Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

*********************NOW, here are shastra from a range of sources:

 

 

The Svetasvatara Upanishad (5.6): “--------- The gods like Shiva and the seers of the ancient, like Vamadeva rishi realizing Him, ever became dovetailed in His service and therefore they naturally became immortal.” ***********************************

 

 

 

You are a liar.

You are a liar.

You are a liar.

 

 

Not able to give a single Vedic reference you have started distorting scriptures.

 

 

This is a crime in the eye of Vishnu, who is truth embodied. This now also proves that anything cited by you and your preceptors are suspect. This is the truth. Let Lord Visnu will support the truth.

 

 

I have pasted a few translations below to show that there is no “Shiva” in the passage: “The gods like Shiva and the seers of the ancient, like Vamadeva rishi realizing Him, ever became dovetailed in His service and therefore they naturally became immortal.”

 

 

Translation 1

The Svetasvatara Upanishad (5.6)

5. The creator of all, who develops His own nature and brings to fruition all that can be ripened, who distributes all the qualities rules over this whole universe.

6. That which is hidden in the Vedas and the Upanishads, Brahma knows that as the origin of the Vedas. In the past the devas and the seers who knew It attained Its nature and became immortal.

 

Translation 2

The Svetasvatara Upanishad (5.6)

5—6

He who is the cause of all and who enables all things to function according to their nature; who brings to maturity all that can be ripened; who, being non—dual, rules over the whole universe and engages the gunas in their respective functions—He is concealed in the Upanishads, the secret part of the Vedas. Brahma knew Him who can be known only from the evidence of the Vedas. The gods and seers of olden times who knew Him became Brahman and attained Immortality.

 

Translation 3

The Svetasvatara Upanishad (5.6)

 

V-5: He who is the one source of the world brings out everything out of His own Nature, and leads creatures to perfection according to their deserts, and endows each being with its distinguishing characteristic. Thus he presides over the whole universe.

V-6: He lies hidden in the Upanishads, which form the essence of the Vedas. Him the Hiranyagarbha knows as the source of Himself and the Vedas. Those gods and seers who realized Him in former days became identified with Him, and verily became immortal.

 

 

And the Upanishad also states:

 

The Svetasvatara Upanishad Chapter III

2

Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

4

He, the omniscient Rudra, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the support of the universe, He who, in the beginning, gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

 

 

 

****************Chandogya Upanishad (3.17.6-7):

“Ghora Angihasa rishi advised his disciple that he should invoke Bhagavan Sri Krishna, the Son of Devakidevi [devakiputra], by repeating this triad thinking as if death is sitting upon his shoulder: ‘Thou art the Indestructible; Thou art the Unchangeable; Thou art the very Substratum that enlivens the entire universe.’” *********************

 

 

 

You are a liar.

 

 

I give below two translations that show your lies. Lying is a crime in the eye of Vishnu, who is truth embodied. This also proves that anything cited by you and your preceptors are suspect. This is the truth. Let Lord Visnu support the truth.

 

Translation 1

Chandogya Upanishad (3.17.6-7

 

6

Ghora, of the line of Angirasa, communicated this teaching to Krishna, the son of Devaki—and it quenched Krishna’s thirst for any other knowledge—and said: "When a man approaches death he should take refuge in these three thoughts: ‘Thou art indestructible (akshata),’ ‘Thou art unchanging (aprachyuta),’ and ‘Thou art the subtle prana.’

"On this subject there are two Rik—verses:

 

7

"They (i.e. the knowers of Brahman) see everywhere the Supreme Light, which shines in Brahman, which is all—pervading like the light of day and which belongs to the primeval Seed.

‘Perceiving the higher light in the sun—which is above the darkness of ignorance—as the higher light in the heart, perceiving the Supreme Light which is higher than all lights, we have reached the Highest Light, the Sun, the most luminous among the gods, yea, we have reached the Highest Light, the Sun, the most luminous among the gods."

 

Translation 2

Chandogya Upanishad (3.17.6-7

 

III-xvii-6: Ghora Angirasa expounded this well-known doctrine to Devaki’s son Krishna and said, ‘Such a knower should, at the time of death, repeat this triad – "Thou art the imperishable, Thou art unchangeable, Thou art the subtle essence of Prana". (On hearing the above) he became thirstless. There are these two Rik stanzas in regard to this.

 

III-xvii-7: (Those knowers of Brahman who have purified their mind through the withdrawal of the senses and other means like Brahmacharya) see everywhere (the day – like the supreme light) of the ancient One who is the seed of the universe, (the light that shines in the Effulgent Brahman). May we, too having perceived the highest light which dispels darkness, reach it. Having perceived the highest light in our own heart we have reached that highest light, which is the dispeller (of water, rays of light and the Pranas), shining in all gods – yea, we have reached that highest light.

 

 

 

 

You are not only ignorant. You are naïve. You are falsifier of sacred literature.

 

[Guest guest]

My sources translate the upanishads in the way i have posted. If you can get the sanskrit words then maybe u can prove the translations you have got are correct.

 

Any way, Gopala Tapani Upanishad remains and, also, none of your quotes show Shiva to be the ruler of the spiritual world or proprietor of transcendental abode. They don't describe him as unlimited and infinite. Whereas I have demonstrated from the Puranas quotes saying Krishna to be all those things - coming from Lord Shiva's own statements.

 

If you fail to accept the Puranas - even Bhagavad Purana, and also Bhagavad Gita, then that is your own problem. I have never heard of any acharya coming from a bona fide disciplic succession ever reject the authenticity of Bhagavad Gita or Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Regardless to say, I can still produce more from the Upanishads to satisfy your prejudice:

 

Atharva Veda - Gopala tapani Upanishad 1.24:

 

"He who existed before the creation of Brahma and who enlightened Brahma with Vedic knowledge is Lord Sri Krsna".

 

31. By worshipping Krsna, Shiva became free from illusion, and by chanting this mantra in a solitary place, he attained the Lord.

 

36. By chanting this mantra Shiva entered Lord Visnu’s eternal spiritual abode.

 

 

 

Narayana Upanishad 1:

 

"From Narayana, Brahma was born. Narayana created the eleven Rudras."

 

 

Atharva Veda, Maha Upanishad 1:

 

"Only Narayana existed in the beginning, when niether Brahma nor Shiva existed."

 

 

The Narayana Upanisad (4) also states, "Devaki's son [Krsna] is the Supreme Lord."

