Law of the Land: Why not dharma of the Land?

[maadhav]

every land (counry) has law.

it is called the law of the land.

usually these laws are more or less conforming to the dharma of the land.

 

what we need in india is dharma of the land- sanatana dharma - also known as hinduism.

 

this means that no law there could be anti-hindu because

the land is the cradle of hinduism.

one who is born there could become a good hindu,

but will not be allowed to be an anti-hindu (muslim or xian).

 

the above rule is generally followed within premises of any temple. if you go in a temple, you cannot do any activity that is against the diety that is there, or is agains the congregation. now expand the concept to the whole land of india. india is a devabhoomi. the whole country is a vast hindu temple. yes, it is.

therefore, anti-hindu activity cannot be allowed any where there by law.

 

 

[Guest guest]

one who is born there could become a good hindu,

but will not be allowed to be an anti-hindu (muslim or xian).

 

this is horrible because religious freedom is almost all over the world and because the fact that ones not hindu does not mean that he's anti hindu

 

the other ones are simple rules and they are comprised in religious freedom principle, any anti religion activity cannot be allowed (if this activity does not harm anyone)

 

justice is to judge one by one, terrorism is to kill cathegories and groups

 

hinduism is not sanatana dharma and there's not a common dharma among hinduists.. so you haven't any base to make india a theocratic state like iran

[barney]

What was Iran during pre-Islamic period and what was India than? If Muslims could invade another country and change the whole concept why can't India which was origianally a predominant Hindu country until the Moguls invaded India. But that was history and today we cannot change that. India being a secular and the largest democratic country must accept the wishes of the majority. The only solution is to respect each others faith and live peace. I know there are fanatical Muslims as well as fanatical Hindus. These group is out to create unrest and shatter the peace of the innocent people there. The government of the day should legislate laws to curb such activities. Now India does not belong to Hindus, Muslims or Christians. India belongs to the people of India irrespective of their origin. Changing history would only bring futher disaster and economic failure. Muslims should understand that they were originally Hindus before the invasion of Muslim forces and Christians too were Hindus before the British cunningly took control of the adminisrtation of India. If these two elements did not set foot in the Indian soil today India would be predominantly a Hindu state including Pakistan.

 

This kind of feelings and agitation would escalate into war and soon you would only find dead bodies and none to praise any God be it Allah, Krishna, Jesus or Shiva. Please do not forget that we are all HIM and HIS and we do not have the authority to take away what is HIS. If we think that we are all HIM than we must devolope love and affection for all irrespective of our faith. Giving room for hatred and vengance would only open the door for the devil to do his dirty work. You cannot just kill someone and say you did it in the name of God because it was not God who instructed you but the devil. If you believe in God than you must show love an compassion otherwise it would be the devil that had instructed you to kill. Reach out to your conscience coz that is the ATMAN and is also BRAHMAN. If you can realize that you become one with God. Only love and compassion can bring peace to a nation.

[Guest guest]

India belongs to the people of India irrespective of their origin

--very good

 

This kind of feelings and agitation would escalate into war and soon you would only find dead bodies and none to praise any God be it Allah, Krishna, Jesus or Shiva. Please do not forget that we are all HIM and HIS and we do not have the authority to take away what is HIS

--again you are attempting to superimpose your kind of fanaticism to counteract others. It is not too much important that i feel myself very different by you. It is not even important if i think that you are in maya and you the same for me.. the important thing is that if we have to relationate we must do it on the dialogue 's plane. To annihilate differences give much more dangerous consequences than to have them

 

Reach out to your conscience coz that is the ATMAN and is also BRAHMAN. If you can realize that you become one with God. Only love and compassion can bring peace to a nation.

--if you explain this theory in a logical and acceptable way surely all the world will join it.. if you are proposing it as something to accept blindly you make a new problem... blind faiths generate war, one can kill also in the name of impersonal brahman, i know also fanatic advaitins, not only fanatic dvaitins or muslims, shaivites and so on

[barney]

We do not see Atman, but Atman is our Witness. We do not hear Atman, but Atman is the Hearer. We do not know Atman, but Atman is the Knower. Our goal is to contemplate, listen, and understand Atman.

