Lord is One

[atanu]

Sabka Malik Ek

 

It is puerile and naïve to disagree that The Lord is one. He appeared as a fire column to Moses to hand over instructions and he appears as fire column to us also.

 

When Veda says

 

‘For the glory of thee, O Rudra, the life powers make bright thy birth into a richly manifold beauty. When that highest step -- The supreme plane of the three -- of Vishnu is founded within, thou guardest by it the secret name of the Ray cows. ‘

 

Note: Some people remind me that this hymn is for Agni. It is true that the hymn is for Agni. But these people cannot digest that Agni is Rudra. Soul of all Gods is Rudra.

Some people (same set of people) again say that Siva is mentioned as the Supreme Lord in the Tamasic Puranas only. This is a blatant lie, perpetuated either due to ignorance or willfully.

 

Some people have also stated that Vedas are the source of all contradictions and hence they want Krishna out of the folds of Sanatana Dharma. They forget that the contradictions are in their minds and their so-called Ego (Maya).

 

In fact, Puranas only name Brahman as Maha-Visnu, Rama, and Krisna. In Vedas and Vedanta, Brahman is all – the root being Rudra. In Vedas there is no Maha-Visnu. The followers of Sanatana Dharma see no contradiction in this. They know that One Supreme Being only manifests as everything. Vedas declare that: “To the earthly beings, Brahman will be known as Rama”. Serious minded ones may please read the whole of Rig Veda to find this sloka.

Some people (same set of people again) say: well Rudra drank the poison with the help of Vayu and Rudra derives his strength from Visnu. Both the statements are true but the interpretations are funny since they are biased. My daughter derives strength through Horlicks, so Horlicks is the Lord. My daughter derives prana through Vayu, so Vayu is the Lord. That my daughter’s soul is the Lord is forgotten.

 

Rudra is the soul of the Gods. Rudra is the “Bhargo” in the Gayatri. He is Agni. He is the soul of Savitar who manifests Agni. Agni when thus brought down is Visnu.

Below are given a few references from the Vedas to Rudra-Siva as the one Lord, who has become all.

 

Rig Veda tells:

‘Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.

Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.’

 

Yajur Veda:

iv. 5. 9.

a ----------.

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

 

 

yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha

tasmai rudrAya namo astu

 

Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds

 

 

 

From Rig Veda

 

Rig Veda 7.46.2

 

To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

 

He through his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway. Come willingly to our doors that gladly welcome thee, and heal all sickness, Rudra, in our families.

 

Note that “To Rudra bring these songs” – The Rig Veda is a song of Rudra

Again note “his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway”

 

 

RV 2.33

 

1. Lord of Maruts, let thy bliss approach us: ----------.

3 Chief of all born art thou in glory, Rudra, armed with the thunder, mightiest of the mighty. ------

9 With firm limbs, multiform, the strong, the tawny adorns himself with bright gold decorations: The strength of Godhead ne'er departs from Rudra, him who is Sovran of this world, the mighty.

10 Worthy, thou carriest thy bow and arrows, worthy, thy many hued and honoured necklace. Worthy, thou cuttest here each fiend to pieces: a mightier than thou there is not, Rudra.

-------------

15 O tawny Bull, thus showing forth thy nature, as neither to be wroth, O God, nor slay us. Here, Rudra, listen to our invocation. Loud may we speak, with heroes, in assembly.

 

HYMN XLIII. Rudra.

1 WHAT shall we sing to Rudra, strong------

2 That Aditi may grant the grace of Rudra to our folk, our kine,

Our cattle and our progeny;

3 -----

4 To Rudra Lord of sacrifice, of hymns and balmy medicines,

We pray for joy and health and strength.

5 He shines in splendour like the Sun, refulgent as bright gold is he,

The good, the best among the Gods.

6 ---------

 

Note 1: Aditi, mother of Vishnu, is invoked to obtain Rudra’s grace.

