Caste is only by birth-never by gunas

[maadhav]

<< there are fair skinned south indians, these are the aryans that invaded south, >>

 

an aryan means one who accepts the authroity of the vedas and lives by it. so, aryan culture or the vedic culture has not invaded in india, but india is the cradle of the vedic culture.

 

[Guest guest]

Dravidian? The aryan-dravidian fairy tale. See what is dravidian according to manu samhita. Not like you care for reality anyway.

 

What does dark and fair prove? You ait proponnents cannot answer properly, just make up more twisted mythology. The dark and fair people of india are all caucasians. North africans are caucasians as well, brace yourself, even the pitch black ones. And africans have colored eyes.

 

What proof is their of 'aryan' invasion? Twisted proof, nothing else.

 

There is much proof of some sort of invasion from europe, the ignorance invasion. They have been bringing ignorance into india for the past 2500 years and continue doing so.

[Guest guest]

{I found this funny...He is comparing pooja bhatt aishwarya rai...amir khan and a native villager for his aryan invasion theory. This proves the basic foundation on which AIT is built.}

 

the thing is he tried to make out that Aishwariya Rai is of Aryan ancestery who he settled in the north. But Aishwariya Rai is Actually south Indian, so that goes against his theory. Rani Mukherjee is bengali which is in the east of India.

[xxvvii]

you cannot generalise. there are fair skinned south indians, these are the aryans that invaded south, but they represent very small percentage compared to north indians. sorry you cannot see this.

there are dravidians all across india (like in bihar, bengal, etc...), but highest pure form is found in tamilnad. where are you from?

------------

No. Aryans only invaded the north & fair skinned south Indians are the descendants of peaceful north immigrants. In fact, typical dravidians exist in the north. In an indian TV program, I saw the villagers s.where in uttar pradesh are mediterraneans with long face & oliver color. Dark skinned south indians are not dravidians but the blacks that accepted dravidian blood & culture. That's the reason why they have 2 origins from both north & south.

 

In a foreigner's opinion, S is a typical Indian. She will not be recognized as a westerner wherever she goes. To my surprise, some Indians think her look to be not so indian. Yet Fat may be except for her brows & lips.

[Guest guest]

Hey Guesttt:

 

U must be a Brahmin who Hates lower Caste. You are Unclean. You are supposed to see god in every living being, thats a brahmin. Lord Krishna said Varna is determind By Qualities, Even a Dog-Eater can become a Brahmin if he has that quality. A brahmin can also be a sudra if he is Not up to mark.

[Guest guest]

Where's the proof? HARD evidence. If there is none, it is merely a theory, and one that can't be substantiated.

 

All we have is conjecture and supposition. It could be true, it may not be true.

 

Your reasoning is faulty for why it HAS to be true though. Color does not mean anything. Even in the puranas and Mahabharata, etc. there are referrals to marriages of kings to queens from other lands and stuff.

 

Greek invasion, Persion invasion, many invasions could have tainted the blood of Hindus. What does that mean? All it means is that Hindus are not of one race. It does not mean that Hinduism did not originate in India. It does not mean the Vedas came from outsiders. It only means Hindus are NOT of one race.

 

Also, if you firmly believe in AIT, why are you even a Hindu? Why not try to trace back the ancient beliefs that you believe more realistically reflect proper Hinduism? Why denote your caste? Why pray to Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma if they are "Aryan" in origin?

 

Unless, of course, you are scum, and choose to associate with a religion that oppressed the natives (at least according to your beliefs)

[Guest guest]

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Anthro/sud_afr.html

 

nasal index

[Guest guest]

Comparing preeti Jinta with a common south Indian girl is wrong.Preeti zinta is in cine field because she is the selected prettiest girl in north India.

 

Compare her with such a southerner.Compare preeti zinta with Sree devi.She is a kamma naidu girl from sivakasi(tamilnadu)Now where do you go?

 

There are many fair tamil and telungu actresses and actors who are non bhramin and are very fair.

 

Actresses-Meena,Sneha,ramba,ambika...

 

actors----Ajith,aravind sami,MGR...

 

Now compare them with northerners.There are many north indians.Rajini kanth(marathi)is a classic example.

 

Aryans invaded only north?I thought they invaded and mixed all of india.Soth indians are descendents of "peaceful north Indians?".Why did peaceful north Indians invade???Why do they intermix?

 

In caste ridden olden days any child born of such invasion would have been killed or outcasted.

 

I dont follow your theory of aryans invading only "ertain communities selectively".Why did theys top with north?What prevented them from coming down to south?

 

In kerala all girls irrespective of caste are very fair.Men too.In tamilnadu even in kallar caste(oldest caste) many fair actors have come up.