 

Atman is universal, and is present in all individual beings. Both Atman and Brahman are uncreated and eternal. According to Shankara, the Self is independent of the body, and is unchanged by the existence of the body. Wrong knowledge, or false outlook, can occur by confusing the Self with the body. Shankara affirms that the Self exists, even if the body does not exist. The Self is not subject to the endless cycle of birth-death-and-rebirth.

 

According to Shankara, the mind or body is not the Self. The mind or body is only a changing appearance of the Self, which is unchanging. To believe that the mind or body is the Self is to try to superimpose the Non-Self upon the Self. This superimposition of the Non-Self (Anatman) upon the Self (Atman) is caused by lack of knowledge (avidya).

 

What then of the human self, the jIva? It is here that advaita comes up with the most radical answer, one that is unacceptable to all other schools of vedAnta. According to advaita, what is called the universe is in reality not other than brahman. Similarly, what is called the jIva is in reality, the Atman, which is also nothing other than brahman Itself. The real jIva is the Atman, which is unchanging, ever free, and identical with brahman. This is said on the basis of upanishadic passages where the Atman is explicitly equated with brahman. This equation of Atman with brahman is also explained by means of adhyAropa-apavAda. By sublating the superimposition of human shortcomings and attributes on the Atman, the pure Atman, the substratum, shines forth as brahman Itself. The mani-fold universe and the individual self, which considers itself bound, are both superimposed upon that Transcendental Reality which is brahman. Once the superimposition is understood for what it is, the individual is no more an individual, the universe is no more the universe - all is brahman.

 

This doctrine of advaita should not be misinterpreted to mean that the human self is in and of itself God, without any qualification whatsoever. SankarAcArya most emphatically asserts that such is not his intention. On the other hand, he is at great pains to point out that one who is desirous of moksha needs to overcome his human shortcomings in order to achieve full liberation. Sankara prescribes rigorous prerequisite qualities for the person who is to study vedAnta. These form the practical aspect of the effort to rise above and sublate the characteristics of the human jIva, in order to understand the Atman/brahman. The non-dual reality of the Atman is revealed to the intense seeker, as an experience that defies words. One might call it a mystic experience of brahman, in which to know brahman is to be brahman. Thus, rather than being atheistic or non- theistic, advaita vedanta is meta-theistic: it points to the basic underlying Reality of all, including what humans call God, what humans call the universe, and what humans call human. This Reality is the unchangeable brahman.

 

 

[Guest guest]

blind faith is to follow anything without given demonstration, in this way the faith is very weak and the practitioneer, if he makes a discussion with people thinking differently he gets frustrated and angry because he has not intellectual istruments to sustain his theory

 

in this way problems arise

 

so you have for the 92827th time shown what is the belief of shankara's advaita.. but not giving any logic demonstration

 

demonstration is to demonstrate why a thing is like that, not simply to repeat it constantly

 

in addition when you are engaged in any discussion you are easily defeated and you start to insult, to claim that scriptures are not to follow and to show superiority and pride

 

so demonstrate what are you saying or or you want us to follow you blindly

 

and this is the thing that generates war, not opinion's difference

[Guest guest]

Manu Smruti in chapter 1 verse 93 says:

 

"The Brahmin is the Lord of the whole creation according to the law because he was born of the highest part of the body, because he was born first and because he maintains the Veda".

 

So Brahmins should be given the Authoritative Responsibility, because in RgVeda book 10 hymn 90 verse 12 and Manu Smruti chapter 1 verse 31. It says

 

“So that the world would prosper, Brahma created Brahmana from his mouth, Kshatriya from his arm, Vaishya from his thighs and Shudra from his feet”. We are from the most high part! We Brahmins being born first and from the highest part of Brahma, should be honoured and given excellent status.

 

Further Chapter 1 verse 91 says

 

"The Lord assigned only one activity to Shudra, serving other three classes without resentment".

Becaue he is created for that.

 

Dont let the lower to approach you, they are piece of .

Manu Smruti chapter 8 verse 281 says

 

"If a Shudra tries to sit down on the same seat as of Brahmin, he should be branded on the hip or his buttocks should be cut off".

 

 

We Brahmins alone have right to teach the Vedas. Brahmins, Kshatrias and Vaishyas can study the Vedas. But the Shudras and women should be deprived of this right. They are not only forbidden to study, but they cannot even hear someone reading it.