Note 2: Rudra is the Lord of sacrifice and hymns

 

Rig Veda 6. 74. 3

Soma and Rudra, provide for our bodies all needful medicines. Loosen and withdraw from within us whatever sin we have committed, which still adheres within our persons.

 

Note: Liberation from Karma and its effects is Shiva’s domain.

 

Indra himself is called Shiva several times in Rig Veda (2:20:3, 6:45:17, 8:93:3).

 

Rig Veda 10.125.8

 

He is Rudra because He makes sinners weep ... is called Shiva as He is the benefactor and the well-wisher of all.

 

 

From Yajur Veda

 

iv. 4. 8.

(Thou I art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.

 

iv. 4. 9.

 

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought; Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place; delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival; Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh's altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh's altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.

 

Please read the above again and again:

 

Thou art everything but you are Rudra when offered. All offerings at sacrifice go to Rudra alone.

 

iv. 5. 1.

-------

c That body of thine, O Rudra, which is kindly,

Not dread, with auspicious look,

With that body, most potent to heal,

O haunter of the mountains, do thou look on us.

 

d -------

f The advocate hath spoken in advocacy,

The first divine leech,

Confounding all the serpents

And all sorceries.

g ---------

 

h He who creepeth away,

Blue-necked and ruddy,

Him the cowherds have seen,

Have seen the bearers of water

And him all creatures;

May be, seen, be gentle unto us. (Reference to Sun)

 

i Homage to the blue-necked,

Thousand-eyed one, the bountiful

And to those that are his warriors (reference to Indra)

 

I ------

 

iv. 5. 2.

a Homage to the golden-armed leader of hosts, and to the lord of the quarters homage!

b ---------

 

Note: Lord of the hosts and Lord of the quarters

 

iv. 5. 5.

a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra.

b Homage to Çarva -----------.

f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista.

g --------------.

I Homage to the chief, and to the first.

m -----------------.

 

Note: Rudra is Carva. Carva is all. Rudra is Cipivista and That Thou art.

 

iv. 5. 9.

a ----------.

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods.

q -------------

s Homage to the unconquerable.

t Homage to the destroyers.

iv. 5. 6.

a Homage to the oldest, and to the youngest.

b Homage to the first born, and to the later born.

c ------------.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: Spakling heart of the Gods.

 

Note: Oldest and the youngest. The first born and the later born.

 

iv. 5. 7.

-------

n Homage to him of the cloud, and to him of the lightning.

o Homage to him of the cloudy sky, and to him of the heat.

p Homage to him of the wind, and to him of the storm.

q Homage to him of the dwelling, and to him who guardeth the dwelling.

 

Note: He is in heat (agni), lightning (Indra), Wind (Vayu), Storm (Maruts). The dwelling and its guard.

 

iv. 5. 8.

a Homage to Soma, and to Rudra.

b Homage to the dusky one, and to the ruddy one. (Note: Homage to the two most luminous of His forms: The Sun (Savitar) and the Moon (Soma)).

c ----------.

f Homage to the slayer, and to the special slayer.

g -----------.

h Homage to the deliverer.

i Homage to the source of health, and to the source of delight.

k Homage to the maker of health, and to the maker of delight.

I Homage to the auspicious, and to the more auspicious.

m ---------------

n Homage to him beyond, and to him on this side.

o Homage to him who crosseth over, and to him who crosseth back.

p ----------------

 

iv. 5. 9.

a ------

f ------------------

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods.

q ---------

s Homage to the unconquerable.

t Homage to the destroyers.

 

Note: Unconquerable

 

iv. 5. 10.

a ------

b That auspicious form of thine, O Rudra,

Auspicious and ever healing,

Auspicious and healing (form of) Rudra,

With that show mercy on us for life.

c ----------,

 

e ----------

k O most bounteous, most auspicious,

Be auspicious and favourably inclined to us;

Placing down thy weapon on the highest tree,

Clad in thy skin, come,

And approach us bearing the spear [4].

1 ----------.

 

iv. 5. 11.

a -----

b The Bhavas in this great ocean, (Note: The ocean where Visnu rests).

