Was Karna the greatest archer?

[Guest guest]

Is it true that Karna was the greatest archer of that time followed by Ekalaiva, and that Arjuna was behind them? It seems to make sense, since arjuna never really defeated karna fair and sqaure, and also karna could've killed him on many occasions, had it not been for the Lord himself manipulating teh chariot, sunset etc.

 

All in all, karna, despite losing his kavaca, making impossible promises et al, still managed to have the upper hand during most of the battle with arjuna. And also, many of astras nearly killed arjuna and without the Lord's help, he could've been a goner. Whereas, arjuna never really troubled karna even once during the whole time, and even when he eventually prevailed, it wasn't a very convincing victory either.

 

Why then do people say arjuna was the greatest archer, when clearly it was karna? Also, Ekalaiva must've been better than arjuna, otherwise why would Drona ask for his finger? Another thing is, people say Bhima was the strongest, whereas Balarama himself admits that Duryodhana was the best in combat, better than bhima and as strong as balarama himself. Can someone throw some light on this? Was this bias on the part of pro-pandava sources to make all pandavas look good and kauravas weak? Thanks.

[Guest guest]

From what I know, Arjuna was the greatest archer, because that was the opinion of the expert himself, Dronacarya.

 

Yes, Karna could've killed him if it wasn't for Krishna, but that only shows how Karna could've matched Arjuna, not overpowered him...when the Pandavas saved Duryodhana from beng killed by Gandharvas, Arjuna could have killed Karna then and there...so it works both ways...

 

As for Bhima and Duryodhana, it is true that Bhima is stronger, but Duryodhana is more skilled in mace moves...that was the conclusion of Balarama...

 

There is no bias, it is evident from Mahabharata that the Pandavas were superior...there is no need for any accusation of bias...Drona and Bhishma, who were fighting for the Kauravas themselves admitted Arjuna's supremacy...

 

In fact, Duryodhana admitted near the end that deep down the only reason he went to battle was because he thought the Danavas would help him...otherwise he knew Pandavas were stronger...

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Let's see this step by step, instead of saying Drona believed so and so, and all that. Krishna himself was afraid to let Arjuna face Karna, so does that mean we should take his word instead of Drona's?? NO, let's see for ourselves.

 

Before the battle began, Arjuna lost nothing, whereas karna had lost his kavaca. Arjuna didn't have to make difficult promises, but Karna had to. Arjuna had no curse on him, Karna did. Arjuna had the lord himself as charioteer, whereas karna had an incompetent Salya, who got the wheels into the pit. In short, as the battle was about to begin, Arjuna had all the advantages working in his favor, whereas misfortune was hounding Karna. So if Arjuna were the greatest, add to that all the odds were in his favor, he should've defeated karna quite easily.

 

Yet,

 

1) Arjuna couldn't kill Karna fair and square

 

2) Arjuna couldn't even trouble Karna during the entire battle

 

3) Arjuna had no clue to Karna's astras

 

4) Arjuna escaped twice, once owing to sunset and then due to krishna's efforts

 

5) Arjuna could kill Karna only by breaking the code, hardly the way a top gun would win

 

So I reiterate: All evidence points to Karna as the greatest. Also in MB, Arjuna is often compared to a fish, whereas Karna is compared to a whale to illustrate that even a tiny fish could defeat a whale, in Krishna's presence. So obviously, that shows Karna was far superior. There is no other proof that arjuna was an equal, except Bhisma says so, or Drona says so, and all that.

[Guest guest]

arjuna is the greatest because he's under the protection of the supreme personality of godhead bhagavan sri krsna

[maadhav]

sure, he just did not show it in his lila.

 

he used sudarshan, the ultimate weapon.

 

if you have sudarshan, you would not use bow and arrows.

 

[Guest guest]

Who's Sudarsan and why and what didnt he reveal in his lila??? It is confusing.

