Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(The Lord of the Universe is not specific enough - the Supreme cause of all causes would be more specific.)

Wow I don’t know about yours but here is Atri Rishi qulificatin

4.1/17

urged by Brahma to multiply creation, the sage Atri, the foremost of the knower of Brahman, removed with his wife to the Rksa mountain, intent on practicing austere penance.

 

 

Re

( Brahma, Ksirodaksayi Visnu or Shiva can easily make a claim to being Lord of Universe, since they have equal roles. My point is that Mahavishnu does not have an equal role to those three - he is higher, superior to them all.)

 

 

No not equal role do not try to misrepresent, different roles, but this is what the lord says;

4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa.

 

 

 

Re

 

(That is in the sense that we are all spirit soul coming from the one Supreme Lord - does not mean we are equal to the Lord.)

 

Now where have I said this?

 

 

Re

(No, the Supreme Brahman has a source also - Krishna says 'I am the basis of that Brahman'...)

They are eternal one entity.

 

Re

 

(Shankar is worshipped as Bhagavan in the Puranas perdominated by the mode of ignorance.)

Yes when prajapati are praying to the lord they must be in ignorance deluded by the affect of the poision or Arjun Or lord Sri Ram

Any case what different does that make, predominated by mode of ignorance, Bhagvan is Bhagvan.

 

Re

(Even the Shiva Mahapurana is pretty clear that Krsna is the refuge of Shankar. )

 

You must be reading different from the one that I have, in any case I am not arguing who is greater, since I see them both as same, therefore I accept what Krishna says at face value, of Rudra I am Shankar..

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

Narayana...Krishna...and Mahavishnu. Those three personalities are superior to Brahma, Ksirodaksayi Visnu and Shiva.

 

Brahma, Ksirodaksayi Visnu or Shiva can easily make a claim to being Lord of Universe, since they have equal roles. My point is that Mahavishnu does not have an equal role to those three - he is higher, superior to them all.

 

Sadashiva is the Supreme Brahman's manifestation into the material world as Shiva-tattva

 

 

 

This guy is giving twisted information for whatever reason. Shashtras and Saints give correct information.

[Guest guest]

"Wow I don’t know about yours but here is Atri Rishi qulificatin

4.1/17

urged by Brahma to multiply creation, the sage Atri, the foremost of the knower of Brahman, removed with his wife to the Rksa mountain, intent on practicing austere penance."

 

I'm not questioning Atri Rishi's qualification

 

"No not equal role do not try to misrepresent, different roles, but this is what the lord says;

4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa."

 

In other scriptures it is explicitly stated that Narayana was there before Shiva or Brahma came into existence. (See three posts above). There is difference since shiva himself states in the Bhagavatam that he prays to Lord Krsna. Similarly, Krsna states that those who worship others are worshipping in the wrong way.

 

"Yes when prajapati are praying to the lord they must be in ignorance deluded by the affect of the poision or Arjun Or lord Sri Ram

Any case what different does that make, predominated by mode of ignorance, Bhagvan is Bhagvan. "

 

When Rama or Arjuna are praying to Shiva, they are praying for a boon. That is what Shiva provides. Arjuna prayed for weapons. Atri Muni prayed for protection.

 

When they are actually requesting to serve the Supreme Lord, that is when Krsna shows Himself, since he is the original person (Brahma Samhita)

 

How can u say they are equal when Krsna says 'there is no one equal to me. Noone is higher than me'

 

Shiva Purana makes conclusions about Shiva being supreme. I admit that. But the Matsya Purana states that Shiva Purana is one of the puranas there for basic knowledge, as one starts to destroy ignorance. The cream of the Vedas, the spotless Purana, Bhagavt Purana, however is firmly situated in the mode of goodness (according to Matsya Purana) - and the conlcusion there is God is a cowherd boy who plays a flute. Vasudevah (Krsna).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"This guy is giving twisted information for whatever reason. Shashtras and Saints give correct information."

 

If you view four posts above, you will see sets of shastric quotes to back up my point. It is not twisted information...

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

Re

 

(I'm not questioning Atri Rishi's qualification)

 

Yes you did by implication, suggested he is not pure devotee.