The atmosphere--

c The Çarvas of black necks, and white throats,

Who wander below on the earth--

d The Rudras who abide in the sky,

Of black necks and white throats--

e ------

Homage to the Rudras on the earth, in the atmosphere, in the sky, whose arrows are food, wind, and rain, to them ten eastwards, ten to the south, ten to the west, ten to the north, ten upwards; to them homage, be they merciful to us, him whom we hate and him who hateth us, I place him within your jaws.

 

Note:

 

Don’t say these are Tamasic. Then better accept that you are not an adherent of Sanatana Dharma.

 

Many in this site deride Rudra out of ignorance (tamas), stating that Rudra is Tamas. They deride some Puranas similarly. What they do not understand is that the He is the Lord of Tamas – a state most difficult to overcome.

 

A Jiva seeped in Tamas will have no other resort but to fall at the feet of Siva-Rudra.

 

It does not matter whether the non believers will ever believe or not. It is Lord’s will only. Some ripe Jivas may however derive knowledge.

 

[Hrithik]

True words of Sai Baba: Sabka Malik ek. God is one, and we address him by different names in different cultures, but that does not essentially destroy his unity. We as humans, with our insecurities haven't been able to get in terms with the differences we see among other cultures. Rudra, Vishnu, Yahweh, Allah, God all are the names of that same essential being whose description fails not only words, but also human imagination. Just knowing a name we signify him, we does make us acquanted to him.

 

Our religious scriptures, like scriptures from other cultures are attempts to explain God. The contradictions arise when the words of the prophets gets misinterpreted because although we follow their words, we are not in unison with their experience. But, I have the faith that we will all have our time, and he reveal his true splendour to all of us whether Vishnu Bhakta, Shiva Bhakta, Advait, Dvait, Achintya Bheda Bhed follower, Christian : Protestant, Catholic, Muslim: Shiah, Sunni, or any other religious denomination or school of thought.

 

What do you all think? Please respond.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Pranam Atanu

Re

Sabka Malik Ek

 

Hey malik tere bande ham ese ho hamare karam nati par chale---

 

I have no much knowledge of Vedas, but when i read Bhagvad Gita And Krishna says Of Rudra I am Sankara.i find it very difficult to understand people finding escuses to refute it

even when reading Bhagvat, singing the glory of Siva as Bhagvan you will find some people dismissing it, as against Vedas. as if to say Sri Vyasdev did not know what he was writing.

Thank you for bringing the Vedas evidence here.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Sabka Malik Ek

 

It is puerile and naïve to disagree that The Lord is one.

 

 

Nobody(much less a Vaishnava) refutes that Bhagavan is one. The question is what Vedas teach.

 

 

He appeared as a fire column to Moses to hand over instructions and he appears as fire column to us also.

 

 

It is of no consequence to us Hindus if moses and jews ever saw Bhagavan or not.

 

We Hindus should depend on Vedas and nothing else. Gaining knowledge is ok, but to depend on some other scripture(that goes against Vedas) to validate Vedas is a mark of weakness.

 

 

When Veda says

 

‘For the glory of thee, O Rudra, the life powers make bright thy birth into a richly manifold beauty. When that highest step -- The supreme plane of the three -- of Vishnu is founded within, thou guardest by it the secret name of the Ray cows. '

 

 

Again the verse refers to Lord Agni.

 

The actual translation of the verse is

 

5.003.03 tava shriye maruto marjayanta rudra yat te janima cAru citram |

padaM yad viSNor upamaM nidhAyi tena pAsi guhyaM nAma gonAm

 

For your glory the Maruts sweep (the firmament), when your birth, Rudra, is beautiful and wonderful; the middle step of Vis.n.u has been placed, so you cherish the mysterious name of the waters. [Your birth is beautiful and wonderful: Agni as the lightning; cherish the mysterious name of the waters: pa_si guhyam na_ma gona_m = udaka_na_m

guhyam na_ma_ni ra_ks.asi].