[Guest guest]

After attaining a certain stage of development, they begin to dissipate their energies in preaching, in making disciples, in publishing books. They become the slaves of name and fame. That is the reason why they fail to reach the highest goal of life, viz., Brahma Sakshatkar.

 

There is no use of running hither and thither in search of realized men. Even if Lord Krishna remains with you, He cannot do anything for you, unless you are fit to receive Him. Realize this point well and purify yourself by Nishkamya Karma Yoga, charity, concentration, meditation, Japa, Brahmacharya and control of senses.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Your points are interesting, however, you seem to just dismiss the views of the authorities...

 

Even if we have a perfect copy of Mahabharata, we still cannot interpret and speculate who was better. We must take the word of the authorities involved...

 

Drona, Bhishma etc are the authorities - what more proof do we need?

 

For example, we may be able to observe an operation in a hospital, and it may seem like the doctor is doing something wrong...but the authority, the senior doctors, are ascertaining that the doctor is doing what is right...

 

Anyway, one can use the logic behind your argument to simply change the conclusion...

 

Your argument: Because Krishna was there to protect Arjuna, that is the real reason why Arjuna won, otherwise Karna would have killed him...

 

Well using the same logic, I could say, Krishna made it seem like Arjuna would've lost had it not been for Krishna, so that the moral lesson of the Mahabharata i.e. that devotees of God will always prosper, would be clearly demonstrated...

 

 

[Guest guest]

Have you ever read mahabharatha?

 

This is the first question that comes to my mind after reading your naive question.Arjuna was the undisputed archer of that time,skilled than bhishma,drona,kriuba or karna.This is amply demonstrated in many places.

 

Once such instance is arjuna's fight with gauravas at vrad desh.There arjuna charioted by uthrakumar faced drona,bhishma,karna,ashwathama and kriba.Further they had a huge army.But single handedly arjuna defeated them all.HAvent you read this?

 

After this victory pandavas removed thier disguise and utharkumar became a valiant warrior seeing arjuna in action.Krishna wasnt there during that war with arjuna.

 

learn mahabharat please

[Guest guest]

In the gurushektra who was superior karna or arjuna?Man to man it was arjuna.karna had kavash by birth which wasnt there for arjuna.Krishna only created a level playing field by removing that kavash.

 

If karna had divine weapons from parasuram,arjuna had them from lord shiva.And karna had no inhibitions in using them,he had no concern for the after effects of them,but arjuna had.Had he used divine weapons earlier the entire gaurava army would have been defeated in first day itself.

 

And we know that during karnas last fight with arjuna karna forgot all weapons due to parasurama's curse.Had arjuna used divine weapons then karna would have been killed instantly.But arjuna fought fairly.

 

And what's wrong in krishna saving arjuna?Its the job of a charriot rider,to save his master.Karna too had an unparallelled charriot rider,salya.

 

[Guest guest]

1.

Karna had all along had a pathetic personal life didnt know who his parents where . lot of mental pressure.

 

2.

Karna was insulted in the arena as "SUDRA" by pandavas another personal insult.

 

3.

A parasurama cursed him of not remembering the mantras during the crucial time of war

 

4.

Further he was cursed by a brahmana that his chariot wheel would plunge into the land during the war

 

5. Kunti got a boon from him only to kill one of his son. Karna spared during the war saving it for arjuna .

 

6. Biggest of all knowing that he is figthing with his own brother was a deterrent in case of Karna to show his full valor

 

 

You have mentioned that he was born with kavacha. remember Arjuna father Indra helped him a lot and he was the one who disguised as a brahman and got the kavacha .

 

 

If all this wouldnt have happened Karna would have been the un matchable.

Karna was the greates of the two , unfortunately he was with ADHARMA which made all his power go waste

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

<<Karna was insulted in the arena as "SUDRA" by pandavas another personal insult>>>

 

Ekalaiva too was a sudhra.Was that a hindrance?

 

<<<A parasurama cursed him of not remembering the mantras during the crucial time of war>>>

 

He told a lie.was punished.Whose mistake was it?

