Fundamental problem in advaita

[Guest guest]

"raghu: "Please answer if Brahman is the only reality and that if parts of Brahman are transient(under maya) then does maya exist apart from Brahman.

 

You must know the Sruti "Purnamidam....". This says that Brahman is perfect, part of Brahman is also perfect. If that is the case then how come part of Brahman come under the influence of Maya. Anything that can be bound with maya cannot be called perfect. That being the case advaita seems to go against the SRUTI"

Any 'advaitin' can answer? "

 

 

This was discussed at lenghth earlier, wherein Zero (or some bahurupi)at last claimed kRishna as personality is the source of the unchanging Nirguna Brahman.

 

But I again repeat here. Maya is Maya. Brahman is unchanging. Amshas assume doership (i.e. amshas assume viewership) and claim changes of personality etc.. Maya is Maya. Maya does not influence Brahman like an image of you in a mirror does not affect the real you.

 

 

In other words, it is about perspective. If viewer is the Lord then there is only Him. But images in the mirror claim separate existence. And that is folly. That is

 

 

Atanu

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"No, there's just too many references from sastra about jivas. "

 

 

WE know that. But Jiva is Siva sans the Maya.

 

By the way, i did not know that "Amsha" in Vedic time meant "dependent". Thanks for enlightening me.

 

 

Atanu

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

Atanu,

 

Be assured I am not Zero or zero is not me.

 

 

But I again repeat here. Maya is Maya. Brahman is unchanging. Amshas assume doership (i.e. amshas assume viewership) and claim changes of personality etc.. Maya is Maya. Maya does not influence Brahman like an image of you in a mirror does not affect the real you.

 

 

In other words, it is about perspective. If viewer is the Lord then there is only Him. But images in the mirror claim separate existence. And that is folly. That is

 

 

So what reaps karmas and what is born and then dies. You say here that amshas assume doership which implies amshas are bound. Amshas as per advaita is part of Brahman. But we have Purnamidam. Anything Purna cannot be affected by maya. Amshas here are affected and so cannot be part of svarupa of Brahman.

 

So in conclusion again you are unable to provide a convincing answer here. All you do here is evading the subject using different words.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

 

WE know that. But Jiva is Siva sans the Maya.

 

 

Which Sruti says this.

 

 

By the way, i did not know that "Amsha" in Vedic time meant "dependent". Thanks for enlightening me.

 

 

Do you people ever read my relevant post fully. Just read ahead in Bhagavad Gita of the same chapter(15) and you will find Lord Krishna mentioning achit(matter), Chit(Jivas) and Paramatma which is different and greater than the other two. So by logic if you want to understand what Lord Krishna is saying then one should read and understand fully what he is saying.

 

At one place while Lord Krishna says that Jivas are HIS amshas, in further consecutive verses of the same chapter he says Paramatma is different and greater than Jivas. The conclusion is that Jivas are different from Paramatma.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Cowardice was probably too strong a word to use, but as vaishnavas think they have all the answers to everything and that they are the only true representatives of the Vedic religion, where were they for an opportunity like this?

 

The reason I chose the example of the parliment of religions is because all the other religions were represented there except Hinduism, which was only represented after Vivekananda's visit. It just goes to show how either unaware of lazy Hindus were back then (and to an extent still are). Now another point I'm making is if you think Kevala Advaita is anti-vedic, then why don't you come out publicly and say so rather than hiding on a msg board? And if you believe Dvaitic Vaishnavism is the only true vedic religion why do you allow "those advaistists" to misrepresent the Vedic religion? Come out publicly and let everyone know your stance and you can debate those advaitists down to the ground...if you even have the confidence, is another matter. I think you're afraid of redicule, more than anything.

 

 

First thing. There are and were great scholars who defeated advaitist scholars thoroughly. Your lack of knowledge on Dvaita scholars does not mean that Dvaitists are lazy, instead it shows your ignorance, hatred and laziness on your part. There are enough Vaishnavas preaching around the world. You can talk about Srila Prabhupada and their associates about preaching Vaishnavism and Vedas and also exposing advaita.

 

 

Well that is simply untrue what you just spoke there, otherwise why do Vaishnavas try to get others to their way of thinking? Isn't that presenting the message of the lord to an unwilling audience? As many are happy in the sampradaya or denomination they belong to. You can see that sort of behaviour on this msg board.

 

Hare Krishnas, who are Vaishnavas try to sell their books to whoever they meet on the streets, even if the person is not interested, they tell the person to take it and give it to somebody else. While it is good to give it to someone else (if not interested) this is not always the case and the person ends up buying the book just to get the HK off his/her back.

 

The Gita itself says not to give this knowledge to those who are unwilling, so maybe the Hare Krishnas are not living up to this point?

 

 

In the previous quote you are accusing Vaishnavas of laziness because they do not preach, and here you are accusing Vaishnavas of doing their preaching work. So you decide what you want vaishnavas to do ?

and...