 

 

Note: Some people remind me that this hymn is for Agni. It is true that the hymn is for Agni. But these people cannot digest that Agni is Rudra. Soul of all Gods is Rudra.

 

 

Now the advaitists and people who propound that Lord Shiva is Bhagavan have to first prove that Lord Shiva is Bhagavan and the soul of all beings through Sruti. Unless they do that one cannot take the above claim seriously.

 

 

Some people (same set of people) again say that Siva is mentioned as the Supreme Lord in the Tamasic Puranas only. This is a blatant lie, perpetuated either due to ignorance or willfully.

 

 

Well, this is according to Padma Purana itself. It is not any individuals imagination. Besides we can also see that the claim of advaitists opposes sruti and so it is called Tamasic.

 

 

Some people have also stated that Vedas are the source of all contradictions and hence they want Krishna out of the folds of Sanatana Dharma. They forget that the contradictions are in their minds and their so-called Ego (Maya).

 

 

Hmmm... I do not know who made this claim and hae not seen anyone believing in Vedas do so.

 

 

In fact, Puranas only name Brahman as Maha-Visnu, Rama, and Krisna. In Vedas and Vedanta, Brahman is all – the root being Rudra.

 

 

In Vedanta, surely it is stated "Brahman is all". I don't think that anything about Lord Rudra being the Brahman is stated.

 

 

In Vedas there is no Maha-Visnu. The followers of Sanatana Dharma see no contradiction in this. They know that One Supreme Being only manifests as everything. Vedas declare that: “To the earthly beings, Brahman will be known as Rama”. Serious minded ones may please read the whole of Rig Veda to find this sloka.

 

 

There are lot of verses explicitly stating Lord Visnu is Bhagavan and source of everything. You can refer my previous post.

 

http://www.hindu-religion.net/showflat/cat/hinduism/64280/16/collapsed/5/o/1

 

 

Some people (same set of people again) say: well Rudra drank the poison with the help of Vayu and Rudra derives his strength from Visnu. Both the statements are true but the interpretations are funny since they are biased. My daughter derives strength through Horlicks, so Horlicks is the Lord. My daughter derives prana through Vayu, so Vayu is the Lord. That my daughter’s soul is the Lord is forgotten.

 

 

Hmmm...I did not surely talk about horlicks and I do find the comparison of Lord Vayu to horlicks rational(although it amuses me a bit). Prana(Lord Vayu) here refers to life force that drives everything in prakriti including great Deities like Lord Rudra.

 

and one thing, surely your daughter's soul is a Jiva and not Bhagavan.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Rudra is the soul of the Gods.

 

 

Last time you made this claim, I showed there is no Sruti verse to support this.

 

 

Rudra is the “Bhargo” in the Gayatri. He is Agni. He is the soul of Savitar who manifests Agni. Agni when thus brought down is Visnu.

 

 

Each letter in Gayatri Mantra refers to a deity at one level and to Bhagavan at another level.

 

http://www.geocities.com/gayatrisiddhpeeth/gayatri/mantra.htm

 

http://www.urday.com/padma_shk3.htm#ideal

 

As for Lord Visnu, it is clearly stated in Vedas that HE always existed and even before Lord Rudra took birth from Lord Brahma's Head.

 

1.156.02 He who presents (offerings) to Vis.n.u, the ancient, the creator, the recent, the self-born; he who celebrates the great birth of that mighty one; he verily possessed of abundance, attains (the station) that is to be sought (by all). [s'ravobhir yujyam cidabhyasat, by food, or by fame, he attains whatsoever is to be joined with; to complete the ellipse: annairyuktah san sarvair gantavyam tat padam gacchati].

 

[barney]

It has been said a million times by great seers but people have their own notion. For ages the scriptures had been misinterpreted by many for what they perceive. Here we see the KC's being confused by their masters and the Vaishnavas and Shivaits being confused by their teachers and so are the Christians, Jews and Muslims. Even the Buddhist too misuderstood the teachings of the Buddha. They were strictly told not to make him an idol of worship but we see his instructions were not heeded. So many are living with confused minds and are confusing those who speak the truth.

