Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva

[Guest guest]

Swami Narayan's Shikshapatri 47:

 

No distinction shall be made between Narayan and Shiva, as they are both proclaimed as Brahmanswarupa by the Vedas

 

Shatanand Muni's Bhashya to 47:

 

Those who think of God differently to this, where Narayan or Shiva are defamed in some way are insulting God. Shatanand says that such people should have their eyes removed. Such a person is blind to the truth and can never be enlightened to that truth.

 

Many Shastras speak of the oneness of Narayan and Shiva. Our ancient Shastras in some instances speak of Narayan as supreme and in other instances speak of Shiva as supreme. Both views should be accepted as correct, hence they should be accepted as the one and the same. The following Veda scriptures are Shaiva in context as they speak of Shiva as Brahman: Atharvashikha, Atharvashisha, Shetasvataria, Mantropanishad, Kaivalyopanishad. The following speak of Vishnu as the supreme Brahman: Mahanarayanopanishad, Narayaropanishad, Mahopanishad, Shubhalopanishad. Thus the four Vedas sing only the oneness of Shiva and Narayan.

 

Shrimad Bhagwat’s Fourth Chapter explains, ‘Those who find indifference in Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and recognise the oneness in them obtain eternal peace.’ The Eighth Chapter adds, ‘Shiva Brahma and Vishnu are thy manifested forms, which create, maintain and destroy the universe at thy will. Thou is Ishwara who delivers Moksha (Salvation). Thou is Parabrahman (the Supreme Lord).’

 

Narad Pancharatra succinctly states:

 

Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha |

 

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

 

‘Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’

 

Bhattacharya has said, ‘I have looked in the Puranas, Upapuranas, Vedas, Smrutis and all other such Shastras, but have not come across anything to suggest a difference in Shiva and Vishnu.’ God himself has said, ‘Those who find difference in the two of us fall to the Hells.’ Shree Dhar Swami prays, ‘I humbly bow before Vishnu and Shankar who are one, who revere one another and who provide for all.’ Vallabhacharaya, a famed Vaishnava, in similar fashion says, ‘Glory to thee, who is honoured as Brahman in the Vedanta - Lord of the three worlds - Mahadev.’

 

Lord Swaminarayan has gone out of his way to glorify both Vaishnav and Shaiva Sampradais in order to get back to the true Vedic teachings. We must conform to this dream of Lord Swaminarayan’s by never uttering a word contrary to the Lord’s standpoint. We must always, with love, observe the Vratas of Lord Shiva and bow respectfully to the icons of Shiva. It does not in anyway fault our devotion to Lord Vishnu by doing so - indeed it strengthens devotion for Vishnu. Narayan and Shiva are one and the same. They are, if you like, two sides of the same coin. That coin being the Supreme Godhead

 

source:

http://swaminarayansatsang.com/scriptures/scriptureexplanation.asp?ScriptureDetailsID=48&ScriptureID=1

 

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Vallabh's Balbodh:

 

Vishnu is the sustainer of creation while Shiva is the destroyer. Both have been revealed as such in their own scriptures. Know without a doubt that the Supreme Brahman is both Vishnu and Shiva for they have both been declared as the Self of all things. They have also been described in their own scriptures as being flawless and replete with all divine virtues. (12-13a)

 

source:

http://www.pushtimarg.net/Download/Book/English/Balbodh.pdf

[Guest guest]

Actually Shiva means "Auspicious". Sada-shiva menans "ever-auspicious". both these terms belong to Sankarsana ie., Narashima.

 

if you have doubt regarding this then read 1008 names of Lord Narashima, there you will see Narashima is chanted as shiva, sada-shiva, etc...

 

Actually Narashima is the Sankarsana. Sankarsana is the destroyer. Rudra is devotee of Narashima. Rudra carries out his activities thru divine energy of "Sankarsana (Narashima) only.

 

Vishnu & Narashima are forms of Same Supreme God - Narayana (krishna).