 

Manu Smruti chapter 4 verse 99 says

 

"Brahmins should not recite Vedas in presence of Shudra".

 

and Chapter 9 verse 18 says

 

"There is no ritual with Vedic verses for women, this is firmly established point of law".

 

We know that Lord Rama who is Maryada-Purushottam, did not allow Shambuka to do tapasya and slew him because this to be a major crime.

 

Manu Smruti chapter 1 verses 99-100

"The best creation on the earth is Brahmana. He is master of all. Whatever is on the earth belongs to him because of his noble birth. When Brahmana eats (of others), he eats his own. When he wears clothes (of others), he wears of his own. Others eat and wear through the mercy of Brahmana".

 

We Brahmin have been given ownership of everything on the earth by birth. We own everything by birth not even by deeds.

 

chapter 8 verse 417 Manu Smruti says

"A Shudra is not entitled to own any property. Brahmana can without hesitation seize such property".

 

10 verse 129 Manu Smruti says

 

"A Shudra, however capable, shall not have property"

 

Brahmana is excused for any crime he commits, whereas Shudra is penalised heavily for any mistake he commits. Manu Smruti chapter 8 verse 381 says

 

"A Brahmana shall not be punished by the king whatever may be the nature of his wrong".

 

Chapter 8 verse 379 says

 

"For any wrong done by Brahmana, including murder, the punishment shall be to shave his head. For all other castes, there shall be capital punishment (death)"

 

WE ARE THE GODS TO ALL THE CREATION

 

Manu Smruti chapter 8 verses 270-272 says

 

8:270 "If a Shudra hurls cruel words at one of upper caste, his tongue should be cut out".

 

8:271 "If he mentions their name maliciously, a red hot iron nail ten-fingers long should be thrust into his mouth".

 

8:272 "If he is so proud as to instruct Brahmins about their duties, the king should have hot oil poured into his mouth and ears".

 

We need to bring this Law back.

[Guest guest]

you are not a brahmin, you are an outcaste, mlechha, yavana.. in this age of kali you can see that everyone is like that, so you cannot claim any caste superiority

 

(if you were a real brahmin (=one who has realized his spiritual nature) you were not proud)

[barney]

You must have got the wrong impression. It is for those who understands such. I am not posting this to convince you are your kind of people. So stop reading my post if it does not interest you. Why are you behaving in suc a manner? If I am wrong that is ok with me coz I know what I believe in and it does not matter if you do not understand because you do not respect any one who differs from your belief. There are several schools of thought in Hinduism and many saints have appeared among such schools so why bother you keep yours while I'm happy the way I think. I am not selling soap here to demonstrate the product. And neither am I going into discussion with what I think about God and religion.This is how I feel and if you do not wish to read it well, I have not lost anything but my conclusion is you are ingnorant of the Ultimate Reality. Defeating me is not a great achievement in your life coz I am below par with any of you. And neither am I insulting any one of you for my defeat. This is not a competition where the winner is crowned. It is a matter of opinion and there are opposing views and we have to study where lies the truth. eligion is not a subject confined to only one factor. It is as vast as the ocean and what we perceive is only a drop of it. I hope you get my meaning or do I need to demonstrate this too.

[barney]

Finally your true color is coming out. You are not what you are but an evil asura in human clothing. Manu smirti has been misinterpreted by selfish bramins who think they are the chosen one like the Jews. Sorry, your cooking will not sell here. The human race was divided according to class of work not by any cast. A sudra is not a low down human being as you and your kind think. They too provide what we all enjoy today. They slog in the fields in so that you would not eat ####. You should be greatfull that they are there to provide your need which you or your kind do not know how to acquire. Gone are the days where you can bully them. Today there are doctors and engineers among them and they treat you when you fall sick. But they do not take vengance against your kind coz if they want thye could inject you with synide but they are not as mean as you.

 

Even the great masters do not accept what is said in the manu smirti and neither do millions of others. Any one who can master the scripture [even a sudra in your language]and follow the dharma sastras is a brahmin. If you are in my country we will call you otak udang. You are a person who is not fit to live among us. But it is your karma that you should be here and hope you remove that ugly thoughts and have a discussion with your ATMA.

