Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva

Ganeshprasad · October 28, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(There is no question of blame. Before I was posting as guest. I am sorry, I had no idea the discussion would go so far. So now I have registered.)

Thank you it helps. Is this the first time you have had discussion with me?

Re

(I apologise, I made a mistake, Shiva has his own tattva. Above marginal, but below spiritual. )

Thank you, but you are still wrong trying to degrade his position here is what brahma says;

SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahmā said: My dear Lord Śiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

Please note

And the supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation

Contemplate on supreme Brahman there is nothing beyond that, he is one without a second, wise know him by different names. Do not try and explain this away by some thing else.

Re

(The Lord always remains transcendental. He says fools deride me and think I descend in a human form.)

I do not for a minute think otherwise but fact is he descend to this material world therefore he interacts with it.

Re

(He engages and unites with shakti (Durga/Parvati etc). Therefore he engages with illusory energy.)

These are lords energy and as such he can never be detach from it. He is known as ardhnarishvara. How can the lord be affected by his own energy?

This is what prajapati says in this regard;

SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

He is beyond this material creation he can never be affected by his own energy.

Re

(Also Shiva had to pray to Krishna to become free from illusion, as confirmed by the Upanishads. Which by the way you still choose not to respond to.)

SB 8.7.24: You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, impersonal Brahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

Now when he is self effulgent, parabrahman how can he be under illusion?

Where there is light there is no darkness, have you ever heard of sun covered up by darkness?

Re

(Once again you ask me to respond for the fourth time to your prajapati quote. As i have said countless times, Shiva is not described in that quote as the only original person.)

Are there more then one supreme Brahman?

"Or when Lord Brahma prays to Lord Shiva as the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation"

re

(Again, I have responded to this already. Brahma prays to Lord Shiva, who is the Supreme Brahman transformed for the work of destruction. There is no spin, since Brahma himself confirms this in Brahma Samhita.)

I ask you again is there more then one supreme Brahman?

"Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed.

Any human being mistake both the lord to be different, he/she surely go to hell!"

Re

(We are all constitutive of the same elements (therefore non-different) as the Lord (sat-cit-ananda). That does not mean we are God.)

Are you serious? Are we talking about us? This is about Hari and Hara do not mistake them to be different that is what the statement says.

Re

(So Lord Shiva cries foul when he says the Shiva Purana and Linga Purana is in the mode of ignorance? I am crying foul simply for following his instructions?)

Does he say reject those other purans? Vayasdev wrote those purans does he say reject them? Do you know who recite them and to whom? Contemplate on the names of those purans, who and what are the subject matters, who are those personality that are associated with those gunas and then perhaps one might make a correct conclusion if one has an open mind.

Re

(And once again, I receive no response to my real questions about Lord Shiva's statements. We are back to square one. If you have so much confidence in your argument, please answer those questions, like I have answered yours. Just because my answers do not satisfy you does not mean you should avoid answering any of mine. At least I have addressed your objections.)

I have always answered all your question it is you who always pick and choose.

You also know the reason why I chose not to answer further question is because you called Siva a jiva.

Re

(I think your real annoyance is with the fact that there can be no other meaning to Lord Shiva saying he had to pray to Krishna to become free from ignorance than exactly what he says.)

I have no annoyance about anything, nor do I have any illusion about lord Shiva be under any illusion, he is self effulgence the question does not arise.

Re

( There can be no other meaning when it says Narayana existed before Siva and Brahma.)

Since we are all eternal what to speak of lord shiva, this is a childish argument, at what point of time are you talking about?

It is like saying Newton discovered law of gravity as if to say gravity did not exist before that.

Re

(There can be no other meaning when Krishna says Shiva is covered by my illusory energy.)

Where and when does Krishna says this?

Re

(There can be no other meaning when Shiva says to Parvati that the highest form of worship is that of Krishna.)

Shiva would say that for Krishna, but Krishna would say the same for Shiva.

Re

(Yet no where have you managed to bring up anything where Krishna is saying that he was ever under the influence of illusion or ignorance.)

why would I want to, have I said any where that Krishna is not god?

Re

( Now, for the umpteenth time please answer my question: Do you agree to Lord Shiva's statement that he was freed from ignorance by praying to Krishna?)

simple answer NO.

Re

( And do you agree that the Supreme Lord could never have been under the influence of ignorance?)

Yes, but don’t ever think that he cant act as if he is under the influence of ignorance, just an example, like when Ram cried when mother Sita was abducted.

Re

(I suspect I will still get many other comments, without getting a simple yes or no answer from you...)

Wrong again.

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

Jai Shree Krishna

imported_servegod · October 29, 2004

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

Re: Is this the first time you have had discussion with me?

No. I have been posting many quotes about Krishna and Shiva in this thread under the name guest.

Re: "Thank you, but you are still wrong trying to degrade his position here is what brahma says;

SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

Please note

And the supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation

Contemplate on supreme Brahman there is nothing beyond that, he is one without a second, wise know him by different names. Do not try and explain this away by some thing else."

Again, do I have to repeat? Shiva is described as the 'divine halo of the Supreme Brahman' - therefore Brahma addresses him in that way, for he knows that the source of Lord Shiva is the Supreme Brahman.

Now, when Brahma says that Shiva is the divine halo of Krishna, he means that Shiva is the divine halo of Krishna. When Brahma says Shiva is like curd and Krishna is like milk, he means that Shiva comes form Krishna just as curd comes from milk. When Brahma says that Krishna transforms himself for the work of destruction to become Lord Shiva, Brahma means that Shiva is a transformation of Krishna, just as curd is a transformation of milk. Now, I don't deny that Shiva is the divine halo of Krishna. Yet you are denying Brahma's comments that Shiva comes from Krishna. It is you who are selectively accepting some Vedic quotes and rejecting others. Also, I am not degrading Shiva's position, I am describing it as it is. No-one, including Shiva devotees, will deny that Shiva-tattva is a mixture of spiritual and material energy.

"I do not for a minute think otherwise but fact is he descend to this material world therefore he interacts with it."

No he does not, everywhere the Lord goes is transcendental. When he appeared in Vrindavana, it is transcendental. The people he associate with are eternal associates from the spiritual world. Now, when he wants to administer the material world, he transforms into Shiva, as Brahma already explains.

"These are lords energy and as such he can never be detach from it. He is known as ardhnarishvara. How can the lord be affected by his own energy?

This is what prajapati says in this regard;

SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

He is beyond this material creation he can never be affected by his own energy."

When i say Shiva engages with the illusory energy, I am in no way considering him to be lusty. Do not send wild accusations at me. I am simply describing Shiva's role. As Brahma explains, Shiva combines with Shakti, and through Maha-Vishnu's glance the material manifestation is created. This is not to say that Shiva is lusty, it is to say that Shiva's role is to create the material universes, not to create the spiritual world.

"Now when he is self effulgent, parabrahman how can he be under illusion?

Where there is light there is no darkness, have you ever heard of sun covered up by darkness?"

Please read the quote carefully. Shiva is described as impersonal brahman, which is originally Prabrahman. In other words Shiva is the universal impersonal feature of the Lord, and He is originally (he originates from) Parabrahman (Krishna).

"Does he say reject those other purans?"

If one is serious about Spiritual self-realisation, and Lord Shiva says that something is in the mode of ignorance, does it not make sense to avoid that thing which is in ignorance?

Srila Vyasadeva wrote those puranas for those who are in the mode of ignorance. If one wants to stay at that level, he can accept the conclusions of those puranas. Again, even those puranas make sense, when they are read in the light of the sattvic puranas.

"I have no annoyance about anything, nor do I have any illusion about lord Shiva be under any illusion, he is self effulgence the question does not arise"

So you accuse Lord Shiva of lying.

"Since we are all eternal what to speak of lord shiva, this is a childish argument, at what point of time are you talking about?

It is like saying Newton discovered law of gravity as if to say gravity did not exist before that."

So now you accuse Narayana of lying.

"Where and when does Krishna says this?"

