Hiranyakasipu Lives Again

[Guest guest]

Barney: I too can post stories of ex ISKON members to defame Prabhupada but what would it serve.

 

Gaura dasa : It would serve to help you find unnecessary fault in Prabhupada, and create a lot of bad karma for yourself.

 

Barney : Anyway here is part of grevience against his master [slave driver]: Prabhupad may not have intended to be a cult leader, but that was what he became.. He demanded radical changes in the appearance, behavior, and entire life of his followers.

 

Gaura dasa : Jesus Christ was referred to having a cult before the word became a negative connotation. Because we have no culture in North America, except a "culture" that kills babies in the womb and eats Mother Cow, of course what Srila Prabhupada introduced to uncivilized barbaric people would seem radical. However, according to pious, older people in India, who still follow Vaisnava dharma strictly, Prabhupada was introducing the culture of the spiritual world to them. Who cares about being accepted by the status quo if they would rather worship D-O-G instead of G-O-D. Of course a lot of changes will be required to change a crow into a swan. Also, Srila Prabhupada allowed his disciples to keep their western dress as American Vaisnavas if it was necessary to do so. He is not the foolish fanatic that you are enviously trying to portray him to be.

 

Barney :The discipleship that he required of his followers, is akin to the authority dynamics common to all cults.

 

Gd: Srila Prabhupada said that Krsna consciousness should be practiced like military discipline. I don't agree with the political agendas of todays military, but one thing they have to accomplish their goals, whetehr they be good or bad is discipline. How can you accomplish anything without discipline ? Prabhupada encouraged his disciples to be "independently thoughtful men" as he said, and did not want any stupid blind followers as you are implying.

 

Barney :He taught his followers to worship and adore him, as they would God.

 

Gd: aisnava philosophy teaches that if one has the qualifications of a bona-fide representative of Lord Krsna, then yes, he should be honored as the dearmost servant of God. Envious materialists can never understand this point , because they cannot understand the life and mentality of someone who is always teaching others to erve Lord Krsna.

 

Barney : Upon his death, he appointed 11 successor gurus from his entourage. These gurus used the guru-format set out by Prabhupad. They encouraged their followers to treat and revere them as God. Prabhupad and his successors all possess the characteristics of charismatic cult leaders.

 

Gd: it's true that most of the gurus accepted a level of worship higher than what their spiritual status could handle, but that was not Prabhupada's fault. One should not imitate the behaviour of a pure devotee, but one should follow his instructions. Not all depended so much on charisma either, but just wanted to help push on Prabhupada's mission by taking up responsibilities in his mission.

 

Barney : Chapter 2, Section D.

Prabhupad, Gurukula Orders

 

1) A list of some of the instructions that were carried out

1. Very young children, as young as four, were separated from their families.

2. Children were very often sent to far away schools where places and people were completely strange to them.

3. These places, which were to be their schools, were not adapted to children's needs, with regards to physical and mental stimulation or health.

4. The teachers under whom the children were charged to for care, held no credentials and were not qualified academically or psychologically.

 

GD: Lord Krsna gives the qualifications to do this service, when one is sincere and intelligent. Prabhupada told us to utilize what we have for Krsna now, and that it wasn't necessary to have to get a university degree , and associate with people who ate meat, and took intoxication as a way of life.

 

Barney : 5. The leadership and teachers treated the children with cold discipline and had them following strict rules and regiments, the same or more stringent than the adults.

6. Prabhupad instructed that children should be taught with love, and that the greatest love was to not be lenient and to enforce the rules, so that the children would be saved from hell. "From five years to fifteen years, all students should be under strict disciplinary order." (BTG Vol 10/11). This pretty much left the children open to any and all forms of punishments, which included physical, emotional and mental abuse.

 

GD: Of course Srila Prabhupada never intended children to be physically, emotionally or mentally abused. That is not love. Some teachers were immature and did not understand this instruction, but it is no fault of Prabhupada's . Many teachers were excellent, and the students are still greatful today for their love. Stop quoting demons to demonize the devotees. You are only revealing your enviousness to everyone by doing this.

 

Barney :There are a number of things which were held as 'normal' by the religion which to the normal society would be defined as abuse and mistreatment, which is how we felt them. Many of these things will be talked about in due time because they were so imprinted on us, and in such a manner, that we were made to think that it was supposed to be that way. Most of these things were very guilt inducing and this is a small sample of them.

 

2) A list of some of the painful rules that were enforced

1. Wake up at 4 am in the morning.

 

GD: Spiritual advancement requires tapasya, or auterity. Ayurveda states that to rise 1 1/2 hours before sunrise is called the brahma mahurta hour, and is the most condicive time of the entire day for the brain to absorb knowledge, pray, and make spiritural advancement, and AYurveda has been accepted by the WOrld Health Organization, so give me a break with your foolish accusations.

2

Barney : Chant, 'meditate' and listen to sermons for hours.

 

GD : The materialists would rather have them chanting and meditatingthe on the sermons and songs of Eninem and Briney Spears as opposed to purifring themselves with the process of sadhana-bhakti.

 

3. Having our heads shaved all of the time (boys).

4. Not being allowed to have any contact with the opposite sex.

 

GD: Prabhupada did not object to this when they were very young , but as one approaches puberty, lust arises in the heart, so he recommended that they keep a healthy distance from the girls otherwise Yajnavalkya teaches that women are like fire and men are like butter.

 

Barney :5. Consistently deprived of food.