[Guest guest]

So stop reading my post if it does not interest you

...i am interested and because a forum is a place of discussion it is natural that i discuss if it seems to me not right what it is written

 

If I am wrong that is ok with me coz I know what I believe in and it does not matter if you do not understand because you do not respect any one who differs from your belief.

..things are not going in this way, you have written some messages, i have made objections, you accepted discussion... there's not lack of respect, the fact that i discuss bringing logic is a demonstration of respect. A fanatic stays silent and drops bombs

 

I am not selling soap here to demonstrate the product.

..it seems to me, because you are in a forum but you do not want to discuss

 

And neither am I going into discussion with what I think about God and religion

..so why post in a forum?

 

I have not lost anything but my conclusion is you are ingnorant of the Ultimate Reality

..it is a weak conclusion because the ignorant can explain his ideas and the scholar like you cannot do it... and after some time starts to insult

 

It is a matter of opinion and there are opposing views and we have to study where lies the truth.

..and debates are a normal way to check if our study and school is effective

 

I hope you get my meaning or do I need to demonstrate this too.

..i have got the meaning that you are in a place of exchanging ideas but you do not want to exchange but impose yours

 

Even the great masters do not accept what is said in the manu smirti

..the fault is not in manu smriti, the fault is that vedic laws are to be applied in a specific time..... the fact is that we are all sudras and mlecchas and yavanas, so there's no caste distinctions and manu smriti's laws on brahmanas superiority are simply not good for this age... because there's no real brahmanas (and uor friend is not a real brahmana, otherwise he'd be humble)

 

 

 

(if you do not like when people give opinion on your messages, why have you did it with the one of our "brahmin" friend???)

[maadhav]

<< this is horrible because religious freedom is almost all over the world >>

 

could not agree, because:

 

1) hardly any muslim country allows any other religion than islam on their land. whenislam invades other lands, it destroys local religious infrastructure and religious leaders and followers. else it makes them pay jiyaz - tax- becausse they are non muslims. have you lived in saudi arabia? what youknow aobut the law there? did you make any complaint to them or otheres about it? did they ever listen?

saudis say to india that they will not allow a non muslim ambassador, and the foolish gov. agreed. why they not say to US teh same?

 

2) the world does not care for us, just as you do not care for anything but your own moksha or self realization. india is a sovereign country, not a slave. that means we have all the freedom and right to do whatever we want to be happy. we do not owe to the world anything in the matter.

it is strictly our own internal business.

 

 

<< and because the fact that ones not hindu does not mean that he's anti hindu >>

 

yes, as long as he is not a muslim or a xian in india.

these two religions cannot stand the existance of any other religion as per their BOOKS. so, to allow an ideology that is up to wipe out sanatana dharma (SD) is very foolish.

is it hard for you to agree on this point? it does not need more than common sense to understand it. it needs some love for dharma to understand it.

 

<< the other ones are simple rules and they are comprised in religious freedom principle, >>

 

and we give maximum freedom. parsis, jains, sikhs, and buddhists live happily with the hindus. we have no problem with them. any religion that (by its Book) can tolerate SD, is (will be) happily allowed on the vedic land.

 

if the muslim countries can have only one religion as the legal religion, then what is so bad in making islam only (and xianity) illegal in india? there is a good reason to do it as i gave above.

 

<< any anti religion activity cannot be allowed (if this activity does not harm anyone) >>

 

this is an oxymoron. anti means one that harms.

what you want to say, perhaps, is that any activity that is anti-hindu (not other than hindu) cannot be allowed. then i agree.

 

<< justice is to judge one by one, terrorism is to kill cathegories and groups >>

 

justice is served when we adopt right constitution and make right government accoding to sanatana dharma. to think that terroris is a small criminal activity not not a holy war -jeehad - asymettri warfare is a big mistake. it requires a bit of kshatriya mind to understand this.

 

<< hinduism is not sanatana dharma >>

 

yes, you can think so. but hindu have right to identify (give name to) sanaana dharma as hinduism and live by the dharma.

 

<< and there's not a common dharma among hinduists..>>

 

you will not understand the hindu commanalities.

i have listed them once.

we have many things common, common enemy being one.