 

Krsna Himself states in the Moksa-dharma, "I created the Prajapatis and the Rudras. They do not have complete knowledge of Me because they are covered by My illusory energy."

[Guest guest]

***************My sources translate the upanishads in the way i have posted.********************

 

 

May be. It is a pity, however.

 

 

 

My sources however, read and teach both Rudra Upanishad and Gopala Tapaniya. They say Pasupati (controller of souls) and Gopala (controller of Gopas) are one. Different people, attached to different values, require different picturisation to awake their spirituality --- which finally is non-attachment.

 

 

They preach Bhagavata and Maha Shiv Puran. They teach Gita and Rudram.

 

 

They know and teach that the eternal truth is one consciousness and its movement. All appearances –- Universes and the Gods result from the movement of the consciousness only. Due to the movement and due to the appearances no real change takes place in consciousness. All appearances are only relatively true with respect to the absolute truth -- the consciousness. They teach from Yoga Vashista, where Vashshta teaches Rama. Therein, Shiva teaches Vashista also. Shiva says: “Neither Rudra, nor Vishnu, and nor Brahma is God. Lord is That where from we appear and That can be called as our father and who is variously called Brahman, Self, I, or Lord Lord Shiva”. They also teach that a purusha (human), who gives control of his ego – the cognition, desire etc. to the Self, becomes That.

 

 

In their Parayana, shlokas are recited where Lakshmi gives power to Shiva and at the same time they also recite shlokas where every other God bows to Rudra.

 

In Bhagavata, Chitraketu - , derided the love play of the consciousness and its movement (so called love making of Shiva and Parvati in front of the Sidhhas) taking the appearance as true and not knowing the real truth. And Shiva? He just laughed and laughed. Why?

 

 

Read the essence and not the words. Words are material but the essence is Brahman.

 

Since, I know you will not open up to other literature, so leave it at that. I know your position and you know mine. That is enough.

 

One day, like George Harrison at the end did, you will also sing a song of Uma-Mahesvara. There is no way out.

 

There is no way out without knowing Lord Rudra.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krishna & Om Namo Shivaya,

 

 

"My sources however, read and teach both Rudra Upanishad and Gopala Tapaniya. They say Pasupati (controller of souls) and Gopala (controller of Gopas) are one."

 

For this, I would point to Bhagavad Gita:

 

BG 11.43: Arjuna said: No one is equal to You, nor can anyone be one with You.

 

 

 

 

"There is no way out without knowing Lord Rudra."

 

Of course, I am striving to develop love for Rudra, as Shiva says, higher then developing love for and serving God is to serve and love his devotees. There is no greater devotee of Krsna in the three worlds then Lord Shiva.

 

Hare Krishna

 

Om Namo Shivaya

 

[Guest guest]

"And after enjoying all the pleasures he enters, giving up the body, into union with Siva and does not return – and does not return.

 

OM! May Brahman protect us (the Guru and Sishya) both!"

 

 

Into union with Shiva, means union with Brahman - it is equivalent ot impersonal liberation, or void. There is no doubt that a devotee of Shiva can acheive this. But the shastra celarly states that one does not lose individuality in the ultimate goal. One is sat-cit-ananda vigrahah, enjoying with the Supreme Lord.

 

[Guest guest]

********For this, I would point to Bhagavad Gita:

 

BG 11.43: Arjuna said: No one is equal to You, nor can anyone be one with You.*******************

 

Correct. Knower of Brahman surpasses Brahman. Krishna is Brahma Gyani as shown to have been taught so in Chandogya Up.

 

III-xvii-6: Ghora Angirasa expounded this well-known doctrine to Devaki’s son Krishna and said, ‘Such a knower should, at the time of death, repeat this triad – "Thou art the imperishable, Thou art unchangeable, Thou art the subtle essence of Prana". (On hearing the above) he became thirstless. There are these two Rik stanzas in regard to this.

 

III-xvii-7: (Those knowers of Brahman who have purified their mind through the withdrawal of the senses and other means like Brahmacharya) see everywhere (the day – like the supreme light) of the ancient One who is the seed of the universe, (the light that shines in the Effulgent Brahman). May we, too having perceived the highest light which dispels darkness, reach it. Having perceived the highest light in our own heart we have reached that highest light, which is the dispeller (of water, rays of light and the Pranas), shining in all gods – yea, we have reached that highest light.

 

 

 

***********"There is no way out without knowing Lord Rudra."

 

Of course, I am striving to develop love for Rudra, as Shiva says, higher then developing love for and serving God is to serve and love his devotees. There is no greater devotee of Krsna in the three worlds then Lord Shiva.***********

 

 

Correct. Since Shiva also loves His devotee.

 

 

From Bhgavatam

 

 

Kansa had sent a cruel ogress Pootana to kill all the newly born babies in his kingdom. ----------. Lord Krishna was only six days old then.

 

 

Pootana's breasts were filled with poison. Pootana took the baby to secluded place and began to breast feed him. Lord Krishna prayed to Lord Shiva who came to stay in His throat and drank all the poison from the milk.

 

 

 

Lord Krishna prayed to Lord Shiva who came to stay in His throat and drank all the poison from the milk.

 

 

From The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva

Section XIV

 

Krishna -16000 Wives

 

The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….

 

The puissant Sankara then, devoted to the good of the universe, looked at the goddess Uma and the lord of the celestials and myself also, and thus spoke unto me":

"We know, O Krishna, that Thou, O slayer of foes, art filled with the greatest devotion towards us. Do what is for Thy good. My love and affection for Thee is very great. Do Thou ask for eight boons. I shall verily give them unto Thee. O Krishna, O best of all persons, tell me what they are, O chief of the Yadavas. Name what Thou wishest. However difficult of attainment they be, Thou shalt have them still".

 

The blessed Krishna said: "Bowing my head with great joy unto that mass of energy and effulgence, I said these words unto that great Deity, with a heart filled with gladness, -firmness in virtue, the slaughter of foes in battle, the highest fame, the greatest might, devotion to Yoga, Thy adjacence, and hundreds upon hundreds of children- these are the boons I solicit of Thee".