Krishna says so in the Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad. Are you going to accuse him of lying?

"Do you agree to Lord Shiva's statement that he was freed from ignorance by praying to Krishna?)

simple answer NO."

So you think Lord Shiva is lying.

"Yes, but don’t ever think that he cant act as if he is under the influence of ignorance, just an example, like when Ram cried when mother Sita was abducted."

U accuse me of putting spin on the legitimate acharya commentary that i quote, and you then yourself put a spin on Shiva's statements, claiming that he is 'acting as if he was once in ignorance'. As for Rama, transcendental feelings of separation is not ignorance. And in any case, Rama never explicitly stated 'I am under the influence of ignorance'. In contrast, Lord Shiva states 'I prayed to Krishna to become free from ignorance'. That is why Lord Shiva is self-effulgent, because he was freed from ignorance. But you still claim that Lord Shiva is not telling the truth when he says that 'he prayed to Krishna to become free from ignorance'.

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

October 29, 2004

here's a qoute spoken by narayana to narada from the devi bhagavat purana

That Highest Self, the Para Brahma is denominated as Krisna. The word “Kris” denotes Bhakti to S’rî Krisna and the letter “na” signifies devotion to His service. So He is the Bestower of Bhakti and devotion to His service. Again “Kris” denotes all; everything; and

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“na” signifies the root. So He Who is the Root and Creator of all, is S’rî Krisna. When He desired, in the very beginning, to create this Universe, there was nothing then except S’rî Krisna; and at last, impelled by Kâla (His Own Creation), He became ready, in His part, to do the work of creation.

27-61. The Lord, who is All Will, willed and divided Himself into two parts, His Left part becoming female and His Right part becoming male. Then that Eternal One, Who is greatly loving, looked at the female, His left part, the Sole Receptacle to hold all the contents of love, very lovely to the eyes, and looking like the beautiful lotus. The loins of this woman defy the Moon; Her thighs put the plaintain trees quite in the background; Her breasts are mistaken for the beautiful Bel fruits; flowers are scattered as Her Hairs on the head; Her middle part is very slender, very beautiful to behold! Exceedingly lovely; appearance very calm; sweet smile reigning in Her lips; side long glances with Her; Her clothing is purified with fire; all over Her body decorated with gems. Her eyes, also, like the Chakora bird (Greek partridge) began to drink incessantly with joy the moon beams from the face of S’rî Krisna, defying, as it were, the ten millions of moons. On Her forehead there was the dot of vermillion (red-lead); over that, the dot of white sandal paste and over that was placed the musk. The fillets or braids of hair on Her head are slightly curved; this was decorated with Mâlatî garlands; on Her neck was suspended the necklace of gems and jewels and She is always very amorous towards Her husband. On looking at Her face, it seems that ten millions of moons have arisen at once; when She walks, Her gait puts (humiliates) those of ganders and elephants in the shade. O Muni! S’rî Krisna, the Lord of the Râsa Dance, and the Person of Taste in the Râsa sport, looked askance at Her for a while and then catching hold of Her by Her hand went to the Râsamandalam and began to play the Râsa sport (the amorous pastime). It seemed then the Lord of amorous pastimes had become incarnate there and had been enjoying the various pleasures of amorous passions and desires. So much, that Brahma’s one day passed away in that sport. The Father of the Universe, then becoming tired, impregnated in an auspicious moment in Her womb who was born of His left portion. The Prakriti Devî was also tired of the embraces of S’rî Krisna; so after the intercourse, she began to perspire and breathe frequently. Her perspiration turned into water and deluged the whole universe, with water; and Her breath turned into air and became the life of all beings. The female that sprung from the left side of Vâyu became his wife and out of their contact originated Prâna, Apâna,

p. 813

Samâna, Udâna and Vyâna, the five sons. These are the five vital Vâyus of all the beings. Besides these from the womb of the Vâyu’s wife came out Nâga and the other four lower Vâyus. The water that came out from perspiration, Varana Deva became the Presiding Deity of that; and the female, sprung out of the left side of Varuna Deva, became the wife of Varuna, called Varunânî. On the other hand, the S’akti, of the nature of knowledge of S’rî Krisna, remained pregnant for one hundred manvantaras. Her body became effulgent with Brahma-teja (the fire of Brahma). Krisna was Her life and She again was dearer to Krisna than his life even. She remained always with S’rî Krisna; so much so that She constantly rested on His breast. When one hundred manvantaras passed away, that Beautiful One gave birth to a Golden Egg. That egg was the repository of the whole universe. The Beloved of Krisna became very sorry to see the egg and out of anger, threw that within the water collected in the centre of the Universe. Seeing this, S’rî Krisna raised a great cry and immediately cursed Her duly and said :-- “O Angry One! O Cruel One! When you have forsaken out of anger this son just born of you, I say then that you become from today bereft of any issue. Besides, let all those godly women that will spring out of your parts, they also be deprived of having any issue or sons and they will remain ever constant in their youth. O Muni! While S’rî Krisna was thus cursing, suddenly came out from the tongue of the beloved of Krisna, a beautiful daughter, of a white colour. Her clothings were all white, in her hands there were lute and book and all Her body was decorated with ornaments made of gems and jewels. She was the Presiding Deity of all the S’âstras. Some time later the Mûla Prakriti, the Beloved of Krisna divided into two parts. Out of Her left portion came Kamalâ and out of Her right portion came Râdhikâ. In the meantime S’rî Krisna divided Himself into two parts. From his right side appeared a form two-handed; and from the left side appeared a form four-handed. Then S’rî Krisna addressed the Goddess Speech, holding flute in Her hand, “O Devî! You follow this four-handed Person as his wife” and then spoke to Râdhâ :-- “O Râdhe! You are a sensitive, proud lady; let you be My wife; so it will do you good”. S’rî Krisna also told Laksmî gladly to become the wife of the four-handed Nârâyana. Then Nârâyana, the Lord of the world, took both Laksmî and Sarasvatî to the abode Vaikuntha. O Muni! Both Laksmî and Sarasvatî became issueless, being born of Râdhâ. From the body of Nârâyana arose his attendants, all four-handed. They were all equal to Him in appearance, in qualifications; in spirit and in age. On the other hand, from the body of Kamalâ arose millions of female attendants all equal to Her in form and qualifications. Then

p. 814

arose innumerable Gopas (cow-herds) from the pores of S’rî Krisna. They were all equal to the Lord of Goloka in form, Gunas, power and age; they were all dear to Him as if they were His life.

62-88. From the pores of Râdhikâ came out the Gopa Kanyâs (cow-herdesses). They were all equal to Râdhâ and all were Her attendants and were sweet-speaking. Their bodies were all decorated with ornaments of jewels, and their youth was constant, they were all issueless as S’rî Krisna had cursed them thus. O Best of Brâhmanas! On the other hand, suddenly arose Durgâ, the Mâyâ of Visnu (The Highest Self) eternal and whose Deity was Krisna. (N. B. Durgâ was the Avatâra of Mûla Prakriti not the Avatâra of Râdhâ as Laksmî and Sarasvatî were.) She is Nârâyanî; She is Îs’ânî; She is the S’akti of all and She is the Presiding Deity of the intelligence of S’rî Krisna. From Her have come out many other Devîs; She is Mûla Prakriti and She is Îs’varî; no failings or insufficiencies are seen in Her. She is the Tejas (of the nature of Fire) and She is of the nature of the three Gunas. Her colour is bright like the molten gold; Her lustre looks as if ten millions of Suns have simultaneously arisen. She looks gracious always with sweet smile on Her lips, Her hands are one thousand in number. Various weapons are in all Her hands. The clothings of the three-eyed one are bright and purified by Fire. She is decorated with ornaments all of jewels. All the women who are the jewels are sprung from Her parts and parts of parts and by the power of Her Mâyâ, all the people of the world are enchanted. She bestows all the wealth that a householder wants; She bestows on Krisna’s devotees, the devotion towards Krisna; nay, She is the Vaisnavî S’akti of the Vaisnavas. She gives final liberation to those that want such and gives happiness to those that want happiness. She is the Laksmî of the Heavens; as well She is the Laksmî of every household. She is the Tapas of the ascetics, the beauty of the kingdoms of the kings, the burning power of fire, the brilliancy of the Sun, the tender beauty of the Moon, the lovely beauty of the lotus and the S’akti of S’rî Krisna the Highest Self. The Self, the world all are powerful by Her S’akti; without Her everything would be a dreary dead mass. O Nârada! She is the seed of this Tree of World; She is eternal; She is the Stay, She is Intelligence, fruits, hunger, thirst, mercy, sleep, drowsiness, forgiveness, fortitude, peace, bashfulness, nourishment, contentment and lustre. The Mûla Prakriti praising S’rî Krisna stood before Him. The Lord of Râdhikâ then gave Her a throne to sit. O Great Muni! At this moment sprang from the navel lotus the four-faced Brahmâ, with his wife Sâvitrî, an exceedingly beautiful woman. No sooner the four-faced Brahmâ,

