Was Karna the greatest archer?

March 26, 2007

karna was a demon in his past life, this is not just some made up story
it says in vedas. and okay maybe arjun is not really part of narnarayan

but it says in the vedas that nar was the form of arjun and narayan,krishna.

maybe type in sahasra-kunchi in google and see what comes up but maybe not alot, but try other search engines, but other than that i surely do know that it is written in vedas, so Guest443r rsd is actually right. by the way the demon got its name ''sahasrakunchi'' after he got the boon from brahma. sahasra, meaning thousand, and kunchi meaning shield or armour (whatever), so 1000 shields is the translation for its name

Karna was not a DEMON, Krishna was Karna's friend. Forget what the Vedas says. Vedas is not accurate. That is why I do not follow it. It's just a big fraud and story made up by Brahmins. Please do YOUR research. Krishna was a hero and he loved Karna.

ombakth · March 27, 2007

Parashuram had declared that he himself is no longer a Brahmin when he learnt martial arts from Shiva.

http://www.intelindia.com/mahabharat/parusuram.htm

Parashuram wanted to teach the martial arts to low caste people so that they can teach higher caste rulers and brahmins a lesson, whoever misused his rights and powers.

Parashuram was a shraman. Karna did not lied to him. Karna told him that he belongs to a low caste this was the reason why Parshuram taught him martial arts but later on Parashuram came to know that Karna belong to higher caste this was the reason why he cursed Karna.

Karna did not posed as Brahmin. Why these brahmins they keep on poking their nose into things that don't belong to them. Brahims are main cause for the debacle of Dharmic religion. It was because of Brahmins why hindus are not united. It is because of selfishness of Brahmins why Dharmic religion ranks as number 3 among populationwise the world religion. Even Buddha and Mahavira rejected the authority of Brahmins.

Brahmin. Brahmin. Brahmin it is all Brahmah(Mythia). Don't Misunderstand Brahman with Brahmin and Lord Brahma with Brahmah.

There were no demons and things like this. There was an Iranian tribe called Assyrians who were termed as Assuras. Even they were Aryans. They used to pray to Aura Mahzda and used to consider devas as vilians whereas Indo-Aryans and Greek another branch used to consider Devas as heroes whereas Assuras as Villians.

But some Indo-Aryans gave importance to Brahmins whereas Greeks and others rejected the authority of Brahmins.

Vedas were created by many ancient Dharmic Shramans and not Brahmins. Veda was a documentation which used to contain all database of all inventions and researches. Brahmins actually corrupted Vedas by adding all nonsense to it by adding all mythical character. They Diverted the Historical characters into Mythical character due to which now people don't belive in our ancient heroes.

Sri Ram, Sri Krishna were Historical figures. Shri is the termed used for Shriman so it is Shriman Ram and Shriman Krishna which means Mr. Ram and Mr. Krishna.

Sri Krishna very well knew about the surya grahan would occur at that particular time as per astrology. So he made a strategy in which he told Arjuna to announce that Arjuna will commit suicide if he does not manages to kill Jayadratha . Sri Krishna very well knew that Kauravas army will defend Jayadratha in all possible ways, Sri Krishna also knew that if the Kaurava army feels that Arjuna was not capable of killing Jayadratha then Jayadratha will become over confident and hence will be break his defence and come out in open. This was the reason why Sri Krishna asked Arjuna to take such a oath so that Jayadratha comes into open as soon as there will be solar eclipse.

Now Solar eclispe is a phenomenon of Nature and nature was created by God and Sri Krishna was considered as God hence it is obvious people would refer Solar eclipse was created by Sri Krishna. It could be possible that solar eclipse was created by Vishnu and Sri Krishna was the incarnation of Vishnu so it applies as Sri Krishna created Solar eclipse. For. e.g. In Mathematics if Triangle A is equal to Trinagle B and Triangle B is equal to Triangle C then Triangle A is equal to Triangle C.

Parashuram had declared that he himself is no longer a Brahmin when he learnt martial arts from Shiva. Parashuram was trained in Karalipayatuu(Indian Martial Arts). Parashuram kshetra is Kerala and south India.

Parashuram wanted to teach the martial arts to low caste people so that they can teach higher caste rulers and brahmins a lesson, whoever misused his rights and powers.

Parashuram was a shraman. Karna did not lied to him. Karna told him that he belongs to a low caste this was the reason why Parshuram taught him martial arts but later on Parashuram came to know that Karna belong to higher caste this was the reason why he cursed Karna.

Karna did not posed as Brahmin. Why these brahmins they keep on poking their nose into things that don't belong to them. Brahims are main cause for the debacle of Dharmic religion. It was because of Brahmins why hindus are not united. It is because of selfishness of Brahmins why Dharmic religion ranks as number 3 among populationwise the world religion. Even Buddha and Mahavira rejected the authority of Brahmins.

Brahmin. Brahmin. Brahmin it is all Brahmah(Mythia).

There were no demons and things like this. There was an tribe called Assyrians who were termed as Assuras.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Assyria

But some Indo-Aryans gave importance to Brahmins whereas Greeks and others rejected the authority of Brahmins.

rakshasa werewere man-eaters ("Nri-chakshas,Kravyads") or cannibals they are descended from Pulastya, or from Khasa, or from Nirriti and Nirrita.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khasa

The Khasas are an ancient people, believed to be a section of the Indo-Iranians who originally belonged to Central Asia from where they had penetrated, in remote antiquity, the Himalayas through Kashgar and Kashmir and dominated the whole hilly region. They are believed to have given their names to Kashgar, Kashi (Central Asia), Kashkara, Kashmir, Khashali (south-east of Kashmir) Kashatwar and other recognizable colonies at the present day in the hills from Kashmir down to Nepal as also in various plains. A large section of the existing inhabitants of Kumaon and Garhwal belong to the ancient Khasa or Khasiya race and speak 'pahari' which is cognate to rajasthani

This is the reason why Shiva is always protrayed surrounded by Rakshasa tribe. Even they were human tribes.

Karna is stated to have fought and defeated the Khasas, Madrakas, Trigartas, Tanganas, Kulindas, Kambojas, Ambasthas and the Kaikeyas and had collected tribute from them for Duryodhana

Krishna is also said to have defeated the Khasas of diverse realms along with other tribes like Kasmirakas, Aurasikas, Pisachas, Kambojas, Trigartas, Malavas, Daradas, Sakas, Yavanas. This evidence indicates that there were several settlements of the Khasas

The nationas so named include the Khasas, Paradas, Kulindas and Tanganas among others. This indicates that the Khasas of the early period lived to the north of Kashmir, west of Tibet, probably in Sinkiang province of China.

Vedas were created by many ancient Dharmic Shramans and not Brahmins. Veda was a documentation which used to contain all database of all inventions and researches. Brahmins actually corrupted Vedas by adding all nonsense to it by adding all mythical character. They Diverted the Historical characters into Mythical character due to which now people don't belive in our ancient heroes.

Sri Ram, Sri Krishna were Historical figures. Shri is the termed used for Shriman so it is Shriman Ram and Shriman Krishna which means Mr. Ram and Mr. Krishna.

Sri Krishna very well knew about the surya grahan would occur at that particular time as per astrology. So he made a strategy in which he told Arjuna to announce that Arjuna will commit suicide if he does not manages to kill Jayadratha . Sri Krishna very well knew that Kauravas army will defend Jayadratha in all possible ways, Sri Krishna also knew that if the Kaurava army feels that Arjuna was not capable of killing Jayadratha then Jayadratha will become over confident and hence will be break his defence and come out in open. This was the reason why Sri Krishna asked Arjuna to take such a oath so that Jayadratha comes into open as soon as there will be solar eclipse.

Now Solar eclispe is a phenomenon of Nature and nature was created by God and Sri Krishna was considered as God hence it is obvious people would refer Solar eclipse was created by Sri Krishna. It could be possible that solar eclipse was created by Vishnu and Sri Krishna was the incarnation of Vishnu so it applies as Sri Krishna created Solar eclipse.

Also, Sri Krishna was teaching the art of entering and breaking Chakrayuva but at that time Subhadhra due to which Abhimanyu who was in the womb of Subhadhra learnt only half knowleged about Chakrayuva this is just a metaphor(Figure of speech). It is obvious of a warrior women to teach her son the basic art of war to her child, just like of Jijabai taught to shivaji maharaj. But as Subhadhra herself knew little about Chakrayuva so she taught little about the Chakrayuva to Abhimanyu when he was growing up.

Everything was Historical it was made to appear like Mythological. Just like how Historical Troy was considered as Myth.

Also, Sri Krishna was teaching the art of entering and breaking Chakrayuva but at that time Subhadhra due to which Abhimanyu who was in the womb of Subhadhra learnt only half knowleged about Chakrayuva this is just a metaphor(Figure of speech). It is obvious of a warrior women to teach her son the basic art of war to her child, just like of Jijabai taught to shivaji maharaj. But as Subhadhra herself knew little about Chakrayuva so she taught little about the Chakrayuva to Abhimanyu when he was growing up.