 

"So be it" said Sankara, repeating the words I had uttered. After this, the Mother of the universe, the upholder of all things, who cleanses all things, who is the spouse of Sarva (Siva), that vast receptacle of penances said with a restrained soul these words unto me:

"The puissant Mahadeva has granted Thee, O sinless one, a son who shall be named Samva. Do Thou take from me also eight boons which Thou choosest. I shall certainly grant them to Thee"

 

Bowing unto her my head, I said unto her:

"I solicit from thee non-anger against the Brahmanas (Brahmins), grace of my father, a hundred sons, the highest enjoyments, love for my family, the grace of my mother, the attainment of tranquillity and peace, and cleverness in every act!"

 

Uma said: "It shall be even so, O Thou that art possessed of prowess and puissance equal to that of a celestial. I never say what is untrue. Thou shalt have sixteen thousand wives. Thy love for them and theirs also for Thee shall be unlimited. From all Thy kinsmen also, Thou shalt receive the highest affection. Thy body too shall be most beautiful. Seven thousand guests will daily feed at Thy palace."

 

Vasudeva continued: "Having thus granted me boons both the god and the goddess disappeared there and then with their Ganas. All these wonderful facts, I related fully to that brahmana of great energy, viz., Upamanyu (from whom I had obtained the Diksha before adoring Mahadeva). Bowing down unto the great God, Upamanyu said these words to me" :

Upamanyu said: "There is no deity like Sarva. There is no end or refuge like Sarva. There is none that can give so many or such high boons. There is none that equals him in battle."

 

These are mutual things. You know.

 

Only, the literature that we supply are not falsified

 

[Guest guest]

*********Re: shastra has to be the basis *************

 

Re: shastra has to be the basis

[Guest guest]

Be Happy with what Lord has decided for you. You are destined for repeated deaths.

 

 

This Jiva also will be happy with His plan.

 

Falsified Shashtra, however, is work of Shiva only --- to delude.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna & Om Namo Shivaya

 

"Having thus granted me boons"

 

...Shiva grants boons for his devotees. I agree.

 

...Krishna gives personal liberation to his devotees.

 

Specific points:

 

The reason I insist is because there is so much shastric evidence that Krishna is Supreme, even in relation to Shiva. There are rarely any quotes describing Shiva superior to Krishna.

 

1) Srimad Bhagavatam: Shiva says Krishna is the only original person, the only form that can satisfy a devotee, and Shiva says he had to pray to Krishna to become free from illusion and to enable him and Brahma to create material manifestation.

 

2) Maha Narayana Upanishad: says in the beginning, before Brahma and Shiva, only Narayana existed.

 

3) Gopal Tapaniya Upanishad: specific that Krishna created Shiva, Krishna says Shiva is covered by his illusory energy, and it is described that Shiva prayed to Krishna to become free from illusion.

 

4) Padma Purana: Shiva tells Parvati that the highest form to worship is Krsna, and he specifically says that it is higher to serve Shiva, only if you serve him in order to please Krishna.

 

If you can find parralel shastra where Krishna is saying so clearly about Shiva supremacy then we can carry on...

 

Hare Krishna & Om Namo Shivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

 

 

Re

(ok, but i shall pray to the source of Shiva, Krishna as the Supreme Lord. Not the other way round. if you want to do the more indirect process, that's your choice.)

 

It is absolutely your choice, since the supreme Brahman is one without a second my worship to either one goes to the same he/she.

 

 

 

Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; He, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of (all) beings. (13.17)"

 

Re

(Yes, Krishna is the original - the others are divided appearances)

See you twist again he says the Brahman is undivided yet appears divided. Get the point?

 

 

Re

 

(Supreme Brahman has no added ingredient. Curd has no added ingredient from milk. it is a transformation.)

 

 

You refuse to see the point, as I said Brahman is one, but we all accept there are thousands of forms, as to how the same supreme Brahman in different forms, which is a real apparent different and yet is the same supreme, the example is given is of milk and curd made from the same ingredient yet different. It is not as if when you take milk and make yogurt the original milk has transformed to milk and the milk has lost its identity.

 

Re

(Now Shiva is the transformation. Krishna is the transformer. Shiva is the result of the transformation. Krishna is the source of the transformation.)

 

If you are acting you would have so many character transformations, that do not mean you as an actor have changed.

 

 

Re

(No shiva bhakta will say shiva tattva is same as vishnu tattva.)

 

Because they know the truth, yet their final destination is Siva lok the supreme Brahman.

 

Re

(saivites will also agree that shiva tattva is separate. God has multifarious energies, of which there are three major categories. Spiritual energy - Krishna and his personal expansions. Marginal energy - souls including Shiva, the highest of souls in the marginal energy. Finally, material energy - which is inanimate.)

 

This merit no further discussion, since you have a goal to equate Lord Shiva as a Jiva, I shell cease my discussion with you now, unfortunately because you post as a guest I would never know it is you I am discussion with, so in this matter I do not have a choice.

 

If you can contemplate on the fact that Lord Shiva has never taken Birth let alone dieing anywhere, you would not have made a statement like yours.

 

Styam Shivam Sunderam.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

You have done a wonderful service in exposing the lies, that goes around, this is a result of someone confined to narrow view of the supreme, discounting any other possibilities, despite so much evidence there is in this context.

 

This could be another lie. He quotes BG 11.43: Arjuna said: No one is equal to You, nor can anyone be one with You.

Here is the soka

pitasi lokasya caracarasya

tvam asya pujyas ca gurur gariyan

na tvat-samo 'sty abhyadhikah kuto 'nyo

loka-traye 'py apratima-prabhava

 

You are the father of this animate and inanimate world, and the greatest guru to be worshipped. No one is even equal to You in the three worlds; how can there be one greater than You? O Being of Incomparable Glory. (11.43)

 

Even I with my limited knowledge of Sanskrit i read this as nor can anyone be greater then you?

Where does it mention anything about being one with you?

 

If we read this slok(11.38) in context, then the oneness has to apply, or else how can so many forms be separate from the supreme?

You are the primal God, the most ancient Person. You are the ultimate resort of all the universe. You are the knower, the object of knowledge, and the supreme abode. The entire universe is pervaded by You, O Lord of the infinite form. (11.38)

 

 

 

This is one of his answer

“Note: yes supreme Krishna has become Shiva to rule the material manifestation”

 

He called Shiva a jiva, in his answer to my post, therefore using his statement above Krishna has become a jiva, who is blaspheming now?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

The reason I insist is because there is so much shastric evidence that Krishna is Supreme, even in relation to Shiva. There are rarely any quotes describing Shiva superior to Krishna.