 

there is no 'hinduist' word in dictionary.

you or some one has made the word and have given some meaning which i do not know. usually the anti hindus use such a word to show hate, i think.

 

<< so you haven't any base to make india a theocratic state like iran >>

 

i do, many do, many hindus will realize it,

and you will see it.

 

theocratic hindu (varnasrami) state is quite different than theocretic other religion state. this is because hinduism is inherently tolerant to a variety of faiths. it just cannot (and never should) tolerate one that is enemy to hinduism by one's BOOK. in the past the hindus did make a mistake of tolerating it, and we learned that that was the greatest foolish thing we did.

not any more now. hindus are waking up.

 

again, pick a user name.

or better, get the points.

 

 

[Guest guest]

could not agree, because:

hardly any muslim country allows any other religion than islam on their land. ...

-- you have to behave as a civil human even if someone is not civilized.. or do not speak of dharma

 

2) the world does not care for us, just as you do not care for anything but your own moksha or self realization

--this is a terrorist way to deal with opponents... insult

 

so, to allow an ideology that is up to wipe out sanatana dharma (SD) is very foolish.

--no one has to wipe out sanatana dharma... neither you in the name of hinduism.. proection of dharma is based on persons, if one's a criminal he has to put in jail, if he's buddhist, christian, advaitin, jainist or so it is not important at all

 

it does not need more than common sense to understand it. it needs some love for dharma to understand it.

--no it needs to have the adharmic idea that people has to judged as groups and not personally... it is asuric

 

if the muslim countries can have only one religion as the legal religion, then what is so bad in making islam only (and xianity) illegal in india?

--for christianity you are wrong because hinduism is in every christian country.. for the rest, you have to behave as civilized otherwise why you are better of the people you fight?

 

is that any activity that is anti-hindu (not other than hindu) cannot be allowed. then i agree.

--no.. anti religious in general or anti freedom in general

 

to think that terroris is a small criminal activity not not a holy war -jeehad - asymettri warfare is a big mistake.

--this has nothing to do with the fact that you have to put in kail the terrorist, not his neigborhood if he's not involved in terrorism

 

it requires a bit of kshatriya mind to understand this.

--your understanding is asuric... a ksatrya fight for justice, he punish only who has faults, not his son, uncle, neighborhood, priest, friend and so on.. ksatrya is a saint not a demon

 

but hindu have right to identify (give name to) sanaana dharma as hinduism and live by the dharma.

--you are free to call yourself michael jackson, but what's the use if you're not him?

 

usually the anti hindus use such a word to show hate, i think.

--you are simply playing a game finding enemies everywhere (typical terrorist behaviour) hinduist is for hindu..

 

again, pick a user name.

or better, get the points.

--i have got, but you cannot give a decent answer or demonstration, my hope is only that you dismiss this pose as a religious.... have your terroristic ideas but do not identify yourself with dharma or sanatana dharma. (thing that you cannot do because you are preaching opposite principles)

[subroto]

I agree with madahv on certain issues, and with barney on other ones but look at it this way before we begin to talk about anti-hindu elemnets like X-tians and Muslims we must teach real hinduism to hindus first. Most hindus have forgotten about hinduism themselves and have never read the vedas. Thats a more important problem to tackle than the anti-hindu elements, although I do agree that Muslims and X-tians are more anti-hindu than parsis,sikhs, budhist or jains. You never see them trying to convert hindus or kill hindus. But on the other hand banning Xtianity will not help, because like someone pointed out before hinduism is permitted in many x-tian countries although hindus in those countries don't try aggressively to convert xtains to hindus.

Caste system has always been an embarrasment for hindus..forget abot manu smriti we should follow what krishna had to say about the caste system to arjun on the battle field. I am sure krishna is the higher authority on this than manu smriti.

[Guest guest]

re

[maadhav]

thanks! you have understood me.

 

no aggresor/invaders should be allowed to reap/enjoy/keep any benefit from the aggreson.

 

the followers of aggresive islam - invaders - and their generation is ripping the benefits of their invaions. we lost land, temples, lives, dignity of may women, vedic libraried, etc.

 

even when they are minority, their aggresive mentality does not go away. their insist that a majsid will/must stay on top of a hindu temple. this has to change.