 

Re

 

(In other scriptures it is explicitly stated that Narayana was there before Shiva or Brahma came into existence. (See three posts above). There is difference since shiva himself states in the Bhagavatam that he prays to Lord Krsna. Similarly, Krsna states that those who worship others are worshipping in the wrong way.)

 

But why do you insist on ignoring what lord himself said in Bhagavat 4.7/50-54

Or what Krishna saying in bg.10.23

 

Re

(When Rama or Arjuna are praying to Shiva, they are praying for a boon. That is what Shiva provides. Arjuna prayed for weapons. Atri Muni prayed for protection.)

 

Correction Atri muni prayed for son equal to supreme Lord

 

Again you have changed the point of discussion, you stated people in mode of ignorance worship Lord Shiva. Ram, Arjun, Atri are not that is my point.

 

Re

(When they are actually requesting to serve the Supreme Lord, that is when Krsna shows Himself, since he is the original person (Brahma Samhita)

 

How can u say they are equal when Krsna says 'there is no one equal to me. Noone is higher than me')

 

I have not argued against Krishna, point is, is Lord Shiva the same? Since Lord Krishna himself declares the fact who am I to argue.

 

After all, the vedas proclaim "Ekam Sata Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti" or "Truth is One but the wise see it in Different Ways".

 

Re

 

(Shiva Purana makes conclusions about Shiva being supreme. I admit that. But the Matsya Purana states that Shiva Purana is one of the puranas there for basic knowledge, as one starts to destroy ignorance. The cream of the Vedas, the spotless Purana, Bhagavt Purana, however is firmly situated in the mode of goodness (according to Matsya Purana) - and the conlcusion there is God is a cowherd boy who plays a flute. Vasudevah (Krsna).)

 

Basic is equally important otherwise complex subject become difficult to understand.

There is also a misconception thinking purans are satvik or tamsik, fact of the matter is the supreme controller of three gunas are discussed here.

 

I have no problem with the conclusion in the puranas, you will find in every one of them at some point all three are glorified as same.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

If you view four posts above, you will see sets of shastric quotes to back up my point. It is not twisted information...

 

Great. I'll stick with the Shastras and Saints conclusion.

[Guest guest]

 

No doubt Shri Krishna is the supreme God Head. That is what He says in Gita.

No doubt that Krishna is none other than Mahesvara.

 

yo mam ajam anadim ca vetti loka-mahesvaram

asammudhah sa martyesu sarva-papaih pramucyate

 

He alone who knows Me as unborn, beginningless, and as Mahesvara, the Supreme Controller of all the worlds, is undeluded among mortals and freed from all sins.

 

 

In five other verses Shri Krishna has affirmed that He is Mahesvara. Some people however, persist in their ways and are thus far off from obtaining Krishna’s grace.

 

 

Now Rig Veda is a song for Rudra who is Universe’s father as shown below.

Book 6

HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas.

1. I LAUD with newest songs the Righteous People, Mitra and Varuna who make us happy. Let them approach, here let them listen, Agni, Varuna, Mitra, Lords of fair dominion.

-----------.

10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.

See below again that Rig Veda is a song of praise for Rudra. On account of these songs of praise the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

Book 10 RV

HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

--------

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

10 For these have spread abroad the fame of human kind, the Bull Brhaspati and Soma's brotherhood. Atharvan first by sacrifices made men sure: through skill the Bhrgus were esteemed of all as Gods.

 

11 For these, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

 

 

Now regarding stories depicting Shiva running away from Visnu or Krishna. These are jokes approved by the Lord himself. In this connection see what Yajur Vrda says. Who ran away from whom?

Yajur Veda Part 6 vi. 5. 6.

-------

The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in (the cups) for two deities, ------------.

 

Then Krishna says I am Shankara. So, is it not a joke that Krishna will hurl charka at Himself and then He will Himself run away?

Realise that the Self is the Supreme.

And by the way SadaShiva has no manifestation. That is why Linga is an indicatory diety.

 

[Guest guest]

Rig Veda is a song of praise for Rudra. On account of these songs of praise the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

Book 10 RV

HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

--------

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

10 For these have spread abroad the fame of human kind, the Bull Brhaspati and Soma's brotherhood. Atharvan first by sacrifices made men sure: through skill the Bhrgus were esteemed of all as Gods.