 

1) Srimad Bhagavatam: Shiva says Krishna is the only original person, the only form that can satisfy a devotee, and Shiva says he had to pray to Krishna to become free from illusion and to enable him and Brahma to create material manifestation.

 

2) Maha Narayana Upanishad: says in the beginning, before Brahma and Shiva, only Narayana existed.

 

3) Gopal Tapaniya Upanishad: specific that Krishna created Shiva, Krishna says Shiva is covered by his illusory energy, and it is described that Shiva prayed to Krishna to become free from illusion.

 

4) Padma Purana: Shiva tells Parvati that the highest form to worship is Krsna, and he specifically says that it is higher to serve Shiva, only if you serve him in order to please Krishna.

 

If you can find parralel shastra where Krishna is saying so clearly about Shiva supremacy then we can carry on...

 

Hare Krishna & Om Namo Shivaya

 

 

[Guest guest]

why do u question religion. Doesnt the Bhagvad Gita say that it is a sin to question any religion.

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya,

 

Religion is anything that helps develop love for God.

 

Serving Lord Shiva because he is the greatest Vaishnav is the topmost religion, since Lord Shiva will mercifully help us develop love for Krishna accordingly.

 

Worshipping Lord Shiva as the source of all spiritual and material worlds is not true religion, since the Vedas do not state that Shiva is the source of the spiritual dimension.

 

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

[Guest guest]

Only immortals, take gifts from churning the ocean. The One Lord did not take anything but the poison.

 

 

Those who do not see the essence are doomed to repeated births. Those who understand get moist eyes.

 

 

From Bhagavatam

 

19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Supreme Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

 

 

 

Please note: 19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

 

 

Repeat: all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva].

 

 

I ask: Why Lord Vishnu—the Supreme God Head approached SadaSiva to drink Halahal?

 

 

Read below more

 

Churning of the Ocean

 

17. The Supreme Lord appeared like a blackish cloud. He was dressed with yellow garments, His earrings shone on His ears like lightning, and His hair spread over His shoulders. He wore a garland of flowers, and His eyes were pinkish. With His strong, glorious arms, which award fearlessness throughout the universe, He took hold of Vasuki and began churning the ocean, using Mandara Mountain as a churning rod. When engaged in this way, the Lord appeared like a beautifully situated mountain named Indranila.

 

18. The fish, sharks, tortoises and snakes were most agitated and perturbed. The entire ocean became turbulent, and even the large aquatic animals like whales, water elephants, crocodiles and timingila fish [large whales that can swallow small whales] came to the surface. While the ocean was being churned in this way, it first produced a fiercely dangerous poison called halahala.

 

 

19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

 

 

 

Please note: 19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

 

 

Repeat: all the demigods, along with the Supreme Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva].

 

 

I ask: Why Lord Vishnu—the Supreme God Head approached SadaSiva to drink Halahal?

 

 

 

21. The prajapatis said: O greatest of all gods, Mahadeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

 

 

22. O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

 

 

Please note: Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you,

 

 

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

 

 

24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

 

 

25. O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [rta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om, which consists of three letters a-u-m.

 

 

26. O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varuna, master of the waters, is your tongue.

 

 

27. O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head.

 

 

 

28. O lord, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Gayatri are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart.

 

 

29. O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Siva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma.

 

 

Please note: Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Siva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma.

 

 

30. O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature--goodness, passion and ignorance--are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance.

 

 

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

 

Please note: the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

 

Repeat: even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

 

 

32. When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Daksa-yajna, Tripurasura and the kalakuta poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you.

 

 

33. Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

 

 

 

34. Even personalities like Lord Brahma and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the moving and nonmoving creation. Since no one can understand you in truth, how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible.

 

 

35. O greatest of all rulers, your actual identity is impossible for us to understand. As far as we can see, your presence brings flourishing happiness to everyone. Beyond this, no one can appreciate your activities. We can see this much, and nothing more.

 

 

Please note: O greatest of all rulers, your actual identity is impossible for us to understand. As far as we can see, your presence brings flourishing happiness to everyone. Beyond this, no one can appreciate your activities. We can see this much, and nothing more.

 

 

And please note all the time Lord Vishnu was also there.

 

19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

 

 

 

Why: The One Lord did not take anything but the poison?

 

[Guest guest]

That you are a liar was proven above. That you are shameless is also evident.

 

 

In Chandogya, Krishna is taught Brahma Gyana. Does the Supreme Lord need to be taught? Where Shiva is taught Brahma Gyan?

 

 

Chandogya Upanishad (3.17.6-7

 

III-xvii-6: Ghora Angirasa expounded this well-known doctrine to Devaki’s son Krishna and said, ‘Such a knower should, at the time of death, repeat this triad – "Thou art the imperishable, Thou art unchangeable, Thou art the subtle essence of Prana". (On hearing the above) he became thirstless. There are these two Rik stanzas in regard to this.

 

III-xvii-7: (Those knowers of Brahman who have purified their mind through the withdrawal of the senses and other means like Brahmacharya) see everywhere (the day – like the supreme light) of the ancient One who is the seed of the universe, (the light that shines in the Effulgent Brahman). May we, too having perceived the highest light which dispels darkness, reach it. Having perceived the highest light in our own heart we have reached that highest light, which is the dispeller (of water, rays of light and the Pranas), shining in all gods – yea, we have reached that highest light.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Below there is another lie. Are you really shameless?

 

 

 

*********************2) Maha Narayana Upanishad: says in the beginning, before Brahma and Shiva, only Narayana existed.************************************

 

 

 

Where is this stated? You are again falsifying Maha Narayana Upanishad, wherein Agni, Indra, Visnu, Aditi, Naryana – all are described as Brahman:

 

 

I-7: That alone is Fire: That is Air; That is Sun; That verily is Moon; That alone is shining Stars and Ambrosia. That is Food; That is Water and He is the Lord of creatures.

 

 

I-70: The Supreme represented as the ocean has overflown to the whole creation. --------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) and therefore superior and elevated like a peak and affording protection. The Jiva who is his abode grows to be infinite. He is the Lord who delights the individual souls by guiding according to their deeds and conferring on them fruits of their actions.

 

 

II-2: I take refuge in Her, the Goddess Durga, who is fiery in lustre and radiant with ardency, who is the Power belonging to the Supreme who manifests Himself manifoldly, who is the Power residing in actions and their fruits rendering them efficacious (or the Power that is supplicated to by the devotees for the fruition of their work). O Thou Goddess skilled in saving. Thou takest us across difficulties excellently well. Our salutations to Thee.