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the foremost of the Jñânins, fond of asceticism and holding Kamandalu in His hand came into being than He began to praise S’rî Krisna by His four mouths. On the other hand the Devî Sâvitrî, with a beauty of one hundred moons, born with great ease, wearing apparel purified by fire and decorated with various ornaments praised Krisna, the One and Only Cause of the Universe and then took Her seat gladly with Her husband in the throne made of jewels. At that time Krisna divided Himself into two parts; His left side turned into the forn of Mahâdeva; and His right side turned into the Lord of Gopikâs (cow-herdesses). The colour and splendour of the body of Mahâdeva is pure white like white crystal; as if one hundred suns have arisen simultaneously. In His hands there are the trident (Tris’ul) and sharp-edged spear (Pattisa); He is wearing a tiger skin; on His head is matted hair (Jatâ) of a tawny hue like molten gold; His body was besmeared all over with ashes, smile reigning in His face and on His forehead, the semi-moon. He has no clothing on His loins; so He is called Digambara (the quarters of the Sky being His clothing); His neck is of a blue colour; the serpent being the ornaments on His body and on His right hand the nice bead of jewels well purified. Who is always repeating with His five faces the Eternal Light of Brahmâ, and Who has conquered Death by praising S’rî Krisna, Who is of the nature of Truth, the Highest Self, the God Incarnate, the material cause of all things and the All auspicious of all that is good and favourable, and the Destroyer of the fear of birth, death, old age, and disease and Who has been named Mrityunjaya (the conqueror of Death). This Mahâdeva took His seat on a throne made of jewels (diamonds, emeralds, etc.).

Ganeshprasad · October 29, 2004

Jai Ganesh

SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

Please note

And the supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation

Contemplate on supreme Brahman there is nothing beyond that, he is one without a second, wise know him by different names. Do not try and explain this away by some thing else."

Re

(Again, do I have to repeat? Shiva is described as the 'divine halo of the Supreme Brahman' - therefore Brahma addresses him in that way, for he knows that the source of Lord Shiva is the Supreme Brahman.)

Again I ask you where in this statement Brahma mentions divine halo?

Re

( When Brahma says that Krishna transforms himself for the work of destruction to become Lord Shiva, Brahma means that Shiva is a transformation of Krishna, just as curd is a transformation of milk.)

And what does Krishna says himself in bg.

Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; He, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of (all) beings. (13.17)

He is one without a second.

Re

(Now, I don't deny that Shiva is the divine halo of Krishna. Yet you are denying Brahma's comments that Shiva comes from Krishna. It is you who are selectively accepting some Vedic quotes and rejecting others. Also, I am not degrading Shiva's position, I am describing it as it is.)

nor do I ever deny Krishna is supreme Brahman, as for who is selective, god knows who is doing it, I have based my discussion on Gita and Bhagvad, since a lot of you will reject anything else written in other purans as if to say Shree Vyasdev did not know what he was writing.

I accept Lord Krishna says I am Shiva amongst Rudra in Gita or when he says iam mahesvara or undivided, yet appears as if divided.

Or Prajapati praying to Lord Shiva as supreme, or Brahma Praying to Lord Shiva.

Re

(No-one, including Shiva devotees, will deny that Shiva-tattva is a mixture of spiritual and material energy.)

Supreme Brahman is not devoid of this energy.

"I do not for a minute think otherwise but fact is he descend to this material world therefore he interacts with it."

Re

(No he does not, everywhere the Lord goes is transcendental. When he appeared in Vrindavana, it is transcendental. The people he associate with are eternal associates from the spiritual world. Now, when he wants to administer the material world, he transforms into Shiva, as Brahma already explains.)

show me one place the lord is not there, he pervades everything therefore every thing is transcendental.

"These are lords energy and as such he can never be detach from it. He is known as ardhnarishvara. How can the lord be affected by his own energy?

This is what prajapati says in this regard;

SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

He is beyond this material creation he can never be affected by his own energy."

Re

(When i say Shiva engages with the illusory energy, I am in no way considering him to be lusty. Do not send wild accusations at me. I am simply describing Shiva's role. As Brahma explains, Shiva combines with Shakti, and through Maha-Vishnu's glance the material manifestation is created. This is not to say that Shiva is lusty, it is to say that Shiva's role is to create the material universes, not to create the spiritual world.)

Sorry I did not say or think he is under illusion, prajapati said they can not understand your activities, so just let us leave it to that.

"Now when he is self effulgent, parabrahman how can he be under illusion?

Where there is light there is no darkness, have you ever heard of sun covered up by darkness?"

Re

(Please read the quote carefully. Shiva is described as impersonal brahman, which is originally Prabrahman. In other words Shiva is the universal impersonal feature of the Lord, and He is originally (he originates from) Parabrahman (Krishna).)

Shiva is described as cause of all causes supreme Brahman which is originally parabrahman.

No where do they say you originate from Parabrahman they say you are originally parabrahman.

Originally does not mean originate

This is the dictionary meaning;

(at) first, in/at the beginning, to begin with, initially, in the first place, at the outset.

Re

"Does he say reject those other purans?"

(If one is serious about Spiritual self-realisation, and Lord Shiva says that something is in the mode of ignorance, does it not make sense to avoid that thing which is in ignorance? )

Answer the question asked, we both take the meaning of statement in different light, if it was ignorance there was no need to write that, nor the rihi to narrate it.

Re

(Srila Vyasadeva wrote those puranas for those who are in the mode of ignorance. If one wants to stay at that level, he can accept the conclusions of those puranas.

In other words your conclusion those who read them will remain in ignorance for ever,

But there is one grace Lord Shiva will be their savior.

Re

( Again, even those puranas make sense, when they are read in the light of the sattvic puranas.)

Only sense one would make reading all the purans is that Lord is one who goes by different names.

Re

(So you accuse Lord Shiva of lying.)

No, but his activities are very difficult to understand

Re

(So now you accuse Narayana of lying.)

No but you did not answer my question, at what point of time?

Re

(Krishna says so in the Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad. Are you going to accuse him of lying?)

No but i do not have the Upanishad to verify what you have quoted.

Re

(U accuse me of putting spin on the legitimate acharya commentary that i quote, and you then yourself put a spin on Shiva's statements, claiming that he is 'acting as if he was once in ignorance'.)

I simply do not understand his activities, but I know the supreme Brahman can not be under illusion of his own energy.

Re

( As for Rama, transcendental feelings of separation is not ignorance. And in any case, Rama never explicitly stated 'I am under the influence of ignorance'. )

I would never said Ram is under ignorance, others might misconstrue his action as if in ignorance that was the point.

Re

(In contrast, Lord Shiva states 'I prayed to Krishna to become free from ignorance'. That is why Lord Shiva is self-effulgent, because he was freed from ignorance.)

Self-effulgent means just that, there is no question of ignorance.

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

Jai Shree Krishna

imported_servegod · October 30, 2004

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

"(U accuse me of putting spin on the legitimate acharya commentary that i quote, and you then yourself put a spin on Shiva's statements, claiming that he is 'acting as if he was once in ignorance'.)