 

So we should not see any difference between Vishnu & shiva as both are forms of Narayana(krishna).

 

It is the truth supported by Vedas & Smritis.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Shivaya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya

[Sathya]

Isn't Krishna an avtaar of Visnu who is narayan.

 

The ten avtaars of vishnu,

Matysa,

Kurma,

Vaahar,

Narasihma,

Vaaman,

Parashurama,

Rama,

Krishna,

Buddha,

Kalki.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Krishna means "all attractive". Supreme God Narayana is attributed as "all attractive". so Narayana is also called as Krishna.

 

When Narayana incarnated in Dwarapala yuga, his appearance was most soothing that he was named "krishna" (all attractive).

 

We should consider that only "krishna" avatar is regarded as "pari poorna avatar" (fully complete avatar). so krishna avatar is actually Krishna(narayana) himself.

 

If you are still confused read works of Shri Vallabhacharya in www.pushtibhakti.org so that it will clear & enlighten you.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Shivaya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya

[Guest guest]

 

Actually Shiva means "Auspicious". Sada-shiva menans "ever-auspicious". both these terms belong to Sankarsana ie., Narashima.

 

if you have doubt regarding this then read 1008 names of Lord Narashima, there you will see Narashima is chanted as shiva, sada-shiva, etc...

 

Actually Narashima is the Sankarsana. Sankarsana is the destroyer. Rudra is devotee of Narashima. Rudra carries out his activities thru divine energy of "Sankarsana (Narashima) only.

 

Vishnu & Narashima are forms of Same Supreme God - Narayana (krishna).

 

So we should not see any difference between Vishnu & shiva as both are forms of Narayana(krishna).

 

It is the truth supported by Vedas & Smritis.

 

 

 

Swami Narayan and Vallabh know perfectly the conclusion of sastra on Shiva and have presented it in their writings.

[Guest guest]

Wahtever i had quoted is on basis of "Shri Shri Jagadguru Vallabhacharya" teachings only.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The Suddhadvaita Philosophy Of Sri Vallabha

Introduction

The philosophy of Sri Vallabhacharya is Suddha-Advaita or pure monism, because he does not admit Maya like Sankara, and believes that the whole world of matter and souls is real and is only a subtle form of God. Those who bring Maya for the explanation of the world are not pure Advaitins, because they admit a second to Brahman. Vallabha holds that Brahman can create the world without any connection with such a principle as Maya, but Sankara traces the universe to Brahman through the power of Maya. Hence the philosophy of Vallabha is called pure monism or Suddhadvaita. Vallabha expounded that system in the Anu-Bhashya, his commentary on the Brahma Sutras. He called it Suddha-Advaita or pure monism as against Sankara’s Kevala Advaita and Ramanuja’s Visishta-Advaita. Vallabha was a Telugu Brahmin of South India. He migrated to the north and developed the views of Vishnuswamin who belonged to the thirteenth century. His system of thought is known by the name Brahma-Vada.

Vallabha says that the entire universe is real and is subtly Brahman. The individual souls and the world are, in essence, one with Brahman. Jiva, Kala (time) and Prakriti or Maya are eternal existences, but they have no separate existence apart from Brahman.

Vallabha was a great Sanskrit scholar. He settled down first at Mathura and then at Varanasi. He preached with great zeal the Vaishnava cult and philosophy. He was the founder of the great Vaishnava Mutts of Rajasthan and Gujarat. His followers are found in great numbers in Nathdwara.

Important Works of Vallabha

Vallabha accepts the authority not only of the Upanishads, the Bhagavad-Gita and the Brahma Sutras, but also of the Bhagavata Purana. The important works of Vallabha are Vyasa-Sutra Bhashya (Anu-Bhashya), Jaimini Sutra Bhashya, Bhagavata-Tika Subodhini, Pushti-Pravaha-Maryada and Siddhanta-Rahasya. All these books are in Sanskrit. He has written many books in Braj Bhasha also. The scriptures are the final authority for Vallabha.