Even Alexander The Great was referred to as Skanda(Murugan) in India culture. This is the reason why some of the south Indian are fair skinned due to the greek and Indian origin.

http://murugan.org/research/gopalapillai.htm

Darius whom Alexander defeated is actually Taraka whom Skanda defeated.

Alexander was called Iskandar in Persian. Just like how Melander is pronounced Milinda in India so Iskandar is also pronounced as skanda in India. In sanskrit Alexander is also pronounced as Alekchendra or Alikasudaro.

All Historical events were converted into Mythological events.

In ancient Indian Dharmic religion followed all scientfic rules and had logical reasoning and rational justification much before Brahmin caste was formed. Brahmins added Myth to all these findings of our ancient Indian Dharmic scientists and researchers.

Current generation are going away from Dharmic religion because of all these Myths created by Brahmins.

March 27, 2007

Sri Ram, Sri Krishna were Historical figures. Shri is the termed used for Shriman so it is Shriman Ram and Shriman Krishna which means Mr. Ram and Mr. Krishna.

I thought Sri was the goddess Sridevi or Lakshmi used as reverance before an incarnation of Vishnu.

Even Alexander The Great was referred to as Skanda(Murugan) in India culture. This is the reason why some of the south Indian are fair skinned due to the greek and Indian origin.

Maybe this is so. I've come across some very fair south Indians with almost white skin and green eyes. Maybe this would explain how the actress Aishwarya Rai, who is south Indian, looks more half-european than a typical Indian. It's not just South Indians, but you've got Indians from all over the country that look more european.

Darius whom Alexander defeated is actually Taraka whom Skanda defeated.

Alexander was called Iskandar in Persian. Just like how Melander is pronounced Milinda in India so Iskandar is also pronounced as skanda in India. In sanskrit Alexander is also pronounced as Alekchendra or Alikasudaro.

All Historical events were converted into Mythological events.

In ancient Indian Dharmic religion followed all scientfic rules and had logical reasoning and rational justification much before Brahmin caste was formed. Brahmins added Myth to all these findings of our ancient Indian Dharmic scientists and researchers.

Current generation are going away from Dharmic religion because of all these Myths created by Brahmins.

Maybe that is true, it makes sense. That's why Brahmins are always pushing the puranic stories as fact and associated rituals/festivals which may not be needed. But it is true that the 'myths' within Hinduism are driving away many young Hindus. I spoke to a Hindu girl who is now an agnostic, who said "Hinduism...I don't want to follow that fairy-tale religion, it's for stupid people with no sense".

hindu12 · March 27, 2007

Maybe that is true, it makes sense. That's why Brahmins are always pushing the puranic stories as fact and associated rituals/festivals which may not be needed. But it is true that the 'myths' within Hinduism are driving away many young Hindus. I spoke to a Hindu girl who is now an agnostic, who said "Hinduism...I don't want to follow that fairy-tale religion, it's for stupid people with no sense".

Number 2 Brahmins are only pushing puranic sotries as fact because they used it as a medium to gain popularity among majority of Hindus. Reading Puranic stories are a vital element if you have faith in a certain diety. Puranic stories are history and folklore and they have a lot of truth to them. Like I stated earlier, they have been rewritten and exagarated with far fetched stories.

But Puranic stories are definitely fact. It has a lot of tradition and they have been recited and sung in poetry. For example if you are a devotee of Lord Krishna and if you are a faithful follower of HIS Gita, then you must read the Mahabharata as well as Harivamsa which contain his biography.

ombakth · March 27, 2007

If you consider Sri of Sri Ram and Sri Krishna as Sridevi then the name will become Sridevi Ram and Sridevi Krishna whereas Sita was the avatar of Laskhmi when Sri Vishnu was Sri Ram hence it should become Sita Ram and not Sridevi similarly Rukmani was the avatar of Lakshmi when Sri Vishnu was Sri Krishna hence it should be Rukmani Krishna.

There are still some descendants of Alexander in Pakistan who still pray to Mahadev.The cousin Neminatha of Sri Krishna was the Jain monk.Some of the people of Madras were descendants of Madra kingdom the Kingdom of Shayla some of the are descendants of Elam kingdom of Mesopotanium. Some of the Andhra in south are the genetical cousin of Pathans. Even the Phallavas of Madras are genetical cousin of Pathans and Parthians.

This is the reason why you will find mixed color among Indians. Hence India is currently not the land of Indus but it is a land of Indigenous(Mixed) it can be interpreted as Indi Genius people.Aryan was not a race but it was just an organization something like current G8 countries, SAARC. Any one belonging to Suryvansh, Chandravansh and Nagvansh can be a part of this organization called Aryan and those who were not part of this organization were called Non Aryan. Race system did not exist in ancient Indian Dharma if that was the case then people of different tribes would not have merged together to create a common religion called Hinduism.

From ancient times even in the scriptures it was quoted that entire universe was created by Om(Aum). Even Brahma dev agrees to it, Shiv Shankar agrees to it and Sri Vishnu agrees to it. They themselves claim that they themselves are Om(Aum) at the same time they originated from Om. Hence Om is the real formless and Idoless of God ancient Indian Dharmic religion. Allah was formed from the word Allakh Niranjan which our ascetics(shraman) used to quote in Arabian peninsula. There used to be intensive trade and Arab was the halting point for our traders. Samrat Ashoka and long before in BC era sent many Indian Ascetics to Syria and it is a known fact that Mohammed used to go along with his uncle to visit Syria, it is here where he first understood Dharmic religion concept. Mohammed did not teach anything new.

Abrahman himself used stay in Afghanistan before he left to find a new Land because he was against Idol worship. Some Persian say that Zorasthutra was himself Abraham even Brahma is Another word for Abrahan. This is one of the reason why there only two temples of Brahma and Brahma is not worshiped like Shri Vishnu and Shiv Shankar.Shiv Shankar was also called Adi Nath who is also the first Tirthankara Rishabdev of Jain even the Adi Buddha of Buddhism not Gautam Buddha who is 28th Buddha. Buddha means enligthment it was not his original name. Sri Vishnu is also the Mithra of Mithraism the religion was followed in Greek and Rome before Christanity.See

when the population was migrating from north to south and from south to north some section settled in some areas due to which you might find fair colored people even among north Indians. But among both north Indians and south Indians there were also White Huns(Swet Huna) the clan to which Attila the Hun belongs. I am refering to those south Indians who pray Murugan(SKanda).

Current North Indians and South Indians are of mixed heritage of different tribes. Some of the Maharastrians not all Maharastrians belong to the Saka clan (Scythians) to which even Gautam Buddha belonged. That is the reason why you might find the word Shaka more often for a group or a branch in Marathi.Some Central India the border of UP and Bihar with Nepal were the descendants of Kushan(Mongols) who came from Northwest whereas the North eastern states of India were mongols arriving from North east or the mongols themselves originated from North eastern states of India and then spread to Mongol and then across Himalaya back into India.

There was one Buddhist text that mention Karna the king of China it could be possible that Anga was actually ancient Tibet. Due to this reason it is called Anga desh (Country) and not Anga pradesh (state or province).

Khan's of Mongol are indirect descendants or Karna.The word Changa means Great one and the word Khan(ear) means leader note that Ganga is also called Changa in Tibet also Karna is another name of ear. Most of the mongols during the times of Genghis Khan were Animist and not Muslims. Animist is Tantra like practice something followed in Bengal, North Eastern states and some of the South Indian like Bhuta Kola(Worship of Spirits who are disciples of Shiva). These are customs of NagVansh to which Karna belongs because he was a descendant of Kunti and Kunti belongs to NagVansh.Genghis Khan himself was a Animist by religion but later on allowed Buddhism and Taoism in his court. Genghis Khan is similar to Goraknath of the Gurkha clan. Note that Gurkha means Gur Khans. Goraknath was credited for creating Kanpantha and Genghis Khan was credited for creating Khan trend. Both were warriors. Both of them belong to same century. Also, both of their samadhi is missing. This is the reason why Genghis khan never attacked major India he attacked only Afghanistan which was ruled by Muslims monarch at that time. Genghis Khan had created more Havoc for Muslims and Christians. This is the reason why people of Iran and Iraq hate of Genghis Khan and his sons but it was one of Genghis Khan grandson due to whom Islam regain power.

There are many Genghis Khan grandsons in China and Mongolia who are Buddhist, some of them are Animist, Some of them are Muslim and some of them are Christians since ancient times they are not recent converties. But because the communist Government used to prosecute the descendants of Khan hence the his descendants in China and Mongolia have abandon the name Khan from their name.

Some of the low caste people were formed from the slaves soldiers who were captured in war that means if incase they would have won the war then they would have made the soldiers of opponents as slaves. Some of the tribals who did not lived in civilized society were considered as scheduled tribes as per today's scenario. Some of the them belonged to old Human species which were becoming extinct from this plannet hence people for the new Human species were restricted for having pshyical contact with them even though if they were capable for reproducing offspring.