 

 

VIII-1: The Supreme Being, Indra, who is the most excellent Pranava taught in the Vedas, who ensouls the entire universe, who leads the collection of Vedic utterances in Gayatri and other metres standing in their beginning, who is capable of being attained by the worshippers and who is the first in the causal link, taught the contemplative sages the sacred wisdom of the Upanishad, Himself being the subject-matter of them, in order to strengthen them with the power of knowledge. I salute the gods for removing the obstacles in my path to illumination. For the same I also reverence the Manes. The triple regions of Bhuh, Bhuvah and Suvah and the entire Veda are comprised in Om.

 

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest Self. Narayana is the supreme Light. Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

 

 

XV-2: Aditya, the supreme cause of the universe, is the giver of light and water and is the source of all energy. He is denoted by the syllable Om. That form of the sun is Brahman. That is the pervading cause of all. That is water, fire, flavour and ambrosia. The three Vyahritis representing the three worlds and the Pranava representing the cause of the universe denote that Brahman.

 

Thus by these three the threefold knowledge alone shines. He who is within the sun is the Golden Person

 

 

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which is representative of soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

 

 

(then description of all 22 Lingas appear – one may read the excerpts above)

 

-----------------

 

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of all. The universe the created beings and whatever there is manifoldly and profusely created in the past and in the present in the form of the world, all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

 

---------

 

LXVIII-1: Om that is Brahman. Om that is Vayu. Om that is the finite self. Om that is the Supreme Truth. Om that is all. Om that is the multitude of citadels 9the bodies of creatures). Salutations to Him.

 

 

LXXIV-1: O Rudra, thou art the binding knot of the breaths and the organs of senses functioning in the body. Enter me as the end-maker of sorrows and increase and protect me by that food which I have taken in.

 

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

 

 

 

Note: “We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of all.”

 

 

 

You are a falsifier.

[Guest guest]

Sri Brahma Samhita (which you only referred to).

 

 

Book 1 TEXT 8

 

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

 

 

 

 

Devi is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hari – the Lord of the Universe. And She – the regulator (Niyati) is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of supreme Lord Hareh.

 

 

 

Now, friend I ask you: Which person will entrust one’s potency -- the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition (Devi in short) to another man called Saktiman?

 

[Guest guest]

*****************The reason I insist is because there is so much shastric evidence that Krishna is Supreme, even in relation to Shiva. There are rarely any quotes describing Shiva superior to Krishna.*****************

 

 

 

There is no Krishna in Rig Veda. Krishna is shown to be an incarnation of Lord Vishnu in Bhagavatam. How many references do you want?

 

 

 

Rig Veda 7.46.2

 

 

To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

 

 

Note: Self dependent God. What does it mean?

 

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

e The mole is thy beast, O Rudra; rejoice in it.

 

 

Note: Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Note: Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Note: Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

 

 

 

Rig Veda Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas

 

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

---------

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

 

 

 

Note: Visnu deserves and merits praise on account of Rudra

 

 

Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.

 

 

1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds. He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.

 

20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways, With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.

 

 

Note: Indra is the mind of Rudra.

(And since you do not know, Visnu is gati of Rudra)

 

 

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.

 

 

 

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

28 ----------------------

 

 

Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters. Yes, Rudra’s Mind only creates Visnu.

 

 

 

 

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

 

2 -----

 

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

-------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.

 

1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong.

 

2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might

 

 

 

Note: Visnu extols and lauds majesty of Indra who is the mind of Rudra

 

Visnu's movement (swiftness is on account of Indra's energy).

 

Om Namah Sivayya.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

**************If you can find parralel shastra where

Krishna is saying so clearly about Shiva supremacy then we can carry on...*******************************

 

 

You are much bothered about supremacy, which is not our botheration.

 

If MahaVishnu is the source of all, then Hew is all -- He is the Supreme. There is no second.

 

We do not argue about supremacy. We place facts, as recorded in Vedas by Lord Vishnu Himself.

 

However, as you insist on parallel literature below are some.

 

 

Mahabharata

 

After loosing their whole kingdom to Duryodhan in the gamble, Pandavas went to the dwait forest accompanied by Draupadi. They started living in a place which was donated by Velotra Sun.

Duryodhan instigated sage Durvasa to torment the Pandavas. Sage Durvasa went to the place where Pandavas were staying, accompanied by thousands of his disciples. He demanded food from the Pandavas. How could have the Pandavas satiated from the hunger of thousands of people. Lord Krishna came to their rescue and saved them from being disagraced. As a result Durvasa and his disciples went back satisfied.

Lord Krishna advised the Pandavas to worship lord Shiva, but they neglected that advice. As a result their sufferings increased in magnitude

 

UMA SAMHITA of Shiv Mahapuran

 

CONVERSATION BETWEEN KRISHNA & UPAMANYU

Once, Lord Krishna went to Kailash mountain to do penance with the desire of having a son. He found Maharishi Upamanyu engrossed in his meditation. He told Upamanyu about his desire and requested him to describe about the greatness of lord Shiva.

Upamanu described about his own experience when he had divine glimpses of lord Shiva who was meditating

-------=---------------------

Sage Upamanyu told Krishna he must worship lord Shiva if he was desirous of a son.

SRI KRISHNA DOES PENANCE

Sri Krishna then proceeded to do his penance after getting initiated by Upamanyu with the mantra - Om Namah Shivay. He did a tremendous penance for fifteen months by standing on his toe. In the sixteenth month lord Shiva and Parvati appeared before him after being pleased by his penance. Lord Shiva expressed his desire to bless Krishna. Krishna requested eight boons from the Supreme Lord. 1) May his intelligence always remain inclined towards religiousness. 2) May he attain immortal fame, 3) May he has his abode in Shiva's proximity, 4) May his faith and devotion in Shiva be unswerving, 5) May he have ten valiant sons, 6) May he be victorious against his enemies, 7) May all his enemies be destroyed and 8) May be dear to all the yogis. After receiving eight boons from Lord Shiva, Krishna demanded one boon from goddess Parvati May he always be in the service of his parents and the brahmins. Sri Krishna then went back to Upamanyu and narrated the whole story. At last he returned to Dwarka.

