prash_ps Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 I have always been thinking of this. Why did Ram hid and shoot the arrow at Vali. If Ram was sincere and righteous, he shd have fought war truly, not hide and shoot. ONe reason ofcourse is that Vali had a blessing of getting 50% opponent's strength when faced face to face. What did Rama actually justify to Vali ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 It was more like Vali was considered an animal, I also heard in a lecture by a devotee, that in the end, Vali was happy, to be shot by Lord Ramachandra, and see His face before he passed away. What could be a more glorious death, how much austerities must have Vali done, to recieve this favour from the Lord? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Infact it was one of the favorite topics in School debates and a story of Ridicule by Dravidian Parties. Even though there are lot of justifications, I wonder, why Rama, who performed marvellous feats had to hide behind a tree and kill an Unsuspecting "VICTIM". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 You have to consider that Vali was infact a monkey, and when killing an animal, you don't exactly tap it on the shoulder and say 'excuse would you mind if I stuck this arrow in you?', you just kill it, in them days ksatiryas did so, not as a sport but to keep peace, hiding behind a tree, so what? Lord Ramachandra is hidden to us by His Maha-Maya, so what's a tree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 ...do you call Hanumanji also a monkey? Ganesh as an elephant? Or Narasimha a lion? Lord Varaha a pig? Then do you mean to say Hindoos are animal worshippers? I dont agree with the logic behind killing the animals at all. I dont believe in hunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Lord Ramachandra is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he could take your sorry life in an instance (and mine), your trying to find fault where there is none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Dear Sir, It is god who has established Dharma on this planet. And "Even God" is bound by his Dharma. Principles like "Ahimsa","Justice","Equality"," Cause and Effect" are all the foundation stones of Karmic theory. Hinduism is not a religion but Dharma ( unfortunaltely there is no english equivalent to Dharma). Its against all Dharmas established by god himself to kill and unsuspecting victim. I think you are a bit annoyed about my responce. But we cannot do away with the fact that, Lord Rama is god. Gods can do what they please. So dont ask any questions. Thats not what hinduism is all about. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 "I think you are a bit annoyed about my responce." Yes your right, i was. Anyway, God is not bound by anything, He in the supreme enjoyer. I do not know the full story of Vali and Lord Ramachandra, full story as in the reason behind why Lord Ramachandra deicided to kill Vali while hiding behind a tree, He could very well have killed Him any other way, so it seems we need to look into it further, instead of jumping to conclutions about morality/dharma and such the like. For i.e when Putana tried to kill baby KRSNA, with her poisoned breasts, KRSNA closed His eyes, there are many explanations given as to why KRSNA closed His eyes, by many Vaishnavas. So one of the reasons Lord Ramachandra hid behind a tree, is because He was hunting an animal (who by the way was causing much destrution), Vali did not maybe derserve to be killed in a humane way, also you completly forget, who was doing the so-called killing, The Supreme Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Jai Ganesh Well said,Hinduish is not a religion but Dharma,a way of life. Although Lord Ram is not bound by any Laws,yet he followled them in full, that is why he is known as Maryada Pursotam. sometimes we may not understand his lila, everything he does is the best for all.So yes we ask questions,which is precisely Vali asked on his time of death,why prabhu? why, what was my aparadh? you pinched your brothers wife Lord Ram said.I can not remember the full story,this is from Tulsidas Ramayan.Vali becomes the hunter who shot at Krisna while resting. There can not be injusties in Kingdom of God,simply we do not understand certain things. I simply could not understand Govindrams logic,one minute calling Vali an animal next talk about his glorious death, Vali, Sugriva,Hanuman they all appeared during Rams avatar and assisted in his lila.Vali was ansa of Indra Sugriva of Surya Hanuman Of Lord Shiva.(Tulsidas Ramayan) Ordinary Monkeys they were not Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 "Vali becomes the hunter who shot at Krisna while resting." Thats the pastime I was trying to remember, thankyou. So there you are Guestji so many reasons for why Lord Ramachandra did what He did. hare KRSNA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 ,Hinduish is not a religion but Dharma,a way of life. what's the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maadhav Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 just as the sky or the sun is for all, all can benefit from it, and it is impartial to any one, similarly sanatana dharna or Hinduism is for all human beings. becaue the human beings - different people - have different mix of knowledge and ignorance and different gunas, and samskras, hinduism provides different ways to realize god or go to god or understand god, and live sin-free. one does not need to practice all the yogas simultaneously. he just needs to pick one that is best for him. then after he should practice that yoga- sadhana - seriosly. while doing so, one respects all other yogas. one who does this is a hindu. in contrast the religions of the world usually talk of no god, or one god, one way, etc. and are organized to convert the whole world - even by force - like islam is. hinduism gives full freedom