Our Dharmic religions is the only one religion that answers the Big Bang theory(Scientific God) of science from which universe was formed just like universe was formed from Om(Aum). Even Darwin theory of evolution matches with our Dharmic civilization because at one point of time Sri Ram and Sri Hanuman both belonging to different Human species existed.

Sri Hanuman was from the clan of tree dwellers Human hence they used to carry ropes or the branches of tree which looks like rope used for hanging from tree I don't remember what it is called. Hence this ropes like things were misunderstood or misinterpreted to be as Tail. You might have noticed those who climb coconut tree always carry a piece of cloth with them which they tied to their feets and hands to climb the coconut tree and in other times they wrap it around their head like a Turban or tie it around their waist it lookes like a tail on the other end.

Also, if a person wants to tease another person then obviously he will try make comments on his clothing style etc.. just like what happens when a students raggs a junior students. Similarly clothing style of one person is sometimes appears to be funny to another.

Sri Hanuman carried a piece of rock which was not possible for others to carry the reason was that Sri Hanuman was a known body builder and an athlete hence he could lift 45 kilos weight quiet conviently but for a weak man such a weight will definitely be like a Parwat(Mountain).

We were modern in ancient times in around 2000 BC when Europe used to stay in tents we used to stay in 2 to 4 storeyed Housing Blocks in Indus Valley Civilization.

Sri Krishna was the first person who started Democratic Government in India.

We had Mahajanpadas(Republic) much before Roman Republic was formed. This was also one of the reason why it was not easy of Alexander the Great to defeat Indian Republic because in case of Monarchy if the king falls entire kingdome falls but incase of Republic nation if the leader falls another is appointed in his place.

Alexander himself in a letter written to his mother quoted that "She had given birth to one Alexander but there are thousands of Alexander in Indian Subcontinent".

If they consider that Ramayana and Mahabharata was a myth but they cannot neglect Indus Valley Civilization town planning.

If India was not famous in ancient times then these Europeans would have not been desperate to send voyages to search routes to India.

March 28, 2007

If they consider that Ramayana and Mahabharata was a myth but they cannot neglect Indus Valley Civilization town planning.

If India was not famous in ancient times then these Europeans would have not been desperate to send voyages to search routes to India.

Exactly. But now with the Indus Valley Civilization you've got so-called scholars squabling over whether it was Shaivite, Tantric or Jain religion that was practiced there.

hindu12 · March 28, 2007

That's why Brahmins are always pushing the puranic stories as fact and associated rituals/festivals which may not be needed.

Number 2 Brahmins are also always pushing the Vedas on everyone and claiming that everything comes fron the Vedas. But you seem to be a promoter of the Vedas. Under your logic, the Vedas isn't needed either.

ombakth · March 28, 2007

I am not saying that vedas is must.

I am not saying it is important like a oxygen.

I am just stating that it is just a any other book of todays generation.

As per today's generation there are many books of Chemistry, Geographic, Mathematics. I am just refering to the Vedic Mathematics and other substance contained in those Vedas, I am not at all interested in the authority of Brahmin mentioned in the vedas.

Veda in those days were just a bunch of pages which contained all the information that were available in those days documented into it.

I am not refering to any vedic religion.

Now suppose a person has a book of Mathematics, Socialogy etc. of some author and now if that peson belong to a higher caste then he will add a clause into that books asking people to respect him and hate others. This clause has got nothing to do with other contents of the same book but still he will add it if he has the authority or control over Vedas, Just like how a Pope of vatican has a control over Bible he can add any nonense to it whether it makes sense or no.

Treat Vedas just like any other book. Discard that nonsense mentioned in vedas about caste system and other unwanted things. Preseve the information like how to calculate effectively using Vedic Mathematics etc..

About the Religion of Indus Valley.

It is very clearly that earlier there were many tribes in India who used to pratice different culture and religion. In earlier times they did not gave any specific name for an religion. I agree that Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism existend since ancient times but they were not called as Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism.

Earlier there was intensive trading going on through Spice route and silk route. Many of our Indian Traders settled in Arabian Peninsula. Goods used to be deposited over there like a hub and later on transfered to different parts of the European. Our Traders used to dump all the gold into Indian Subcontinent they were rich enough to take decisions but still they did not interefered into the internal matters because they were alwasy outdoor in touring. At the same time the were Pirates and Dacoits who used to robe these Caravan of trade. It all started after Brahmins when Brahmins claimed themselves to be of higher caste due to the (Capitalist) Traders who rejected the authority of Brahmins adopted principles of Jains and hence Jainism developed. The Brahmins gave Janivar to those Kshatriyas who accepted Brahmins as first and accepted themselves to be second to Brahmin just like how the Traders rejected the authority of Brahmins so did other Kshtrayias hence they were called as Degraded Kshtrayias. These Kshtrayias accepted doctrine of Buddha and hence Buddhism devloped.

In earlier times Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism did exists but they were just called as Dharma.

Sri Ram himself told about Dharma. Sri Krishna told about Dharma. Swami Vardhman himself told about Dharma and even Gautam Buddha told about Dharma. In ancient times even in Indus valley civilization as well as Ayodhya it was Dharma and not just Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism.

Guru Nanak himself broke the Janivar and he is still considered as the great teacher. This shows that there is no need to practices unnecessary rituals. People are borthered about the rituals but they are not following any Dharmic principles. Guru Nanak himself broke traditions and see the gurus who came later on created and imposed new tradition like mandating Turban wearing etc. If Guru Nanak would have come again then he will definitely ridicule such meaningless tradition and ritual.

Swami Vardhman Mahaveera never made nakedness and mandatory principle. Even he used to wear a piece of cloth but when he found another person who needed the cloth more than him hence he gave that cloth to that person and he did not had any money to purchase another so he was not at all bothered about it. In our country there were many ascetics who used to penance either naked or used to wear a Langoti(underwear like thing) so that does not means all of them are Digamabara sect of Jains. Take for e.g. Swami Nityanand he used to wear just a Langot but he was nto a Jain. Also if a person walks on a street wearing a langot or an underwear he is still considered or teased as naked so there can be possible that Swami Vardhman Mahaveera might be wearing a Langoti or just convered himself with leaves but still public of those days used to tease him calling him to be naked.

Public remains the same whether it is this generation or earlier generation. If we feel pleasure in teasing on another person's clothing, way of speaking, his cultural background, his racial background then it was same even in those days nothing difference. People who don't have any work they do all these things like insulting others without any logical reasoning. What was the use of abusing Sri Ram, Sri Krishna, Swami Vardhman and Gautam Buddha when they were the only one in recent era to attain nirvana whereas those who abused are gone back to ground today the condition of Brahmin is getting deterioted day by day. They are reaping what they sowed they corrupted and spoiled our Dharmic culture for their selfish needs just like what Pope did to Jews. Gods sees even one with one eyes. But at the same time even though it is the fault of the Brahmin of ancient times not all Brahmins are to be blamed, there were many of them who followed the rules and regulations laid by their ancestors without logically reasoning. Some Brahmins unknowingly followed the selfish rules and regulations made by selfish ones. There are selfish people in all caste there are many selfish people even among the Dalits as well as Brahmins. If there were really good people among the Dalits then their conditions would have improved by now but these selfish people are using Dalits for their personal benifit and not for the welfare of the Dalits in general. The head of Dalits have made huge properties for themselves but are unnecessary initiating poor Dalits into violence at the cost of the life of those innocent Dalits and poor policeman they are ruling. All are same blaming one and another is of no use.

The reason why magical things were added to the religion was that in those days and even today people do believe in Chamatkar hence it is called "Chamatkar ko Namaskar". If you explain them logically they are not going to belive hence they added magical things into the religion inorder to attract people and trick them to follow some rules and regulations may be for the good cause or for a bad cause. But now things are changing people are excepting things only when it is logically justified. So if you want to explain Dharmic religion and want to work for it's benefit then explain it logically.

No one came from the Head of God and no one came from the Foot of God. Every one came from the heart of God whether it is a brahmin or a dalit.

If you consider a Dalit as a person who cleans dirt then consider Brahmin as a person who cleans idols. Brahmins did not developed the economy of our country. Brahmins did not invent anything it was all done by shramans(Indian ascetics who can be of any caste) and intellectual of that era. Brahmins just sat on all those research book and added few nonsense and claimed it to be theirs.

True Soldiers, Good Teachers, Decent Social Activist and the people who help in developing the economy of our country should be given respect whether they are Brahmin or a Dalit.

Bhakti should be from heart to the God.

hindu12 · March 28, 2007

I am not saying that vedas is must.

I am not saying it is important like a oxygen.

I am just stating that it is just a any other book of todays generation.

As per today's generation there are many books of Chemistry, Geographic, Mathematics. I am just refering to the Vedic Mathematics and other substance contained in those Vedas, I am not at all interested in the authority of Brahmin mentioned in the vedas.