 

Note: Same story is repeated in Mahabharata

 

Linga Puran

 

Sri Krishna had 16108 Queens among whom Rukmini was dearest. He did an austere penance to please Lord Lord Shiva as the result of which He was blessed with many sons like Charudeshna, Sucharu, Pradyumna etc. He also had a son named Saamb from Jaambawati. Lord Krishna left for heavenly abode after enjoying a long life of 120 years. He had destroyed His whole clan before leaving His mortal body. A hunter named Jara who mistook him to be a deer killed him. Due to the curse of Ashtavakra, Sri Krishna's wives had been abducted by the dacoits.

 

Shiv Mahapuran

"During the initial period of 'Svet Varah Kalp'. Six prominent sages collected near Triveni and started debating as to who was the greatest deity, among Brahma Vishnu and Mahesh. Their debate remained inconclusive, so they went to lord Brahma to seek the answer.

Lord Brahma told them:-

"O revered Sages! The source of Vishnu, Rudra all the deities including myself and all the other creations is none other Mahadev. Union with the Shiva should be the objective of a man to attain that objective. Listening to the qualities of Lord Shiva, singing devotional songs in his praise and contemplating on him are the greatest means, which help to unite with Shiva."

 

-------------------------

Nandikeshwarji narrates the tale of battle between Lord Brahma and Lord Vishnu.

"Once while travelling lord Brahma reached the abode of Lord Vishnu. ------- Very soon, Verbal dual erupted between them. It became so severe that a battle was fought between them, which continued for very long time. -----------.

 

(ANALSTAMBH - THE PILLAR OF FIRE)

---------------. Fearing the destruction, which these deadly weapons might have caused, Lord Shiva manifested himself in the form of 'Analstamba' (pillar of fire) between them. -------------.

"Brahmaji and Vishnuji were very surprised to see the pillar of fire, which was so enormous in size that it reached the sky and penetrated down the earth. Vishnuji transformed himself into a boar and went to the 'Patal' (nether world) to find the base of that 'Pillar of fire'. But he was unsuccessful in his attempt and came back.

Similarly Brahmaji transformed himself into a swan and flew up in the sky to find its limit. While going through the aerial route he met a withered 'Ketaki' flowers, which had still some freshness and fragrance left in it."

"Lord Shiva smiled at the futile attempts of Shri Brahmaji and Vishnuji. --------

(CONSECRATION OF MAHESHWAR)

Lord Vishnu and Brahma made salutations to lord Shiva and offered him a seat. They then worshipped him. ------------.

 

------------------------

SHIVA TAKES INCARNATION AS SHARABH

While describing about the incarnation of Sharabh Sutji told sages-

"When Vishnuji took his incarnation of Nrisimha to kill the demon king –Hiranyakashipu, his anger could not be subdued even after the killing of Hiranyakashipu. -------------

 

"All the deities went to lord Shiva and requested to him to cool down Vishnu's anger. Lord Shiva then sent Bhairav and Veerbhadra to Nrisimha. ----------- Right then Lord Shiva appeared in his most devastating form. ----------- Lord Vishnu was so frightened that he became unconscious."

 

"After regarding his consciousness Lord Nrisimha appeared in his form of Lord Vishnu and eulogized Shiva, which made lord Shiva very pleased. Lord Shiva wore the head of Nrisimha with the garland of skull in his neck. The remaining body was carried by Veerbhadra and abandoned at a mountain."

 

 

SHIVA'S INCARNATION AS VRISHABH

 

During his stay in the Netherland, many sons were born to Lord Vishnu, who were very wicked and cruel. These sons of lord Vishnu started tormenting the inhabitants of all the three world.

-------------

 

Lord Shiva went to the Netherworld in the form of a Ox (Vrishabh). He killed all the sons of lord Vishnu with his sharp horns. ---------------- Ultimately lord Vishnu was able to recognise him. He eulogized lord Shiva.

 

 

Time scale

 

A Vishnu day is equivalent to the whole life span of Brahma. The whole life span of Vishnu is equivalent to a day of 'Rudra'. The whole life span of Rudra is equivalent to a day of lord Shiva. In the whole life of lord Shiva five lakh and four thousand numbers of Rudras come and go.

 

Note: This is also described in Mahabharata and Vasistam.

 

 

ACCQUIREMENT OF SHIVALINGAS BY THE DEITIES

 

Once, Brahmaji went to 'Kshirsagar' (the abode of Vishnu) accompanied by the deities and asked lord Vishnu how a man could be liberated from his sorrows. Lord Vishnu told them that this objective could be met b worshipping Shiva-Linga.

-------------------------

 

LORD VISHNU PREACHES DAKSHA (during Daksha yagna)

 

Daksha then prayed to lord Vishnu to rescue him from the imminent wrath of lord Shiva. Lord Vishnu preached Daksha and said-

 

"Daksha! Since you have committed the greatest sin by dishonouring Shiva and Sati. Even I can not prevent the calamities which you are certain to face."

---------------

 

DAKSHA GETS HIS HEAD SEVERED

 

A terrible battle was fought between the armies of Veerbhadra and the deities. The deities got defeated and fled away. They went to lord Vishnu and sought his help.

 

Lord Vishnu decided to fight on the side of the deities.

The battle recommenced for the second time. Lord Vishnu having a dual fight with Veerbhadra and the deities were fighting against his army.

 

Suddenly everybody heard a heavenly voice which said that Veerbhadra was invincible. Hearing this, Lord Vishnu and Brahmaji went to their respective abodes.

 

Daksha ran for his life and hid himself behind the attar where the yagya was being performed. But Veerbhadra pulled him out from there and severed his head. He then threw his head in the agni-kunda. After this he returned back to Kailash accompanies by his army.

------------------------------

 

CONTENTION BETWEEN KSHUVA & DADHICHI

 

Narad, who was listening to the divine tales of Shiva with rapt attention, was very curious to know about the reasons why lord Vishnu attended a yagya where Shiva was not invited and why did he fight a battle against veerbhadra despite knowing about his invincibility.

Lord Brahma told him that all this happened due to the curse of Sage Dadhichi-

------------

---------------

King Kshuva did a tremendous penance to please lord Vishnu. Vishnu revealed to him that Dadhichi had become immortal because of the blessings of lord Shiva, but assured him that he would certainly help him in defeating Dadhichi.

 

BATTLE BETWEEN VISHNU & DADHICHI

 

Lord Vishnu then visited the hermitage of Sage Dadhichi, disguised as a brahmin. On being asked by Dadhichi about the purpose of his arrival, he said that he had come with a desire of a boon on his heart.