to one to pratice any yoga at any time more or less. no hindu has interest to convert any one by force. so this is dharma, not a religion as is understood by the word religion- a set of belifs. actually there is no exact word in sanskrit for religion and vice versa. religon word is an approximate but deficient translation of the word dharma. hinduism is inherently secular. but this secularism is not what is understood by most. most secular countries actually encourage one to become an atheist. hinduism in contrast allows all ssects- yogas- worships - freely, as long as none tries to check disrespect the freedom of the other. hinduism does not approve the invaded ideologies that are anti-vedic in principle. it is sad that the current india gov. allows it. the hindus need to fix this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 simply you are using a word instead of another and conceptually there's nothing behind, it has only a good sound (hinduism is dharma not religion) until one asks for explanations .. and there's no explanation religion is more similar with yoga.. re-ligo means "i bound", "i reconnect" (with the absolute) dharma is the "main feature" of something.. the fire's dharma is the heat, the water's dharma is the wetness and so on and we can say that the living being's dharma is the fact that they are parts and parcels of god eternally united with him by a loving relationship the problem with hinduism is that it is very difficult to use the religion word for it, because there's disagreement on who's and what's the absolute to reconnect with, many even thinks that there's not to reconnect with anything because existence is an illusion so if hinduism is not a religion, that is a relatively generic word, surely it is not a dharma because the many conceptions that you put under this name have opposite theories on who is the constituent part of the living being or the main identificative feature of it and if it's not a dharma, it's not even a sanatana dharma.. because any dharma that you can put under hinduism name only because it is practiced beyond river (s)hindu consider himself eternal (=sanatana) and the others limited in time, not complete or false.. i have'nt any problem, only i do not like words and phrases put out as "special effects" to convince people.... in these times no one likes the word religion.. so you say: "we are not a religion, we are a dharma" hoping to hear the listeners to say "ooohhhh... so good!!".....but it is false because there's many dharmas and they are put together with nothing in common or you say "it is a way of life, not a religion"... and any religion is a way of life because any religious belief has also behaviour rules and so on.. ..and under the world hinduism there's opposite religions, opposite dharmas, and opposite lifestyles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 Hindu Dharma is So unique and colorful and multifaceted that it has to be experienced, lived and not learnt. It is like the five blind men trying to find what an elephant is. A north Indian will equally be at ease in a south indian temple. A smartha will equally be at ease in a Vaishanva temple. It is based on certain eternal priciples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 Jai Ganesh Inhabitants of Bharat (India) have been known as Hindus for god knows how long? How it came about and when, is pure speculation, but it is here with us now. Does this change anything? Does the culture, the values, the worship that exists now would change in anyway if people outside of this culture identify Hindus by any other name? Ganges is one example, mention it you immediately think of ma Ganga. Ganga, Ganges Jahnvi or any other name, take a dip in it you get the same result. Some people have a problem being identified as Hindu because they say it has so many different paths or even opposite views or it has no mention in shastra. Hinduism does not define any one path to reach the supreme, because it recognizes that just as river finds its own path to the sea so does an individual soul by it own free will choose to reach its own goal. Unlike Islam and others Hinduism is not a religion but it is a way of life based on reincarnation and karma There are four purashartha, Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha This guest who goes on about variety wants to deny variety within Hinduism. Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 "Hindu Dharma is So unique and colorful and multifaceted that it has to be experienced, lived and not learnt." is'nt it jugglery? "It is based on certain eternal priciples. " wich? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 "This guest who goes on about variety wants to deny variety within Hinduism." variety has to be there... but common principles are necessary to define a group, a denomination Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 If you are not aware of the eternal principles of Hinduism, accept your ignorance and stay shut. Thats what Even saint tiruvalluvar says. And if you can define Dharma, just do it. You are the one who is acting like a Dravidian Politician involved in verbal Jugglery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 I used to have this question and used to discuss a lot about this .But I got a good explanation afer I went to a discourse about Ramayana.It adds a totally new dimension .The point to be noted here is Rama is avatara purusha and came to the world to show us a righteous way of living ( Rama is manava ).He didnot at any place in ramayana use his maya as a lord.He lived the life like a "Principled Man" who is learnt in Shastras and who always follows Dharma . Continuing on the same thought , the science of battle says know your enemy and fight accordingly.I feel Rama simply followed the "Shastra" and "Dharma at that time" and Probably because an enemy like Vali deserved a blow from back , he followed the same. I