I simply do not understand his activities, but I know the supreme Brahman can not be under illusion of his own energy."

The debate has gone on long enough, but you have basically indicated the reality through your final reply. Yes, you simply do not understand Shiva's activities, that's for sure. By your reply, though, you have shown that you do understand things. So when Lord Shiva says he was freed from ignorance, then Lord Shiva is saying he is not Supreme Brahman, since you just admitted than Supreme Brahman can never be under influence of ignorance.

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

Ganeshprasad · October 30, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

Re

(The debate has gone on long enough, but you have basically indicated the reality through your final reply. Yes, you simply do not understand Shiva's activities, that's for sure. By your reply, though, you have shown that you do understand things. So when Lord Shiva says he was freed from ignorance, then Lord Shiva is saying he is not Supreme Brahman, since you just admitted than Supreme Brahman can never be under influence of ignorance.)

The debate we have has been going in for eternity and I dare say it will go on for ever, until such time as one has realized the truth, we may never know for sure the activities of the lord, therefore your statement saying lord shiva was freed from ignorance is not a concrete proof that he was under the influence of ignorance.

There are enough statement in the shastra to say he is supreme which you can not deny. So on that note I am prepared to agree to disagree with you. I shall chant his names along side of Ram and Krishna without any fear of any naam apradh. You only have to look at Vishnu shastranam and the Lord Shiva names are there.

So chant and be happy

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

Jai Shree Krishna

October 31, 2004

No doubt you are crooked; as crooked as Shakuni. A straight forward description and praise of ‘Sadashiva and His material manifestation – Lord Ishana’ is perverted by you. Actually, you are deluding yourself and no one else that the Hymns are for Visnu.

This is plain falsification, since Bhagavatam says:

19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

-------------

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

The descriptions and hymns pertain to Sada Shiva and no one else. If ‘the Hymns were for Visnu’ (as you say) then why should Vishnu himself fail to understand Sada Shiva?

You cannot yet overcome your ego and accept anything graciously. But you are doing a great service by having become an instrument of ‘exposure of falsification in your type of literature’. The whole world is learning. This is His way.

Hail His way.

****************"I ask: Why Lord Vishnu—the Supreme God Head approached SadaSiva to drink Halahal?"

To glorify his devotee.*************************************************

Except in falsified translations or perverted purports, such a statement is not to be found.

On the contrary:

Rig Veda Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: -------.

---------

11 For these songs, -------- the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

Note: Visnu, claims and merits praise on account of Rudra.

More

Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.

1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds. He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.

20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways, With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.

Note: Indra is the mind of Rudra. (And Visnu is the gati of Rudra)

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

28 ----------------------

Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters. Yes, Rudra’s Mind only creates Visnu.

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

2 -----

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

-------------

Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.

1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. ------.

2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might

Note: Visnu extols and lauds majesty of Indra who is the mind of Rudra. Visnu's movement (swiftness is on account of Indra's energy).

You don’t dare to say that Rig Veda is Tamasic. So, you simply ignore Vedas and cite dubious literature, either falsified by you or your preceptors.

**********************"Please note: Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you"

One can be a Vaishnava and also surrender unto Lord Shiva, since he is the greatest of Vaishnavas - no problem.*********************************************

Again, where is the word Vaishnava in Rig Veda. ‘Vaishnava- Saiva- Sakta’ are word only and are artifacts of Kali Yuga.

Where in Rig Veda is it stated that “Rudra-Soma-Indra-Visnu_Agni” is Vaishnava?

These are truly in the imaginations of immature minds.

And 'those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you'. How can you with load of ego, surrender?

*****************************"Please note: Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Siva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma."

why say celebrated as Lord Shiva? Why not your lordship Shiva? The reason: The Supreme Truth (Vishnu) who is Paramatma is in this particular verse being celebrated as Lord Shiva, the direct representative of Lord Vishnu. -------------*************************************

Just see your foolishness.

Bhagavatam states:

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

Note: It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

In these passages Sada Siva is being celebrated as Param-atman – the source of all other deities. And you say: “Lord Shiva, the direct representative of Lord Vishnu.

You are full of ego and your ego leads you to foolishness and contradiction.

My only answer is again from Bhagavatam:

33. Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

First Note: ‘see you moving with Uma’ ---- So, Bhagavatam is talking about Lord of Uma only and not another diety.

Second Note: Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

Third note: Certainly you are shameless.

Yoga Vashista clearly states that it is One Rudra who becomes Krishna also. And this accords with all Shruti.

Your statements contradict your own citations.

October 31, 2004

*************************"In Chandogya, Krishna is taught Brahma Gyana. Does the Supreme Lord need to be taught? Where Shiva is taught Brahma Gyan?"

Krishna came down and showed people how to become self-realized, by submissively enquiring from one's Spiritual master.

Does the Supreme Lord mention another to be the highest form to worship, the only original person? Like Lord Shiva does in the Padma Purana and the Srimad Bhagavatam? Does the Supreme Lord say he became free from illusion by praying to Krishna, like Lord Shiva says in the Srimad Bhagavatam? How can the Supreme Lord ever be under illusion?************************************

Yes, when Krishna receives Brahma Gyan, it is it His greatness.

But when Shiva (the manifested Shiva), teaches the Mortal beings that Krishna is the highest form to be worshipped, and then it is servitude.

Read the Bhagavatam carefully. You will find Shiva saying: the highest form to be worshipped. Yes, the highest form.

The Highest form but not the highest worship: One who is the seed of the universe, the light that shines in the Effulgent Brahman (See below the Chandogya).

Chandogya Upanishad (3.17.6-7

III-xvii-6: Ghora Angirasa expounded this well-known doctrine to Devaki’s son Krishna and said, ‘Such a knower should, at the time of death, repeat this triad – "Thou art the imperishable, Thou art unchangeable, Thou art the subtle essence of Prana". (On hearing the above) he became thirstless. There are these two Rik stanzas in regard to this.

III-xvii-7: (Those knowers of Brahman who have purified their mind through the withdrawal of the senses and other means like Brahmacharya) see everywhere (the day – like the supreme light) of the ancient One who is the seed of the universe, (the light that shines in the Effulgent Brahman). May we, too having perceived the highest light which dispels darkness, reach it. Having perceived the highest light in our own heart we have reached that highest light, which is the dispeller (of water, rays of light and the Pranas), shining in all gods – yea, we have reached that highest light.

Similarly, in Bhagavatam, Shiva describes Visnu as the best of Self realized persons.

"You are the most exalted of all self-realized souls."

Note: Now, what is a self realized soul?

Similarly, in Bhagavatam, Dhruva describes Visnu as the best of the demigods who can offer benedictions

My dear Lord, You are the best of the demigods who can offer benedictions. Why therefore, should any learned person ask You for benedictions meant for living entities bewildered by the modes of nature? Such benedictions are available automatically, even in the lives of living entities suffering in hellish conditions ------ [23]

Read with open mind and with all of Vedas in perspective.

And please you read Padma Purana. I will rather read the Vedas. And know for certain that if Shiva says something contradictory to Vedas in Padma Purana, then Shiva is ensnaring people like you in Maya.

*********************"Where is this stated? You are again falsifying Maha Narayana Upanishad, wherein Agni, Indra, Visnu, Aditi, Naryana – all are described as Brahman."

I apologise, actually it is from the Maha Upanishad:

I-1-4. Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy. From the (desire of) the Paramatman, the Yajnastoma (hymn known as Avyakta) is said to have arisen.

So Narayana existed before Shiva and Brahma - u agree? Or r u gonna dodge that bullet?!?****************

Why should I dodge the bullets? When the bullets are Maya bullets? Your bullets can never be real, since you speak from ego sense.

So, you are in the habit of committing mistake, in the hope that you will not be caught.

Yes, Narayana existed before manifested Shiva. But Narayana existed along with the eternal jyoti – Sambhu. Maha Visnu, in the first place, is manifest in this divine light --- Shambhu.