 

11 For these, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(Why is there no murti of Ram, Sita, Laxman and Hanuman (Ram Darbar) in any swaminarayan mandir that I have ever been to? )

 

It is obvious you have not been to Neasden temple, it is very nice, here not only you find Lord Ram, mother Sita Laxman and Hanuman but also Lord shiva.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

I have been there. They do not have the traditional Ram Darbar. They have Ram and Sitaji on their own. The Darbar is represented by Ramji, Sita, Laxman and hanumanji. See the Hare Krsna Mandir for how the arrangement should be.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

RE

(I have been there. They do not have the traditional Ram Darbar. They have Ram and Sitaji on their own. The Darbar is represented by Ramji, Sita, Laxman and hanumanji.)

 

 

My profound apologies and for that there is no excuse, I guess in marveling the architecture splendor I overlooked the obvious omission.

 

RE

(See the Hare Krsna Mandir for how the arrangement should be. )

 

 

Yes Hare Krishna mandir has beautiful deities of lord Shree Ram and his darbar,

I was actually fortunate enough to witness the actual installation ceremony.

 

I could ask the same question why there is no lord Shiva worship in Hare Krishna mandir.

 

I know their answer but it still hurts.

 

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

"Yes you did by implication, suggested he is not pure devotee"

 

When Atri asked for a son, he did not ask for it in the mood of a pure devotee, so the personalities that appeared were Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, who deal with boons - not devotion. This is not to say that Atri Muni was not a pure devotee, rather that in that particular instance he was asking for something not purely out of devotion.

 

"But why do you insist on ignoring what lord himself said in Bhagavat 4.7/50-54

Or what Krishna saying in bg.10.23"

 

I am not ignoring. Brahma Shiva Vishnu are equal - Krsna is however superior to them all. 4.7 is in regard to the supreme cause of 'the universe' - not all the universes. Krsna is stated as the source of 'all the universes, the material, spiritual worlds, all that is manifest AND UNMANIFEST' - so it is a much higher position.

 

Again 10.23 in bg is Krsna explaining his ultimate position in relation to all things. In order to give an idea to Arjuna of how powerful and opulent he is. He therefore says of Rudra I am Shankar, Of this i am that...if anything 10.23 just confirms that Krsna is also the source of Shankar.

 

"Correction Atri muni prayed for son equal to supreme Lord

 

Again you have changed the point of discussion, you stated people in mode of ignorance worship Lord Shiva. Ram, Arjun, Atri are not that is my point. "

 

 

Atri Muni prayed for a son - so that is asking for something in return. Therefore Krsna did not manifest in front of him.

 

People in the mode of ignorance pray to Shiva as Supreme Cuase of all causes. Atri Muni, Rama, Arjuna prayed to Shiva as the Lord of this Universe - i.e. this particular Universe. Therefore they were not in ignorance since they were not praying to him as cause of all the universes.

 

"I have not argued against Krishna, point is, is Lord Shiva the same? Since Lord Krishna himself declares the fact who am I to argue.

 

After all, the vedas proclaim "Ekam Sata Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti" or "Truth is One but the wise see it in Different Ways".

 

Lord Shiva is not the same:

 

Shiva takes refuge in Krsna when attacked by Vrikasura. If they are equal, why take shelter of Krsna?

 

Krsna states 'no-one is equal to me'. How can Shiva be equal?

 

Truth is one but the wise see it in different ways. In other words this refers to the Bhagavad Gita quote, where it says that a pure devotee can see all living beings as part and parcel of God. They can in that respect see that we are all divine souls. Not that many different Gods are absolute.

 

"Basic is equally important otherwise complex subject become difficult to understand.

There is also a misconception thinking purans are satvik or tamsik, fact of the matter is the supreme controller of three gunas are discussed here."

 

If a purana is sattvic, it is meant for those who have elevated to the mode of goodness - i.e those who want to know the truth sincerely. If a purana is tamasik, it is meant for those in the mode of ignorance, those who want to learn about God but are not at a sufficient level of consciousness to accept the conclusions of the sattvic puranas. This is confirmed in Bhagavad Gita - those in the mode of ignorance worship the demigods. Those in the mode of goodness worship Vishnu-tattva.