Who said that Vaishnavas are forcing unwilling people. They are teaching people who are willing.

[Guest guest]

Dear Raghu Ji,

 

 

"Anything Purna cannot be affected by maya"

 

Yes, that is the point. That the amshas are apparently bound, is the Maya. This Maya is overcome by right Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga or Jnana Yoga.Jnana yoga imparts the knowledge that jivas are truly not bound.

 

Who knows why the Lord prefers to keep amshas under the veil of Maya? Possibly, for His enjoyment or possibly out of compassion so that amshas do not permanently forget the whole. Does any one know?

 

But this Maya can be unveiled in 3 ways as stated above and on removal of the ignorance, a jiva will know that the ego that was assuming individulity is Bhandasur -- it simply does not exist.

 

I will repeat what I have said earlier.

 

If you contemplate you will know that your body and your brain are not the real you that says: I exist. Since, otherwise the body-brain would be able to ask for more life at the time of death.

 

Now, knowing this you can engage in vichara and enquire "Who am I?". If I am not this body and not this brain then Who am I?

 

If you persist in vichara and are able to still your mind -- that is if you are able to detach your mind from attachment to objects, you will know that the small I simply does not exist. You will know that there is only one I -- the Lord.

 

That is why I asked has anyone seen or has anyone any evidence of small I?

 

Vichara is a Vedik method. So is intense Bhakti. Intense Bhaktas will also learn the same thing eventually.

 

Advaitins do not say that we are Gods. There cannot be many Gods. Advaitin simply says that there is only one Lord. A Jiva claiming to be God is commiting the sin of association -- that is assuming many Lords. This is a sin in any religion.

 

All methods are His methods.

 

 

Regards,

 

Atanu

 

[Guest guest]

Well, Have you seen you soul? Has anyone seen one? God is seen in various manifestations, but then why individual soul is never seen?

 

if you can see god you can see also the soul.......

[Guest guest]

What you talk about the individual soul...i thought that it is evident simply in life...with life there is soul...

 

now, how can different parts act independently if we are all one unified with no individuality?

 

in any case, guru sadhu sastra all say individual soul exists...how can one deny?

[Guest guest]

because they want to be god.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

"Anything Purna cannot be affected by maya"

 

Yes, that is the point. That the amshas are apparently bound, is the Maya. This Maya is overcome by right Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga or Jnana Yoga.Jnana yoga imparts the knowledge that jivas are truly not bound.

 

 

First you say that amshas are apparently bound and this is maya.

 

Then you say Maya is overcome by right karma.

 

Then the question that follows is, what sees amshas as apparently bound and what overcomes maya.

 

Since amshas are also Brahman they cannot be bound ie amshas cannot even have the maya that it is apparently being bound.

 

If these amshas, ie Brahman, even temporarily imagines itself as different from Brahman and imagines itself bound then amshas are not Purna.

 

So you did not make any sense in your post.

 

 

Who knows why the Lord prefers to keep amshas under the veil of Maya? Possibly, for His enjoyment or possibly out of compassion so that amshas do not permanently forget the whole. Does any one know?

 

 

Well you told that amshas are Brahman above. How can Brahman wish to keep parts of HIMSELF under maya. If parts of Brahman or amshas are under maya it implies parts of Brahman are not Purna. It consequently contradicts the Sruti Purnamidam....

 

 

But this Maya can be unveiled in 3 ways as stated above and on removal of the ignorance, a jiva will know that the ego that was assuming individulity is Bhandasur -- it simply does not exist.

 

 

If Jiva assumes non-existent individuality, then it implies Jiva is not Purna. It further implies that Jiva is not Brahman and that advaita is wrong.

[atanu]

Have you seen yourself? That is the individual soul?

 

Do not ask me, since i have already said that I am a small Jiva and has not seen either God or my soul.

[atanu]

Study these Maha vakyas from Vedas.

 

 

 

Ekam evadvitiyam brahman: Brahman is one, without a second

 

Prajnanam Brahman: Brahman is the supreme knowledge

 

Tat tvam asi: That is what you are

 

Ayam atma brahman: Atman and Brahman are the same

 

Aham brahmasmi: I am Brahman

 

 

Sarvam khalvidam brahman: All of this is Brahman

 

 

Can we ignore these?

 

 

 

Now read from Chapter 13 of Gita

Chapter 13: Creation and the Creator

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The sages have described Him in many ways, in various Vedic hymns, and also in the conclusive and convincing verses of the Brahmasutra. (13.04)

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I shall fully describe the object of knowledge, knowing which one attains immortality. The beginningless Supreme Brahman is said to be neither Sat nor Asat. (13.12)

 

Having hands and feet everywhere; having eyes, head, and face everywhere; having ears everywhere; the creator exists in the creation by pervading everything. (13.13)

 

My note: He pervades you and me.