 

But do not worry time will heal. Eventualy they will realize the mistake. As far as the wise ones they should keep mum and follow the sequence and let nature change the ways of the ignorant.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Below are given a few references from the Vedas to Rudra-Siva as the one Lord, who has become all.

 

Rig Veda tells:

‘Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.

Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.’

 

 

6.049.10 Exalt Rudra, the parent of the world, with these hmns by day; (exalt) Rudra (with them) by night; animated by the far-seeing, we invoke him, mighty, of pleasing aspect, undecaying, endowed with felicity, (the source of) prosperity.

 

I do not know how the above verse proves anything of the claims made by advaitists or shivites.

 

 

Yajur Veda:

iv. 5. 9.

a ----------.

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

 

 

 

Again this verse talks about position of Rudras and does not imply that Lord Shiva is God.

 

 

yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha

tasmai rudrAya namo astu

 

Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds

 

 

This verse is not found in Yajur Veda Samhita.

 

 

From Rig Veda

 

Rig Veda 7.46.2

 

To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

 

He through his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway. Come willingly to our doors that gladly welcome thee, and heal all sickness, Rudra, in our families.

 

Note that “To Rudra bring these songs” – The Rig Veda is a song of Rudra

Again note “his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway”

 

 

 

Did you forget Rig Veda 7:40:5 and Devi Sukta. Lord Rudra's lordship is not over Lord Visnu or MahaLakshmi or even Lord Vayu.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

Note 1: Aditi, mother of Vishnu, is invoked to obtain Rudra’s grace.

Note 2: Rudra is the Lord of sacrifice and hymns

 

 

 

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Note:

 

Don’t say these are Tamasic. Then better accept that you are not an adherent of Sanatana Dharma.

 

 

Since every verse is found in Sruti except one, I am not going to claim anything like that.

 

 

Many in this site deride Rudra out of ignorance (tamas), stating that Rudra is Tamas.

 

 

I do not think anybody made this claim and definitely I did not see any Vaishnava make such a claim.

 

 

They deride some Puranas similarly.

 

 

This yes. I agree and also think so. Tamasic puranas go against Sruti.

 

 

What they do not understand is that the He is the Lord of Tamas – a state most difficult to overcome.

 

A Jiva seeped in Tamas will have no other resort but to fall at the feet of Siva-Rudra.

 

It does not matter whether the non believers will ever believe or not. It is Lord’s will only. Some ripe Jivas may however derive knowledge.

 

 

Lord Shiva is the Lord of Tamas. No doubt in it. It is HE(Lord Shiva) who releases a soul from avidya. Again no doubt. Lord Shiva afflicts Jivas with avidya and the only way to escape this is worship Lord Shiva. Again there is no doubt in this.

 

But Lord Shiva is definitely not Bhagavan. This is confirmed in Sruti and there is no doubt in this as well.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh Jai Vyasdev

Jai Maa Sarasvati

 

Re

 

(Lord Shiva is the Lord of Tamas. No doubt in it. It is HE(Lord Shiva) who releases a soul from avidya. Again no doubt. Lord Shiva afflicts Jivas with avidya and the only way to escape this is worship Lord Shiva. Again there is no doubt in this.

But Lord Shiva is definitely not Bhagavan. This is confirmed in Sruti and there is no doubt in this as well. )

 

Lord Vishnu is Lord of Goodness. No doubt in it.

He destroys the demons with all kind of weapons and sometimes with devious way.

 

Lord Siva is lord of Tamas. No doubt in it.

He is ugra and yet very peaceful.

Doesn’t this tell us something?