 

karthik,comedian vivek,radhika All these were very popular for their physical features.karthik was very fair and was a dream hero of college girls.His son gowtham prabu is now acting and he too is fair.

 

Gounder is one typical oldest south Indian caste.Kovai sarala belongs to that caste.She is a comedian.But she is fairer than any bhramin girl in north india.

 

Even in dalit villages many girls are born fair.Immediatly dalits will name her as "pappathi" meaning "hramin girl", since she is fair.There are many such "apathis" in tamilnadu.

[Guest guest]

problem is for your definition of fair means brown color, my definition of fair means white.

[sampath]

Hi, all I find this interesting.Aryan theory based on colors.Now both sides are generalizing huge assumptions regarding colors.Anyway, this aint no research,okay.

 

Ramba mentioned is white,not brown.Meena too.Sridevi too.But Karthik is a bit dark compared to northies.But sarala is real white.

 

I can think of many "white" colored actresses.Soundarya,vaijayanthi mala,vinitha,radhika,gowthami,so many.

 

This color theory has no validity.Peace is what I request from both of you people.Shanti,shanti

 

 

[Guest guest]

Comparing Priety Zinta is unfair as she is actually from a mixed-race caste, the Zinta's are the offspring of Rajput women and British men who adopted rajput culture and settled in India.

[Guest guest]

Race is the facial structure, body type, eyes and hair structure. Many South Asians have sharp Caucasian features with darker skin color. This proves race and skin color are not the same. Eye color, hair color and skin color are all governed by variances in melanin, keratin and keratine. More keratine means less melanin and, to eyes that means from black they turn dark brown, the brown, then light brown, then hazel then blue or green. Same with skin and hair color from black to dark brown to brown, olive then beige, then pink and with no melanin there comes white. However the race is seperate, since race is structural in a scientific definition of race. Light to white skinned Japanese and Chinese aren't caucasian because they have no caucasian facial features and body type. And very light skinned Negro featured people aren't caucasian either. But very dark skinned Indian and south Italian people tall with very sharp caucasian features are caucasian. In America over the last 100 years, northern European people were only let in, which changed after the 1930's and on. Northern Europeans are more a ruddy fair or pure white color with Caucasian features. Where as Southern Europeans, Middle Easterners and many Asian Indians both Northern and Southern are of sharp caucasian features but darker in hair, eyes and skin and many are tall. 'Brown Caucasians' so to speak. In Anglo-Saxon circles of the Western European and American world, white color or fair color and caucasian are associated with each other. When in fact only 20% of the caucasian race is white or pink in color with blonde hair and light eyes. Many tall handsome Indians from India though dark skinned have very sharp caucasian features and aren't looked at as "non-white" in America. Maybe ethnic yes, not not "non-white" and Black Americans many of whom are mixed with Anglo-Saxon white, are lighter than many Indians, but those Indians with the caucasian features are just thought of as dark but not "non-white" here in America. Since there are many south Italians who are very dark skinned but have Caucasian features as well. In America if you are tall and caucasian featured and dark skinned you are considered ethnic but not considered non-white. Only Black/Negro and Chinese raced people are considered "non-white". But remember when you guys think of "them white people" you are refering to the WASP, the White Anglo Saxon Protestant. But Italians used to not be considered white in America. But now they are considered white. Because they are dark skinned and dark haired and dark eyed to the south of Italy. But they have Caucasian features, most do, some have black features also. But all non-Anglo-Saxon or non-Western European people in America are considered "white people of color" and this was applicable to many asian Indians when they came to America is the 1960's but they keep changing the classifications, it is funny. In the 1960's they called Asian Indians 'White', in the 1970's they called them 'Other' , now they call them "Asian". It's all funny. But, India is of so many different races from all the different migrations and settlements and invasions over the last 6500 years. From the White Mediterraneans who mixed with Aboriginal tribals creating the Dravidians to the Nordic White Aryans mixing with the Dravidians. Not to mention the Mongoloids, and East African migrations as well. So it is safe to say that if you are Asian Indian, knowing what race of Indian you are can be differentiated by looking at the facial features, hair structure, eye structure, body type and height. My parents came to America in 1961 as Scientists, I was born and raised in Michigan in 1973. They are of the Rajput caste of India. I am 6'4" tall, lean muscular build around 197 lbs. brown eyes, with sharp caucasian features, wavy-straight glossy hair, sharp pointy nose. And work in the Aviation Industry. People always ask me what I am, I love it when they do. Because I look like at least 10 different nationalities, hehe. People aren't sure if I am: Spanish, Cuban, Sicilian, Arab, Iranian, Asian Indian, southern Greek, Egyptian, Mexican. It is pretty funny. Hehe. I ask people to guess most say Arab or Spanish. Since I have dark skin but have White features. Some think I am Lebonese, I could put anything down I want. I look like Ray Romano on that comedy show 'Everyone loves Raymond'. He's a dark skinned Sicilian-American, I have his look. Culturally I am 100 % American, I was brought up Western and American, so that's probably why people think I am more like Spanish or Mexican or Sicilian or something. And I am a non-denominational Christian. The only thing that is Indian of me is my name. But to Westerners they think it is English since many Sanskrit words sound English. Hehe.