 

Lord Shiva himself states in the Padma Purana that the Shiva Purana is in the mode of ignorance, hence any contradiction between that Purana and a Purana in the mode of goodness must mean that the verse from the Shiva Purana has to be interpreted in a way that is compatible with the Sattvic Purana.

 

Example:

 

Srimad Bhagavatam (Sattvic) concludes that Vasudevah (Krsna) is Supreme.

 

Shiva Purana (Tamasic) states that Krsna is a devotee of Shiva. One can interpret this to mean that Krsna is devoted to his servants. Just like Krsna is controlled by Radha, in the same way, Krsna is very devoted to his most exalted servant, Lord Shiva.

 

Finally, the puranas clearly glorify Krsna as Supreme. Not all three.

 

Lord Brahma himself states that he prays to Krsna (Govinda) is isvarah paramah - Supreme Controller. So Brahma is indicating that he is inferior to Krsna.

 

Lord Shiva takes shelter of Krsna in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

It seems the Sattvic puranas conclude that Krsna is Supreme.

Only one purana, Shiva Purana, concludes that Shiva is supreme. So, if you want to reject the conclusions of 17 puranas for the conclusion of one tamasic purana, then go ahead. I think it makes more sense to follow the overall conclusion.

 

[Guest guest]

Book 10 RV

HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

--------

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, ---------

10 For these have spread abroad the fame of human kind, ----------

11 For these, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

 

 

 

Read Yoga Vashishta baby.

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(When Atri asked for a son, he did not ask for it in the mood of a pure devotee, so the personalities that appeared were Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, who deal with boons - not devotion.)

 

Asking for a son equal to supreme lord is not in the mood of pure devotee! This we are talking about, the son of Brahma, the foremost of the knower of Brahman.

 

Re

(This is not to say that Atri Muni was not a pure devotee, rather that in that particular instance he was asking for something not purely out of devotion.)

 

now you know the mood of Atri Rishi wow.

Him the knower of Brahman, obeying his father, asking for a son equal to the supreme lord is deemed by you to be material requirement.

 

 

 

Re

(I am not ignoring. Brahma Shiva Vishnu are equal - Krsna is however superior to them all. 4.7 is in regard to the supreme cause of 'the universe' - not all the universes. Krsna is stated as the source of 'all the universes, the material, spiritual worlds, all that is manifest AND UNMANIFEST' - so it is a much higher position.)

 

These are statements of any devotee who would rightly think his worship able istdev is the highest; a Shiva devotee would think the same.

 

Re

(Again 10.23 in bg is Krsna explaining his ultimate position in relation to all things. In order to give an idea to Arjuna of how powerful and opulent he is. He therefore says of Rudra I am Shankar, Of this i am that...if anything 10.23 just confirms that Krsna is also the source of Shankar.)

 

Again your opinion, twisting and turning to suit your position.

First Krishna is responding to Arjuns question how may I worship you in different forms?

These are not the answers of a diplomat but from supreme Lord, he also says I am Vishnu or I am Ram.

 

 

Re

 

(Atri Muni prayed for a son - so that is asking for something in return. Therefore Krsna did not manifest in front of him.)

 

He prayed for a son equal to supreme Brahman, this is not any some thing in return, therefore when all three appeared he was surprised but he was assured thus

AS you willed, precisely so it must happen; it could not otherwise. For it was your will, O Bahmana- you, who are so true of resolve. We three (taken together) represent the truth on which you cotemplated. Now there will be born to you, may you be blessed, three sons embodying our rays, who will themselves be celebrated throughout the world; O dear sage, and shall spread your fame too.

There is a lila happening here, while Atri Rishi is Meditating Sati Ansuya was being tested By three Devine mothers if you cared to read you might understand Atri Rishi is not just asking for something in return.

 

 

Re

(People in the mode of ignorance pray to Shiva as Supreme Cuase of all causes. Atri Muni, Rama, Arjuna prayed to Shiva as the Lord of this Universe - i.e. this particular Universe. Therefore they were not in ignorance since they were not praying to him as cause of all the universes.)

 

there you go again changing the goal post, first you stated people in ignorance pray to Lord Shiva, when I point out to you that likes of Ram, Arjun also prayed to Lord Shiva, you change your statement, only those who pray to lord Shiva as cause of all causes are in ignorance.