Lord is one without a second, Krishna confirms this in Bhagvat Gita, there is no doubt in what Krishna says. What is in Sruti I have no idea. Sri Vedvyas has spoken of oneness in Purans in many places, to reject this is like saying Vyasdev did not know Sruti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

But do not worry time will heal. Eventualy they will realize the mistake

 

barney, there's no problem in thinking that others are wrong and you are the only one who understand... but you have nothing to give in exchange, your proposals are constantly going toward vagueness and voidism

 

so give me something more nicer, or simply something, and i very easily will give up my idea

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

I have quoted verses from Sruti that clearly show Lord Rudra is subordinate to Lord Visnu, Mahalakshmi and even Lord Vayu. If you cannot accept it then you are rejecting Vedas. Bhagavad Gita is explained as per the Srutis by Vaishnavas. When Lord Krishna says "I am Sankara, etc" He means that HE is the antaryami of all these demi-Gods.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Hare Krishna,

 

Re

 

(I have quoted verses from Sruti that clearly show Lord Rudra is subordinate to Lord Visnu, Mahalakshmi and even Lord Vayu. If you cannot accept it then you are rejecting Vedas.)

 

 

to accept anything you have to have faith, it is also very easy to pull few quotes

contradictions are there.

my question was since Sri Vyasdev wrote the vedas and puranas, did he not know Sruti?

 

 

Re

(Bhagavad Gita is explained as per the Srutis by Vaishnavas. When Lord Krishna says "I am Sankara, etc" He means that HE is the antaryami of all these demi-Gods. )

 

It is quite clear what Lord Krishna is saying if you are questioning that, then there is something fundamentaly wrong.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

 

 

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

to accept anything you have to have faith, it is also very easy to pull few quotes, there are contradictions all over.

my question was since Sri Vyasdev wrote the vedas and puranas, did he not know Sruti?

 

 

I guess you do not understand what Sruti is ? Sruti refers to Veda Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads. There is no contradiction in Sritis. I think I am discussing with somebody who does not know even what Sruti is.

 

 

(Bhagavad Gita is explained as per the Srutis by Vaishnavas. When Lord Krishna says "I am Sankara, etc" He means that HE is the antaryami of all these demi-Gods. )

 

It is quite clear what Lord Krishna is saying if you are questioning that then there is something fundamentaly wrong.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

Lord Krishna also says there that one who worships Devas go to Devas, one who worships ghosts go to them, etc. and that one who worships HIM, attains HIM. Read fully before making any conclusions. You need to gain knowledge before you argue here. First know what Sruti refers to.

[Guest guest]

Dear Atanuji,

 

Welcome back. its been so many days i have seen you in this forum. i missed you. where have you been ?

 

Many things have happened (especially for me) after you have disappeared in this forum. hehe

 

i will tell it later.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Dhuupa Theerthaya Namaha

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Guru Raghavendraya Namaha

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya Namaha

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

 

Re

(I guess you do not understand what Sruti is ? Sruti refers to Veda Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads. There is no contradiction in Sritis. I think I am discussing with somebody who does not know even what Sruti is.)

 

By attacking my inadequacy on vedas you are doing a fine jog of presenting your own intelegence, read my post you will see i clearly mention i am not well versed in vedas.

 

Are you able to answer did Sri Vyasdev not know sruti?

 

 

Re

(Lord Krishna also says there that one who worships Devas go to Devas, one who worships ghosts go to them, etc. and that one who worships HIM, attains HIM. Read fully before making any conclusions. You need to gain knowledge before you argue here. First know what Sruti refers to. )

 

I leave the sruti to you, but i do not need your permision to discuss.

 

i have no doubt when Krishna says those who worship Devas go to them, it would be foolish to think otherwise.

 

Point was; Arjun is quite clearly asking Lord Krishna, in what various forms are you to be remembered? And Sri Bhagvan is responding to this question. thats all realy.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

Point was; Arjun is quite clearly asking Lord Krishna, in what various forms are you to be remembered? And Sri Bhagvan is responding to this question. thats all realy.

 

you are introducing a plural sense that it were not in the question

 

please bring the verse and we will see

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

By attacking my inadequacy on vedas you are doing a fine jog of presenting your own intelegence, read my post you will see i clearly mention i am not well versed in vedas.