 

GD: Most temples provide more than adequate food. There have been instances of neglect.

 

Barney : 6. Denied anything in the way of entertainment and fun.

 

GD: Children were encouraged to run and play and have some sports like any "normal" child. What the envious materialists cannot understand is that the process of Hare Krsna kirtan, and hearing the wonderful pastimes of the sastras , like Mahabharata Krsna book, and Ramayana, is the REAL fun, not killing robots on a computer screen !!??

 

Barney :7. Completely isolated from our western heritage and culture.

 

GD: Prabhupada regarded western culture as the culture of the crows that like to eat the garbage of material life. WHen you're growing a new tree, yu insulate it , to protect it from the bad influences of weeds, bugs and viruses. Western culture is a deviation from the standard norm of Vaisnava dharma, so why encourage them to eat meat, take intoxication , gamble and have illcit sex ?

 

Barney's accusations :Chapter 2, Section E.

Prabhupad, A List of Some of His Responsibilities

 

Here are some factors

1. Prabhupad set up the gurukula schools and ordered parents to send their children away to the gurukulas.

 

GD: The Srimad Bhagavatam states that one whould not even become a parent unless they can guarantee the liberation of their dependents from the cycle of birth and death. Gurukulas have been a part of the ancient Vedic system for centuries, so how can we expect a perosn ignorant of this divine culture to appreciate the value of a child learning humility, and character development in a gurukula.

 

Barney : 2. Prabhupad preached that family and material life were/are illusion and hindrances to spiritual life, while encouraging families to have children - for the 'second generation'.

 

GD: Prabhupada taught that a Krsna conscious famiuly life was very conducive for spiriutal advancement and that people who were acting under the influence of materialism were in illusion, whether they were faily members or not. There is a very nice story in the 7th Canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam which describes how the demon Hiranyakasipu even tried to kill his little son Prahlad, rather than see him become a hare Krsna devotee. He wanted him to be a nasty puffed-up materialist like himself, and hated Lord Visnu. History repeats itself Barney with the comments you are quoting.

 

BArney : 3. Prabhupad was in a leadership position, and he appointed and/or passively accepted the appointment of the people who abused us to positions of leadership and control over children.

 

GD: Srila Prabhupada gave his disciple the benefit of the doubt that they would do a good job caring for the children. Some did, and some didn't.

 

Barney : 4. He ordered children to be sent away by their parents, and did not implement any system that was meant to assure that children were going to be well looked after.

 

GD: If you go through the letters sent to Jagadisa and Satsvarupa Maharaja, you will see that their are so many quotes on how this was to be done. Their is no fualt on Prabhupada's side.

 

Barney quoting a former Gurukula student Attack : Chapter 3

For Us as Children Prabhupad/Iskcon Are Connected

 

Prabhupad and Iskcon have been fundamentally linked for us. We grew up in Iskcon, and Prabhupad is the founder of Iskcon and its cultural aspects. Although Prabhupad, to our knowledge, was never personally abusive, he does in our minds share some of the responsibility for our experiences as children. We agree that he was sincere in what he was he was trying to do, but we also have to look at the fact that we were suffering inside what was supposedly to be a haven from suffering.

 

GD: Prabhupada was busy writing the Drimad Bhagavatam at 1 AM everyday to provide books that would save the world for the next 10,000 years. It is very unfortunate that some of the children were not cared for properly, and that has been apologized for, and amends are being made. There were deficiencies in many areas. Prab hupada was doing an amazing thing in his 80s that no other human could possibly have attempted. WE also have to take into account that we each have our individual karma, and we would receive it, whether we were in the Hare Krsna movement or not. By becoming a devotee , we minimize the karma we would receive for our sins. This is not justification for any abuse made against the shildren. They should and must always be protected, but let's see the bigger picture here.

 

Barney :Proponents to protect Prabhupad say that we should be absolutely clear that behavior of our guardians in gurukula should in no way reflect on Prabhupad. According to them Prabhupad had no responsibility in the matter. This would seem to leave us with an either or situation; either we should say that Prabhupad is to be lumped in with the other 'demons', or he is kind benevolent and merciful and with no responsibility; but we are saying neither. We see that serious mistakes were made that led to severe abuse and negligence. It is impossible not to assign some responsibility to Prabhupad. We will look at what happened from three vantage points; circumstantial, philosophical, and emotional.

 

GD: A pure devotee is faultless. He is always trying to serve Lord Krsna to the best of his ability. Even if there appears to be a fualt in Srila Prabhupada, there is not, because it was never his intention that these children not be cared for in a loving way, as he personally treated them. Ask any parent who had a child that Prabhupada met, and they will confirm that. Prabhupada trusted his diciples to care for the dhildren nicely. As mentioned , he was writing many books, traveled the world 17 times in twelve years to care for the devotees and temples, answered thousands of letters, and it was not possible for him to deal with every situation in a detailed way. He left that up to his temple presidents. On one morning walk he saw one of our ladies not properly dressed for the cool weather, and he told Kaladri prabhu, that as the temple president, you should make sure that all the devotees have sufficient cloth, and he gave his own chadder to her. Give Prabhupada a break ! It is most unfortunate what happened to many gurukulis, but there are many that have graduated , like Vedasara prabhu, who themselves have become wonderful Gurukula teachers, and have wonderful stories to tell, and are still doing great service to Srila Prabhupada's gurukulas in Mayapura, Vrndavana, and other places in the world. Forget the Rolling Stones song "Paint It Black " and try to see how things are improving.