dont think Vali was seen as a "particular animal ", But he was seen as a "particular enemy" by Rama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 Jai Ganesh Re (variety has to be there... but common principles are necessary to define a group, a denomination) Variety = Difference= Diversity Your version = choose any colour as long as it is black. no thank you Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 i, called juggler, have given explanations because for me hinduism does not exist... you and others, with your full culture of dharma principles, are able only to answer with jokes how can you belong to a religiondharma without knowing why ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 Vaaali was incarnation of Indra. Indra many times committed many sins that he invoked bad karma. in order to cleanify the bad karmas he want to born as a evil vanara & get killed by his (rama's) holy arrow. anyway, indira after incarnating as vaaali forgot his realself (indira) by maya. soo he thought of himself as a ordinary vanara and did penance to brahma to acquire huge powers. From Brahma, he got a boon that none can kill him by facing him directly.Of course, even though Rama is god, lord rama want to act as a human being since Rama was a human incarnation. so lord rama knew that if he faced vaali directly, brahma's boon will not work on Rama (as raama is parabrahma) & thus will make brahmas boon false. Lord rama didnt want to make Brahmas boon false ,so rama choose to kill him by shootin him in a back position. anyway, vaaali was evil & god rama punished him in a appropriate way. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Sivaya /images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 Good that you are maturing and answering to the point. You are a valuable resource to Hinduism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 Jai Ganesh Re (i, called juggler, have given explanations because for me hinduism does not exist...) What explanation? So what audience are you addressing to if not Hindus? I will be failing in my duty if I can not defend my ancestors, who suffered and died in the hands of the invaders. They preserved and upheld the Dharma against all the odds, but what would you care? They do not exist according to you. Re (you and others, with your full culture of dharma principles, are able only to answer with jokes) Jokes! Do not make me laugh, you have been unable to defend your position on variety therefor you are throwing it back at me as if I was joking, I have never been more serious in my life Re (how can you belong to a religiondharma without knowing why ?) Would you? Non of us do, circumstance time and desires make you belong or not. Do you think if one is born in certain circumstance, is it an accident? Hinduism does not impose any dogma; you are free as an individual soul to choose, according to your desires and propensity. Lord Krishna says in bg.18.63 Thus I have explained to you knowledge still more confidential. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do. Your implication is us Hindus are dum, and follow Dharma without knowing anything.You are wellcome to your opinion. Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 What explanation? So what audience are you addressing to if not Hindus? ••if you can't explain what's the value of a name? I will be failing in my duty if I can not defend my ancestors, who suffered and died in the hands of the invaders. ••indians.. or better rajastani, tamil, orissi, kashmiri.... They preserved and upheld the Dharma against all the odds, but what would you care? They do not exist according to you. ••no they exist... everyone defended his dharma Jokes! Do not make me laugh, you have been unable to defend your position on variety ••defending? very simple.. there's not a common dharma for all so called hindus... someone believe that brahman is the absolute and personal god is maya, someone believes the opposite, some one believes that existence at all is illusion, someone worship gods with materialistic purposes, and so on.... this is various religions, not one religion, various dharmas, not one. And everyone thinks that his one is the senatana dharma and the others follow adharmas or dharmas limited in time (=not eternal, not sanatana) Do you think if one is born in certain circumstance, is it an accident? ••abolutely not.... my karma and guna make me think one thing and your karma and guna make you think the opposite... is it important in this discussion? Hinduism does not impose any dogma; you are free as an individual soul to choose, according to your desires and propensity. ••so.. no principles.. Lord Krishna says in bg.18.63 iti te jnanam akhyatam guhyad guhyataram maya vimrsyaitad asesena yathecchasi tatha kuru Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do. ••yes.. he has shown the dharma to arjuna, now arjuna is free to follow dharma or adharma.. not that everything that we want to follow is automatically dharma. We are free, fre to behave good or bad Your implication is us Hindus are dum, and follow Dharma without knowing anything. ••no my opinion is that hinduism is an artificial brand under someone puts opposite things and that now someone is dangerously pushing for political reasons. We are in kali yuga and i am seeing something that never been in india, religious nationalism and fanaticism... i expect to see an hindu bin laden sustained by the "all paths are the same... if labelled as hinduist" because if all paths are the same, you have to consider also islam, christianism and buddhism, there's some hinduist schools that are more similar to other religions than to other hinduist religions. Vaishnavas are more close in philosophy to christians than to advaitins, and mayavadis are more similar to buddhist than to other hinduists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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