Veda in those days were just a bunch of pages which contained all the information that were available in those days documented into it.

I am not refering to any vedic religion.

Now suppose a person has a book of Mathematics, Socialogy etc. of some author and now if that peson belong to a higher caste then he will add a clause into that books asking people to respect him and hate others. This clause has got nothing to do with other contents of the same book but still he will add it if he has the authority or control over Vedas, Just like how a Pope of vatican has a control over Bible he can add any nonense to it whether it makes sense or no.

Treat Vedas just like any other book. Discard that nonsense mentioned in vedas about caste system and other unwanted things. Preseve the information like how to calculate effectively using Vedic Mathematics etc..

About the Religion of Indus Valley.

It is very clearly that earlier there were many tribes in India who used to pratice different culture and religion. In earlier times they did not gave any specific name for an religion. I agree that Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism existend since ancient times but they were not called as Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism.

Earlier there was intensive trading going on through Spice route and silk route. Many of our Indian Traders settled in Arabian Peninsula. Goods used to be deposited over there like a hub and later on transfered to different parts of the European. Our Traders used to dump all the gold into Indian Subcontinent they were rich enough to take decisions but still they did not interefered into the internal matters because they were alwasy outdoor in touring. At the same time the were Pirates and Dacoits who used to robe these Caravan of trade. It all started after Brahmins when Brahmins claimed themselves to be of higher caste due to the (Capitalist) Traders who rejected the authority of Brahmins adopted principles of Jains and hence Jainism developed. The Brahmins gave Janivar to those Kshatriyas who accepted Brahmins as first and accepted themselves to be second to Brahmin just like how the Traders rejected the authority of Brahmins so did other Kshtrayias hence they were called as Degraded Kshtrayias. These Kshtrayias accepted doctrine of Buddha and hence Buddhism devloped.

In earlier times Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism did exists but they were just called as Dharma.

Sri Ram himself told about Dharma. Sri Krishna told about Dharma. Swami Vardhman himself told about Dharma and even Gautam Buddha told about Dharma. In ancient times even in Indus valley civilization as well as Ayodhya it was Dharma and not just Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism.

Guru Nanak himself broke the Janivar and he is still considered as the great teacher. This shows that there is no need to practices unnecessary rituals. People are borthered about the rituals but they are not following any Dharmic principles. Guru Nanak himself broke traditions and see the gurus who came later on created and imposed new tradition like mandating Turban wearing etc. If Guru Nanak would have come again then he will definitely ridicule such meaningless tradition and ritual.

Swami Vardhman Mahaveera never made nakedness and mandatory principle. Even he used to wear a piece of cloth but when he found another person who needed the cloth more than him hence he gave that cloth to that person and he did not had any money to purchase another so he was not at all bothered about it. In our country there were many ascetics who used to penance either naked or used to wear a Langoti(underwear like thing) so that does not means all of them are Digamabara sect of Jains. Take for e.g. Swami Nityanand he used to wear just a Langot but he was nto a Jain. Also if a person walks on a street wearing a langot or an underwear he is still considered or teased as naked so there can be possible that Swami Vardhman Mahaveera might be wearing a Langoti or just convered himself with leaves but still public of those days used to tease him calling him to be naked.

Public remains the same whether it is this generation or earlier generation. If we feel pleasure in teasing on another person's clothing, way of speaking, his cultural background, his racial background then it was same even in those days nothing difference. People who don't have any work they do all these things like insulting others without any logical reasoning. What was the use of abusing Sri Ram, Sri Krishna, Swami Vardhman and Gautam Buddha when they were the only one in recent era to attain nirvana whereas those who abused are gone back to ground today the condition of Brahmin is getting deterioted day by day. They are reaping what they sowed they corrupted and spoiled our Dharmic culture for their selfish needs just like what Pope did to Jews. Gods sees even one with one eyes. But at the same time even though it is the fault of the Brahmin of ancient times not all Brahmins are to be blamed, there were many of them who followed the rules and regulations laid by their ancestors without logically reasoning. Some Brahmins unknowingly followed the selfish rules and regulations made by selfish ones. There are selfish people in all caste there are many selfish people even among the Dalits as well as Brahmins. If there were really good people among the Dalits then their conditions would have improved by now but these selfish people are using Dalits for their personal benifit and not for the welfare of the Dalits in general. The head of Dalits have made huge properties for themselves but are unnecessary initiating poor Dalits into violence at the cost of the life of those innocent Dalits and poor policeman they are ruling. All are same blaming one and another is of no use.

The reason why magical things were added to the religion was that in those days and even today people do believe in Chamatkar hence it is called "Chamatkar ko Namaskar". If you explain them logically they are not going to belive hence they added magical things into the religion inorder to attract people and trick them to follow some rules and regulations may be for the good cause or for a bad cause. But now things are changing people are excepting things only when it is logically justified. So if you want to explain Dharmic religion and want to work for it's benefit then explain it logically.

No one came from the Head of God and no one came from the Foot of God. Every one came from the heart of God whether it is a brahmin or a dalit.

If you consider a Dalit as a person who cleans dirt then consider Brahmin as a person who cleans idols. Brahmins did not developed the economy of our country. Brahmins did not invent anything it was all done by shramans(Indian ascetics who can be of any caste) and intellectual of that era. Brahmins just sat on all those research book and added few nonsense and claimed it to be theirs.

True Soldiers, Good Teachers, Decent Social Activist and the people who help in developing the economy of our country should be given respect whether they are Brahmin or a Dalit.

Bhakti should be from heart to the God.

Woe, I love your post!

March 28, 2007

Number 2 Brahmins are also always pushing the Vedas on everyone and claiming that everything comes fron the Vedas. But you seem to be a promoter of the Vedas. Under your logic, the Vedas isn't needed either.

hindu12,

I'm not a promoter of the Vedas, that's your mind playing tricks on you again. Brahmins may be pushing the Vedas, but so are Arya Samaj, who are against caste system. And before you start, I'm not an Arya Samajist. As for the Vedas, I've said this before and I'll say it again - pay attention this time, the Vedas is today only followed directly by some Brahmins and Arya Samajist and maybe some traditionanalist groups. Most Hindus today do not follow the Vedas.

Ombakth, thanks for the informative reply.

shvu · March 29, 2007

hindu12,
I'm not a promoter of the Vedas, that's your mind playing tricks on you again. Brahmins may be pushing the Vedas, but so are Arya Samaj, who are against caste system. And before you start, I'm not an Arya Samajist. As for the Vedas, I've said this before and I'll say it again - pay attention this time, the Vedas is today only followed directly by some Brahmins and Arya Samajist and maybe some traditionanalist groups. Most Hindus today do not follow the Vedas.

Ombakth, thanks for the informative reply.

I am inclined to agree with you. What does pushing the Vedas mean exactly?

Brahmins are made out to be villains for things they are not really interested in or have any knowledge of, in my opinion. This is the 21st century and Brahmins - just like other Indians - are more interested in upgrading their mobile phones to the latest models and buying Santro cars.

The majority of them have no clue on the teachings of their respective affiliations and more importantly they do not care. They have more interesting things to spend their time on and there is nothing wrong in that. It is a very different world that we live in today compared to just 300 years ago.

"Pushing the Vedas" is a complaint that may have been valid a few centuries back, but is totally out of place in today's world. When dealing with topics such as Brahman oppression, we need to be aware that a lot of them originated when times were very different and are no longer applicable. Let us not lose sight of reality.

Cheers

hindu12 · March 29, 2007

I am inclined to agree with you. What does pushing the Vedas mean exactly?

Brahmins are made out to be villains for things they are not really interested in or have any knowledge of, in my opinion. This is the 21st century and Brahmins - just like other Indians - are more interested in upgrading their mobile phones to the latest models and buying Santro cars.

The majority of them have no clue on the teachings of their respective affiliations and more importantly they do not care. They have more interesting things to spend their time on and there is nothing wrong in that. It is a very different world that we live in today compared to just 300 years ago.

"Pushing the Vedas" is a complaint that may have been valid a few centuries back, but is totally out of place in today's world. When dealing with topics such as Brahman oppression, we need to be aware that a lot of them originated when times were very different and are no longer applicable. Let us not lose sight of reality.

Cheers

My argument was a response to Number 2 claiming that Brahmins are always "pushing the Puranas". He was the first one to make that statement.I was simply demonstrating that the same can be said about the Vedas. I mean, it was the Brahmin class that always try and say that ""everything" we know it Hinduism comes from the Vedas and that all Hindus "must" revere the Vedas. Isn't that a form of authority?

The very definition of a Hindu is one who accepts the Vedas as authority! How did this come about? Have you looked into it? You should.

I agree that Brahmins are an easy target in todays world. However, I am not talking about your everyday "Brahmin" but rather the so called "religious minded" Brahmin. I have spoken with many and they believe the Vedas more then any other scripture and further they completely support caste sstem and believe themselves to be the highest.