 

 

You are agreeing to lack of knowledge. Then what is the point in arguing with me. First you need to learn. I am not attacking you, but it is pointless on your part to prove your point when you do not know what Vedas say.

 

 

Are you able to answer did Sri Vyasdev not know sruti?

 

 

 

This is ridiculous question. Veda Vyasa(Krishna Dwaipanya) is Lord Visnu's avatar.

 

 

leave the sruti to you, but i do not need your permision to discuss.

 

i have no doubt when Krishna says those who worship Devas go to them, it would be foolish to think otherwise.

 

Point was; Arjun is quite clearly asking Lord Krishna, in what various forms are you to be remembered? And Sri Bhagvan is responding to this question. thats all realy.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

Then please read Gita fully. What is said here is that HE, the LORD, is the support(antaryami) of everything.

 

I am the origin or seed of all beings, O Arjuna. There is nothing, animate or inanimate, that can exist without Me. (See also 7.10 and 9.18) (10.39)

 

Read the verses below. Particularly 15 and 17. Lord Shiva and Lord Brahma are said to be seen within Lord Krishn'a transcendental body in verse 15, but in verse 17 Lord Krishna HIMESELF is seen as holding Discuss, Gadha etc. This form is seacial to Lord Visnu only.

 

Arjuna said: O Lord, I see in Your body all the gods and multitude of beings, all sages, celestial serpents, Lord Shiva as well as Lord Brahmaa seated on the lotus. (11.15)

 

 

O Lord of the universe, I see You everywhere with infinite form, with many arms, stomachs, faces, and eyes. Neither do I see the beginning nor the middle nor the end of Your Universal Form. (11.16)

 

 

I see You with Your crown, club, discus; and a mass of radiance, difficult to behold, shining all around with immeasurable brilliance of the sun and the blazing fire. (11.17)

 

 

 

There is no end of My divine manifestations, O Arjuna. This is only a brief description by Me of the extent of My divine manifestations. (10.40)

 

 

Whatever is endowed with glory, brilliance, and power; know that to be a manifestation of a fraction of My splendor. (10.41)

 

 

What is the need for this detailed knowledge, O Arjuna? I continually support the entire universe by a small fraction of My energy. (10.42)

[Guest guest]

these words are conclusive... there's no serious possibility to say the opposite

[Guest guest]

"But Lord Shiva is definitely not Bhagavan. This is confirmed in Sruti and there is no doubt in this as well."

 

 

Shiva is a complex tattva, it's not so simple to take one form of his as a representation of all his tattva. What do srutis say of the original Shiva?

 

 

"Sri Vedvyas has spoken of oneness in Purans in many places, to reject this is like saying Vyasdev did not know Sruti.my question was since Sri Vyasdev wrote the vedas and puranas, did he not know Sruti?"

 

 

For example in some places in Bhagavata Purana Shiva is mentioned to be para brahma and other places subordinate to Vishnu. There is no contradiction here.

 

Bhagavata Purana according to Vyasa is a Vedanta literature and is on equal status with the Vedas and their essence.

 

It isn't so easy to dismiss puranas when there is appearant "contradiction" between them and srutis. This implies Vyas is contradicting himself. Actually there is no contradiction, rather the lack of the readers intelligence to understand what Vyas is saying.

 

In rajasika and tamasika puranas Vyasa compiled adjusted instructions for rajasika and tamasika people to become sattvik. No contradiction anywhere. When puranas are classified as rajasika and tamasika, they are so in general, not all parts are rajasika or tamasika. For instance in Markandeya Purana, there are parts talking about atma jnan. Certainly atma jnan isn't rajasika or tamasika.

 

Who started this rejecting of sastras that "contradict" srutis anyway? Shankara? Mimamsa school?

 

Sripada Ramanuja uses Bhagavan Vyas' words from Mahabharata to support the validity of Pancharatras saying Vyas doesn't contradict himself.