Brahma Samhita

Book 1 TEXT 10

saktiman purusah so 'yam

linga-rupi mahesvarah

tasminn avirabhul linge

maha-visnur jagat-patih

“tasminn avirabhul linge”

The lord of the world Maha Vishnu’s appearance is in linga rupi Mahesvara (Translations of your preceptors are distorted).

You can also read Madhavcharya’s life. Vishnu appeared to him out of a Shiva Linga.

Read also Chandogya, to know that the ultimate is to know that Supreme light.

Chandogya Upanishad (3.17.6-7

III-xvii-6: Ghora Angirasa expounded this well-known doctrine to Devaki’s son Krishna and said, ‘Such a knower should, at the time of death, repeat this triad – "Thou art the imperishable, Thou art unchangeable, Thou art the subtle essence of Prana". (On hearing the above) he became thirstless. There are these two Rik stanzas in regard to this.

III-xvii-7: (Those knowers of Brahman who have purified their mind through the withdrawal of the senses and other means like Brahmacharya) see everywhere (the day – like the supreme light) of the ancient One who is the seed of the universe, the light that shines in the Effulgent Brahman. May we, too having perceived the highest light which dispels darkness, reach it. Having perceived the highest light in our own heart we have reached that highest light, which is the dispeller (of water, rays of light and the Pranas), shining in all gods – yea, we have reached that highest light.

Now, I will cite from Maha Upanishad the portions that you ignored. You are being led by the Supreme. He only forces you to cite literature that exposes your falsity.

Maha Upanishad is nothing but Yoga Vashishta and it is a document of Advaita. Please read it fully. Here, I have just excerpted certain portions.

Maha Upanishad

I-1-4. Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy. From the desire of the Paramatman, the Yajnastoma (hymn known as Avyakta) is said to have arisen.

Note1: They say Narayana was alone. He could not be happy.

-----------------------

I-5-6. In it arose fourteen Purushas (Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Isana, Shiva and nine Prajapatis like Daksha), one maiden (Mula-Prakriti), the ten organs (five of perception and five of action), Mind as the eleventh, bright intellect as the 12th, ego as the 13th, Prana as 14th, Atma as 15th, Buddhi, Kama, Karma and Tamas, five Tanmatras, along with gross elements and the Being was the 25th (Sutratman).

------------------

I-7. Again, Narayana, desiring something else, thought. From his forehead a person arose with three eyes and a trident, having glory, fame, truth, celibacy, austerity, detachment, mind, lordship, seven Vyahritis (Bhur etc.,) along with Pranava, Rik and other Vedas, all metres is his body – so, he is the great Lord

Note2:

I-7 “a person arose with three eyes and a trident ------- so, he is the great Lord”

-----------------------

II-1-11. Suka, of great lustre, devoted to Natural Bliss, the prince of sages, realised Truth -------.

The supreme being is Ether because there is nothing outside it and yet not the ether, because it is all pure consciousness (Bhava) – it is nothing which can be pointed out (specified such and such) as a thing, reality etc.

IV-1-24. --------------- That itself is oneness, that is the highest and auspicious joy.

-

All the visible things in the world are nothing more than the consciousness (Bhava) without vibration – contemplate this.

--------------------------------

When there arises the pure realization of all as the spirit, then shines the ‘body’ in the form of the consciousness (Bhava), beyond origin, space and time.

IV-70-72. One fears never (and from nothing) on knowing the nature of the Self as Bliss unequalled, attributeless and one mass of truth and consciousness (Bhava). --- ancient Being --- worshipped by all gods

IV-76-82. Only one who looks upon everything in relation to consciousness (Bhava) is the knower proper, Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma. -------------.

---------------------------

Iv-83-87. ---------. He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

-----------------

Iv-116-121. The supreme lord is the ineffable conscious principle present every where and devoid of mental misery. All this (cosmos) is Brahman, eternally conscious, undecaying. The other thing namely mental projections, does not really exist.

Nothing is really born, dies in this triad of worlds, nor is there any reality in various stages of things; only Pure Consciousness (Bhava) is real, which is aloof, shining by itself common to all and free from mental torment.

VI-61. ‘that Brahman has been identified with emptiness, Prakriti, Maya and also consciousness (Bhava). It is "Shiva, pure Spirit, the Lord, the eternal and the self".

VI-77(b). ‘Bondage is fashioned by Bhava (as subject) and its objects; once free from these, liberation follows.

VI-78. ‘"Consciousness (Spirit) is never an object; all is Self" – this is the essence of all Vedantic doctrines. Resorting to this sure doctrine, behold (the world), intellectually and freely.

VI-79. ‘You will independently achieve the Self, the status of bliss (holding): I am Spirit, these worlds are Spirit, the directions (in Space) are Spirit; these manifested beings are Spirit.

End of citation

*********************The Upanishads never mention Shiva to be superior to Krishna...in fact above quotes show that they describe Krishna to be superior to Shiva**********************************

The Self; Consciousness; Shiva; Rudra; Narayana; Indra; Aditya; Krishna, all are held up as Brahman in Upanishads. But, it is very clearly stated that it is the Self or the Consciousness (Bhava) that is all.

And only one Bhava – Consciousness is allowed. All objects perceived as different from the Consciousness are illusions.

HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas.

10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born

Note: Aditi is mother of Adityas -- the wise ordainer of the Universe. And then Aditi (a being without a second -- Mother) is all: the heaven, the earth, the father, the son etc. The father is Soma. The sons are Vishnu, Indra, varuna etc.

HYMN XLIII. Rudra.

1 WHAT shall we sing to Rudra, strong, most bounteous, excellently wise, That shall be dearest to his heart?

2 That Aditi may grant the grace of Rudra to our folk, ----

Note: And Aditi grants the grace of Rudra. Bhava and Bhavani.

Rig Veda 7.46.2

To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

He through his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway.

Note: Self dependent God. What does it mean? “the Conqueror whom none may overcome.”

Note: You think that you are real. You are only a thought in Rudra. So are the beings of the Heavens.

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

e The mole is thy beast, O Rudra; rejoice in it.

Note: Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. There is no second.

There is no Krishna in Rig Veda. Krishna is shown to be an incarnation of Lord Vishnu in Bhagavatam. And Krishna appears in very recent Upanishads. Before that in Rig Veda, Rudra is known as Gopisvara.

And Krishna is a name of Lord Sada Shiva:

(58) Manipura, Nabhogati, Hrit, Pundarikasina, Shatru, Shranta, Vrishakapi, Ushna, Grihapati, Krishna.

The above Lord Krishna confirms in Gita

Gita

yo mam ajam anadim ca vetti loka-mahesvaram

asammudhah sa martyesu sarva-papaih pramucyate

He alone who knows Me as unborn, beginning less, and as Mahesvara, the Supreme Controller of all the worlds, is undeluded among mortals and freed from all sins.

From Bhgavatam

Kansa had sent a cruel ogress Pootana to kill all the newly born babies in his kingdom. ----------. Lord Krishna was only six days old then.

Pootana's breasts were filled with poison. Pootana took the baby to secluded place and began to breast feed him. Lord Krishna prayed to Lord Shiva who came to stay in His throat and drank all the poison from the milk.

Lord Krishna prayed to Lord Shiva who came to stay in His throat and drank all the poison from the milk.

Bhagavatam

19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

Why: the Lord Himself (Lord Vishnu), approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]?

Why: The One Lord did not take anything but the poison whereas other Gods took gems, jewels and dames?

Sri Brahma Samhita

Book 1 TEXT 8

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

Devi is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hari – the Lord of the Universe. And She – the regulator (Niyati) is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of supreme Lord Hareh.

Why: A person will entrust one’s potency -- the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition (Devi in short) to another man called Saktiman?

The Svetasvatara Upanishad Chapter III

2

Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

4

He, the omniscient Rudra, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the support of the universe, He who, in the beginning, gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

Kaivalya Upanishad

---------------

7. Meditating on the highest Lord, allied to Uma, powerful, three-eyed, blue-necked, and tranquil, the holy man reaches the Supreme, who is the source of all, the witness of all and is beyond darkness (i.e. Avidya).