 

He is the perceiver of all sense objects without the senses; unattached, yet the sustainer of all; devoid of the Gunas, yet the enjoyer of the Gunas. (13.14)

 

Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; He, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of (all) beings. (13.16)

 

My note: Please read again and again, Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings;

 

The light of all lights, He is said to be beyond darkness. He is the knowledge, the object of knowledge, and seated in the hearts of all beings, He is to be realized by the knowledge. (13.17)

 

My note: seated in the hearts of all beings, He is to be realized by the knowledge.

 

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Know that Prakriti and Purusha are both beginningless; and also know that all manifestations and Gunas arise from the Prakriti. (13.19)

 

The Prakriti is said to be the cause of production of physical body and organs (of perception and action). The Purusha (or the consciousness) is said to be the cause of experiencing pleasures and pains. (13.20)

 

The Purusha associating with Prakriti (or matter), enjoys the Gunas of Prakriti. Attachment to the Gunas (due to ignorance caused by previous Karma) is the cause of the birth of Jeevaatma in good and evil wombs. (13.21)

 

The Supreme Spirit in the body is also called the witness, the guide, the supporter, the enjoyer, and the great Lord or Paramaatma. (13.22)

 

My note: the supreme spirit in the body is called the great Lord or Paramatma

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Some perceive God in the heart by the intellect through meditation; others by the yoga of knowledge; and others by the yoga of work (or Karma-yoga). (13.24)

 

Some, however, do not understand Brahman, but having heard (of it) from others, take to worship. They also transcend death by their firm faith to what they have heard. (13.25)

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The one who sees the imperishable Supreme Lord dwelling equally within all perishable beings truly sees. (13.27)

 

My note: True seer is one who sees the Lord equally within all perishable beings

 

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Those who perceive that all works are done by the (Gunas of) Prakriti alone, and thus they are not the doer, they truly understand. (See also 3.27, 5.09, and 14.19) (13.29)

 

My note: Your understanding that you are serving the great Lord is faulty. As it the Prakriti who is the lone doer. And as Prakriti and Purusha are both in the Un-manifest Lord, it is Lord alone who does everything. Your ego says : “I am the greatest servant”

 

When one perceives diverse variety of beings resting in One and spreading out from That alone, then one attains Brahman. (13.30)

 

My note: Only intense Bhakti or Jnana will make one realize the oneness of the diverse variety. Please read it again.

 

When one perceives diverse variety of beings resting in One and spreading out from That alone, then one attains Brahman. (13.30)

 

The imperishable Supreme Self, being beginningless and without Gunas, though dwelling in the body (as Atma) neither does anything nor gets tainted, O Arjuna. (13.31)

As the all-pervading ether is not tainted because of its subtlety, similarly the Self, seated in everybody, is not tainted. (13.32)

 

My note: This answers your query on Purnamidam....

 

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They, who understand the difference between the creation (or the body) and the creator (or the Atma) and know the technique of liberation (of Jeeva) from the trap of Maya with the help of knowledge, attain the Supreme. (13.34)

 

 

 

Now read from Gita Chapter 15

 

Chapter 15: Supreme Spirit

The Supreme Lord said: They (or the wise) speak of the eternal Ashvattha tree having its origin above (in unmanifest Brahman) and its branches below (in the cosmos) whose leaves are the (Vedic) hymns. One who understands this is a knower of the Vedas. (15.01)

 

The branches (of this world tree of Maya) spread below and above (or all over the cosmos). The tree is nourished by the Gunas; sense pleasures are its sprouts; and its roots (of ego and desires) stretch below in the human world causing Karmic bondage. (15.02)

 

My note: Ego (the sense of individuality) and desires cause karmic bondage

 

Neither its (real) form nor its beginning, neither its end nor its existence is perceptible here on the earth. Having cut these firm roots of the Ashvattha tree by the mighty ax of (Jnana and) Vairaagya or detachment; (15.03)

 

My note: the mighty axe of Jnana

 

The goal (of nirvana) should be sought reaching which one does not come back; thus thinking: In that very primal spirit I take refuge from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04)

 

My note: Take refuge in the Primal spirit, which is un-manifest and beginning less but from which this primal manifestation comes forth.

 

Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal. (15.05)

 

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Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

 

My note: Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception.

 

 

Finally I will use your evidence:

 

You have said: “You must know the Sruti "Purnamidam....". This says that Brahman is perfect, part of Brahman is also perfect”

 

So, you yourself say that part of Brahman is perfect. You already have Jnana. That you still believe that you are an individuality is that you rely on your sense organs too much. You believe what your sense organs tell you.

 

And simply asserting that individual soul is evident will not do. Just answer: Have you or anyone seen the individual self (with eyes or without eyes)?

 

Answer Yes or No.

 

Still your mind. Detach from attachments. Give up sense of doership. Do vichara "Who am I?"

 

 

Atanu