Sarvalok Maheshishvar Ki jai.

 

 

 

 

Re

(Shiva takes refuge in Krsna when attacked by Vrikasura. If they are equal, why take shelter of Krsna?)

 

Who can fathom the lilas of the lord, don’t think for one minute the lord who can destroy the universe could not destroy the demon, only had to open his eye and destroy the demon.

 

Re

(Krsna states 'no-one is equal to me'. How can Shiva be equal?)

 

There is no question of equal, but when one player playing different role is the same person ie two side of the same coin.

Re

 

(Truth is one but the wise see it in different ways. In other words this refers to the Bhagavad Gita quote, where it says that a pure devotee can see all living beings as part and parcel of God. They can in that respect see that we are all divine souls. Not that many different Gods are absolute.)

 

This is your sweet interpretation not what Vedas say "Ekam Sata Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti"

 

Re

(If a purana is sattvic, it is meant for those who have elevated to the mode of goodness - i.e those who want to know the truth sincerely. If a purana is tamasik, it is meant for those in the mode of ignorance, those who want to learn about God but are not at a sufficient level of consciousness to accept the conclusions of the sattvic puranas. This is confirmed in Bhagavad Gita - those in the mode of ignorance worship the demigods. Those in the mode of goodness worship Vishnu-tattva.)

 

Others and I will take you seriously if you quote the Gita correctly, you are simply blinded by your one track mind here is the verse in Bg.17.4

The Saattvika persons worship Devas, the Raajasika people worship demigods and demons, and the Taamasika persons worship ghosts and spirits. (17.04)

 

Also note he does not say people in ignorance worship Lord Shiva please take note before you ever quote that again.

 

in relation to rest of your post which is nothing more then personal views I like to reiterate that the purans are divided in three categories satvik, rajsik and tamsik are glorification of the personality controlling and possessing in full the said gunas prove me wrong if you can.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Friend,

 

Your calm and cool way is probably admired by gods. This should not inflate your ego -- if there is even a bit left.

 

Your calm and patient way that uproots all lies can come from real understanding that the I is the Supreme Lord only. The small i makes one defend "my God" foolishly. Such a person does not love God, he simply loves "My god", wherein "my" is main.

 

May God bless you. May God bless me. May God bless all.

[Guest guest]

SB 4.1.26-27: But since his heart was already attracted by the deities, somehow or other he gathered his senses, and with folded hands and sweet words he began to offer prayers to the predominating deities of the universe. The great sage Atri said: O Lord Brahma, Lord Viṣṇu and Lord Siva, you have divided yourself into three bodies by accepting the three modes of material nature, as you do in every millennium for the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the cosmic manifestation. I offer my respectful obeisances unto all of you and beg to inquire whom of you three I have called by my prayer

 

In other words, Krsna is the lord who divides himself into Brahma Shiva and Vishnu. It is pretty clear.

 

BG 10.18: O Janardana, again please describe in detail the mystic power of Your opulences. I am never satiated in hearing about You, for the more I hear the more I want to taste the nectar of Your words.

 

Therefore Krsna is merely describing the 'power of his opulences' not that Shiva or Lions or the Moon is equal to him.

 

BG 18.66: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear

 

I admit that those in the mode of goodness pray to the demigods. However, the ultimate aim is described above. Transcend the mode of goodness. While praying to demigods one is still in material suffering. By abandoning that and praying to Krsna, one loses all good and bad reactions and goes back to Krsna. He is delivered. Simple as that.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

Re

(In other words, Krsna is the lord who divides himself into Brahma Shiva and Vishnu. It is pretty clear.)

 

Since the supreme Brahman is indivisible, it is pretty clear he assume this forms

read this again

4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa.

 

Or prajapati praying to lord Shiva 8.7 21-23

o god of gods, o supreme deity, the protector, nay the very self of (all) created beings, save us, that has sought refuge in you, from this poison, which is burning the three worlds(21) You are the one lord competent to enthrall and liberate the whole world. Such as you are the wise worship you, the Preceptor , capable of relieving the agony of those who have sought refuge in you.(22)when you undertake through your own energy, consisting of three gunas, the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the universe, O self seeing lord, You assume the title of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva O perfect one!(23)

So my friend when Krishna declares I am Shankar I do not doubt that in any way.