8. He is Brahma, He is Shiva, He is Indra, He is the Immutable, the Supreme, the Self-luminous, He alone is Vishnu, He is Prana, He is Time and Fire, He is the Moon.

9. He alone is all that was, and all that will be, the Eternal; knowing Him, one transcends death; there is no other way to freedom.

10. Seeing the Atman in all beings, and all beings in the Atman, one attains the highest Brahman – not by any other means.

------------------------

25. He who studies the Shatarudriya, is purified as by the Fires, is purified from the sin of drinking, purified from the sin of killing a Brahmana, from deeds done knowingly or unawares.

Through this he has his refuge in Shiva, the Supreme Self. One who belongs to the highest order of life should repeat this always.

Maha Narayana Upanishad

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which is representative of soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, dark blue and reddish brown in hue, absolutely chaste and possessing uncommon eyes. Salutations to Him alone who is the Soul of the universe or whose form is the universe.

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures. The material universe the created beings and whatever there is manifoldly and profusely created in the past and in the present in the form of the world, all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

**********- Shiva is covered by Krishna's illusory energy.************************

Yes, It is the absolute truth. In Kali, the Karpura-Gauranga truth gets hidden in black ignorance.

But is Karpura-Gauranga ever deluded?

As stated by Brahma in Bhagavatam:

45. O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuntha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. -------

------

49. My dear lord, you are never bewildered by the formidable influence of the illusory energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore you are omniscient and should be merciful and compassionate toward those who are bewildered by the same illusory energy----------

Else, why should the power of cognition of Vishnu (Devi) be under the control of Saktiman?

Chant_Hare_Krsna · October 31, 2004

If you say Shiva is God, then you offend Lord Shiva thus you can't love Krishna. That's a fact. If you say Shiva and Krishna are same as in they always think of each other. {even then achintya bheda bheda applies} then you love both. End.

imported_servegod · November 1, 2004

"There are enough statement in the shastra to say he is supreme which you can not deny. "

I accept Shiva as Supreme Lord of material manifestation. But you choose to reject the shastra that says Shiva was freed from ignorance by the grace of Krishna. You reject shastra that states that Shiva was under the influence of Krishna's illusory energy. You reject shastra that states that Krishna gives Shiva authority to rule his realm. You reject shastra where Lord Shiva says there is NO HIGHER FORM of WORSHIP than that of Krishna.

imported_servegod · November 1, 2004

Hare Krishna

"The descriptions and hymns pertain to Sada Shiva and no one else. If ‘the Hymns were for Visnu’ (as you say) then why should Vishnu himself fail to understand Sada Shiva?"

Yes, but the descriptions do not say that Shiva is the original Personality of Godhead. It is referring to Impersonal Brahman.

"Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters. Yes, Rudra’s Mind only creates Visnu"

This is imperfect, erroneous logic. It is like saying cats and dogs both have four legs, therefore cats must be dogs...

"Note: It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra."

This is about the impersonal brahman, which is irrelevant to the debate.

"Yoga Vashista clearly states that it is One Rudra who becomes Krishna also"

Interesting, is yoga vashishta part of the original vedas, or an upanishad or a purana? Can you please bring the quote you write about to this forum?

Until then, we cannot continue

Hare Krishna

imported_servegod · November 1, 2004

Hare Krishna,

"Yes, when Krishna receives Brahma Gyan, it is it His greatness.

But when Shiva (the manifested Shiva), teaches the Mortal beings that Krishna is the highest form to be worshipped, and then it is servitude."

Why would Krishna not want to receive Brahma Gyan? He loves to hear about his own energy.

There is no inconsistency. I am not denying that Krishna is receiving Brahma Gyan. But you are denying that Shiva means what he says when he says 'Krsna is the highest form to be worshipped'.

"Note: Now, what is a self realized soul?"

The best of self-realised souls = God, yes, and as Shiva goes on, he describes Krishna as the only original person...the one who he prayed to to be freed from ignorance. Funny how you deny those shastras?!?

"My dear Lord, You are the best of the demigods who can offer benedictions."

...and it goes on to say not to ask for benedictions from Vishnu, because he is transcendental to the modes. But it is recommended to ask for boons from Shiva. Krishna did, Rama did, Ravana did etc...

"Yes, Narayana existed before manifested Shiva. "

It does not say manifested Shiva in quote. Interesting how you inserted a word in there.

"The lord of the world Maha Vishnu’s appearance is in linga rupi Mahesvara (Translations of your preceptors are distorted)."

The translation is glance, not appearance. Maha Vishnu's glance over Shiva-Shakti creates the material manifestation. And Shambhu is manifest from Vishnu's forehead, which is in the same scripture.

As for the Maha Upanishad. Firstly, it states that Narayana desired and so manifested Shiva. Then it goes on to talk of the pure spirit aspect, the impersonal brahman aspect which is Shiva. I don't deny that. But still, the basis of that impersonal brahman is Parabrahman, Narayana.

"There is no Krishna in Rig Veda. Krishna is shown to be an incarnation of Lord Vishnu in Bhagavatam. And Krishna appears in very recent Upanishads. Before that in Rig Veda, Rudra is known as Gopisvara."

No, The Bhagavatam states at the very beginning that the original primeval source of all spiritual and material worlds is Krishna (Vasudevah). Rudra is Gopisvara. He controls the gopis. Which is why gopis pray to Shiva to get Krishna as their husband. Upanishads are not recent, especially Gopal Tapaniya Upanishads.

"Why: A person will entrust one’s potency -- the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition (Devi in short) to another man called Saktiman?"

Because Brahma states that the Supreme Lord does not engage with the illusory energy, Mayadevi.

"Yes, It is the absolute truth. In Kali, the Karpura-Gauranga truth gets hidden in black ignorance"

Only Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad is not talking of the age of Kali. You have once again added that in.

"31. By worshipping Him, Shiva became free from illusion, and by chanting this mantra in a solitary place, he attained the Lord."

(Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad 1.1.31)

"He alone is Vishnu"

exactly, since Shiva is the direct representative of Vishnu. This is why we should not see any difference between the instructions of Shiva and Vishnu.

Hare Krishna

November 1, 2004

***********"The descriptions and hymns pertain to Sada Shiva and no one else. If ‘the Hymns were for Visnu’ (as you say) then why should Vishnu himself fail to understand Sada Shiva?"

Yes, but the descriptions do not say that Shiva is the original Personality of Godhead. It is referring to Impersonal Brahman.***********************

"You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma."

"Supersoul of all living entities"

"you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation"

"You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman."

"You are not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra."

Blind will always see legs of an elephant but not the whole elephant. Or, what is day and what is night for the blind?

I do not want to further sully the names of Shiva and Vishnu, who are dearest to me.

You, obviously, are a foreigner -- and either a new convert or a planted Christian (to artificially foment discontent). Recent converts (like kalapahar) are the greatest dangers.

My prayer: Lord pardon my lapses.

HYMN XXXIII. Rudra.

1. FATHER of Maruts, let thy bliss approach us: exclude us not from looking on the sunlight. Gracious to our fleet courser be the Hero may we transplant us, Rudra, in our children.

4 Strong God! Rudra, Let us not anger thee with mingled invocation, worship, or ill praise.

November 1, 2004

********If you say Shiva is God, then you offend Lord Shiva ********************

How do you know? Did He tell you?

From Bhagavatam

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

29. O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Siva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma.

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

When even Lord Vishnu does not understand Lord Shiva fully, who are you to preach?

Sri Brahma Samhita

Book 1 TEXT 8

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

"lingam bhagavan sambhur jyoti-rupah sanatanah"

Read Bhagwan Sambhu

Moreover, Lord Shiva is known as Ishana and if ardent (but surely immature) believers like you disregard these Vedic indicators, you are not doing justice to yourself.

No other is harmed.