 

<<<Further he was cursed by a brahmana that his chariot wheel would plunge into the land during the war>>>

 

He did a misatke and was punished.Whose mistake was it?

 

<<<Kunti got a boon from him only to kill one of his son. Karna spared during the war saving it for arjuna >>>

 

Arjuna saved the life of karna and duriyodana during war with kandarva king chitrasena during vanvaas period.Tit for tat,right?

 

<<Biggest of all knowing that he is figthing with his own brother was a deterrent in case of Karna to show his full valor>>>

On the contrary he always tried to kill arjuna.That was a pathetic excuse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Karna defeated the four pandava brothers-yudhistra, bhima, nakula and sahadeva-quite easily and yet he didn't kill them owing to his promise to kunti. Compare this with arjuna, who could only kill karna by breaking the code and not by a fair fight. On the contrary, he was losing to karna throughout the battle, in spite of karna having lost his kavaca, incurring the brahmins curse, parasurama's curse, kunti's promise, salya's indifference, krishna's timely help and host of other factors.

 

In spite of these insurmountable odds, karna was winning throughout the battle, arjuna was helpless and didn't have a clue. Otherwise, why would krishna advise arjuna to kill him unarmed? Because that was the only way to kill karna, or else krishna himself would have said, "Arjuna, since you are the greatest archer, you can defeat karna anytime, so please wait until he is ready." But no, krishna didnt say that, he forced arjuna to kill karna right there, because krishna knew that that was the only opportunity that the helpless arjuna had to kill karna. It wouldve been impossible to defeat him otherwise, krishna knew that. And that;s why he encouraged arjuna to kill an unarmed karna. There was no other way to defeat karna, because he was the best. If karna wasn't the greatest, then arjuna would've killed him in a fair fight. He didn't and krishna himself didn't allow that, because he knew that karna was undefeatable.

[Guest guest]

the point is that codes that are broken in pursuit of a higher purpose don't matter...

 

Arjuna had a higher purpose - serving Krishna, serving God...

 

Karna's purpose? 'I have an obligation to Duryodhana to fight this war'...

 

So let's look at the facts:

 

Arjuna was ALWAYS described as the better archer by all the important authorities, such as Dronacarya, Bhishma, Kripacarya, Krishna, Kritavarma etc...

 

Arjuna saved KArna and Duryodhana in the battle against the Gandharvas...

 

Krishna saved Arjuna from Karna in the Kurukshetra war...what we cannot say is

 

whether

 

a) Krishna saved Arjuna because Arjuna was going to be beaten - thus proving Karna was better than Arjuna...

 

or

 

b) Krishna saved Arjuna to teach the moral lesson that victory comes to the devotee because of God's mercy...in which case Karna is not necessarily superior to Arjuna...

 

 

[Guest guest]

Karna was not the greatest archer.Singlehandedly arjuna defetaed karna,drona,bhishma,aswathama,kriba in the war in vrad desh with utharakumar as his chariot rider.The entire gaurava army lost the war then.

 

Arjuna's war with karna in gurushekthra was no different.There arjuna could have killed karna immediatly had he used the pasupathasthra which lord shiva gave him.But Arjuna never used those holy weapons for concern of the world.

 

Karna escaped only since salya drove the chariot skilfully.And arjuna could not answer only one weapon of karna.It was the weapon which Indhra gave karna.Had arjuna used pasupathasthra karna could not have answered it too.

 

Arjuna would not have killed karna who was stranded in ground.But he was so enraged on karna who cut the bow of abimanyu,from behind during the death of abhimanyu.He took revenge for that then.Had the war continued karna would have been slayed soon.

 

Karna forgeting his divine weapons,getting curse all were results of his misdeeds.Arjuna too did not use his divine weapons against karna.So it was a level playing field.Karna insulted salya and as a result salya walked away.If my enemy is a fool,is it my problem?