But at one time all tribes of mankind were in one nation and drifted out everywhere over the world. And people roamed the Earth everywhere. Arabs and Spanish and many Asian Indians were basically classified as "white people of color" in America, and that excludes the non-Caucasian featured people, the ones without the caucasian pointy nose and facial structure and the medium to tall body type.

 

Posted by: ELECTROMECHANICS at December 7, 2003 09:31 AM

 

 

Race is basically the skull structure, the facial structure, the nose, and height and hair structure. People who are medium to tall (from 5'8" to 6' plus), with leprotine (sharp pointy noses) nasal indexes, the oval or long skull, round eyes, concealed cheek bones straight to wavy hair and slim to very built, are Caucasians. The colors are just that, color but not race. Hair, eye, skin colorings are all in variance of melatin to keratine, and have nothing to do with race. However there is a cut off point of brown but not dark brown or black skin. Many Asian Indians fit in the Caucasian mold in all regions of India, as well as many that don't. There are South Indians who are tall and Caucasian and European looking. And many Punjabis who are short, and flat nosed and Negro looking, more aboriginal and negro mixed. So India is just a land of invaders, a no man's land still practicing outdated original invaders ways of life, even though it has all but vanished into the swarm of one big mixed race, all exhibiting looks from Northern European, Southern European, Arabic, Persian and North African.

 

- ELECTROMECHANICS -

 

Posted by: ELECTROMECHANICS at December 23, 2003 11:41 PM

I think you are generally mistaken about some punjabis having south indian features. Many of the "negro" looking punjabis are actually from other southern states who have emigrated to The Punjab. The most common found in Punjab are baha's who are from Bihar and are mixing but still keeping their traditons and values.

 

 

[Guest guest]

There are scientifically speaking, no such things as Aryan or Dravidian races. The three primary races are Caucasian, the Mangolian and the Negroid. Both the Aryans and Dravidians are related branches of the Caucasian race generally placed in the same Mediterranean sub-branch. The difference between the so-called Aryans of the north and Dravidians of the south is not a racial division. Biologically both the north and south Indians are of the same Caucasian race, only when closer to the equator the skin becomes darker, and under the influence of constant heat the bodily frame tends to become a little smaller. While we can speak of some racial differences between north and south Indian people, they are only secondary.

 

For example, if we take a typical person from Punjab, another from Maharash- tra, and a third from Tamilnadu we will find that the Maharashtrians generally fall in between the other two in terms of build and skin color. We see a gradual shift of characteristics from north to south, but no real different race. An Aryan and Dravidian race in India is no more real than a north and a south European race. Those who use such terms are misusing language. We would just as well place the blond Swede of Europe in a different race from the darker haired and skinned person of southern Italy.

 

Nor is the Caucasian race the "white" race. Caucasians can be of any color from pure white to almost pure black, with every shade of brown in between. The predominent Caucasian type found in the world is not the blond-blue-eyes northern European but the black hair, brown-eyed darker skinned Mediterranean type that we find from southern Europe to north India. Similarly the Mongolian race is not yellow. Many Chinese have skin whiter than many so-called Cauca- sians. In fact of all the races, the Caucasian is the most variable in its skin color. Yet many identification forms that people fill out today in the world still define race in terms of color.

 

 

[maadhav]

hinduism and therefore hindus do not think of race, but just dharma, vedic dharma and culture.

 

[subroto]

Yes hindus just think about dharma..because in this life you can be a fair skinned northerner, in your next life you could be an african or chinese...your atman has no race. If you fight over race then you have failed to grasp the concept of the hindu dharma..god created different races for a reason.

[Guest guest]

subroto

 

can you tell the reason for which god created different races .

[xxvvii]

Where's the proof? HARD evidence. If there is none, it is merely a theory, and one that can't be substantiated.

All we have is conjecture and supposition. It could be true, it may not be true.

Your reasoning is faulty for why it HAS to be true though. Color does not mean anything.