Also if Number 2 had any idea or at least some kind of knowledge as to why Brahmins pushed the Puranas in the first place he wouldn't be making that comment. Brahmins may have very well pushed the Puranas as a medium to gain popularity among the masses. They took stories and history and used it. As evident that the early religion of the Vedas is completely different from what we know as Hinduism today.

ombakth · March 29, 2007

Chandragupta Mauyra the Grandfather of Samrat Ashoka had himself married a Greek Lady so if we consider that our history with foreigner's starts from Alexander then even from that time there were many people among us who were from mixed heritage.

There another group of books called 9 Unknown Men of Samrat Ashoka(Piodasses) the Dharmic Emperor(Not just Buddhist Emperor because along with Buddhism he had even built many Shiva temples and only Buddhist were able to preserve most of the details about him hence they claim him to be only a Buddhist King).

Several Foreign countries are well attested recipients of Ashoka's missions (such as Sri Lanka and Thailand), lending credence to the historicity and the success of these missions. It is all the more surprising that no records of them have remained in the West. The only known record in that sense is that of the 2nd century CE Saint Origen, who stated that Buddhists co-existed with Druids in pre-Christian Britain:

<DL><DD>"The island (Britain) has long been predisposed to it (Christianity) through the doctrines of the Druids and Buddhists, who had already inculcated the doctrine of the unity of the Godhead" Origen, "Commentary on Ezekiel".</DD></DL>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_the_Great

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Unknown_Men

Some say that these Nine Unknown Men are actually books that contains lot of information due to this reason Samrat Ashoka had hidden them so that foreigners don't take advantages of these books. If our Archeaologist find these books then once again India can become the world's super power. Some says that it contains most of information of Technology, Articraft, Socialogy, Economics etc..

Whatever west has today is given to them by our ancestors but we were able to keep up that self esteem and pride that we had once. The west borrowed everything from us and they feel that they are superior to us. What will happen if all our scientist come back to India? If that happens then Nasa will close within a second.

But what the use if they come back our government policies will not support their Intellectuality because here people are divided on the basis of Quota, Reservations. So called Quota and Reservations were actually made to develop underpriviledge people but today it is just used for making money there are many High caste people who make fake certificates and take Quota and Reservations Job. Even the people from Low caste has to pay money to his minister who himself belongs to low caste. That means the Low caste minister himself exploits his fellowmen.

The outcome of this is that we land up with less intellectual people in Higher post who knows nothing about that stream.

To devlope the economy people like Amritya sen a Noble price winner Economist should be made as the Finance minister and not a fool who is not even passed his SSC.

"We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

-Albert Einstein

http://www.cgisf.org/cultural/quotes.html

"In India, I found a race of mortals living upon the Earth, but not adhering to it, inhabiting cities, but not being fixed to them, possessing everything, but possessed by nothing"

Apollonius Tyanaeus quotes (Neo-Pythagorean)

http://www.iloveindia.com/quotes-on-india/index.html

Apollonius of Tyana (Apollonius Tyanaeus) some historian feel that he was the real Historical person who has similarities to Jesus of the Romans because they were not able to find Historical Jesus and even Jews themselves claim that there was no person called Jesus as per their literature but they say that there was a person called Yeshwa but they are not considering Yeshwa to be their Messiah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

It is a well known fact that Phytagoras had come to India to learn from Indian Ascetics. Indian Ascetics not just kept praying or penances they even invented things. All ancient Scientists, Mathematicians, real Dharm Gurus, Rishis and Sadhus are considered as ascetics. I am not refering to most of the dhongis of current world.

There are still many real ascetics who penance and pray.

Our political leaders should learn from our ancestors that development is the must. Samrat Ashoka was able to rule most of the Indian Subcontinent was not only because of his might army but it was because of his development processes he used to not split his countrymen in the name of Languages and states.

Some of our younger generation say that Foreign countries are great because of its language etc.. but they should not forget that the ancient Indian script which was Brahmi script. Latin and German language scripts were developed from Brahmi script. Most of the today's characters of English were indirectly formed from Brahmi Script. Even Ashoka used to write in Brahmi script.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Brahmi.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Asoka1.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet

Today most of the NASA scientists are Indians. It was an India who made Email system called Hotmail. It is Indians who design the processors and look because our government does not supports the brain pool because of which all the credit goes to foreigners. Along with Intellectual we should also promote Technical courses the reason is that even ancient times Indian was more Technical Civilization than other civilizations. We were the first inventor of Aircraft called Phuspka. This Aircraft though it was not high flying aircraft like modern ones but it was capable of flying atleast 4th floor building's height. You can consider this as low flying Aircraft but still it is an invention for that time. Agreed that in those days there was no petrol and diesel but people should not forget that recent invention is Bio Diesel made from plants which can perform with same efficiency like that of Diesel or Petrol, so it can very well accepted that something like Bio Diesel was used during those days.

Today china is developing it's Techinal branch along with Intellectual field to win from us in the race and look we are relaxing with our legs crossed and day dreaming, we will wake up only when china wins the race.

Chinese are making their Day and night one to lead. But our Government policies are not allowing us to develop our own computer processors which is designed in our own country and look in China they are giving all facilities for foreign Technical companies to run in their country because after all it will be chinese who will be working in these companies, the foreigners will be just outsourcing things to them. It is the Chinese Government and Chinese Economy that will make money from these ventures and in turn it will take care of the unemployment problem. We over here are just counting stars.

Ancient Indian Dharmic religion(Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism etc..) is the religion of Intellectuals. We should behave in a decent manner and civilized manner because we were the one of the world earliest civilization.

Why there is difference between North and South?

There were many tribes inhibitated throughout the continent same branch of tribes settled in North whereas some went to South and Vice a versa. Because a clan called Rastrakruta went from South to North and came to be known as Rathores in north and now if you look at them Rastrakruta look typical south Indian accent and language whereas Rathores look typical north Indian with north Indian accent and language.

Most of the North Indians were busy in stopping the foreign invansion from the North after when we lost the Silk Route whereas the South Indians were busy in conquering and settling in other countries due to control the Spice route trade empire hence you can consider that South India stretched from Vindhyas to Combodia. Whereas North India was reduced from Mesopotanium to Indus valley. The North Indians had to communicate with people who were invading from north whereas the South Indians had to communicate with the people and culture of south east asian countries due to this there was language difference between north and south. It is a human nature in which if a person continously keeps on doing one thing or speaking one particular language continously then he gets used to it. A Computer Geek will speak most of the computer terminology even in his day to day public speak whereas a Teacher will speak slightly different then the computer geek inspite of them communicating in the same language.

Even Jesus used to speak another dialect of Aramaic which we used to speak in another form hence due to this reason it was easy to communicate between West Asia and Indian Subcontinent.

Take for e.g. if a Person is Gujarati then he can understand the local dialect of Rajasthan quiet conveniently than the Maharastrian. Whereas the Maharastrian can understand Gujarati quiet conveniently than a Kannadiga. The people in the border of the two states have mixed language and accent to some extent they are capable of understanding the Languages of both the surrounding states.

Some people have misunderstanding that all South Indian Languages are same but if you ask a Tamilian that whether he can understand each and everything which is spoken in Kannada or Telugu then he will reply that he cannot understand everything. The same applies to other states.

Now some people say that Aryans were of white race and occupy the North whereas Dravidians are black race and occupy the South there is a contradiction even for this take for e.g. of Sri Lanka the Sinhalese are actually the North Indians who were supposed to be so called Aryans as termed by the foreign Archeaologist. The Sinhalese came to Sri Lanka from Gujarat. Whereas the Tamilians are South Indian who were supposed to be the so called Dravidians as termed by the foreign Archealogists. So now in Sri Lanka it becomes that North Srilankans are Dravidians and South Srilankans are Aryans. If you look both of them they are almost similar so now where does the White Race and Black Race exists.

I agree that we used to follow Caste system but we never followed Race system. Beign White or Black did not make any difference for us.

Sri Krishna wanted Karna to come and Join him because he was well aware that Karna was capable of conquering the expanding India but Karna had to stick to his friend Duryodhana.

Sri Krishna with the help of Arjuna united many different Indian Tribes due to his effort it became very difficult to find out who is from which clan till new invasions from the north took place.

Sri Krishna Kept Pandavas on the borders of India to stop further foreign Invasion from the North. Because after the war of Mahabharata most of the small kingdom seperated from Kuru kingdom Hastinapura whic was in later days called Takshila. We had almost lost the Silk route which used to pass inbetween Kuru Kingdom inbetween Uttar Kuru and India Kuru empire. Uttar Kuru compromised of Kazaksthan, Uzbekistan etc..

The mother of Pandu and Ditrashtra were actually Uzbekistan princesses who were abducted by Beeshma. Karna himself repeated the act of abducting princesses for Duryodhana and this process became their culture till the mongols. Even Genghis Khan's father and Genghis Khan himself have married abducted princesses this was the common custom of those areas in those days. Whereas we even followed the culture of Syamwara in which the princesses were given a choice to choose their husband so abducting was not our cultures it just happened in few instances.