[barney]

Karna was son of the Sun God with powers given by Sun God no one could defeat him in battle. In short he has no death. Knowing this Krishna played his lila in stealing away his powers. Indra came in disguise to ask for his kavacha kudalam[golden armour attached to his skin at birth]. As Karna is a giver he did not say no to Indra who was in disguise but Karna was warned by his father the Sun God. He was asked not not use his bramastram on Arjuna, and his mother after discovering that Karna was her son begged him not to harm Arjuna. In the end when the chariot was stuck in the pit and Karna alone trying to bring it out Krishna took the opprotunity by asking Arjuna to strike his arrow on an unarmed Karna. Even towards the end Karna was still alive and Krishna went in disguise to ask for Karna's blood as dhanam which was very cruel and ill minded. So, in short it was a cunning plot orchstrated by Krishna to defeat Karna. There may be a moral to this story but it all comes down to cheat and win. That is the moral of Mahabaratha.

[Guest guest]

Arjuna w2as better. Skill is not only pulling the string. Skill is FOCUS. Dronacarya gave arjuna the best because arjuna's focus was never disturbed. The test was the bird, all the other students described the bird, but arjuna could not. Because he was focused only on the eye of the bird. FOCUS.

 

FOCUS made arjuna arrive late while Krsna was asleep, and duryodhana was at his side. FOCUS placed arjuna at Krsnas feet. FOCUS made arjuna choose Krsna over the entire force of the Yadus.

 

Karna could pull the string better, perhaps. But arjunas decisions during battle were far superior to Karnas. Karna sided with a loser, an offender, and karna knew Krsna could never be on the losing side, yet he had a bad battlefield decision.

 

As far as the cheatin, no such thing in war (as in all things are fair in love and war). But arjuna was better, because he was a better cheater.

 

Understand mahabharata. Understand why duryodhana could not give yudhisthira even enough land to fit on the tip of a pin. Had he given such a piece of land, all the demigods would arrive immediately to pay tribute to the greatest king, yudhisthira, and his miniscule piece of land would surpass all the three worlds in the six opulences.

 

Krsnas cheatin is transcendental pastimes, full of chivalry, and beyond mundane morality.

 

Now who is the better archer? This is easy, the one who survived was, the one killed in the battle had serious flaws.

 

BTW, I am a great fan of Karna, he was the purest of devotees to be able to fight with Krsna.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

And you are right about Duryodhana, too. He reformed completely before passing away in the crystal pond, he heard Bhagavad Gita from the uttama adhikari, Sri Sanjaya, who heard and saw, by Krsnas personal invitation, Krsna personally deliver the song, just as arjuna heard. He cursed the actions against the pandavas by aswattama, he regretted his offenses, and balarama is to Duryodhana as Krsna is to arjuna.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[barney]

It has been done and so be it. They staked their kingdom and lost. To return it or not is the right of Duryodhana. When you have lost your property through gambling you do not have the right to request but may beg or appeal for the return of the lost property. Wagging war against Duryodhana was undharmic and worst Krishna being the initiator and conspirator. Using his trickery to cheat and steal the powers of Karna so that no harm would come to Arjuna. If Arjuna is the greatest warrior why should Krishna help him to defeat Karna and Duryodhana. In his death bed Bishmaar adimitted that Karna was the undestructable being and that was why he placed him to lead the foor soldiers. Know the real meaning of the chronicle of Mahamaratha before deducing.

[Guest guest]

To return the kingdom was not an option of duryodhana, for because of his cheating, a negotiated deal was cut, If the conditions of exile were met, yudhisthira would be reinstated as ksatriya, meaning he was to have a kingdom.

 

Duryodhana renegged, he cheated, he was not the heir, he was not entitled to any kingdom whatsoever. Moreover, he committed all seven capital crimes against the pandavas.

 

But the issue is karna, and he was not the best. A ksatriya would have refused to give his armor on a plea, a ksatriya would have seen through a disguise of Indra, so many flaws. And Karna, if he had ksatriya wisdom rather than emotional attachment to an unworthy friend, would have joined his brothers and ruled righteously.

