the work of other gods, if true, makes Vishnu very weak. Despite his lordship, the Christ appears to rule the world and Uma-Mahesvar appears to rule India. Even prophet Muhammad will beat both Siva and Vishnu. Do you want to say that Vishnu is so weak that he cannot resist the domination of Christ? Whatever we see: emergence of a leader; an event; a person; a concept – vidya or avidya; a vice; a virtue, all emanate from the Supreme Being -- Maha Vishnu only. However, some people call him Prophet Muhammad. And some people call it Tao.

 

Repeated and vehement reference to Vedas will not help. Both Rudra and Vishnu appear as minor gods in Rig Veda. Indra is the chief. That is just for appearance. God himself has written Vedas, so will he write to glorify himself? Only men who have not seen god glorify themselves. God works silently without claiming any fame. Gita clarifies that only the Lord is the doer. Despite glorious tribute to several deities Rig Veda succintly claims “ekam satviprah bahudha vadanti” (The truth is One, sages call it by various names, 1.164.46).

 

In Rig Veda, Vishnu who pervades everything is just an Aditya (out of 12 Adityas)– a reference to all pervading divine light. Rudra, on the other hand is not part of anything but is a class in himself and his quality is that he is undefeatable. Rig Veda does not clarify the role of Rudra further except that is the only undefeatable God. He is also father of Maruts who assist Indra to rule. Yajur Veda however begins to clarify that Rudra wields the divine light as Vishnu shastra and similarly he also wields Vayu and also Indra etc. In Shree Rudram, Rudra is shown as Indra and Aditya. Rudra is also called as Vishnu who pervades everything. Dear friends may please confirm the last sloka in the Rudram.

 

In Upanishads the status of Brahman is given to Uma-Mahadeva who appears in the beginning and at the end. What remains after dissolution to start another cycle is param Brahman and no icon suits this knowledge better than the image of dancing Nataraja. These images are created by the Lord himself and so they last. But again, name and forms are not important but the underlying principle and meanings are. Narayana also appears as Purusha who is an integral part of Brahman. Sesha only gets to see the dissolution when Vishnu goes to yoga nidra.

 

I will not mention Tantras, but even in Bhagavatam: Shiva consumes the poison. Who but the greatest bears the heaviest load? Who but the greatest sacrifices the most?

 

To say that only the slokas dealing with Vishnu were written by svattwic people or the Lord himself while Shree Rudram or Svetaavatara Upanishad were written by tamasic mortal men will be wrong. The Gita clarifies that only the Lord is the doer.

 

What I have attempted is to bring out the meanings and not to lower any image. The Vedas state Supreme god -- param Braham to be Naryana. But Vedas also state that Rudra is param Brahman. Understand the meaning friends. Param Brahman is the underlying non-dual truth. Sages who abide in God continuously: Trailanga Nath, Ramakrishna, Maharshi Ramana state so.

 

I remember a sweet smiling Vasudeva as the supreme god – the param Brahman, the same as Shiva. The beauty of Vasudeva brings tears to my eyes, invoking the spirit of pure goodness. But for me, when I face a higher problem associated with a vice, I cannot help but remember the supreme yogi yet bhogi, immobile yet the rhythm itself, fierce yet calm, inauspicious yet supremely auspicious Shiva who invokes the meaning of an ever constant and ever present Lord, who controls everything – the vice and virtue both. Undoubtedly, for many people Vishnu evokes the same.

 

Shiva tells his lovers: Apparent decay and destruction need not be feared. The seed dies to live as a plant; the passions and sensuous thoughts of man must die to live as a conscious entity in Eternity. Once this is recognized, all destruction is seen not merely as inevitable, but as beautiful, for it reveals the sacrificial aspect of life, unconscious in the lower kingdoms, to be consciously recognized and used by the human being.

 

During the Vigil Night of Shiva, Mahashivaratri, we are brought to the moment of interval between destruction and regeneration; it symbolizes the night when we must contemplate on that which watches the growth out of the decay. We have to look behind and before (with Shiva in our heart), to see what evil needs eradicating from our heart, what growth of virtue we need to encourage. Such a dark night of the soul comes to all of us; it is a time when desolation lies before and behind us, and in the burning-ground of the heart there seems no life. No one escapes this dark night. Even the Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. To keep before us the memory of Shiva's dance will save us from despair and give us the courage to pass on.

 

Friends, when any one of you has to face such a dark night of soul when all seems lost, you feel choked and death seems the only escape, then Shiva will appear to carry you along and He will caringly impart knowledge to you. Such nights are not welcome nights, if unaided by Shiva.