Our younger generation feel that West is advanced but they forget that it was our ancestors who made West as Advanced country.

Our younger generation wears less revealing clothing saying that it is modern culture they are fools if they understand history of Mankind they will come to know that our ape ancestors used to roam without clothes so later advanced generations started wearing clothes so that means during that time wearing clothes was modernization and so if we now wear less clothes that will mean that we are going back to ape age.

Wearing a Sci Fi clothes that can prevent all temperatures or a bullet protection clothes can be considered as modernization to our current clothes and not less clothes.

One most important thing is that Maha Vishnu was also called as Taranhara and the first 24 Jains Acharyas were called Tirthankara. Both Taranhara and Tirthanakar sounds similar so it can be possible that Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma are different names of a same God. That means people of Indus Valley Civilization followed common Dharmic culture and not just Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism. Indus Valley Civilization is not just one town, all the ancient towns found by archealogists are considered as Indus Valley Civilization. In one such town the symbols of Shiva and Jains were found there were other symbols found in other towns that follow sligthly different norms. It can be concluded that in ancient times people of India followed ancient Indian Dharmic culture may be the only name of the religion was Dharma(including Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism).

If Sri Ram is the King/Emperor/President then we also require a Prime minister/Dipolmat like Sri Krishna and a Commandor like Karna. An Activist/Reformer like Parashuram. Gautam Buddha who can unite people and Swami Vardhman(Mahaveer) who can bring Peace. Guru Nanak who can change unwanted rituals and customs then it becomes an Undefeatable combination of Dharmic Empire which cannot be broken by any Pope or a Caliph.

March 29, 2007

I am inclined to agree with you. What does pushing the Vedas mean exactly?

You need to ask hindu12 about what he means about "pushing the vedas". The guy has formed opinions and allegations about me which I know are completely off mark. But I'll let him continue his fantasy.

I agree, most Brahmins I meet today are like other Hindus and are very materialistic and less spiritual. But they still like to hold on to the title of Brahmin. I think it's wrong to call yourself a Brahmin if you don't have the qualities and character required of a Brahmin as given in the Gita.

hindu12 · March 29, 2007

You need to ask hindu12 about what he means about "pushing the vedas". The guy has formed opinions and allegations about me which I know are completely off mark. But I'll let him continue his fantasy.

I agree, most Brahmins I meet today are like other Hindus and are very materialistic and less spiritual. But they still like to hold on to the title of Brahmin. I think it's wrong to call yourself a Brahmin if you don't have the qualities and character required of a Brahmin as given in the Gita.

No someone needs to ask YOU about what it means by "pushing the puranas" YOU made that statement. Don't try and escape from your own battle. I just used your logic and compared your reasoning with the Vedas.

Shvu, I suggest you go back and read why I said that. Number 2 always make unreliable and ignorant statements and then he turns it around on me.

March 30, 2007

No someone needs to ask YOU about what it means by "pushing the puranas" YOU made that statement. Don't try and escape from your own battle. I just used your logic and compared your reasoning with the Vedas.

Shvu, I suggest you go back and read why I said that. Number 2 always make unreliable and ignorant statements and then he turns it around on me.

It's amazing, I'm having a discussion with someone else on this thread and you have to jump in and pollute it.

Actually here is what I was responding to what shvu said. Pay attention..

I am inclined to agree with you. What does pushing the Vedas mean exactly?

As for pushing the Puranas, nobody has asked me further about that apart from you. Brahmins do push the puranas alot. Alot of the stories they tell are from the Puranas, not the Vedas. They keep the Vedas exclusively for themselves. Pushing the Puranas means promoting the teachings, stories, etc from the Puranas. The main gods we worship today (Shiva, Ganesh, Vishnu, Shakti) are from the puranas.

March 30, 2007

Chandragupta Mauyra the Grandfather of Samrat Ashoka had himself married a Greek Lady so if we consider that our history with foreigner's starts from Alexander then even from that time there were many people among us who were from mixed heritage.

Very Interesting post. I knew that Chandragupta had married the daughter of a Greek king in India he had conquered. But I think Chandragupta had more than one wife. I'm not sure if Asoka himself was part Greek.

There was alot of inter-mixing with Greeks during the Indo-greek civilisation as people thought they'd be there forever.

hindu12 · March 30, 2007

It's amazing, I'm having a discussion with someone else on this thread and you have to jump in and pollute it.

Actually here is what I was responding to what shvu said. Pay attention..

As for pushing the Puranas, nobody has asked me further about that apart from you. Brahmins do push the puranas alot. Alot of the stories they tell are from the Puranas, not the Vedas. They keep the Vedas exclusively for themselves. Pushing the Puranas means promoting the teachings, stories, etc from the Puranas. The main gods we worship today (Shiva, Ganesh, Vishnu, Shakti) are from the puranas.

Asking questions is not jumping in and "polluting". You said yourself that this is a discussion board for one to debate and ask questions. Yet, you accuse of doing the same thing that you are doing and attacking me for asking you a logical question.

Before I state my opinion, let me first start off by stating that I am not bieng anti-Brahmin incase you get senstive about this, I don't know.

You had stated earlier that "Brahmins are always pushing the puranas as fact"

My answer:

Brahmins only push the puranas because they have to. If you study the formation of Hinduism and it's development throughout the ages then it makes sense. This does not make the Puranas fake. Can you ellaborate on why do you think they are not fact?

I do understand that the puranas as we know today are an exagarated form of what really happened. Further, Brahmins added Mythology to it to attract people. In addition, another reason why I believe in the historicity of the Puranas is for example the Harivamsa are said to have been written sometime between 100-300 AD and added as an appendix into the Mahabharata. However, the grammer Panini in his writings which date back to 300bc had stated that he remembers the story of Vasudev Krishna killing kamsa and others as an ancient story. This is why I believe there is truth to them.

Brahmins generally keep the Vedas to themselves yet they push the fact that all knowledge comes from there and that one should accept it as authority. In this sense I was using the same logic.

The general theory as to why the Brahmins pushed the Puranas and why the Hinduism that we follow today is drastically different from the religion of the Brahmin and Vedas of early times is that Brahmins went around and took the best of the best of philosophies-Upanishad, Bhagavatas, Pancharatras, etc... they took all the Vaishnava/Shaiva literature, Mahabharata, stories from Puranas and added mythology to it to attract people and gain populatiry among the general masses (many say this was to fight off the threat of Buddhism and Jainism). They created a pantheon consisting of Local God's and Goddess's and added Lord Krishna (who was a historical divine person) and raised him to the level of gohhead and used his Gita as a medium. And obviously they succeeded among the masses. After they succeeded some of them tried to do the same with Buddha but failed.

Not carefully, I am not saying the above is true but it is highly probable. You are correct, in ancient times the Brahmins always kept the Vedas to themselves and within their communities. They were always restrictive (as evident even in later times with Manu Smirti where Sudras were not allowed to read the Vedas). The Brahminical relgion of the Vedas was never popular and failed to appeal to the masses (maybe because they were too restricitve). It was Jainism and Buddhism and many other spiritual paths that all derived from Upanishadic thought (Sankya) and they consisted of teachings and were open to all classes that gained mass popularity.

To gain popularity and hold their position intact, it makes a lot of sense how Brahmins have to push the puranas, the avatars, the Gods and Goddess's and Bhakti.

March 30, 2007

Brahmins only push the puranas because they have to. If you study the formation of Hinduism and it's development throughout the ages then it makes sense. This does not make the Puranas fake. Can you ellaborate on why do you think they are not fact?

For one of the few times hindu12, I find myself agreeing with you.

I don't think the Puranas are entirely fake. I think some contain allegorical and metaphorical language that we interpret literally. The puranas as we know them today were believed to be compiled and edited from ancient stories, histories and traditions that the people already knew. However, I do find stories like that of Ganesh and how he got his elephant head a little hard to take literally. There are also a number of contradicting stories about how he broke his tusk. It doesn't bother me too much.

hindu12 · March 30, 2007

For one of the few times hindu12, I find myself agreeing with you.

I don't think the Puranas are entirely fake. I think some contain allegorical and metaphorical language that we interpret literally. The puranas as we know them today were believed to be compiled and edited from ancient stories, histories and traditions that the people already knew. However, I do find stories like that of Ganesh and how he got his elephant head a little hard to take literally. There are also a number of contradicting stories about how he broke his tusk. It doesn't bother me too much.

Yes I do agree that myth was added to them. One cannot take every single piece of story of explanation within the Puranas as fact and history but I still think there is a lot of truth to them. I do think most of it is true and if you are one that follows a particular diety then I think it is essential for you to read their puranas.

ombakth · March 30, 2007

The chakra of Sri Krishna is actually the Boomerang. This is the only weapon that returns back after completing projectile motion. The Boomerang is used by many Australian Aboriginal and African tribes. Now it is well understood that Australian Aboriginal are in reality Indians who went and settled there.