 

Re

 

(BG 10.18: O Janardana, again please describe in detail the mystic power of Your opulences. I am never satiated in hearing about You, for the more I hear the more I want to taste the nectar of Your words.)

 

Are power and opulence’s of the lord separate from him?

Have you heard of energy and energetic.

And in the verse previous to this he is clearly asking

How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form (of manifestation) are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17)

 

Re

(Therefore Krsna is merely describing the 'power of his opulences' not that Shiva or Lions or the Moon is equal to him.)

 

Or Ram or Vishnu or Anantsesh!

 

Re

(BG 18.66: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear)

This is very nice.

 

Re

( While praying to demigods one is still in material suffering. By abandoning that and praying to Krsna, one loses all good and bad reactions and goes back to Krsna. He is delivered. Simple as that. )

 

you are great at assuming that those who pray to other devas are because they are in material suffering, you cant understand that there are those who love their Istdeva.

Bg.9.15

 

Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Thank you for your kind words.

i dont know if i deserve your praise or not but i certainly accept your blessings.

Serve bhavantu sukhinah sarve santu niramayah

sarve bhadrani pashyantu makashchid dukha- mapnuyat

 

God bless us all

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

4.7/50-54:

 

Again, I reiterate, Brahma, Rudra and Vishnu should not be seen as 'distinct entities' according to this verse. I am not disputing that. However, it is also stated that the Lord 'divides himself' into the three 'according to the modes of nature in the MATERIAL WORLD'. So this begs the question, what is the lord's form in the spiritual world? That is answered by the Srimad Bhagavatam quite clearly. He is the lord who resides in Goloka Vrindavan enjoying prema bhava with the gopis. Krishna does not want to engage in mundane administration of the material world. So he expands himself into three in order to deal with the material world's administration. Thus nothing interferes in Vasudevah's enjoyment in the spiritual world.

 

8.7 21-23:

 

'deva-deva' means greatest of the demigods. I don't disagree with that. Shiva is the greatest of the demigods. Shiva is addressed as the supersoul since he is 'not distinct (4.7)' from Ksirodaksayi Vishnu, who is the source of Garbhadaksayi Vishnu (Supersoul). The key phrase in verse 23 is 'when you undertake through your own energy consisting of the three gunas'. This is compatible with the fact that Mahavishnu expands himself as Shiva when dealing with affairs of the external energy (material world).

 

"Have you heard of energy and energetic?"

 

Have you heard of achintya-beda-beda-tattva? The lord is both one with and independent of his creation. Krishna is both one with and independent of his plenary expansions of Shiva or Vishnu or the moon.

 

It's up to you to decide. My point is, you are arguing on the basis that Krishna is non-different from Shiva when he says 'Of Rudra I am Shankar'. In that sense then you could argue that the lion is god, that the moon is god, that Indra is God, the letter A is god. But I think I am correct in assuming that what you are trying to prove is that Brahma Shiva and Vishnu are collectively god, not Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, moon, letter A etc. You must use a different verse to prove your judgement if that is what you are trying to prove.

 

Bg 9.15 basically explains achintya beda-beda tattva:

 

1.Supreme Lord as the one without a second - personal form

 

2.diverse in many - all-pervading supersoul

 

3.in the universal form - impersonal form.

 

[Guest guest]

infact one must also consider the next verse.

 

9.15: others engage in sacrifice by cultivating knowledge

 

9.16: BUT IT IS I WHO AM THE RITUAL, I WHO AM THE SACRIFICE etc.

 

So one has a choice. One can either go through all these indirect paths to knowing God, or one can go directly to the ultimate receiver of all the sacrifices, Lord Syamasundara.

[Guest guest]

bg 9.23:

 

Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way

 

avidhi-pūrvakam — in a wrong way

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

Re

 

(Again, I reiterate, Brahma, Rudra and Vishnu should not be seen as 'distinct entities' according to this verse. I am not disputing that.)

 

That is very nice but I see a but coming, therefore you do not believe it.

 

Re

(However, it is also stated that the Lord 'divides himself' into the three 'according to the modes of nature in the MATERIAL WORLD'. )

 

Is the lord divisible?