 

So, I agree that he probably could pull the string better than arjuna, but he had no vision of proper and improper.

 

mahak

[Sephiroth]

Please register. Thank You.

 

4) Arjuna escaped twice, once owing to sunset and then due to krishna's efforts

 

Correction :

 

Arjuna escaped Death a LOT of times with help of Sri Krishna. The sunset part is when Sri Krishna send His disc weapon and covered the sun which was about to set, making it look like the sun already set and Arjuna had lost the bet (he boosted that he could kill one of the Kauraves before sunset OR jump into a bonfire and kill himself).

 

The other one is when Sri Krishna pushed the chariot down into the earth and save Arjuna's head from chopped off by Nagaastra.

 

And WHY didn't Karna use his Nagaastra again? Because Sri Krishna instructed their mother to ask for a boon from Karna that he will not use Nagaastra more than once. THAT is why Karna survived twice from the same weapon.

 

In my opinion, Karna - younger son of the Surya Bhavagan (Sun God, elder brother is Yama) is better than Arjuna. Why?

 

Because even so both Arjuna and Karna shown Sri Krishna's Vishnu Roopa, ONLY Karna receive Moksha from Sri Krishna upon his death.

 

This shows that God do not differenciate sinners and non-sinners, basically because we all are sinners. He differentiate us by the way we conduct our lives and how much good deeds (pooniam) we make.

[Guest guest]

yes, Karna is the greatest archer, but he lost his powers when he yielded the gift of his earrings and armor away to others (the objects with which he was born) including Indra. this was indeed Indra's intent of asking Karna of the panolpy, forseeing the duel between Karna and Arjuna.

 

after all, Karna is Arjuna's elder brother.

 

Ekalavya I think is superior to Arjuna as well.

 

Sikhandin and Krishna were also supreme archers.

 

Dronacharya had stated once that Krishna, Arjuna, and Sikhandin are the 3 supreme archers without a 4th to match them, but I think Dronacharya himself is better than all of them because of his brahmastra.

 

i posted two others posts, go read them. im not a duffer :::::)))))))))

[Sephiroth]

I don't see how Drona could include Sri Krishna into the statement when Sri Krishna never his student in the first place.

 

I believe Ekalavya is the best of them, being born a hunter, learn the art just by concentration alone (unlike the others who learn directly from Drona) and finally did the ultimate "Guru Dakshan" (tribute to the Guru) by cutting his own thumb.

 

I think the lowest is Arjuna, who mastered the skill only because he was the teacher's pet and Drona wanted him as the best student (his own ego).

[Sephiroth]

At the battle with Vrad Desh, the Kauravas wasn't expecting Arjuna, were they?

 

Arjuna was in disguise and therefore, he had the element of surprise in his side. If he used his superior skills toward unprepared opponents, he could win easily before they could suspect his identity.

 

IF Arjuna was a great warrior that he claims to be, he should have taken away his disguise and fight fairly, even so he knew tat the period of exile had finished before he went to battle.

[Guest guest]

these discussions are interesting, but I think you miss the point if you seek to know who is physically/materially the greatest archer. the term "archer" is actually a metaphor for one who can keep greatest concentration on his aim, the Supreme target (i.e. Krishna). Arjuna is by this definition the best archer, because his only love and focus in the world is Krishna. I don't think the material aspect of archery (i.e. who shoots arrows the best) is relevant or even such an important discussion. it's only a side point of interest.

[Sephiroth]

Only way you can say who is the best and who is not is by going back in time and judge them accordingly.

 

As a person who practice martial arts, I believe the strenght and skills of a person depends on how he uses his mental and spiritual strenght in real world, not only in battlefield.

 

By that context, I judge Karna as the best warrior. He faced more problems to Arjuna ever did and came out to the top to receive Moksha from the Lord. He is the winner.