 

The image of trinity is also given by the gods, to reveal to us the truth in stages. Please do not comment that the trinity is tamasic as someone has commented about Mahabharata. To claim that god only does this and not that is to limit God. Maha Vishnu will not like that since he has stated in Gita that everything is Him and He alone is the doer. Shiva tells the same thing to Devi in Devikalottara.

 

I conclude that finally everyone will know that Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva. Sincere devotion to any God will take one to the One Resplendent Being. That only is important.

My dear Vaishnav friends may now hurl many Vishnu ashtra at me (as Rudra does to destroy Tripura). However, I have requested Vasudeva to protect me and I know that he will.

 

By the way Param Brahman is not Brahma as Mr. Gokul seems to believe. But Brahma is Param Brahman. Can you understand this?

 

[Guest guest]

Excuss me, read this thread from beginning. then u will see whos irritating whom ?

 

if u wanna put ur advise put on the people who hide themselves in name such as "Guest(s)". okee.

 

Dont always blame vaishnavas alone. open your eyes widely & see whos creating the problem.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri krishna

[Guest guest]

I am a vaishnava.

I started this thread to Glorify Lord Brahma. But see people in guise of "Guests" came here to irritate/debate.

This is a fine testimonial exposing other sects showing how tolerant they are towards Vaishnavas.

 

Moreover i started a more peaceful thread -> "Lord Venkateswara - Lord of the universe". Go to that thread & see whos creating problem. This is another fine testimonial showing intolerancy of other sects.

 

Dont again paste ur default message -" Vishnu is shiva , shiva is vishnu" like that without knowing whos trouble maker.

 

You can better to go people of other sects and paste ur default message. since we dont need your advise.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri krishna

[aditya]

In 'mandukiya Upanishad Lord Vishnu is mentioned as "Parabrahma".

 

 

 

they simply refer to parabrahma...but nowhere is it mentioned tht vishnu is him

[vmsunder]

Vedas never speak about Shiva - it speaks only about - Rudra - Rudra and Shivar are not same - this is your basic ingnorance.

 

There are crores of Rudras - Ekadasa (Eleven Rudras)are prime among them.

 

Hope you have respect Hayagriva - who admits worshiping Shiva Shakthi and rendered the precious Lalitha Sahasranamam to us.

 

If you call all Saivist puranas are thamasic - then you redicule Vyasa - who u say is Vishnu himself.

 

Vyasa himself boasts "Vyasaaya vishnu roopaya, vishnu roopaya vyasave' in Vishnu sahasranamam.

 

The same vyasa later repents having called that Vishnu is ultimate - hails Shiva thru Vyasaasshtaka - his own words.

 

I am giving hereunder excerpts from my posts

 

Happened to read several article on Lord Siva and Vishnu

 

In the analysis of Shaivism is totally wrong and onesided. You cant view Lord Siva thru bhagavatham. Bhagavatham is a collection of stories. it may be noted that Bhagavatham has to be used when one chooses to go deeply into Vaishnavism.

 

The Saiva Philosophy is the choicest product of the Dravidian intellect. It is the most elaborate, influential and undoubtedly the most intrisically valuable of all religions of India. It is peculiarly the South Indian and Tamil Religion . - (Dr.G.U. Pope)

 

Please read the research of Arthur Avalon (Sir John Woodroffe) on Saktham worship - which highlights Siva-Sakthi is the ultimate supreme lords worshiped very long back.

Infact in addition to Vedas - which does not directly speak about Siva or Sakthi and speaks about Rudras only, please look into Saiva Aagamas which is largely ignored and few of them got translated to french people long back - you may find these info. in the web.

 

 

There is nowhere in ancient history about any trace of Vaishnavism, ancient most discoveries at Indus valley civilisation highlighted/unearthed Siva Worship prevelent at the time.

There is no history about "Namam" (Three vertical lines) used by Vaishnavites, it is a recent phenomenon.

There is no reference of goddess Raadha in Bhagavatham - pl enlighten me if you find it anywhere.

Also note the Guru of lord Rama is Vasista - who is a Siva devotee (vasista kumbothbava gowthamarya muneendhra devaarchitha sekaraya - siva panchatchara stothram)

Unlike Saivism, there is no worthy philosophical work in Vaishnavism except the Bhagavath gita - which is given by Vyasa only (Vyasa told Bharatham Story in which Sanjaya tells Dhrudhrashtra on what Krishna tells to Arjuna), it is ultimately the knowledge of Vyasa only - if u take it as a Story. whereas u can find Tirumandhiram in Tamil and various Sidhdhas have given various tantric and mantric and yogic and philosiphical secrets.