 

Sage Dadhichi, by his yogic power came to know about the real identity of a 'Brahmin'. He told that he had been caught. Lord Vishnu was ashamed.

 

Lord Vishnu then went back to Kshuva and instructed him to go to sage Dadhichi and act as if he had accepted his superiority.

 

"Kshuva went to sage Dadhichi and did as he was instructed to do, but Dadhichi did not believe his words. Now lord Vishnu became angry and tried to kill him by his sudarshan chakra, but he was not successful, as the chakra, which was given to him by lord Shiva himself, was not willing to harm a devotee of Shiva.

 

"Lord Vishnu then tried to kill Dadhichi by shooting volley of arrows. The deities too attacked with their weapon. Sage Dadhichi threw a handful of Kusha grass, initiated with mantras towards them, which destroyed all the weapons of the deities."

 

"In the meantime lord Brahma arrived on the scene accompanies by Kshuva. He told the deities that it was futile to fight with Dadhichi as he was invincible, due to the boon given by lord Shiva,"

 

"Ultimately King Kshuva begged his forgiveness for his offence. Dahichi forgave him but cursed Vishnu including all the deities that they would be burnt to ashes by the wrath of Rudra."

 

"This was the reason why all the deities and lord Vishnu attended the yagnya, organised by Daksha and got defeated by Veerbhadra."

 

 

 

You may carry on alone. It is irreligious to argue, especially with Puranas.

 

 

Stick to the Vedas, if you want.

[imported_servegod]

 

 

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

 

"Only immortals, take gifts from churning the ocean. The One Lord did not take anything but the poison."

 

When have i ever suggested Lord Shiva is not immortal?

 

 

 

"I ask: Why Lord Vishnu—the Supreme God Head approached SadaSiva to drink Halahal?"

 

To glorify his devotee.

 

 

 

"Please note: Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you"

 

One can be a Vaishnava and also surrender unto Lord Shiva, since he is the greatest of Vaishnavas - no problem.

 

 

"Please note: Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Siva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma."

 

why say celebrated as Lord Shiva? Why not your lordship Shiva? The reason: The Supreme Truth (Vishnu) who is Paramatma is in this particular verse being celebrated as Lord Shiva, the direct representative of Lord Vishnu. Just like one can treat the spiritual master as god since he is the authorised representative.

 

 

 

 

"Please note: the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra."

 

 

Exactly, this is in reference to the impersonal Brahman effulgence. I admit that Lord Shiva's devotees can reach a form of impersonal liberation.

 

 

"Please note: O greatest of all rulers, your actual identity is impossible for us to understand. As far as we can see, your presence brings flourishing happiness to everyone. Beyond this, no one can appreciate your activities. We can see this much, and nothing more.

 

 

And please note all the time Lord Vishnu was also there. "

 

 

 

The actual identity of Lord Shiva is impossible to understand - that does not neccesarily mean he is the source of the spiritual dimension and all unmanifest things.

 

 

 

 

"Why: The One Lord did not take anything but the poison?"

 

 

Lord Shiva took the poison as service to Lord Vishnu. Lord Vishnu allowed it to glorify his devotee. Even if you don't accept this commentary, it still doesn't prove that Lord Shiva is the source of the spiritual dimension or the unmanifest beings.

 

 

 

It's simple really, if Lord Shiva says that Krishna is the only form, the highest form to be worshipped, the only original person etc, then we must accept Lord Shiva's statement.

 

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

[imported_servegod]

 

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

 

 

"In Chandogya, Krishna is taught Brahma Gyana. Does the Supreme Lord need to be taught? Where Shiva is taught Brahma Gyan?"

 

 

Krishna came down and showed people how to become self-realized, by submissively enquiring from one's Spiritual master.

Does the Supreme Lord mention another to be the highest form to worship, the only original person? Like Lord Shiva does in the Padma Purana and the Srimad Bhagavatam? Does the Supreme Lord say he became free from illusion by praying to Krishna, like Lord Shiva says in the Srimad Bhagavatam? How can the Supreme Lord ever be under illusion?

 

 

 

 

"Where is this stated? You are again falsifying Maha Narayana Upanishad, wherein Agni, Indra, Visnu, Aditi, Naryana – all are described as Brahman."

 

 

I apologise, actually it is from the Maha Upanishad:

 

I-1-4. Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy. From the (desire of) the Paramatman, the Yajnastoma (hymn known as Avyakta) is said to have arisen.

 

So Narayana existed before Shiva and Brahma - u agree? Or r u gonna dodge that bullet?!?

 

 

 

 

"Note: “We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of all.” "

 

 

 

 

Rudra is the light and Soul of all - yet still we have not heard any Vedic shastra stating that Krsna was ever under illusion, yet Lord Shiva clearly says:

 

SB 4.24.73: We chanted these prayers in praise of Krsna and became completely free from all ignorance. Thus we were able to create different types of living entities.

 

 

Does the Supreme Lord have to become free from ignorance?

 

No. Therefore Lord Shiva is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Lord Shiva is the highest devotee of Krsna, that is why he no longer suffers from ignorance. He is complete in himself, since his devotion is unquestionable.

 

Question: Unless you reckon Lord Shiva is lying in this verse?

 

 

 

 

"You are a falsifier"

 

 

Do not revert to insults, simply answer the question(s) above.

 

 

 

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

[imported_servegod]

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

 

 

Jignasu, you make a lot of points, without answering mine. I have already addressed the majority of your quotes which u feel you have to repetitively bring up.

 

I shall ask you the same question i asked guest-:

 

In Srimad Bhagavatam canto 4.24.73, Lord Shiva states that he became free from ignorance by praying to Krsna.

 

Now either:

 

a) you think that the Supreme Lord can be affected by ignorance

 

or

 

b) you are calling Lord Shiva a liar when he says he had to pray to Krsna to become free from ignorance

 

 

 

 

Also, why do you continue to quote from the Shiva and Linga Puranas, when Shiva specifically states in Padma Purana that Shiva and Linga Puranas are in the mode of ignorance?

 

Do you think Lord Shiva is lying again when he states that?

 

Do you think Lord Shiva lies to his own wife, Parvati, in the Padma Purana when he tells her that Lord Krsna is the highest form to worship?

 

Does Lord Shiva lie to Parvati in the Padma Purana when he says that one should serve Shiva only because Shiva is the devotee of Krsna?