Stress on Worship and Grace

Vallabha’s religion is a religion addressed to the worship of Vishnu in the form of Krishna. It was derived chiefly, like the system of Chaitanya, from the Vaishnava philosophy propounded by Ramanuja. It is centred round the conception of a personal and beneficent God who is Sat-Chit-Ananda. Lord Krishna is the highest Brahman. His body consists of Sat-Chit-Ananda. He is called Purushottama.

Vallabha’s followers worship Bala-Krishna (Krishna as a lad). They have Vatsalya-Bhava (the attitude which regards God as a child). Vallabha lays great stress on Pushti (grace) and Bhakti (devotion). Maha-Pushti is the highest grace or Anugraha which helps the aspirants to attain God-realisation.

God-The Only Being

According to Vallabha, God is the Absolute or the Purushottama. He is perfect. He is Sat-Chit-Ananda. He is infinite, eternal, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. He has all the auspicious qualities also. The Sruti texts which say that He has no attributes, mean only that He has not the ordinary qualities.

God is real. There is no other reality besides Him. He is the only Being. He is the source for this universe and all souls. He is the first cause and the only cause. God is the material as well as the efficient cause of the universe. He creates the world by the mere force of His Will. Brahman manifests Himself, of His own Will, as the universe and the individual souls, but He does not undergo any change in His essential nature. Things come out of the Akshara (Sat-Chit-Ananda), like sparks from fire. Brahman is the Creator of the world. He is also the world itself.

God is personified as Krishna, when He possesses the qualities of wisdom and action. He appears in various forms to please His devotees.

The World Of Nature And The World Of False Relations

Creation is manifestation of Brahman. The universe is the effect of Brahman. The universe is as eternal and real as Brahman Himself. The inanimate universe is filled with Brahman. The world is not an illusory appearance. It is not different from Brahman in essence.

Jagat is the world of Nature. It is not illusory. It is real. It is God Himself in one form. But, the Samsara or temporal involvement is illusory. This is created by the soul around its ‘I-ness’ and ‘mine-ness’. The separation from God on account of egoism makes the soul forget its original, true, divine nature. Samsara is a product of the soul’s imagination and action which play round its ‘I-ness’ and ‘mine-ness’. On account of its selfishness, it puts itself in wrong relations with other souls and with the objective universe. It creates a web of its own and gets itself entangled in it. This is an illusion, because the web has no reality. This Samsara, the world of false relations created by the soul, is alone Maya. Samsara or Maya rises because the soul, which is not apart from God, tries to set itself up as an independent reality or entity in its own right. The self which is something apart from God is illusory. Its body is illusory and its world also is illusory. All this is Samsara. It is very different from the world of Nature.

Jiva And Brahman

Analogy of the Spark and the Fire

The Jivas are not effects. They are Amsas or parts of God. They issue from Him spontaneously as sparks from fire. Brahman is the whole. The Jiva or the individual soul is part; but, there is no real difference between Brahman and the individual soul, because the individual soul is of identical essence with Brahman.(According to Ramanuja, the parts are really different from the whole.) The soul is one with Brahman. It is as real and eternal as Brahman.

The individual soul is not Brahman screened by the veil of Avidya. It is itself Brahman, with the attribute ‘bliss’ being obscured or suppressed. Ananda or bliss is suppressed or obscured in the individual soul. Ananda and consciousness are suppressed or obscured in matter or the inanimate world. When the soul attains bliss, and the inanimate world attains both consciousness and bliss, the difference between Brahman and these vanishes.

The soul is both a doer and an enjoyer. It is atomic in size, but it pervades the whole body by its quality of intelligence, just as sandalwood pervades even the places where it does not exist by its sweet fragrance and just as a lamp, though confined only to a part of a room, illuminates the whole room.