-----------

Yes, AIT is only a "conjecture and supposition" by now. But color doesn't mean nothing, otherwise why are aliens so intere. in it?

 

Also, if you firmly believe in AIT, why are you even a Hindu? Why not try to trace back the ancient beliefs that you believe more realistically reflect proper Hinduism? Why denote your caste? Why pray to Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma if they are "Aryan" in origin?

-----------

Not Hinduism but Brahmanism.

 

Unless, of course, you are scum, and choose to associate with a religion that oppressed the natives (at least according to your beliefs)

-----------

Don't abuse me. I'm not a racist at least. The prerequisite of varna by gunas is the rules to ensure varna's firmness. In other words, any attempt to bypass its hierarchies must be intercepted according to the rules. So you'll not be fully satisfied even if varna by gunas comes true.

 

At last I should point out that a person develops his/her spirituality gradually. So your past should be taken into consid. of your varna.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

 

 

before we knock the verna system based on birth there are few facts worth considering, sure Lord Shree Krishna says four verna are my creation based on guna and karma

 

 

How did the system work?

Who decides the Varna?

What is the function of Dharmadev/Yamraj? How is death karma and birth related?

If the separation of ones dharma based on past karma does not happen here? Where else can it be?

Is our birth an accident?

This is what Shree Krishna also says

BG 6.41/42 Pious living entities is born into a family of righteous or rich aristocracy or takes birth in a family of transcendentalist----

Bg 9.32 O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth--women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination.

 

Arjun the dear friend of Lord Shree Krishna always addressed Karan as sut putra and did not give him the respect he deserved although he was by nature and birth a ksatriya(this fact was not common knowledge). Arjun only knew him as suta putra.

Was Arjun wrong? No, he was guided by the apparent birth of that great warrior although he had the same blood running in him.

Lion will produce a lion rabbit will give birth to a rabbit

If you grow a particular verity of mango it will give you that type of fruit

 

Birth is no ones fault it is soul’s choice and qualification through karma and it is through guna and karma we will mould our future here or there after.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[maadhav]

<< Who decides the Varna? >>

 

in the vedic system, a guru at a gurukula with whoma child lives till 25 years, recommends teh student at graduation wht varna he is. he kniws it beacse he has seen teh gunas and karmas of the child, and skills and knowldege of teh child.

 

in our times, each person decides or finds out what strong guna he/she has, and then he should do karma that are compatible with that guna. if he chooses karma for which he has no strong gunas, he would be a failure many times. that tells that karma is not for him.

 

in most cases it is easy for a child to pick up gunas and karmas of his father or mother. thus the family of each varna continues.

 

note that each varna has equal oppertunity to go to god.

 

"sve sve karmaNi abhirata

samsiddhi labhate nara" - krishna/gita

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

<< Who decides the Varna? >>

 

Re

(in the vedic system, a guru at a gurukula with whoma child lives till 25 years, recommends teh student at graduation wht varna he is.)

 

Is this your view, are you able to support this with any evidence, as far as I know the children were given upanayana at a very early stage. These are samskaras based on birth and performed in childhood.

They learnt skill according to their samskaras. Did sudras actually go to grukul?

For instance if we take example of guru Dron he only thought Ksatriyas or Parsuram only Brahmins.

Can you immagin the confusion if a perso belonging to one verna was declared another verna does he now give up his home and go live in different quarters? Don’t forget all the vernas lived in separate quarters, who would marry him? In a house hold you have all different vernas how do they live together?

 

Re

(he knows it beacse he has seen the gunas and karmas of the child, and skills and knowldege of the child.)

 

I have no doubt the guru knows, but in those days vernas were perfect the guru would teach I do not think they had to decide the vernas, I have not heard this any where.

With the onset of kali every thing is deteriorating and thus the confusion.

Re

 

(in our times, each person decides or finds out what strong guna he/she has, and then he should do karma that are compatible with that guna. if he chooses karma for which he has no strong gunas, he would be a failure many times. that tells that karma is not for him.)

 

This is not a perfect social order free for all.

 

Re

(in most cases it is easy for a child to pick up gunas and karmas of his father or mother. thus the family of each varna continues.)

 

Is the child picking up his parents gunas? Or is it that he has come with his own guna karma carrying on from where he left?

 

 

Re

 

(note that each varna has equal oppertunity to go to god.)

 

Any one who seeks him.

 

 

 

ye yatha mam prapadyante

tams tathaiva bhajamy aham

mama vartmanuvartante

manusyah partha sarvasah

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[maadhav]

ok, my view may not be how it really was.

 

my understand is that once we had a perfect vrnasrami society. then it deteriorated, and malpractice - varna by birth only - started.