The boomerang was used for hunting etc.. As Sri Krishna was a cowherd/shepherd in childhood so there is possibility that he used to use this tool to hit the wild animals that would come to hunt his cows and sheeps. Using this Tools continously Sri Krishna had mastered it anyone who does any things repititavily becomes an expert in that equipment. Sri Krishna might have sharped this tools or made some changes/inventions to this tool either by making it with Metal instead of wood. The warriors of Mahabharata war were well trained with sword, bow and arrow, mace and spear but they were not trained with Boomerang since it is in reality not a weapon used in war, hence they were not capable of using Boomerang conveniently like how Sri Krishna used to use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang

He might be also expert in using Slingshot tool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slingshot

Take for e.g. David and Goliath of Jews history.

David was also a cowherd/shepherd. He used to wrap stones into a long clothe and then whirl and swing that clothe, when he used to do that the stones wrapped in that clothe used to be released and striking at the target. When child David was given an Oppertunity to defeat the huge giant Goliath then people were shocked to see that David just opting to use a clothe and stones to defeat Goliath. Goliath who could not be defeated by swords was defeated by the stones of child David.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David

It is also suggested that Semetic biblical city or people called ophir is equivalent of Bharatya Abhira. On this basis, some scholars seek yadav and Jews connection. According to Stephen Knapp, the Greeks referred to the Jews as Judeos, or Jah deos or Yadavas, meaning people of Ya or descendants of Yadu, one of the sons of Yayati. It is also regarded that the basis of the Kabbalah, the book of Jewish mystical concepts, as described in The Holy Kabbalah by Arthur Edward Waite, is linked with Vedas. Yadavas were possessors of great mystical knowledge is confirmed in Bhagvad Gita itself which says same knowledge was given to Manu (first man on earth), Surya and Ikshavaku (ancestor of Lord Rama) at very ancient time. It is believed Abhira were the link between eastern and western religions. There are compelling proofs of both mauryan and Guptas being Abhirs. The Kshatriya religion was propounded by Krishna, and no reference is found before him. We only find Rajnya as the term alternatively used for it (Bhagwad Gita is emaciated form of hidden knowledge—Gope—which has its root in Shiva). Later on, many Kshatriyas were made based on the philosophy of this religion as revealed in Bhagavad Gita.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadav

You will find some people of South Indian and Few North Indian Celebrating Krishna Janmastami some of them don't celebrate Ram Navami this is not because of North and South divide the main reason is that those who are the descendants of Sri Krishna's lineage or clan follow Sri Krishna's directives whereas you will find many Maharastrians and some North Indians celebrating both Krishna Janmastami and Ram Navami because either the practice has be initiated in those places or they are descendants of both Sri Krishna's clan and Sri Rama's clan. There are also many south Indian people who celebrate Ram Navami mostly in Andhra Pradesh. But that does not makes any difference because both Sri Rama and Sri Krishna were Indians and both of them worked for the development of Dharmic religion so they should be given equal importance both in North as well as South whether it is Krishna Janmastami or Ram Navami.

Hence everything was Historical and Scientifical but because of some people who added unnecessary things and made it to look more complicated so that it becomes Mythological due to which Younger generations are going away from the Dharmic religion.

Contributions of Brahmins for the development of Dharmic religion was 0%.

Contributions of Brahmins for the unity of Dharmic religion was 0%.

Contributions of Brahmins for devloping economy of India was 0%.

Contributions of Brahmins for defending the nation from foreign aggression by fighting with them like a soldier was 0%.

But still they consider themselves to be higher than every one. They consider themselves higher than even God.

When Sri Rama and Sri Krishna wipped the legs of many Brahmins, these Brahmins felt that they are greater than Gods but they are forgetting that in actually Sri Rama and Sri Krishna were great the reason is that inspite of being a King they wiped the legs of Brahims, this shows how humble they were and on the other hand these brahmins have so much ego that they don't respect any human values.

This proves that no matter whoever he is or whatever he is, he should not possess ego otherwise they will go into doom. People pray to Sri Rama and Sri Krishna because of their humbleness and see what is the conditions of Brahmins today because of their Ego.

There is lot of difference between Self respect and Ego but people consider both as one. Brahmins misunderstood that their personal selfish ego was their self respect.

There are many practicing Brahmins who are not able to slove a Mathematical equations but at the same time there are many Dalits who can solve those Mathematical equations quiet conveniently. But as per Brahmins they came from Head of God then they are supposed to solve all that present in this world then why are not able to match with the IQ level, rational and logical reasoning of people belonging caste lesser than theirs. This contradicts their very basic statement that Brahmins came from the head of God whereas rest of the caste people came from other parts of the God's body that means other parts of God's body are more intelligent, smart and have rationaly and logically reasoning then those Brahmins who came from the head of God.

April 1, 2007

The chakra of Sri Krishna is actually the Boomerang. This is the only weapon that returns back after completing projectile motion. The Boomerang is used by many Australian Aboriginal and African tribes. Now it is well understood that Australian Aboriginal are in reality Indians who went and settled there.

There are boomerangs you can buy today that are shaped like a ring. Although aborigines are credited with the boomerang it was believed to be used as a weapon in ancient tribal cultures.

Hence everything was Historical and Scientifical but because of some people who added unnecessary things and made it to look more complicated so that it becomes Mythological due to which Younger generations are going away from the Dharmic religion.

If you look at all ancient cultures they all have their history mixed with mythology. Just look at the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Persians, Babylonianans, etc. The Indians were no different. When it comes to the Greeks the western historians are willing to say that Troy maybe happened and some of it was real. They don't give this same level of importance to Indian civilisation. This is their prejudice because they don't respect India because it was ruled by the British and Mughals. Notice they give more respect to the British Raj and the Mughals.

Contributions of Brahmins for defending the nation from foreign aggression by fighting with them like a soldier was 0%.

Yes well you did have a brahmin named Chanakya/Kautilya who helped Chandragupta and his Arthashastra was beneficial.

There are many practicing Brahmins who are not able to slove a Mathematical equations but at the same time there are many Dalits who can solve those Mathematical equations quiet conveniently. But as per Brahmins they came from Head of God then they are supposed to solve all that present in this world then why are not able to match with the IQ level, rational and logical reasoning of people belonging caste lesser than theirs. This contradicts their very basic statement that Brahmins came from the head of God whereas rest of the caste people came from other parts of the God's body that means other parts of God's body are more intelligent, smart and have rationaly and logically reasoning then those Brahmins who came from the head of God.

That's true. Going by their rationale Brahmins are all supposed to be all bright and intelligent, but we all know this isn't true. If Dalits were supposed to be not intelligent, it a surprise they can do just as well as anybody else given the chance. It just shows how the hereditary caste system really messed up India. Imagine when India was being invaded, India probably had some weak men defending the nation just because they are born into Kshatriya families and the real fighters born into other castes were not allowed to fight.

ombakth · April 2, 2007

Chanakaya was from Ajivika another part of Ancient Indian Dharmic religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanakya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajivika

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

Chanakya was not a pure Brahmin.

You can say many practices like Hinduism, Ajivika, Animism, Carvaka , Buddhism, Jainism.

http://www.peenef2.republika.pl/angielski/hasla/a/ajivika.html

Take for e.g. there were many tribes that were present in Ancient India. These tribes had their priest whom now people collectively refer as Brahmin when all these tribes were merged to form Hinduism. Sometimes the Priest(Brahmin) of one Tribe were consider to be higher than the Priest(Brahmin) of other tribe. In some tribes the duties of Priest was performed by the King himself hence the King himself could be termed as Brahmin of that particular tribe. Just like in some Todays South Indian where their house gods (ganas of Shiva) called Bhutas are worshipped by them through the elder member of their family who is like a Priest inaddition to this they go to normal Hindu temples in which they consider Bhatta as the priest. Now Bhatta is the contemporary of Pandit of North India meaning Learned man but when all these tribes were merged they were clubbed into Brahmins. This is the reason why even the North Indian Brahmins are somewhat different than the South Indian Brahmins.