Classification Of Souls

There are three kinds of souls: (i) The pure (Suddha) Jivas. The divine qualities (Aisvarya) are not obscured in these souls by ignorance. (ii) The worldly Jivas (Samsarin). These souls are caught in the net or clutches of Avidya or ignorance. They experience births and deaths on account of their connection with gross and subtle bodies. (iii) Mukta Jivas or liberated souls. These souls are freed from the bonds of Samsara through Vidya or Knowledge. When the soul attains the final emancipation, it recovers its suppressed qualities and becomes one with God or Brahman. The world appears as Brahman to one who has realised the Truth or Brahman.

There is another classification of souls, viz., Pushti souls, Maryada souls and Pravahika souls. All these are different from one another in their origin, nature and final end. They all issue from God with their differences.

The Pushti souls are the highest, as they issue from the Ananda-Kaya or the bliss-body of God. These souls are the Amsa (parts) of His body. God is the Amsi (the whole). These are the souls of grace. They have the divine seed in them which bears fruit in the end. They ultimately reach the goal through the grace of the Lord. They have communion and fellowship with Lord Krishna. They develop Bhakti through the grace of the Lord. Bhakti is the means and the end in itself.

The Maryada souls are generated from the Vak or the Word of God. They are governed by law, not by grace. They perform their ritualistic duties, at first with selfish interests. Later on, they develop Nishkama-Bhava (unselfish attitude) and do their ritualistic routine without any self-interest. This purifies their mind. They reach the Akshara, which is a kind of vestibule to the abode of God. Afterwards they attain the supreme abode of God.

The Pravahika souls issue from the mind of God. They are the Samsaric Jivas. They are souls neither of grace nor of law. They are in continuous motion (Pravaha).

These three kinds of souls have further sub-divisions and cross-divisions into Pushti-Pushti, Pushti-Maryada, Pushti-Pravahika, Maryada-Maryada, Maryada-Pushti, Maryada-Pravahika, Pravahika-Pravahika, Pravahika-Pushti and Pravahika-Maryada.

Pushti Marga Or The Way Of Grace

The way of life and salvation, preached by Vallabha is called Pushti Marga. The soul of man has become weak and lean on account of sin. It is, therefore, in dire need of the grace of God for its upliftment and emancipation. God’s grace gives Pushti (nourishment) and Poshana (strength); and hence the name Pushti Marga or the Way of Grace.

The individual soul can attain the final emancipation only through the grace of God. Bhakti is the chief means of salvation. Jnana is useful. Maha Pushti or the highest grace removes great obstacles and helps in the attainment of God. The Bhakti generated by special grace is known as Pushti Bhakti.

The Four Kinds of Bhakti

This Pushti-Bhakti is of four kinds: (i) Pravaha Pushti-Bhakti, (ii) Maryada Pushti-Bhakti, (iii) Pushti Pushti-Bhakti and (iv) Suddha Pushti-Bhakti. Pravaha Bhakti is the path of those who while leading the worldly life, perform works which will lead to the attainment of God-realisation. Worldly life is compared to the flow of a river (Pravaha). Maryada Bhakti is the path of those who are rendered fit to attain knowledge which is useful for worship, through the grace of the Lord. They know all about the ways of God. They depend upon their own efforts to obtain knowledge. In Pushti Bhakti, the devotees lead a life of self-restraint. They hear discourses about the Lord. They do Kirtana and sing His Name. They do Japa of Mantra.

Suddha Pushti-Bhakti or the Purest Type of Devotion

In Suddha Pushti-Bhakti, the devotees do Kirtana and sing the Lord’s Name. They praise God. They develop a strong passion for doing these. This kind of devotion is generated by the Lord Himself. The Lord’s grace descends on the devotees. Then they develop a liking for God. This liking grows into Prema Bhakti (taste for God). The devotees acquire knowledge about God. Then they get attachment to God (Asakti). Then they develop a strong passion for attaining God. This is the ripe condition of love and Asakti. It is called Vyasana. This strong passion, or Vyasana, leads to the attainment of the highest bliss, the summum bonum or the end.