Even in that - Arjuna worshiped Shiva for Pasupathasthra

Lord Krishna's temple in Dwaraka - has got the Goddess (parvathi - worshiped by Krishna) temple in it.

 

In almost all avatars Lord Vishnu worshiped Shiva, infact as per puranas almost all avatars of Lord Vishnu ended by Lord Shiva only.

The Sudarsana Chakram in the hand of Vishnu is gifted by Lord Shiva after Vishnu offered one of His eyes to lord Shiva (Lord Shiva created Sudarsan Chakra by drawing its picture on water and land thru his toe to kill Jalandharasura).

 

Narasimha - by Sarabeswarar

Vamana - Sattanatha

Krisna - by Dhurvasa Rishi (devotee of lord Shiva) etc.

 

The temple purana of Tiruvarur in Tamilnadu says the Shiva linga worshiped by Vishnu is kept there

 

In Vaitheeswaran koil Lord Ram worshiped Shiva

In Kasi Viswanath was worshiped by Lord Vishnu (Vageesa Vishnu Sura Sevitha Patha Peetam - Kasi vishwanathashtakam)

 

 

Krishnua or Lord Ram are all human lives idolised subsequently because of the quality and the skills they portrayed.

Krishna's quality can be obtained by anybody who practices Ashtanga Yoga - first understand Ashtanga Yoga and then people may comment - Please refer to Patanjaly Yoga Suktham. Also the Arthur Avalons "Serpent Power" and the English translation of St.Tirumoolars "Tirumanthiram".

 

 

Also, Lookinto the Mahabharatham - given by Vyasa

 

St.Vyasasa gave birth to Dhrutharasthra and Pandu

St Vyasa was a vishnu worshiper - so tried to highlight Vishnu in all possible ways - Pl go thru the history behind "Vyasashtagam" to know how he was corrected.

 

Why dont you have a look into the Uthara Ramayana what sort of divine quality u see.

 

The Vedas talk only about Rudra - and moreover the Vedas are brough into India by the Iranian (Aryan)invaders, the Saiva Worship was prevelent even before the Vedic Period, the Vedas principally worships Agni, Vayu, Prithvi, Appu, Sun, Moon etc.

 

Seeing the supremacy of the Prevelant Shaivist philosophy in the Indian subcontinent, the invaders penetrated into the existing system while obsorbing most of the prevelent system- thats how the present day Hinduism was born. I think u dont want to go deep into the reality and accept the Historical findings. Have a look into the following research reports.

 

geocities.com/shivaperuman/origin.html

dlshq.org/download/lordsiva.htm

 

Also Veda Vyasa having uttered that Vishnu is supreme, was paralysed and prayed for Vishnu who corrected his mistakes and asked him to worship Shiva - there came Vyasaashtakam - sung by 'Veda" Vyasa himself.

 

Also, after conquering Mahabharath war - Krishna knowing the sins committed by killing thousands of lives insisted all the pandavas to worship Shiva at Ketharnath

 

Lord Rama worshiped Shiva to get rid of the sins committed by him in Ravana Samharam.

 

All Vedas worshiped Lord Shiva - Please refer to the Sthala puranam of Vedaranyam in Tamilnadu.

 

On Radha

Most of the stories attibuted to Krishna are pure imagination by staunch poetic devotees. While we need respect the bhakthi involved u cant give importance as if they were part of Srimad Bhagavatham. There is no other source except bhagavatham to know as to what

happened in Krishnavatharam. Please refer the "Krishna the man and his philosphy" by Osho.

 

The Bhagavath Gita

In a way, the Gita is collection of philosphy by Vyasa. Request you to note while it is the most published philosophical work because it was part of the Aryan invaders work, while there are other Great philosophical master pieces like -

 

Patanjali Yoga Suktham and

Saiva Aagamams - in Sanskrit,

Thirumandiram - by St Tirummolar - Tamil

Siddhar Paadalgal - Tamil

Thevaram and Thiruvasakam - Tamil

 

and many more

 

I request you have you ever had a chance of looking into the following

 

1. Research done in Indus Valley Civilisation

2. Kashmiri Saivm

3. Tantric and Mantric researc done by Sir John Woodroffe

4. Aryan Invasion in India and its impact in Indian philosophy

 

But please have a look into the life these great scholars of recent time

 

Sri Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi

Sri Bhagwan Ramalinga Adigal

Srimad Pamban Swamigal

Sri Sivanandha

 

 

I would like to clarify the following;

 

 

The Saiva Philosophy is the choicest product of the Dravidian intellect. It is the most elaborate, influential and undoubtedly the most intrisically valuable of all religions of India. It is peculiarly the South Indian and Tamil Religion . - (Dr.G.U. Pope)

 

While I am not a scholar in Saiva philosphy. But very minimum knowledge in Ancient Indian History and the Aryan theory and Saiva sidhantha knowledge itself suffice to conclude that what you have mentioned that "Shiva is next only to Krishna" is wrong.

Also, the purpose of stories are to impart a strong bhakthi in the devotees mind, one should go deep in his soul to seek the truth, after a period of time there will be no need for the form to worship, thats y u can find Siva being represented by Siva Lingam - a Roop(a)roopa form - u can attribute it either to a form or a non-form, and is denoted as "unseen and unfathomable light (Arutperunjyothi) - Please refer to Thiruvannamalai/Tiruvannamalai Temple History - Sthalapuranam.

A small quote from Thirumanthiram (translated with my little knowledge)

Seevan enna Sivan enna Verilai

Seevanar Sivanaarai Arigilar

Seevanar Sivanaarai Arindhapin

Seevanar Sivanai Vittiruppare

Translate

There is no dual thinks like - soul and Siva

The soul does not know Siva

The moment the soul knows what is Siva

Then there is no soul - only Siva exists

The word (seevan - represent Soul - u can simply see that it orinated and just an extended prounciation of Sivan)

At last

My sincere namaskars and I am amazed at the pool of knowledge you peopele show case in Vedic philosophy. And I request you to sincerely look into the untouched portion of Aagamas and Saiva and Saktha philosophy in Ancient India and the Saiva Siddhantas. I am sure that you will be benefitted a lot like Sir John Woodroffe and many others. I was bit disappointed when I read Dan Brown's "The Da Vinci Code" He stopped his research with China and did not cross over to India. Kindly dont stop your research with a portion of sanskript Vaishnavist scriptures alone if you are a seeker.

 

 

If you like to worship lord Vishnu or Krishna - well and good - but get meditate and take permision from Lord Vishnu before u utter anything low about lord Shiva.

 

 

 

Shiva is ultimate - Ekam Param

 

Vishnu in the form of Narasimha was killed by Sarabeswara - Shiva

Vishnu in Vamana Viswaroopa - was ended by Sattanatha - Shiva

Vishnu in Krishnavatar - was ended by St Dhurvasa's curse - Shiva devotee.

 

Vishnu worshiped Shiva - for Sudarshan chakra

 

Vyasa - the most biased saint - finally gave up his sins by praying to Lord Shiva - pl refer Vyasashtakam

 

Vishnu - searched Shiva's feet in vain

 

Vedas - talk about Rudra (there are eleven Rudras - Ekadasa Rudras)

Siva + sakthi - Ardhanareeswara is the ultimate mistyc solution.

CERN studies the mystry behind Lord Nataraja (Shiva) statue.

Nataraja - dance symbolises - cosmic dance representing the five actions of the universe - creation, protection, destruction, Mayaa and Salvation.

 

Vedas - pl refer to Sri Ramakrishna - Vedas talk only about thrigunas (sat, rajas, thamas - these three are like thieves, the verses in Vedas are not ultimate - it helps to reach divine life - swarga after death by following certain rituals and rules thats all)

 

Maal Ayan theda, marai theda vanavar theda nindra kaalaiyum - Abhirami Andhathi - which says Siva Sakthi's foot is searched by Brahma, Vishnu and the Vedas alike)

Pleae note - even Vedas dont know - they too search.

 

Please Hatha yoga and the John woodroffes research and Dr G U Pope's research on Saivism

 

Lalitha sahasranamam says like this:

"Karanguli Nakothpanna Narayana dhasaakrithyai namaha"

Sivasakthi - from her 10 finger nails created the ten avatars of vishnu.

 

In Yogic growth - "Manipoorantha rudhitha - Vishnu Kranthi vibhethini'

While one raises his Kundalini thru Hatha yoga - it crosses the Vaikuntam - which is Vishnu Kranthi located near our Chest. (brahma - Brahma Kranthi near stomach portion, Vishnu - Chest portion, Rudra - between Eye brows - Aknja chakram)

 

These are yogic secrets, you have to learn from a Guru the techniques and the methods.