 

Re

(So this begs the question, what is the lord's form in the spiritual world? That is answered by the Srimad Bhagavatam quite clearly. He is the lord who resides in Goloka Vrindavan enjoying prema bhava with the gopis.)

 

There are innumerable spiritual planets and one of them is Mahesh Dham and according to markand puran his abode is above vainkutha.

 

 

8.7 21-23:

Re

('deva-deva' means greatest of the demigods.)

 

your opinion. I find when ever Vishnu or Krishna is mention as deva they are supreme lord, but when Siva is mention as deva deva Mahadeva he is demigod! Krishna says he is Maheshvra he is supreme lord, lord siva is known as maheshsvara suddenly you change meaning of that to mean greatest of the devas.

 

In this instance I ask you who can be greater then all the devas, but the supreme lord?

Who can grant liberation but the lord.

 

SB 8.7.19: O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the Devas, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Śiva. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

SB 8.7.20: The Devas observed Lord Śiva sitting on the summit of Kailāsa Hill with his wife, Bhavānī, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The demigods offered him their obeisances and prayers with great respect.

 

Note all the Devas are here, lord siva is not a demigod he would be there churning the ocean otherwise. Also note he is worshiped by saintly person for liberation, so people in ignorance as stated by you earlier or worshiped for boon only, that theory of yours goes out of window. Devas do not offer liberation.

 

 

Re

(Shiva is addressed as the supersoul since he is 'not distinct (4.7)' from Ksirodaksayi Vishnu, who is the source of Garbhadaksayi Vishnu (Supersoul). The key phrase in verse 23 is 'when you undertake through your own energy consisting of the three gunas'. This is compatible with the fact that Mahavishnu expands himself as Shiva when dealing with affairs of the external energy (material world).

 

You are loosing me here, SB 8.7.23: O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

 

To me the key phrase is you are self effulgent and supreme. To me it makes no different if you say Vishnu expands himself as Shiva or Shiva expands himself as Vishnu. Since both of them have declared their oneness.

 

 

Re

 

(It's up to you to decide. My point is, you are arguing on the basis that Krishna is non-different from Shiva when he says 'Of Rudra I am Shankar'.)

 

No I am not arguing I am stating what Krishna has said in relation to Arjuns question How may I worship you in different forms. As it is well established from vedic times the worship of lord Shiva it is not difficult at least for me to take what Lord Krishna says at face value.i have provided few verses from Srimad Bhgvat to further back up what Krishna is saying but when we are in denial we will ignore the evidence. I have provided verses where the lord are saying we are one, you have not given one verse from anywhere saying they are not.

 

Re

(In that sense then you could argue that the lion is god, that the moon is god, that Indra is God, the letter A is god. But I think I am correct in assuming that what you are trying to prove is that Brahma Shiva and Vishnu are collectively god, not Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, moon, letter A etc. You must use a different verse to prove your judgement if that is what you are trying to prove.)

 

I am not trying to prove, at least not the way you put it, the lord is one, he create, he maintains and he destroys and he goes by many names that is all.

As to the lion, the moon,Indra or Letter A(without which there is no speech) as I say before if you are able to worship them why not, why doubt him even if we do not fully understand.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

"Is the lord divisible?"

 

Parabrahman is not divisible in its form as parabrahman. If there is more than one (Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra), then the personalities are expansions of Parabrahman. Krishna is parabrahman, he expands himself as Brahma Vishnu Rudra in order to administer the material world.

 

 

"There are innumerable spiritual planets and one of them is Mahesh Dham and according to markand puran his abode is above vainkutha"

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam is described as ripened fruit of the trees of the Vedas, and i don't think it mentions Mahesh Dham as a spiritual abode. Plus this:

 

The divisions of the eighteen Puranas is defined by Lord Siva to Uma

in the Padma Purana (Uttara Khanda 236.18-21):

 

 

" O beautiful lady, one should know that the Visnu, Naradiya,

Bhagavata, Garuda, Padma and Varaha are all in the mode of goodness.

The Brahmanda, Brahma-vaivarta, Markandeya, Bhavisya, Vamana and

Brahma are in the mode of passion. The Matsya, Kurma, Linga, Siva,

Skanda and Agni are in the mode of ignorance."