As there were many tribes some of the members of same tribes settled in different places and hence they got detached from the origin. Like the Jadhavs of Marathis and Yadavs of Biharis are one and same people but now if you find a Jadhdav and Yadav people together ou will think that they are different people this is because of practicing different cultures along many decades. Same applies to the Rashtrakrutas of South who used to speak Kannada invaded North and later on when their Northern part was dissected or splitted by other clans they remain detached from each other hence the Northern part of Rashtrakruta became Rathores and now if you bring a South Indian Rashtrakruta and a north Indian Rathore you will find a vast difference both in culture as well as in Language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtrakuta

Even the Present day Maharastra was once ruled by ashoka who as per today's generation was a North Indian that means Mumbai was once ruled by a North Indian and then it was ruled by Rashtrakuta South Indian but today political parties are again dividing Hindus in the name of Language like Marathi vs Biharis. UP and Biharis are actually Hardworking and Technical people but for these recent backlash to some extent even UP and Biharis are responsible because of the gun culture prevailing in North India, the way they use Gun openly it clearly indicates that in near future Bihar and UP will be converted into another Taliban. UP and Bihar is supposed to be the Dharmic land of Hindus, Jains and Buddhists is being corrupted by Gun culture. It looks like in near future if these gun culture and indecency continues in UP and Bihar then People of UP and Bihar will be discrespected whether they are innocent or not just like how innocent Dalits were treated. This is the reason why other people like Assamese, Nepalese and Maharastrians disrespect them. They should be proudly called as Brahta(elder brother word like Brahtashri of Mahabharata) and not Bhaiyas by their other fellowmen of this country who are currently disliking them because of their heritage, but this can be done only if they want to develop themselves and live and behave like a civilized person just like how our ancestors lived in Ancient Indian Dharmic religion and not like Talibanis.

Some of the tribes intermixed and formed a different tribe altogether like Greeks and Nagas, like some of the south Indians who pray to Murugan as well as perform Bhuta Kola and Nagardhane(Worship of Snake Idols).

Suppose there are two tribes which as a Priest, A King or Administor of Republic like Mahajapadas(Ancient Indian Republic), Workers and slaves captured during the war or indebted people who were not capable paying back the loans that they had taken from Traders or Business.

Nevermind, whatever it is but inorder to strengthen Ancient Indian Dharmic religion and India it is required to unite all Ancient Dharmic religion(Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism).

Even Zorasthrasium(Persian Aryans) can be considered as a part of Dharmic religion because they were among the Aryan organization and even they chanted ON which sounds similar to Om. But they consider Ahuras(Asuras) as good and Daeva Daivas(Devas) as bad exactly opposite of Indo-Aryans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daeva

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoraster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_and_Hinduism

The king Nebuchadnazzar (940 B. C.) who was also the lord of Reva-nagara (in Kathiawar OF Gujrat) and who belonged to Sumer tribe, has come to the lace (Dwarka) of the Yaduraja. He has built a temple and paid homage and made the grant perpetual in favour of Lord Neminatha, the paramount deity of Mt. Raivata. This inscription is of great historical importance. The king named Nebuchadnazzar was living in the 10th century B. C. It indicates that even in the tenth century B.C. there was the worship of the temple of Neminatha the 22nd. Tirthankara of the Jains. It goes to prove the historicity of Neminatha.

The literary evidence seems to be supported by an epigraphic evidence.1 In Kathiawar, a copper plate has been discovered on which there is an inscription.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neminatha

Some Persian even say that Abrahman and Zorasthutra were one and same person.

Real name of Abrahma was Abraham Ibrahim Zeradust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

Some people say that the decline of Buddhism and Jainism in India was because of Hindus but this is not fully correct. The decline of Buddhism and Jainism was because of the conquest of Arab who had demolished all Hindu, Buddhist and Jain monuments and temples in India. During the Arab conquest the part followers of Ancient Indian Dharmic religion who used to follow the practice of Idol worshipping merged together whereas Buddhist and Jains were reluctant to wage war against the invader because of their non violence and peace principle this was one of the cause of their decline. But even among Buddhist and Jains Kings there were many who tried to stop the invasion.

Why Arabs respect Moon obviously they don't pray to it but still they respect it? The reason is that they belong to Chandravansh.

During Haj their followers have to refrain themselves from eating meat. Earlier times they had to wear plain white clothe and shave off their head while going to Mecca. These practices resembles to the Swetambara sect of Jainism. Arabian Peninsula is very close to Sindh there are possiblities that Indian Ascetics Shraman(Sadhus and Rishis) might have gone to Arabian in BC era during and after the flood (Not the great flood which is common to most of the world religion).

Mohammud got his revelation of Koran in the cave where angel Gabriel appeared to him. Most of the Indian Ascetics(Sadhus, Rishis, Jain Digambara monks and Buddhist monks) used to live in caves. Probably one of them revealed Dharmic religion code to him. From Alakh Niranjan he mispronounced to Allah U Akbar. Different languages have different ways of pronouncing the same word as per their local accent.

Makadhwaja who was called the son of Hanuman was born by cloning this also proves that our scientific technology was high in ancient times.

But as per the story.

The story of Makardhwaja's birth is that although Hanuman remained celibate all his life, Makadhwaja was his son; when Hanuman had extinguished his burning tail in the ocean, unknown to him, a drop of his sweat had fallen in as well. Swallowing this sweat droplet, a fish then becomes pregnant. This is discovered when the fish is brought to Mahiravana's kitchen for cooking. Mahiravana raises the child, entrusting him to guard Patalpuriis gates. Hanuman is unaware of any of this. Although Makardhwaja knows his father is Hanuman, yet had never seen him. So, when Hanuman introduces himself to Makardhwaja, he seeks Hanuman's blessings but decides to fight him as part of his duty as guardian of the gates. Hanuman subdues him and ties him up before entering Patalpuri to rescue Rama and Lakshmana.

It could be possible that instead of Fish the mother of Makadhwaja was actually a Lady from MatsyaKula(Something from the Kholi fisherman tribe). In recent years we have many ways to give birth to young ones without real phsyical intercourse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman

Patala which is the other end of Earth that is America. Even Maya culture were similar to our Ancient Indian Culture.

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/connections/Americas.php

There was one recent Incident in which the Brahmins of Puri temple did not allowed a non Hindu foreigner into the temple. These Brahmins should understand that our culture is a strong culture formed from Admyathik(Spiritual) Heritage we should not be like followers of Islam who don't allow non muslim to enter into Mecca. These Brahmins should understand that no one can break our Dharmic Heritage take for e.g. when Islam spread from Arabian Peninsula it converted most of the countries like IRAQ, IRAN, TURKEY etc.. to Islam even when Christanity spread it converted most of the European countries to Christanity but inspite of both of them coming to India they hardly managed to convert few among us to Islam and Christanity. It is impossible to remove Dharmic culture from India. But if these Brahmins they don't give up their ego then it will be very difficult to retain our culture. Whoever it is whether a Brahmin or a Dalit whether a Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, Sikh and Parsis(Zorasthrians) are all part of Dharmic culture hence they should respect each other like fellow human beings and concentrate in developing our Dharmic culture and India.

A Dalit is equal to a Brahmin hence he should be allowed to any temple that belong to any Dharmic religion in India and Abroad. To further reduce these castewise differentiation SC, ST and OBC reservations should be removed and instead of that EBC(Ecnomical Backward Class) reservations should be made which can benefit all poor Dalits, OBCs, Tribes and Even Brahmins. This will restrict Rich Brahmins, Tribes, OBCs and Dalit from reservations because they can offered to study and do some other business. After few years people will forget whether their ancestor were Dalit or a Brahmin but if SC, ST and OBCs are still retained they these things will be still in their memories that they are dalits. Today hardly anybody recognizes whether his colleague is a Dalit or a Brahmin but if they still carry on their SC, ST and OBCs quotas they are very likely to indentified as Dalits or Brahmins. Also, this will help in giving Job and Oppertunity for the one who deserves whether he is a Dalit or a Brahmin because we want our Country should Grow and devlop so that it can benefit every one.

These Naxalite are investing money in arms and ammunition and harming the intergrity of our Motherland. Instead of that they can invest money in educating under privillege people and starting Job oppertunity for them and hence raising their standard of living and help in developing our country. Just like Shri Babasaheb Ambedkar they should raise their standard of living and develop oppertunities of them but just like what some Brahmins did in ancient times because of which Hindus were divided these Naxalite are further dividing them. Shri Babasaheb Ambedkar did not picked up arms but still he managed to uplift most of the low caste people and also he was the most learned man of his times who made our constitution.

I respect Sri Ram, Sri Krishna, Mahaveer Vardhman, Gautam Buddha and Guru Nanak.

I respect Sri Ambedkar who made consitution for us than any Brahmin who did not benefited the country in any real sense.

I respect real Shraman(Sadhu, Rishis, Acharyas, Munis, Baba, Aghoris, Yogis, Swamis, Buddhists and Jains) who developed and contributed to our Ancient Indian Dharmic culture than any Brahmin who divided our Ancient Indian Dharmic culture.

Everthing was Historical.

April 2, 2007

sad to see this becoming a brahmin-bashing thread.

hindu12 · April 2, 2007

sad to see this becoming a brahmin-bashing thread.

No one is "bashing" Brahmins here. Please don't be so sensitive. People don't enjoy talking about Brahmins. We are just speaking of the realities in the world we live in and unfortunately Brahmins haven't been the greatest in terms of equality as well as corrupting certain aspects of Hinduism. Muslims and Christians are equally as responsible but they are external and the damage from Brahmins is within. This does not mean ALL Brahmins are bad. But unfortunately, in my opinion the "bad" is on the larger end.

Was Karna the greatest archer?

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