Be happy with your ignorance.

Ganeshprasad · November 1, 2004

Jai Ganesh

I thought I would be able to agree to disagree with you but it looks like the Lord does not want me to.

As I said before, it is not always easy to understand the activities of the lord, you have also not been able to accept many things lord Shree Krishna says in Gita, you have also rejected Lord Brahmas statement in Bhagvat. SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

Since you accept Lord Shiva as supreme creator cosmic universe, let us consider what Lord Krishna says in this regards

Know that all creatures have evolved from this twofold energy, and Brahman is the origin as well as the dissolution of the entire universe. (See also 13.26) (7.06).

One who knows Me as the unborn, the beginningless, and the Supreme Lord of the universe(Maheshvera), is considered wise among the mortals, and gets liberation from the bondage of Karma. (10.03)

O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)

I shall fully describe the object of knowledge, knowing which one attains immortality. The beginningless Supreme Brahman is said to be neither Sat nor Asat. (13.13)

Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; He, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of (all) beings. (13.17)

There can not be two who can create sustain and destroy and therefore the lord say,undivided, yet appears divided.

"4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa.

You may want to consider these three lord as different but for me I have no illusion about them as one without a second.

Jai Shree Krishna

November 1, 2004

******************"The descriptions and hymns pertain to Sada Shiva and no one else. If ‘the Hymns were for Visnu’ (as you say) then why should Vishnu himself fail to understand Sada Shiva?"

Yes, but the descriptions do not say that Shiva is the original Personality of Godhead. It is referring to Impersonal Brahman.**************************

Really. We are acting as if we know everything, when even Lord Vishnu lacks full understanding.

Bhagavatam

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

Taittiriya Upanishad

II-vii-1: In the beginning all this was but the Unmanifested (Brahman). From that emerged the manifested. That Brahman created Itself by Itself. Therefore It is called the self-creator.

That which is known as the Shyambhu is verily the source of joy; for one becomes happy by coming in contact with that source of joy. Who, indeed, will inhale, and who will exhale, if this Bliss be not there in the supreme space (within the heart). This one, indeed, enlivens (people). For whenever an aspirant gets fearlessly established in this un-perceivable, bodiless, inexpressible, and un-supporting Brahman, he reaches the state of fearlessness. For, whenever the aspirant creates the slightest difference in It, he is smitten with fear. Nevertheless, that very Brahman is a terror to the (so-called) learned man who lacks the unitive outlook.

Illustrative of this is this verse here:

II-viii-1-4: Out of His fear the Wind blows. Out of fear the Sun rises. Out of His fear runs Fire, as also Indra, and Death, the fifth.

End of citation

November 1, 2004

*****************************Why would Krishna not want to receive Brahma Gyan? He loves to hear about his own energy.

There is no inconsistency. I am not denying that Krishna is receiving Brahma Gyan. But you are denying that Shiva means what he says when he says 'Krsna is the highest form to be worshipped'.*****************

**************************The best of self-realised souls = God, yes, and as Shiva goes on, he describes Krishna as the only original person...the one who he prayed to to be freed from ignorance. Funny how you deny those shastras?!?******************************************

Oh yes really funny. Like Krishna loves to hear about His energy, Shiva likes to praise His own forms – His own children. You are not only funny but senseless also. You get entrapped in your own arguments again and again. The veiling power and the liberating power are both functions of one Lord.

Yes, Shiva praises Krishna (actually Vishnu) as best of Self realized purusha. It is correct since, whole of Vedas and Upanishads proclaim repeatedly: You are That (for the Self Realized ones).

I or my preceptors do not deny anything. The part of the text that is your sole refuge is a gross wrong translation by SP. Read the original Sanskrit verse. It is prescribed to beginners to meditate on a form to attain concentration since devotion to the un-manifest is difficult.

*********************"My dear Lord, You are the best of the demigods who can offer benedictions."

...and it goes on to say not to ask for benedictions from Vishnu, because he is transcendental to the modes. But it is recommended to ask for boons from Shiva. Krishna did, Rama did, Ravana did etc...*******************************

It does not matter who grants benedictions. It is enough that you agree that Vishnu is the best among the demi Gods.

********************"Yes, Narayana existed before manifested Shiva. "

It does not say manifested Shiva in quote. Interesting how you inserted a word in there.***************

Yes. I inserted manifested myself. Since:

Sri Brahma Samhita

Book 1 TEXT 8

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

“jyoti rupa sanatanah bhagwan shambhu”

You have all along denied that Shambhu is Bhagwan, but this verse not only says that Shambhu is Bhagwan but also says that He is Sanatanah.

Also:

Brahma Samhita

Book 1 TEXT 10

saktiman purusah so 'yam

linga-rupi mahesvarah

tasminn avirabhul linge

maha-visnur jagat-patih

“tasminn avirabhul linge”

“Avirabhul” means manifest/appearance etc. and not “glance”. Translation of “Avirbhul” as “Glance” is a big mischief. This is unpardonable.

********************"The lord of the world Maha Vishnu’s appearance is in linga rupi Mahesvara (Translations of your preceptors are distorted)."

The translation is glance, not appearance. Maha Vishnu's glance over Shiva-Shakti creates the material manifestation. And Shambhu is manifest from Vishnu's forehead, which is in the same scripture.*************

No. No. No. “Avirbhul” is appearance.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Again Shambhu appears from the forehead of Brahma and Vishnu both.

**************As for the Maha Upanishad. Firstly, it states that Narayana desired and so manifested Shiva. Then it goes on to talk of the pure spirit aspect, the impersonal brahman aspect which is Shiva. I don't deny that. But still, the basis of that impersonal brahman is Parabrahman, Narayana.***************

I don’t deny anything. Vishnu and Shiva are two aspects of the same Bhava who is Narayana and who is also Shiva.

Taittiriya Upanishad

II-vii-1: In the beginning all this was but the Unmanifested (Brahman). From that emerged the manifested. That Brahman created Itself by Itself. Therefore It is called the self-creator.

That which is known as the Shambhu is verily the source of joy; for one becomes happy by coming in contact with that source of joy.

Yajur Veda

v. 7. 3.

a Thou art the thunderbolt of Indra, slaying foes; Guarding our bodies, lying in wait; He who in east, south, west, In the north, as a foe plots against us, May he strike on this rock.

---------------------.

b O Agni and Visnu, May these songs gladden you in unison; Come ye with radiance and strength.

----------------------------

The fire is Rudra; now two are his bodies, the dread the one, the auspicious the other; in that he offers the Çatarudriya, he soothes with it his dread form; in that he offers the stream of wealth, he delights with it his auspicious form.

********************"There is no Krishna in Rig Veda. Krishna is shown to be an incarnation of Lord Vishnu in Bhagavatam. And Krishna appears in very recent Upanishads. Before that in Rig Veda, Rudra is known as Gopisvara."

No, The Bhagavatam states at the very beginning that the original primeval source of all spiritual and material worlds is Krishna (Vasudevah). Rudra is Gopisvara. He controls the gopis. Which is why gopis pray to Shiva to get Krishna as their husband. Upanishads are not recent, especially Gopal Tapaniya Upanishads.*******************************

I maintain that There is no Krishna in Rig Veda. Krishna is shown to be an incarnation of Lord Vishnu in Bhagavatam. And also that Gopala Tapaniya is a recent Upanishad. It states:

34. -------------- To attain liberation one should chant this five-word Vaishnava mantra, which reveals Lord Krishna.

Where is the word “Vaishnavism” in Rig Veda, Yajur Veda and Sama Veda? The Vaishnav word is suspect as is the Saiva word.

All such limiting words and forms are suspect. Gopala Tapaniya is a recent Upanishad as proven by a limiting word “Vaishnav”. Rig Vedic mantras are not Vaishnav or Saiva, they are sanatanah – eternal.

But somehow you still deny that Bhagavatam states that Vishnu, Brahma cannot fathom Sada Shiva.

You deny that Bhagavatam states:

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

You say: Which is why gopis pray to Shiva to get Krishna as their husband. Yes, my wife also prayed to Lord Shiva to get me as Husband.

**********************"Why: A person will entrust one’s potency -- the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition (Devi in short) to another man called Saktiman?"

Because Brahma states that the Supreme Lord does not engage with the illusory energy, Mayadevi.*************************

Oh no. Krishna took birth in a mother’s womb and also sired worldly children. Whereas, “Bhagwan Shambhu” is sanatanah bhagwan. Only Saktiman Purusha can control Maya Devi.

Will you entrust your Devi under my control?

Moreover, in Bhagavatam, Brahma eulogizes Lord Shiva: “You are never influenced by the formidable Maya of God Head”.

What does it mean? Contemplate if you wish.

**************************"Yes, It is the absolute truth. In Kali, the Karpura-Gauranga truth gets hidden in black ignorance"

Only Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad is not talking of the age of Kali. You have once again added that in.

"31. By worshipping Him, Shiva became free from illusion, and by chanting this mantra in a solitary place, he attained the Lord."

(Gopala Tapaniya Upanishad 1.1.31)***************************

You yourself only informed me that Brahma teaches in Kali Santarana Upanishad that in Kali “Hare Rama -----“ is the mantra.

It is really foolish that ignoring Brihadaraynaka, Isa, Svet, Mandukya, Maha Narayana, Keno and other upanishad’s you should be forced to resort to Gopala Tapaniya alone.

I can cite from an Upanishad that Lord Ganesha granted salvation to Lord Krishna. And Chandoyga states that Krishna received the Knowledge from Ghora Angirasa.

And read Gopala Tapaniya carefully again before Lord breaks up your ego again like He broke your ego when you mis-translated Chandogya and when you tried to cite Maha Narayana and Maha Upanishads.

******************"He alone is Vishnu"

exactly, since Shiva is the direct representative of Vishnu. This is why we should not see any difference between the instructions of Shiva and Vishnu.*****************************

Whom are you fooling? Sada Shiva alone is Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesvara. This does not mean Shiva is the direct representative of Vishnu. This is blasphemy and you will pay.

From Bhagavatam

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

My friend, keep fooling yourself but do not say another negative thing about Sanatanah Bhagwan Shambhu. Shiva cannot be the direct representative of Vishnu. Vishnu is the son. Rudra is undecaying-sanatanah-self-dependent and ever victorious.

Yajur Veda

Rudra alone yields to no second. (Actually there is no second)

From Rig Veda

HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

1. IN forefront of the cars forth goes the Hero, the Leader, winning spoil: his host rejoices. Soma endues his robes of lasting colours, and blesses, for his friends, their calls on Indra.

5 Father of holy hymns Soma flows onward, the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

Book 10 RV

HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

--------

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: ------

11 For these, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

Visnu is sired by Soma. And Lord Vishnu merits praise on account of Lord Rudra. Do not ignore Rig Veda. Lord Krishna alone is guiding you.

Lord Krishna is smiling at you and proclaiming "Worship me as Mahesvara".

imported_servegod · November 3, 2004

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

I tire from arguing, so let's just agree to disagree.

My understanding of Lord Shiva's statement in the Srimad Bhagavatam, when he says 'I prayed to Krishna to become free from ignorance' is that Lord Shiva is the Supreme Lord of the cosmic manifestation specifically because he was freed from ignorance, and he is consequently the highest, most exalted, most auspicious devotee of Krishna.

Obviously the shastra is not clear enough for you. I have nothing more to say.

Hare Krishna and Om Namo Shivaya

(N.B. Interesting Conversation from the acharya that I follow:

Devotee: I have a friend who acknowledges after reading the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna is superior to Lord Shiva, yet he is still chanting Om Namo Shivaya.

Srila Prabhupada: What is the problem with that? If he understands Lord Shiva's position, then he is serving Lord Shiva like we serve the Vaishnavas. Lord Shiva will guide him to Krishna.)

November 3, 2004

I respect you and your belief. You are free of intolerance that goes in the name of faith in this site.

I close this discussion with an excerpt from a Purana which I hope you will not term as Tamasic:

Padma Purana, Swarga Khand

On being asked by Yudhishthir about the grandeur of holy places like Kashipuri, Kapardishwar & Gaya. Narad said ---

Just as Lord Mahadev is supreme among all the deities, in the same manner Kashipuri holds a significant status among all the places of pilgrimage. Hence an individual should make it a point to visit Kashi once in his life time. The famous Shiva linga Kopardishwar is installed at Kashi and is said to fulfill all the desires of a man. Performance of various rituals at Kashi liberates a man from all his sins-all his flaws are eliminated automatically just by residing in Kashi.

Skanda Puran

YASYAGYA JAGAT SRISHTA VIRANCHIH PALKO HARIH;

SANHARTA KAALRUDRAKHYO NAMASTASMAI PINAKINE.

Salutations to Lord Shankar who has entrusted the job of creation to Lord Brahma and has instructed Lord Vishnu to nurture the world and who himself acts as the supreme annihilator.

May we continue in our paths undaunted and reach the same goal.

God is one. A purush who is established in Self (who sees Lord in everyone and everyone within Lord), contains all dieties within and such a purusha binds dieties in his heart (hridaya).

That is what my Guru teaches me.

Ganeshprasad · November 5, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(May we continue in our paths undaunted and reach the same goal.)

God is one. A purush who is established in Self (who sees Lord in everyone and everyone within Lord), contains all dieties within and such a purusha binds dieties in his heart (hridaya).

That is what my Guru teaches me.)

Yours is a noble gesture,your guru has thought you well, you give in just as an elder brother would.

It is a pity that this debate does not end in mutual respect for each others view, just as we respect others religion.

Alas it is not to be I dare say if the two personalities were to personally come and instruct us some of us would still resist.

All glories to Lord Krishna all glories to Lord Shiva and all glories to your Guru

Jai Shree Krishna

November 6, 2004

"Yours is a noble gesture,your guru has thought you well, you give in just as an elder brother would."

The other person said he was tired. And I guess, he is the same person who used words like Maha fool in another thread.(Of course I may be wrong also).

There is no point in rubbing in a thing too much. Let my guest friend soak knowledge on his own. Let him first believe what he preaches. And let him first believe Gita.

Regards,

Thanks.

And you are, i guess, correct when you say that even if the two personalities were to personally come and instruct us, some of us would still resist.

And that is why, although God's grace is always available, one in many millions derive benefit.

yagna_narayana · January 13, 2011

How people would be so foolish to differentiate between shiva and vishnu.... even Shiva or Vishnu would not forgive them.... Go to hell.

The Skanda Purana also mentions Bhubaneswar ksetra. Once, in Kasi, Varanasi, there was a King who was a great devotee of Lord Siva, but his desires where unfulfilled. That King underwent severe penances in order to conquer Lord Krishna. He was doing tapasya to satisfy Lord Siva with the desire to conquer Krishna.

Who can understand the behavior of a vaisnava? Even the demigods cannot understand it, then what to speak of the human beings? Sivaji became pleased with the King’s tapasya and told him: "All right. You go and fight against Krishna. I will follow you to support and help you." So that King started for battle, followed by Lord Siva and all his followers. Krishna, who is known as Vasudeva, Devakinandana, could understand all this. Thus He released His sudarsana cakra. Sudarsana first cut off the head of the king, and then that cakra cut off the heads of all the Siva bhaktas of Kasi. Varanasi turned into a crematorium ground with everyone dead. Lord Siva then became very angry and released his pasupata-astra. But what can the pasupata-astra do in front of Krishna's sudarsana cakra? It could not do anything, and at last Siva became frightened. He tried to run away, but where could he go? Then Siva understood, "Except for Krishna, no one can save me now." So he surrendered to the lotus feet of Krishna, Govinda, and offered many prayers. Siva said: "O Lord of my heart, I have only one prayer. I am always very puffed up and I have this great false ego. But now I have understood that I cannot leave You. I cannot stay anywhere else, so please tell me where shall I live now?"

Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva

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