 

Why is Gita, which is classified as smriti authoritative? Because of its content. Gitopanishad.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

Re

 

(You are agreeing to lack of knowledge. Then what is the point in arguing with me. First you need to learn. I am not attacking you, but it is pointless on your part to prove your point when you do not know what Vedas say.)

I see absolutely no point in arguing with you, cause, you see, anyone who do not know Vedas, are ignorant not worthy to make a point with you.

Not knowing Vedas does not mean lack of knowledge (in my case it is different but that is beside the point)

Re

(This is ridiculous question. Veda Vyasa(Krishna Dwaipanya) is Lord Visnu's avatar.)

 

Ha, ridiculous and that is what I say too, only I find, many here, tell me to reject , never mind the so called tamsic puran, but anything even in Bhagvat puran, that is against Vedas.

 

I was going to answer rest of your points , but I think I will be wasting my time with you, if not the Lord who else can be the support of everything? I do not need to read Gita on your account.

Jai Shree Krishna.

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(you are introducing a plural sense that it were not in the question

please bring the verse and we will see )

 

Bg

 

 

How should I meditate on You? In what various forms are You to be contemplated, O Blessed Lord?10.17

 

 

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19)

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, behold My hundreds and thousands of multifarious divine forms of different colors and shapes. (11.05)

Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form.9.15

 

When Prahlad had faith that Lord Hari was in the pillar, and if he can manifest from it, why is so necessary to reject or read something different, when lord Krishna says I am Shankar. Vyasji wrote this also in many purans, as well as Bhagvat puran says so in places.

 

At the end of the day it is a matter of faith without which no amount of grammar or knowledge will help me.

Shankar Bhagvan and Mata Parvati are embodiment of sradha and vishwas.

Goswami Tulsidas a great devotee of lord Ram, had all the praise for lord Shiva, this did not take his devotion away from Lord Ram

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

all the verses you have brought have a personalist meaning:

 

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19)

(the lord is not human and his form is not human, he has the possibility to expand himself endlessly as a person in infinite persons that are personalities of the same individual)

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, behold My hundreds and thousands of multifarious divine forms of different colors and shapes. (11.05)

(every personal manifestation of sri krsna is himself a complete person and somewhat different from other manifestations, krsna is all powerful, every personality is not simply a puppet or a mirrored image of him)

Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form.9.15

(all these three explanations are personalist and they are forms, not undifferentiated brahman)

When Prahlad had faith that Lord Hari was in the pillar, and if he can manifest from it

(krsna is paramatma, personal manifestation within every atom and in every body at the side of the individual soul.. so there's no difficulty, for param atma, to manifest himself as narasimhadeva and get out from a coloumn... this does not mean that narasimha is coming from impersonal brahman)

 

why is so necessary to reject or read something different, when lord Krishna says I am Shankar.

...it is only necessary to be precise and say that if krsna is the origin and source of shankara, not necessarily the opposite is also right

 

At the end of the day it is a matter of faith without which no amount of grammar or knowledge will help me.

..in indian tradition there's not a word to be translated with faith in christian sense, or faith opposed to logic and rationality.... in sanskrit we have shraddha.. shraddha is "faith+logic, sentiment+rationality"... to develope only faith is fanaticism, to develope only rationality is not sufficient because we need to love to go on

 

Goswami Tulsidas a great devotee of lord Ram, had all the praise for lord Shiva, this did not take his devotion away from Lord Ram

..a vaishnava prays siva as a great vaishnava.. and the lord is more happy to hear that the vaishnavas are praised than that he is praised. As the opposite he forgive when he is blasphemed but not when a devotee is blasphemed.

 

jaya sri krsna bhagavan

[Guest guest]

God is one, do dubt about it. I think The Lord is the only who knows why the religions of the heart are (apparently)so diveded

[Guest guest]

contrast between religions is the perverted version of the natural relationship's variety eternally present in vaikunta

 

contrasts cannot be solved taking off the necessary discriminations

 

of course everything is on dialogue's plane and not violence