When love for Sri Krishna becomes intense, the devotee sees Lord Krishna everywhere. Hence everything becomes an object of love for him. He identifies himself with everything. The Gopis had this experience. They saw Krishna everywhere. They saw themselves also as Krishna. This is Para Bhakti or supreme devotion which becomes akin to the knowledge or Brahman-Jnana of the Vedantins or Jnanins. The inner and outer world is full of Krishna or Purushottama for such devotees. The fruit of this devotion is admission to the eternal sports or Lilas of Sri Krishna.

The supreme goal is not Mukti or emancipation. The highest goal is eternal service of Lord Krishna and participation in His sports in the celestial Vrindavana. Those who have developed Vyasana, or strong passion for God, reject with scorn the four kinds of Mukti. The Maryada-Bhaktas attain Sayujya Mukti, i.e., they become one with Sri Krishna. The Pushti-Bhaktas reject Mukti and take part in the sports or Lilas of Sri Krishna. They choose with intense delight the eternal service of Sri Krishna. The Bhaktas assume the forms of cows, birds, trees and rivers and enjoy the company of Sri Krishna, which bestows infinite joy. These sports are similar to those which Sri Krishna did in Vraja and Vrindavana. Some of the devotees become Gopas and Gopis and join the sports in the celestial Vrindavana.

Different Kinds of Liberated Souls

The liberated souls are of different kinds. Some have freed themselves like Sanaka. Some dwell in the city of God and attain salvation through the grace of the Lord. Some others develop perfect love and become the associates of God.

 

Here Shri Shri Jagadguru Vallabhacharya had nowehere mentioned about shiva. only krishna is mentioned as parabrahma. moreover Mahaprabhuji had directed his followers only to worship krishna only. if mahaprabhuji had told to worship shiva also then why not shiva is not placed in pushti havelis ? only thakoreji is worshipped in pushti havelis. so without knowing teachings of Mahaprabhuji dont come to wrong conclusion.

In Vallabha Vaishnavam, only one God is worshipped, ie., Lord Krishna. So dont try to oversmart us.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Mahaprabhu Vallabhacharya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

[Guest guest]

 

Here Shri Shri Jagadguru Vallabhacharya had nowehere mentioned about shiva. only krishna is mentioned as parabrahma. moreover Mahaprabhuji had directed his followers only to worship krishna only. if mahaprabhuji had told to worship shiva also then why not shiva is not placed in pushti havelis ? only thakoreji is worshipped in pushti havelis.

 

 

 

 

You're arguing with yourself. None of the points you argue against were ever stated by me. How does any of what you say apply to Swami Naryan's and Vallabh's words on shiva?

 

 

so without knowing teachings of Mahaprabhuji dont come to wrong conclusion.

 

 

You have trouble understanding and accepting Mahaprabhu's teachings. Take them as they are.

[Guest guest]

<--- You have trouble understanding and accepting Mahaprabhu's teachings. Take them as they are. --- >

 

I am a pushti-margi. i know better about "pushti-marg" than you. so i know meaning of teachings of mahaprabhuji lot better than you. mahaprabhuji had ordered us to worship thakoreji "only".

 

so without knowing anything about pushti-marg dont blabber. u only posted this thread to create controversy among vaishnavas. so as a pushti-margi its duty of me to clarify. thats what i did. if u cant handle the truth just scamper away instead of blaming me.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

[Guest guest]

and argue with yourself. Some like to take things as they are, some otherwise. Both sides are free to do so.

[Guest guest]

wahtever you accuse me applies to you only as no wrong in my side.

[Guest guest]

Ekatmyameva Vigneyam Narayanamaheshyoha |

Ubhyorbrahmanrupera Vedeshu Pratipadanat ||47||

 

Vastunaha Sthiti Samharau Karyau Shashtra Pravartakau |

Brahameva Tadrusham Yasmat, Sarvatma Katyoditau ||12||

 

Nirdosh Purna Gunata Tatsahastre Tayoho Kruta |

[Guest guest]

Krishna, known as an incarnation of Vishnu states that he is also Shiva.

 

Bhagavad Gita 10:23

 

"Among the Rudras, I am Shiva..."

[Guest guest]

Why is there no murti of Ram, Sita, Laxman and Hanuman (Ram Darbar) in any swaminarayan mandir that I have ever been to?

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(Why is there no murti of Ram, Sita, Laxman and Hanuman (Ram Darbar) in any swaminarayan mandir that I have ever been to? )

 

It is obvious you have not been to Neasden temple, it is very nice, here not only you find Lord Ram, mother Sita Laxman and Hanuman but also Lord shiva.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Why is it an insult to Shiva to call him the most exalted devotee of Krsna?

 

- we always see Shiva and Brahma meditating on beads...

- which begs the question why does Supeme God have to meditate? The fact is God doesn't meditate, he enjoys, like Krsna does...

- in Gita, Krsna says I am source of all incarnations, there is no-one higher than me

- in Srimad Bhagavatam, Shiva explains his devotion to Krsna, and how Krsna saved him form Vrikasura

- in Shiva Purana the first line contains the names of Caitanya and Nityananda, clearly earmarking him as a Vaishnava

 

[Guest guest]

The Skanda Purana also mentions Bhubaneswar ksetra. Once, in Kasi, Varanasi, there was a King who was a great devotee of Lord Siva, but his desires where unfulfilled. That King underwent severe penances in order to conquer Lord Krishna. He was doing tapasya to satisfy Lord Siva with the desire to conquer Krishna.

 

Who can understand the behavior of a vaisnava? Even the demigods cannot understand it, then what to speak of the human beings? Sivaji became pleased with the King’s tapasya and told him: "All right. You go and fight against Krishna. I will follow you to support and help you." So that King started for battle, followed by Lord Siva and all his followers. Krishna, who is known as Vasudeva, Devakinandana, could understand all this. Thus He released His sudarsana cakra. Sudarsana first cut off the head of the king, and then that cakra cut off the heads of all the Siva bhaktas of Kasi. Varanasi turned into a crematorium ground with everyone dead. Lord Siva then became very angry and released his pasupata-astra. But what can the pasupata-astra do in front of Krishna's sudarsana cakra? It could not do anything, and at last Siva became frightened. He tried to run away, but where could he go? Then Siva understood, "Except for Krishna, no one can save me now." So he surrendered to the lotus feet of Krishna, Govinda, and offered many prayers. Siva said: "O Lord of my heart, I have only one prayer. I am always very puffed up and I have this great false ego. But now I have understood that I cannot leave You. I cannot stay anywhere else, so please tell me where shall I live now?"

[Guest guest]

Srimad Bhagavatam is the ONLY text that clearly states:

 

'there is no cheating method in this scripture'

 

'this purana is spotless'

 

In Siva Purana, Lord Siva is depicted as the source of Lord Visnu but in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Visnu is said to be the source of Siva. Why all these contradictions that have created havoc in present day so-called Hinduism?

 

This topic is discussed in Sri Jiva Goswami's Tattva-sandarbha. The Puranas were written in consideration of the threefold influence of the material modes of nature. Thus they encourage worship such that those influenced by the modes of goodness, passion, and ignorance will all be enthused to participate. Accordingly, the glories of various gods and goddesses are described. These Puranas detail partial religious insights that appeal to different types of conditioning. Understanding them in context, however, requires reading the Bhagavata Purana (Srimad-Bhagavatam). Srimad-Bhagavatam is amala purana, the spotless Purana intended for those interested in life beyond the modes of nature. It is Vedanta at its best, artho yam brahma sutranam.

 

Not all scriptural statements are true. The scripture sometimes employs exaggeration to achieve its purpose. It must be studied systematically in consideration of context--tat tu samanvayat, and it must be studied under the guidance of a sadhu. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the hub around which the scripture can be understood in context.

 

Furthermore, scripture is ultimately provisional in nature, although this is evident only to spiritually advanced souls who can read between its lines. Ostensibly it is written so as to conceal its provisional nature with emphasis on its authority such that the general reader will be moved to regard it and come under its do's and don'ts and thus live religiously. Leading a religious life, one gradually understands the scripture's essential message, transcending its jurisdiction. But even at that point one is drawn to Srimad-Bhagavatam, as was Sukadeva Goswami. He was beyond scripture, nirgrantha, yet attracted to the lilas of Krsna, which are the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and in which there is no exaggeration. The Bhagavatam implores us to hear Krsna-lila and enter the raga-marg.

 

anugrahaya bhaktanam

manusam deham asritah

bhajate tadrsih krida

yah srutva tat-paro bhavet

 

"Krsna manifests his eternal humanlike form and performs his pastimes to show mercy to the devotees. Having heard such pastimes, one must serve him."

 

Here the word bhavet is in the imperative. One must serve Krsna after hearing his lilas because they are so attractive. Those with feeling can understand this.

[Guest guest]

The yogi who left his home as a child and realized God?

 

There's a movie coming out on him called Mystic India on Imax.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(Srimad Bhagavatam is the ONLY text that clearly states:

'there is no cheating method in this scripture'

'this purana is spotless')

 

Let us see if you accept this.

Sri Bhagvat 4.1-28Atri Muni desiring a son like him called upon the Bhagvan thinking of him only. But although he is far beyond the mental speculation of man, all three of you have come here. Kindly let me know how you have come, I am greatly bewildered about this.

4.1/30 & 31

AS you willed, precisely so it must happen; it could not otherwise. For it was your will, O Bahmana- you, who are so true of resolve. We three (taken together) represent the truth on which you cotemplated. Now there will be born to you, may you be blessed, three sons embodying our rays, who will themselves be celebrated throughout the world; O dear sage, and shall spread your fame too.

 

4.6/42-46 Brahma said to Shiva: I know you to be the Ruler of the universe; for you are the same as the undifferentiated Brahma, etc

 

4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa.

 

8.7/21-35 Prajapati praying to Lord Shiva as supreme Brahman.

Read this with what Krishna says in BG. 10

Of Rudras I am Shanker.

 

we may begin to understand there is no contradiction

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

1) Atri Muni was asking for a son. He was not praying to the Lord as a pure devotee with no desire for anything in return. Hence, the aspect of the absolute truth that would be revealed to him would naturally be the three most powerful personalities of the universe (Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu). Krishna himself will only appear to devotees. Krishna is not just the most powerful in this universe, he is most powerful of all that is manifest and unmanifest. Brahma, Shiva and Ksirodaksayi Vishnu are specifically presiding over this particular universe.

 

2) Therefore it is not false. Ksirodaklsayi Vishnu is equal to Brahma and Shiva. This is not however the case with Narayana (the supreme cause of all universes, not just one universe), Krishna (the all-attractive Absolute Truth), and Mahavishnu (Karnadaksayi Visnu, the personality on the causal ocean). Those three personalities are superior to Brahma, Ksirodaksayi Visnu and Shiva.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"8.7/21-35 Prajapati praying to Lord Shiva as supreme Brahman.

Read this with what Krishna says in BG. 10

Of Rudras I am Shanker."

 

 

Lord Shiva is an aspect of the Supreme Brahman, since Sadashiva is the Supreme Brahman's manifestation into the material world as Shiva-tattva.

 

Krishna also says of wild beasts I am Lion - that does not mean we should pray to Lion as God...

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

( Atri Muni was asking for a son.)

 

Yes not just any son but,

4.1/20 I resort to protection to him who is the Lord of the universe. May he bless me with offspring like Himself.

 

Re

( He was not praying to the Lord as a pure devotee with no desire for anything in return. Hence, the aspect of the absolute truth that would be revealed to him would naturally be the three most powerful personalities of the universe (Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu)

 

And you know Atri?

 

Atri muni(One of the sapta rishi) together with Sati Ansuya are one of the pillars of Vedic Dharma, for me to write any thing about them, I want be able to do justice.