 

 

 

In any case, the Shiva Purana and Linga Purana quotes you have brought up do not show that:

 

 

a) Krishna is subordinate to Shiva

 

or that

 

b) Shiva is equal to Krishna.

 

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

[imported_servegod]

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

 

ok, lets stick to the Vedas.

 

Maha Upanishad:

 

- Narayana was all that existed before Shiva and Brahma.

 

Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad:

 

- Shiva became free from illusion by praying to Krishna.

- Shiva is covered by Krishna's illusory energy.

 

 

The Upanishads never mention Shiva to be superior to Krishna...in fact above quotes show that they describe Krishna to be superior to Shiva

 

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(Ganeshprasad, I am the one you were debating with about Shiva and Krsna. This is the first post I have submitted in this thread, so don't confuse...)(this is from another thread)

 

Do you blame me, it is difficult to keep up with so many guests, without any Id, and it is hard to tell who one is debating with.

 

 

 

 

Re

(And to clear up:

Vishnu Tattva - Krishna and avatars of Vishnu (spiritual, does not engage in illusory energy)

Shiva Tattva - Shiva (spiritual, but engages with illusory energy or shakti)

Jiva Tattva - souls (spiritual, but covered by illusory energy)

 

 

You have tried to clear up in response to this statement of yours (God has multifarious energies, of which there are three major categories. Spiritual energy - Krishna and his personal expansions. Marginal energy - souls including Shiva, the highest of souls in the marginal energy. Finally, material energy - which is inanimate.)

 

 

I am afraid you have cleared up nothing, all this gradation is your speculation.

Your statement marginal energy- souls including Shiva, means Shiva is a jiva.

That is blasphemy

 

Even if you apply the Brahma shamita statement that Krishna transforms him self to Sambhu, none of your above statement makes sense.

 

You say Krishna is spiritual but does not engage in illusory energy, so tell me how does he come to earth?

 

Lord Shiva spiritual but engages with illusory energy, but of course he is Maya pati, what does this all prove?

 

In your recent statement you are asking why we don’t believe what Lord Shiva says in purans.

I may ask you the same question why don’t you believe when prajapati are prying to lord Shiva, why do you speculate and try put a spin on it to conform with your position?

Or when Lord Brahma prays to Lord Shiva as the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation.

Or This "Vishnu puran 5.33.46

Yo hariH sa ZivaH sakSad yaH zivaH sa svayamM hariH

Ye tayor bhedamAti stahan narakAya bhave nnaraH

Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed.

Any human being mistake both the lord to be different, he/she surely go to hell"

 

How is it when it comes to quoting from purans other then the one which extols the lord who is in mode of goodness, some of you cry foul are you saying Shree Vyasdev did not know what he was writing?

 

Mode of satvik, rajsik and tamsik are the subject matter of the 18 purans, people make their own speculated judgment to suit their position.

 

There are so many flows in your argument this is one of them;

 

Prakrti - Material Energy (illusory energy)

Finally, material energy - which is inanimate.

Inanimate means lifeless, insentient, without life; dead, defunct.

 

Lord is one without a second wise know him by different names.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[imported_servegod]

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

 

 

"Do you blame me, it is difficult to keep up with so many guests, without any Id, and it is hard to tell who one is debating with"

 

 

There is no question of blame. Before I was posting as guest. I am sorry, I had no idea the discussion would go so far. So now I have registered.

 

 

 

"I am afraid you have cleared up nothing, all this gradation is your speculation.

Your statement marginal energy- souls including Shiva, means Shiva is a jiva.

That is blasphemy"

 

 

I apologise, I made a mistake, Shiva has his own tattva. Above marginal, but below spiritual.

 

 

 

"You say Krishna is spiritual but does not engage in illusory energy, so tell me how does he come to earth?"

 

 

The Lord always remains transcendental. He says fools deride me and think I descend in a human form.

 

 

 

"Lord Shiva spiritual but engages with illusory energy, but of course he is Maya pati, what does this all prove?"

 

He engages and unites with shakti (Durga/Parvati etc). Therefore he engages with illusory energy. Also Shiva had to pray to Krishna to become free from illusion, as confirmed by the Upanishads. Which by the way you still choose not to respond to.

 

 

 

"prajapati are prying to lord Shiva, why do you speculate and try put a spin on it to conform with your position?"

 

Once again you ask me to respond for the fourth time to your prajapati quote. As i have said countless times, Shiva is not described in that quote as the only original person.

 

 

 

 

"Or when Lord Brahma prays to Lord Shiva as the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation"

 

Again, I have responded to this already. Brahma prays to Lord Shiva, who is the Supreme Brahman transformed for the work of destruction. There is no spin, since Brahma himself confirms this in Brahma Samhita.

 

 

 

"Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed.

Any human being mistake both the lord to be different, he/she surely go to hell!"

 

We are all constitutive of the same elements (therefore non-different) as the Lord (sat-cit-ananda). That does not mean we are God.

 

 

"some of you cry foul"

 

So Lord Shiva cries foul when he says the Shiva Purana and Linga Purana is in the mode of ignorance? I am crying foul simply for following his instructions?

 

 

"people make their own speculated judgment to suit their position"

 

As I have said, Shiva himself states which puranas are in ignorance - where is the speculation? It is based on Lord Shiva's own shastric statements.

 

 

 

 

And once again, I receive no response to my real questions about Lord Shiva's statements. We are back to square one. If you have so much confidence in your argument, please answer those questions, like I have answered yours. Just because my answers do not satisfy you does not mean you should avoid answering any of mine. At least I have addressed your objections.

 

I think your real annoyance is with the fact that there can be no other meaning to Lord Shiva saying he had to pray to Krishna to become free from ignorance than exactly what he says. There can be no other meaning when it says Narayana existed before Siva and Brahma. There can be no other meaning when Krishna says Shiva is covered by my illusory energy. There can be no other meaning when Shiva says to Parvati that the highest form of worship is that of Krishna. There can be no other meaning. Yet no where have you managed to bring up anything where Krishna is saying that he was ever under the influence of illusion or ignorance. Yet Lord Shiva admits that before praying to Lord Krsna he was under ignorance. Now, for the umpteenth time please answer my question: Do you agree to Lord Shiva's statement that he was freed from ignorance by praying to Krishna? And do you agree that the Supreme Lord could never have been under the influence of ignorance?

 

I suspect I will still get many other comments, without getting a simple yes or no answer from you...

 

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya