Lord is One

[Guest guest]

Re

(..not if you ask specifically to see the house without the proprietor)

yes if someone thought the proprietor and the house(brahman)is eternal the creator, either way you find out when you get to the house.

 

... i do not agree.. if you want to see the brahman and not krishna, krishna does not appear.... i do not see any logic in krishna appearing if i want to negate his existence

 

if when brahman is searched also krsna appears, it would be like negating the existence of it

 

merging with the one is possible... and in the one (=only one being) there's no vision of something else.. neither god

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

 

Re

(... i do not agree.. if you want to see the brahman and not krishna, krishna does not appear.... i do not see any logic in krishna appearing if i want to negate his existence)

 

Fine do not agree, but see what Shree Krishna says

Absorbed in Brahman, the serene one neither grieves nor desires; becoming impartial to all beings, one obtains My supreme devotion. (18.54)

 

 

 

RE

 

(if when brahman is searched also krsna appears, it would be like negating the existence of it)

 

How did you work this out?

Is brahman and bhagvan two different entity?

If you see the sunrays does the sun disappear?

 

RE

(merging with the one is possible... and in the one (=only one being) there's no vision of something else.. neither god)

 

Here is what Lord Shree Krishna says

 

One attains peace in whose mind all desires enter without creating any disturbance, as river waters enter the full ocean without creating a disturbance. One who desires material objects is never peaceful. (2.70)

One who abandons all desires and becomes free from longing and the feeling of 'I' and 'my' attains peace. (2.71)

O Arjuna, this is the Braahmee or superconscious state. Attaining this (state), one is no longer deluded. Gaining this state, even at the end of one's life, a person attains oneness with the Supreme. (2.72)

 

 

The person whose mind is always free from attachment, who has subdued the mind and senses, and who is free from desires, attains the supreme perfection of freedom from (the bondage of) Karma through renunciation. (18.49)

Learn from Me briefly, O Arjuna, how one who has attained such perfection realizes Brahman, the supreme state of knowledge. (18.50)

Endowed with purified intellect, subduing the mind with resolve, turning away from sound and other objects of the senses, giving up likes and dislikes; and (18.51)

Living in solitude, eating lightly, controlling the thought, word, and deed; ever absorbed in yoga of meditation, and taking refuge in detachment; and (18.52)

Relinquishing egotism, violence, pride, lust, anger, and desire for possession; free from the notion of "my", and peaceful; one becomes fit for attaining oneness with Brahman. (18.53)

 

 

I am in no way recommending advaita, only that these goals are legitimate practices in the shastra

 

 

 

 

The Blessed Lord said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who realize the Self. Some are inclined to understand Him by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others are inclined to know Him by devotional work. (3.3)

 

And I have no qualification for either, until then I take refuge in chanting his names.

 

Jai Shree Krishna Jai shiv Shanker

 

 

[Guest guest]

Fine do not agree, but see what Shree Krishna says

Absorbed in Brahman, the serene one neither grieves nor desires; becoming impartial to all beings, one obtains My supreme devotion. (18.54)

.....this is not the behaviour of the advaitist, serenity, impartiality, the advaitist says that krsna is maya. to reach krsna is natural that it is required a positive behaviour towards him. (and this is for all the bhagavad gita verses that you have brought from gita... they have nothing to do with advaitism and mayavadism)

 

(if when brahman is searched also krsna appears, it would be like negating the existence of it)

How did you work this out?

Is brahman and bhagvan two different entity?

...i apologize for my mistake... i was speaking of oneness as i did at the end of message... if oneness is possible, if you search oneness and you find another subject, god, it is like to say that oneness is impossible

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

 

Re

(.....this is not the behaviour of the advaitist, serenity, impartiality, the advaitist says that krsna is maya.)

 

 

So what is the behaviour of the advaitist?

let us not judge as to what they think.

how do they behave?

 

Re

(and this is for all the bhagavad gita verses that you have brought from gita... they have nothing to do with advaitism and mayavadism)

 

Does Lord Krishna speak of impersonal realization of brahman or not?

 

Re

(... if oneness is possible, if you search oneness and you find another subject, god, it is like to say that oneness is impossible)

 

this precisely what Krishna says

 

The Blessed Lord said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who realize the Self. Some are inclined to understand Him by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others are inclined to know Him by devotional work. (3.3)

 

It is a matter of choice if one is searching for personal god or his/her impersonal brahman.

we all get there eventualy.

Just as we are stuck in this dark tunnel of material life, as we search for the light, at the end of the tunnel, when we see the sunlight the sun will also be there

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

So what is the behaviour of the advaitist?

..it is easy to see also in this forum... for advaita brahman is the absolute and the forms of god are created by maya. In this way they cannot find what they negate

 

It is a matter of choice if one is searching for personal god or his/her impersonal brahman...

..we have said it many times

 

at the end of the tunnel, when we see the sunlight the sun will also be there

..krsna fulfills our desires, if we want the light of the sun without the sun he will give only the light, He grant us our freedom to search and find what we want. And logically, oneness is one.. not two or many (me, others and god)

 

where's the problem? if there's many paths there's also many goals

 

haribol

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(..it is easy to see also in this forum... for advaita brahman is the absolute and the forms of god are created by maya. In this way they cannot find what they negate)

 

This is not the answer to my question, have look again, i am not questioning their goal in life, but in acheiveing that goal what is their behaviour?

 

 

Re

at the end of the tunnel, when we see the sunlight the sun will also be there

(..krsna fulfills our desires, if we want the light of the sun without the sun he will give only the light, He grant us our freedom to search and find what we want. And logically, oneness is one.. not two or many (me, others and god)

 

The ignorant, not the wise, consider Karma-Samnyasa and Karma-yoga as different from each other. The person who has truly mastered one, gets the benefits of both. (5.04)

 

 

Re

(where's the problem? if there's many paths there's also many goals)

 

Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form.(9.15)

 

No problem, this is the Hindu way

 

Whatever goal a Samnyasi reaches, a Karma-yogi also reaches the same goal. One who sees the path of renunciation and the path of work as the same, really sees. (5.05)

 

 

 

haribol

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

but in acheiveing that goal what is there behaviour?

..offensive.. they negate the personality of god

 

The ignorant, not the wise, consider Karma-Samnyasa and Karma-yoga as different from each other. The person who has truly mastered one, gets the benefits of both. (5.04)

 

.....TRANSLATION

Only the ignorant speak of karma-yoga and devotional service as being different from the analytical study of the material world [sankhya]. Those who are actually learned say that he who applies himself well to one of these paths achieves the results of both.

 

PURPORT

The aim of the analytical study of the material world is to find the soul of existence. The soul of the material world is Visnu, or the Supersoul. Devotional service to the Lord entails service to the Supersoul. One process is to find the root of the tree, and the next to water the root. The real student of Sankhya philosophy finds the root of the material world, Visnu, and then, in perfect knowledge, engages himself in the service of the Lord. Therefore, in essence, there is no difference between the two because the aim of both is Visnu. Those who do not know the ultimate end say that the purposes of Sankhya and karma-yoga are not the same, but one who is learned knows the unifying aim in these different processes.

 

,,,,,,,so none of these two positions is advaita or impersonalist

 

------

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

( ..offensive.. they negate the personality of god)

 

 

Offensive to who?

Do Krishna say this?

 

Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form.(9.15)

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

( ..offensive.. they negate the personality of god)

Offensive to who?

•••if i negate that the personality of god is supreme, if i say that the personality of god is maya.. i am offensive to that person, krishna, vishnu..

 

Do Krishna say this?

•••krsna himself or in many incarnations kills with his hands and weapons who not accept him as the supreme, think also of narasimhadeva

 

Chapter 7. Knowledge of the Absolute

 

TEXT 24

 

avyaktam vyaktim apannam

manyante mam abuddhayah

param bhavam ajananto

mamavyayam anuttamam

 

SYNONYMS

avyaktam--nonmanifested; vyaktim--personality; apannam--achieved; manyante--think; mam--unto Me; abuddhayah--less intelligent persons; param--supreme; bhavam--state of being; ajanantah--without knowing; mama--My; avyayam--imperishable; anuttamam--the finest.

 

TRANSLATION

Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme.

 

[Guest guest]

CC Adi 7.115

 

Caitanya: One who considers the transcendental body of Lord Visnu to be made of material nature is the greatest offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. There is no greater blasphemy against the Supreme Personality of Godhead

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

RE

(•••if i negate that the personality of god is supreme, if i say that the personality of god is maya.. i am offensive to that person, krishna, vishnu..)

 

 

I do not think anyone is saying god is maya.

 

Is Shankracharya offensive?

Is Budhha offensive?

Please give a simple answer yes or no, do not try to fudge the answer

 

Re

(Do Krishna say this)

 

My question was in relation to BG 3.3, but this is your style you change the point of discussion.

 

Re

(•••krsna himself or in many incarnations kills with his hands and weapons who not accept him as the supreme, think also of narasimhadeva)

 

 

god I know is very merciful, he never kills anyone, simply because someone does not accept his authority.

In this case we should all have to be killed are we not the rebel souls that rejected his authority?

Even if he kills there is no loss he liberates those souls he kills.

Think of Narasimhdeva, yes why not the most merciful Jaya nara hari.

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

I do not think anyone is saying god is maya.

---i think yes... see the advaitist opinion even in this forum

 

 

Is Shankracharya offensive?

Is Budhha offensive?

--they would be offensive if we did not know from the acharyas that they have made some form of religion to give some help also to the atheists or pseudo atheists. So they are apparently offensive.. for a good purpose

 

god I know is very merciful, he never kills anyone, simply because someone does not accept his authority.

--if killing exist as activity, it cannot come from everything else but god. And because god is most mercyful, to be killed by god is another way to receive the mercy

 

In this case we should all have to be killed are we not the rebel souls that rejected his authority?

--yes, we would have to be killed... if we will be still here when kalki avatara will come we surely will have some problem with his sword

 

Even if he kills there is no loss he liberates those souls he kills.

Think of Narasimhdeva, yes why not the most merciful Jaya nara hari.

---of course... to be liberated it requires to be a big devotee or a big demon.. not a little one like we are now

 

jaya sri nrsmhadeva

 

(My question was in relation to BG 3.3, but this is your style you change the point of discussion.

--you are free to not like my style)

[Guest guest]

"TRANSLATION

Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme. "

 

 

Lord says that his higher nature is changeless and supreme and that unintelligent know me as form and personality.

 

So, which is the higher state? The changeless one or the personality.

 

Oh, Mr. Personality, Mr. Variety, Mr. Many Colours and Mr. Guest. You are unintelligent about whom the Lord refers.

 

 

Atanu

 

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

 

Re

( So they are apparently offensive.. for a good purpose)

 

 

Your statement is contradictory, if good cause is for them to follow god in one form or the other how then it become offensive?

If you deceive someone and then condemn him or her for getting deceived where is the logic in that?

 

 

Re

(--if killing exist as activity, it cannot come from everything else but god. And because god is most mercyful, to be killed by god is another way to receive the mercy)

 

 

Are we talking of killing ability of the lord?

You stated krishna will kill anyone who do not accept him as supreme. And I ask why?

You also agreed god gives oneness in your other posts, now you have changed your stand and say he will kill anyone who do not accept him as supreme.

 

Re

(--yes, we would have to be killed... if we will be still here when kalki avatara will come we surely will have some problem with his sword)

 

 

Yes for those who are miscreants who are demons , but why anyone who may be good but does not know who god is?

He does not kill anyone without a reason.

 

Re

(---of course... to be liberated it requires to be a big devotee or a big demon.. not a little one like we are now)

 

I said liberation after being killed by the lord.

 

Now you are saying he only kills big demon…

Before that you said anyone who does not accept him as supreme.

 

Tell us which one do you mean?

 

 

 

 

"Bg 9.15

Others, who engage in sacrifice by the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, as diverse in many, and in the universal form

 

 

The Blessed Lord said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who realize the Self. Some are inclined to understand Him by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others are inclined to know Him by devotional work. (3.3)

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

Lord says that his higher nature is changeless and supreme and that unintelligent know me as form and personality.

...no.. lord says that the unintelligent believe that this form is "assumed".... the intelligens knows that the form of krsna is god... and the form of god is, under material point of view.. changeless.. and this form is supreme

 

So, which is the higher state? The changeless one or the personality.

...the highest state is "changeless (in that sense)" personality

 

Oh, Mr. Personality, Mr. Variety, Mr. Many Colours and Mr. Guest. You are unintelligent about whom the Lord refers.

...so the variety is real.... there's god, there's me the idiot and you the scientist.... one, two, three!!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Your statement is contradictory, if good cause is for them to follow god in one form or the other how then it become offensive?

If you deceive someone and then condemn him or her for getting deceived where is the logic in that?

....simply there's different levels.... better than complete materialist is buddhism, who at least follows the ahimsa principle. better than buddhism there's advaita.. who at least recognize that everything is spiritual..... then there's further progress

 

You stated krishna will kill anyone who do not accept him as supreme. And I ask why?

...to liberate him from that sin.... but he has to be a very great demon, not a little one like us

 

You also agreed god gives oneness in your other posts, now you have changed your stand and say he will kill anyone who do not accept him as supreme.

...he kills great, very big demons.... the little demons are killed automatically by material energy. Advaita realization, oneness in brahman is possible... but we follow after some time... and maya takes control of us

 

Yes for those who are miscreants who are demons , but why anyone who may be good but does not know who god is?

...if we are fallen in this world, it is because we wanted to forget god... so we all are demons (= a-sura... not saint) and miscreants

 

Now you are saying he only kills big demon…

...personally

 

Before that you said anyone who does not accept him as supreme.

...by maya.. material energy.. we do not recognize his supremacy, we remain in the material world... and krsna kills us

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(....simply there's different levels.... better than complete materialist is buddhism, who at least follows the ahimsa principle. better than buddhism there's advaita.. who at least recognize that everything is spiritual..... then there's further progress)

 

Wow, now they are not offensive, that is very good! They also progress further, nice also.

 

 

Re

(...to liberate him from that sin.... but he has to be a very great demon, not a little one like us)

 

So why make a statement he kills anyone who do not accept him as supreme?

 

 

Re

(...he kills great, very big demons)

 

Yes because they are disturbance to society, and the lord takes different forms to kill them, it is also a sport for the lord.

 

 

Re

(.... the little demons are killed automatically by material energy.)

 

Who is killing what? What is actually dying?

 

Demons are those who thinks they are this body, they think there is no other life beyond, so let me grab everything and enjoy

 

This is temporary material world full of misery, Gautam Buddha recognized this, renounced the world and meditated and got enlightened and many people follow him, sankracharya reestablished the Vedas neither of them teaches us that we are this body. If people follow them how can you call them demons? Or offensive?

Buddhists say budham saranam gachyami. Now Lord Buddha is eternal if his followers do not go to him where would they go?

 

 

RE

Advaita realization, oneness in brahman is possible... but we follow after some time... and maya takes control of us)

 

Have a look what you said earlier “who at least recognize that everything is spiritual..... then there's further progress”

 

 

 

Re

(...if we are fallen in this world, it is because we wanted to forget god... so we all are demons (= a-sura... not saint) and miscreants)

 

There are two types of human beings in this world: the divine, and the demonic. The divine has been described at length, now hear from Me about the demonic, O Arjuna. (16.06)

 

Get things in perspective prabhu lord says there are two types of humans

 

 

Re

(...by maya.. material energy.. we do not recognize his supremacy, we remain in the material world... and krsna kills us )

 

 

 

Just as the Atma acquires a childhood body, a youth body, and an old age body during this life, similarly Atma acquires another body after death. The wise are not deluded by this.

 

O Arjuna, how can a person who knows that the Atma is indestructible, eternal, unborn, and imperishable, kill anyone or cause anyone to be killed? (2.21)

 

 

Krishna is kind he fulfills our desires, he does not kill us.

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

Wow, now they are not offensive, that is very good! They also progress further, nice also.

..the progress is not for the offensive ones..

 

So why make a statement he kills anyone who do not accept him as supreme?

..if one's a big demon.. he kills directly... if one's a little demon... he kills through material energy

 

Who is killing what? What is actually dying?

..it is clear that the death applies only to material bodies... why are you asking?

 

Demons are those who thinks they are this body, they think there is no other life beyond, so let me grab everything and enjoy

..and also who, even if believing that he's not the body, negates deliberately the divinity of krsna and the existence of a personal god. And ultimately all of us are A-SURAS... if we were SURAS we were in vaikunta

 

If people follow them how can you call them demons? Or offensive?

..if one deliberately negates the supremacy of the personal god, and the divinity of krsna he's offensive... because he offends krsna. If one, innocently, being in complete materialist state, accepts ahimsa and that we are spirit he makes great advancement

 

Now Lord Buddha is eternal if his followers do not go to him where would they go?

...buddha's followers are not following buddha.. they're following the nichilism taught by buddha and consider him one of the realized entities, not a special one, or their deity or goal. So they do not go to buddha.

 

Have a look what you said earlier “who at least recognize that everything is spiritual..... then there's further progress”

...further progress that has to be followed by another progress, accepting the supremacy of a personal god then that the supreme is krsna.. otherwise progress turns in regress

 

Get things in perspective prabhu lord says there are two types of humans

..the divine ones only apparently belong to this world and only apparently are common humans. They do not come here by karma, but they come from vaikunta to save us... and they recognize krsna, the supreme personality of godhead. Even krsna or siva walks in this planet, but, simultaneously, they do not leave the spiritual dimension, they are not subjected to the matter

 

Krishna is kind he fulfills our desires, he does not kill us.

...if our desire is to remain in this world.. he kills us and we take another birth here (krsna is the master, the creator and sustainer of the karma law.. if we die, who kills us if not krsna?)

 

Chapter 10. The Opulence of the Absolute

 

TEXT 34

 

mrtyuh sarva-haras caham

udbhavas ca bhavisyatam

kirtih srir vak ca narinam

smrtir medha dhrtih ksama

 

SYNONYMS

mrtyuh--death; sarva-harah--all-devouring; ca--also; aham--I am; udbhavah--generation; ca--also; bhavisyatam--of the future; kirtih--fame; srih vak--beautiful speech; ca--also; narinam--of women; smrtih--memory; medha--intelligence; dhrtih--faithfulness; ksama--patience.

 

TRANSLATION

I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[atanu]

"TRANSLATION

Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme. "

 

 

You say:

 

...the highest state is "changeless (in that sense)" personality”

 

 

 

This is your interpolation and your extrapolation. Whether changeless and personality are synonymous? Which dictionary?

 

 

Rather the “changeless supreme” is the repository of all possible personalities.

 

 

You say:

 

“...so the variety is real.... there's god, there's me the idiot and you the scientist.... one, two, three!!”

 

 

You also say in reply to Shri Ganesh Prasad Ji:

 

“.... Advaita realization, oneness in brahman is possible... but we follow after some time... and maya takes control of us”

 

 

Now we are back to the square one; the hallmark of achyntya philosophy. On the one hand, Advaita realization, oneness in Brahman is possible --- but as Maya has taken control of us so we say: “there's God, there's me the idiot and you the scientist.... one, two, three!!” Knowing fully well that “one, two, three!!”, is on account of Maya.

 

 

Now you will say Maya is eternal. For you, yes. You will ever remain in the snares.

 

 

 

By the way it is Maya that makes you think: “there's me the idiot”. Actually you are the coolest and the greatest sophist.

 

 

You have also stated that some one has claimed that God is Maya. Can you refer to the exact thread and the exact sentence.

 

 

Regards,

 

Atanu

 

[Guest guest]

Advaita is possible - you fuse into Brahman - and experience peace, bliss etc...but you end up desiring relationship and so fall back down to the material world in order to find the REAL form of God (i.e. personal form)...

 

Then, if u realise Krishna, u go to the spiritual world - AND FROM THERE THERE IS NO RETURN...

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

RE

(..the progress is not for the offensive ones.. )

 

Make your mind up prabhu, if you can not mean what you write why right this; (....simply there's different levels.... better than complete materialist is buddhism, who at least follows the ahimsa principle. better than buddhism there's advaita.. who at least recognize that everything is spiritual..... then there's further progress)

 

 

 

Who is killing what? What is actually dying?

RE(..it is clear that the death applies only to material bodies... why are you asking?)

 

Very simple anyone who is seriously on spiritual path knows this fact that he is not this body and you keep on talking of death and Krishna killing.

 

RE

(..and also who, even if believing that he's not the body, negates deliberately the divinity of krsna and the existence of a personal god.)

 

Who is deliberately negates Krishna, if they are then the blame lies, not the followers but the one who gave us that concept of god.

 

Re

(And ultimately all of us are A-SURAS... if we were SURAS we were in vaikunta)

 

this is another subject altogether, in any case free will can not be termed as Suras or Asuras.

 

 

 

Re

(..if one deliberately negates the supremacy of the personal god, and the divinity of krsna he's offensive... because he offends krsna.)

 

Lord Krishna can not be offended. Offence is in your eyes only, he has never said anywhere offensive about brahman realization nor has he said anything about Lord Buddha

 

Nor does the Supreme Spirit assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge. Bg.5.15

 

 

Re

(If one, innocently, being in complete materialist state, accepts ahimsa and that we are spirit he makes great advancement)

 

if you are in complete materialist state there is no chance of you accepting ahimsa and only sprit they accept is the one you get in the pubs.

Yes if a great personality like Buddha or Sankracharya comes then they convince the genral public

 

 

 

 

 

Re

(...buddha's followers are not following buddha.. they're following the nichilism taught by buddha and consider him one of the realized entities, not a special one, or their deity or goal. So they do not go to buddha.)

 

What ever it seems you know better then, all those followers either they are folloing Lord Buddha or his teachings and I also know that they chant Buddham saranam gachyami.

 

Re

Get things in perspective prabhu lord says there are two types of humans

(..the divine ones only apparently belong to this world and only apparently are common humans. They do not come here by karma, but they come from vaikunta to save us... and they recognize krsna, the supreme personality of godhead.)

 

 

Get real, you are trying to give a complete new meaning to what Krishna is saying in Gita about two types of humans, I suggest you go and read Gita again

 

O Arjuna, My Prakriti (or the material nature) is the womb wherein I place the seed (of spirit or Purusha) from which all beings are born. (14.03)

Whatever forms are produced in all different wombs, O Arjuna, the great Prakriti is their (body-giving) mother, and the Purusha is the (seed or life-giving) father. (14.04)

Sattva or goodness, Rajas or activity, and Tamas or inertia; these three Gunas (or states) of mind (or Prakriti) bind the imperishable soul to the body, O Arjuna. (14.05)

Of these, Sattva, being calm, is illuminating and ethical. It fetters the embodied being, the Jeevaatma or Purusha, by attachment to happiness and knowledge, O Arjuna. (14.06)

O Arjuna, know that Rajas is characterized by intense (selfish) activity and is born of desire and attachment. It binds the Jeeva by attachment to the fruits of work. (14.07)

Know, O Arjuna, that Tamas, the deluder of Jeeva, is born of inertia. It binds by ignorance, laziness, and (excessive) sleep. (14.08)

O son of Prtha, in this world there are two kinds of created beings. One is called the divine and the other demoniac. I have already explained to you at length the divine qualities. Now hear from Me of the demoniac. (16.6)

 

 

Re

(Even krsna or siva walks in this planet, but, simultaneously, they do not leave the spiritual dimension, they are not subjected to the matter)

 

We are in complete agreement here.

 

 

Re

Krishna is kind he fulfills our desires, he does not kill us.

(...if our desire is to remain in this world.. he kills us and we take another birth here (krsna is the master, the creator and sustainer of the karma law.. if we die, who kills us if not krsna?)

 

I stand by what I said, only change that takes place is the material body

We are forced to vacate this body because in due course of time it can not fulfil our desires there for Krishna who is sooo kind makes other arrangement for the soul

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

"TRANSLATION

Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme. "

 

 

Lord says that his higher nature is changeless and supreme and that unintelligent know me as form and personality.

 

So, which is the higher state? The changeless one or the personality.

 

Oh, Mr. Personality, Mr. Variety, Mr. Many Colours and Mr. Guest. You are unintelligent about whom the Lord refers.

"

 

 

This word jugglery interpretation makes no sense. In the same chapter, verse 7 he says there's nothing higher than him, so it makes no sense to make some imaginary interpretation of verse 24 to mean there's something higher than him. Again in verses 13 and 25 he says he's avyayam, avyayam applies to him alone.