 

Re

(Krishna himself will only appear to devotees. Krishna is not just the most powerful in this universe, he is most powerful of all that is manifest and unmanifest.)

 

Yes I agree.

 

Re

( Brahma, Shiva and Ksirodaksayi Vishnu are specifically presiding over this particular universe.)

2) Therefore it is not false. Ksirodaklsayi Vishnu is equal to Brahma and Shiva. This is not however the case with Narayana (the supreme cause of all universes, not just one universe), Krishna (the all-attractive Absolute Truth), and Mahavishnu (Karnadaksayi Visnu, the personality on the causal ocean). Those three personalities are superior to Brahma, Ksirodaksayi Visnu and Shiva.)

 

these are all same personalities going by different names and gunas. 4.7/50-54

 

 

Re

 

 

(Lord Shiva is an aspect of the Supreme Brahman, since Sadashiva is the Supreme Brahman's manifestation into the material world as Shiva-tattva.)

 

In another word one and the same with different roles.

 

Re

(Krishna also says of wild beasts I am Lion - that does not mean we should pray to Lion as God...)

If you are able to see Krishna in lion why not. But you are wrong in equating this statement with the specific statement of shankra. Shankar Bhagvan is already a subject of debate, who is worshiped as Bhagvan in many places, and Lord Shree Krishna confirms this.

Jai Narsinghdev

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

"Yes not just any son but,

4.1/20 I resort to protection to him who is the Lord of the universe. May he bless me with offspring like Himself."

 

The Lord of the Universe is not specific enough - the Supreme cause of all causes would be more specific. Brahma, Ksirodaksayi Visnu or Shiva can easily make a claim to being Lord of Universe, since they have equal roles. My point is that Mahavishnu does not have an equal role to those three - he is higher, superior to them all.

 

Whenever a boon is requested, even if spiritual, Krishna himself will not come down, it will be his exalted servants i.e. Brahma, Ksir. Vishnu, and Shiva.

 

"these are all same personalities going by different names and gunas"

 

That is in the sense that we are all spirit soul coming from the one Supreme Lord - does not mean we are equal to the Lord.

 

"In another word one and the same with different roles."

 

No, the Supreme Brahman has a source also - Krishna says 'I am the basis of that Brahman'...

 

"If you are able to see Krishna in lion why not. But you are wrong in equating this statement with the specific statement of shankra. Shankar Bhagvan is already a subject of debate, who is worshiped as Bhagvan in many places, and Lord Shree Krishna confirms this."

 

Shankar is worshipped as Bhagavan in the Puranas perdominated by the mode of ignorance.

 

Even the Shiva Mahapurana is pretty clear that Krsna is the refuge of Shankar.

[Guest guest]

Atharva Veda - Gopala tapani Upanishad 1.24:

 

"He who existed before the creation of Brahma and who enlightened Brahma with Vedic knowledge is Lord Sri Krsna".

 

Bhagavad Gita 10.8:

 

"I am the source of all worlds. Everything emanates from Me."

 

Narayana Upanishad 1:

 

"From Narayana, Brahma was born. Narayana created the eleven Rudras."

 

part 4:

 

"Devaki's son is the Supreme Lord"

 

Atharva Veda, Maha Upanishad 1:

 

"Only Narayana existed in the beginning, when niether Brahma nor Shiva existed."

 

Brahma Himself speaks in Brahma Samhita (5.1):

 

"I worship primeval Supreme Lord known as Govinda, delighter of every living being and cause of all causes"

 

Shiva Purana contains instances where Shiva is doing penance - why would God need to do penance?

 

All authorities on Vedic texts agree that the 18 puranas are divided according to the modes of nature. Shiva Purana is part of the six scriptures in the mode of ignorance - the basic knowledge.

 

Bhagavat Purana is part of the puranas in the mode of goodness - the most conducive to self-realisation.

 

Even without using the puranas as the basis of analysis, the quotes above from the Upanishads and the Atharva Veda confirm the supremacy of Krsna and Narayana.