 

 

"your opinion. I find when ever Vishnu or Krishna is mention as deva they are supreme lord, but when Siva is mention as deva deva Mahadeva he is demigod! Krishna says he is Maheshvra he is supreme lord, lord siva is known as maheshsvara suddenly you change meaning of that to mean greatest of the devas."

 

I never used a quote of deva to argue the meaning to be Supreme Lord, so you cannot level that accusation at me. As for Maheshwara - greatest controller - that I have no dispute. Since Shiva is responsible for the dissolution of the entire material manifestation, he is the greatest controller. Krishna is specifically described as source of the spiritual worlds - is there any shastra in the mode of goodness describing Shiva as source of spiritual world?

 

 

"Note all the Devas are here, lord siva is not a demigod he would be there churning the ocean otherwise. Also note he is worshiped by saintly person for liberation, so people in ignorance as stated by you earlier or worshiped for boon only, that theory of yours goes out of window. Devas do not offer liberation."

 

According to Krishna, seeking liberation is still not the purest devotion. Prahlada Maharaja describes how a devotee will seek the welfare of the Supreme Lord - even if it means the devotee having to stay in the material world. The gopis would commit apparent sins like apply dust to Krishna or leave their husbands just to please Krishna.

 

The Lord is always looking to glorify his devotee. Therefore Vishnu and the demigods glorify Shiva for saving the universe. Lord Shiva is for the auspicious development of the three worlds. The three worlds are all part of the material universe. Still there is no mention of him being the Spiritual World's highest personality.

 

 

"O Lord you are self-effulgent and supreme"

 

Shiva is self-effulgent since he is eternally empowered by Mahavishnu to destroy ignorance. He is supreme lord of the material universes.

 

"Vishnu expands himself as Shiva or Shiva expands himself as Vishnu. Since both of them have declared their oneness"

 

One has to understand clearly the three features of Vishnu. Mahavishnu sleeps on the causal ocean. He is the cause of all creation. It is specifically Ksirodaksayi Vishnu (or the maintainer) who declares his oneness with Lord Shiva. Mahavishnu is however, to my knowledge, never described as one with Shiva according to the Shastra.

 

 

"i have provided few verses from Srimad Bhgvat to further back up what Krishna is saying but when we are in denial we will ignore the evidence. I have provided verses where the lord are saying we are one, you have not given one verse from anywhere saying they are not."

 

 

The Lord in your quote is Ksirodaksayi Vishnu. There is no area where Mahavishnu describes Himself as one with Shiva. In fact Krishna specifically says that his ORIGINAL form is the one he possesses in Bhagavad Gita (i.e. two handed form). Now, if the original form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is th two-handed Krishna, then how can that simultaneously be the form of Vishnu (four-handed), Shiva (a whole different appearance) and Brahma (who admits that he is subject to material law of death in Brahma Samhita).

 

 

"Letter A(without which there is no speech) as I say before if you are able to worship them why not, why doubt him even if we do not fully understand."

 

BG says those who worship others are worshipping me, but in a WRONG WAY. If you want to follow the wrong way, go ahead.

 

 

[Guest guest]

SB 12.5.1: Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: This Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam has elaborately described in various narrations the Supreme Soul of all that be — the Personality of Godhead, Hari — from whose satisfaction Brahmā is born and from whose anger Rudra takes birth.

 

SB 12.5.9: My dear King, by constantly meditating upon the Supreme Lord, Vāsudeva, and by applying clear and logical intelligence, you should carefully consider your true self and how it is situated within the material body.

[Guest guest]

SB 12.11.25: O Kṛṣṇa, You are the proprietor of the transcendental abode.

 

Conclusive really

[Guest guest]

SB12.5.1: Sukadeva Gosvami said: This Shrimad-Bhagavatam has elaborately described in various narrations the Supreme Soul of all that be — the Personality of Godhead, Hari — from whose satisfaction Brahma is born and from whose anger Rudra takes birth.

 

SB 12.5.9: My dear King, by constantly meditating upon the Supreme Lord, Vasudeva, and by applying clear and logical intelligence, you should carefully consider your true self and how it is situated within the material body.

 

SB 12.11.25: O Krishna, You are the proprietor of the transcendental abode.

 

Conclusive really