 

The unintelligent don't know about his higher nature, that he's changeless. They think he was born and assumed that form.

 

gita 2.28

 

avyaktadini bhutani

vyakta-madhyani bharata

avyakta-nidhanany eva

tatra ka paridevana

 

All created beings are unmanifest in their beginning, manifest in their interim state, and unmanifest again when they are annihilated. So what need is there for lamentation?

 

gita 4.9

 

janma karma ca me divyam

evam yo vetti tattvatah

tyaktva deham punar janma

naiti mam eti so 'rjuna

 

One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna

[Guest guest]

"Whether changeless and personality are synonymous? Which dictionary?

"

 

param bhavam, avayayam, anutamam, to whom do these words apply to in the verse? Answer = Krishna. The higher nature which is changeless and supreme is Krishna's, and needless to say, he is a person. His personality is changeless and supreme. param bhavam...MAMavyayam anuttamam

 

 

"Rather the “changeless supreme” is the repository of all possible personalities"

 

Where does krishna say that?

 

 

"Now you will say Maya is eternal. For you, yes."

 

 

Maya isn't eternal?

[Guest guest]

RE

(..the progress is not for the offensive ones.. )

Make your mind up prabhu, if you can not mean what you write why right this; (....simply there's different levels.... better than complete materialist is buddhism, who at least follows the ahimsa principle. better than buddhism there's advaita.. who at least recognize that everything is spiritual..... then there's further progress)

----if one innocently think like that.. he makes a progress. If one, informed of the real nature of the absolute, negates it.............

 

Very simple anyone who is seriously on spiritual path knows this fact that he is not this body and you keep on talking of death and Krishna killing.

---simply i do not understand... this subject was useful for our discussion.. that you cannot reach krsna if you do not want expressely and specifically krsna

 

this is another subject altogether, in any case free will can not be termed as Suras or Asuras.

--sura means saint... asura means non saint... that's it

 

Lord Krishna can not be offended. Offence is in your eyes only

----yes.. we take the karma of the offence, not krsna. And the karma of the offence is to be again forgetful of him and to remain in the material world.. this is the result of the offence.

 

Nor does the Supreme Spirit assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge. Bg.5.15

---yes.. and this ignorance makes us remain in the material world... this is the sin, the result of the offence

 

if you are in complete materialist state there is no chance of you accepting ahimsa

----ahimsa is not a great realization (in comparison..), one can be a complete materialist and non violent for non religious reasons

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

 

RE

(----if one innocently think like that.. he makes a progress. If one, informed of the real nature of the absolute, negates it.............)

 

Spiritual life is very serious matter, if the followers of any denomination follows Dharma given by these personalities then the fault lies with them and not the followers. Absolute is described in many ways. Bhagvan Shree Krishna describes this in Gita let alone other Vedic literatures.

 

Re

( ---simply i do not understand... this subject was useful for our discussion.. that you cannot reach krsna if you do not want expressely and specifically krsna)

 

And my point was the various paths that people follow in Vedic tradition knows this fact that we are not this body, so where is the question of being killed.

 

 

Re

(--sura means saint... asura means non saint... that's it)

 

Thank you.

 

Re

( ----yes.. we take the karma of the offence, not krsna. And the karma of the offence is to be again forgetful of him and to remain in the material world.. this is the result of the offence.)

 

Substitute the word offence with desires and you will get a better picture.

 

 

Nor does the Supreme Spirit assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge. Bg.5.15

Re

(---yes.. and this ignorance makes us remain in the material world... this is the sin, the result of the offence)

 

My point for above sloka was to demonstrate that Krishna is not offended by our actions, he does not kill us.

 

Re

( ----ahimsa is not a great realization (in comparison..)

 

Ahimsa is one of the four pillars of the Vedic dharma.

 

Re

(one can be a complete materialist and non violent for non religious reasons)

 

There are a lot of inconstancies in your statement in one instance you claim all of us are demons even though I pointed out that Krishna says there are two types of human creations. And now you are saying even a non-religious person can be non-violent, have you known any materialist demon to be non-violent?

 

Jai Shree Krishna