 

in a perfect sysem, each varna receves due respect from all.

 

brahmanas were erspected most because they were helping the society advance spiritually. all wanted to live by dharma, knowing god, and going to god ws important for most peple.

 

kshatriyas were respected becaue they kept law and order in a society. nothing can be accomplished without law an order.

whthout their protection the asuras would not allow any one to practice dharma.

 

vaishyas were respected because a healty society does a lot of farming and trading. economical development is important for any society.

 

shudras were respected because any society needs labor and service. after the malpractice began, the shudras were treated as untouchables. that was sinful of the society and individuals.

 

then islam invasions in bharat killed many brahmans. the first thing the islam invaders would do is to round up brahmanas and dharma gurus and slaughter them. that way there is no one to preach dharma. next they would destroy temples. that way there is not a sociel institution where one can practice and learn or discuss dharma. next they would burn to ashes the vedic libraries. that way there are no source books from which one can learn about dharma and god. then they will build mosques on top of the destroyed temples. they will make sure that the temple moortis captured are buried under the mosques steps. that way hindu gods and hindus are severely insulted.

and we suffered this for 1000 years. still the hindus and hinduism survived, but we suffered immensely. now it is time we gain conrol in our homeland devabhoomi and prctice dharma correctly.

 

at this time, how is the situation in bharat, good or bad for the vedic culture? please describe honestly, and suggest what can be done to solve the problems.

 

every varna can help solve hindus' problems in bharat.

 

jai brahmans,

jai kshatriyas,

jai vaishyas,

jai shudras,

jai varnasramis,

jai bharat,

jai ganesh!

 

ajay to asuras,

ajay to asuric invaded ideologies.

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

Re

(ok, my view may not be how it really was.)

 

And that is very honest, by the way maadhavji I do not claim to know how it was either.

 

Re

(at this time, how is the situation in bharat, good or bad for the vedic culture? please describe honestly, and suggest what can be done to solve the problems.)

 

In one word

BAD.

 

I have always been of the opinion that one has to live with dharma first and only then one can become qulified to preach.Our Bharat faces huge problems both from within and without.I find we are too disunited, our media has to learn first and formost to be Dharmic and Desh premi.

 

When i said to you earlier koi sari disa dekhati nathi this is what i ment, we are leaving our dharma, many are blaming the verna system but in reality we are abandoning our dharma in prefrance to western ways beleiving their propoganda.

 

 

Re

(every varna can help solve hindus' problems in bharat.)

 

I agree.

 

jai brahmans,

jai kshatriyas,

jai vaishyas,

jai shudras,

jai varnasramis,

jai bharat,

jai ganesh! Vighna Vinasak.

 

 

(ajay to asuras,

ajay to asuric invaded ideologies.)

 

Pardon me maadhavji, ajay means undefeated but yes defeat to asuras and their ideologies, we need the media to help us.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[maadhav]

<< I find we are too disunited, our media has to learn first and formost to be Dharmic and Desh premi. >>

 

we need to help good people gain conrol over it.

it is not possible to have agreement on minutest detail, and it i s not necesary either. but we need to agree an dwhat our problems realy are, and what our combined interests are. once ttht done, we need to organise, plan, and act to solve the problems. communication is the first step to achieve anything. and the internet helps to communiate.

 

<< ajay means undefeated >>

 

yes, i meant paraajaya. thanks for correcting.

 

<< I have always been of the opinion that one has to live with dharma first and only then one can become qulified to preach. >>

 

sure. an adharmi is not qualified for preaching and also for a politician's position. teh hindu masses need to learn well how to utilize democratic process toe gt right polticians in power and throw out bad politicians.

 

[brinthan]

I've seen a lot of jokes saying "Hinduism was spread all around the world.", "Jesus was a hindu", blah blah....

Don't get mad at me for saying this. I'm a hindu too. But I think you should find your way back to reality. First of all, our religion's curse is Caste System. I don't care when it started, or when it was twisted. But it has affected (i don't know about other group of people that much) southern indians a lot (tamils). Even in the lowest caste, sudras, Brahmins had 3 more divions:

1) untouchability

2) unapproachability

3) unshadowbility.

 

I'm sure you guys know what those means by looking at the names. Before British comes to India, Southern India was suffering from Brahmins. All those castes were so in effect. Besides, Brahmins were indulging sexual relationships with "Devadasikal" (women who have studied Bharata Natya, and dance for god at the temple). Devadasikal started to stay in temple because they didn't have any homes. Brahmins said that they are property of god, therefore, as a representatives of god, they (brahmins) have the rights to have sexual relations with them (devadasikal). And they had sexual relations IN THE TEMPLE. Some families leave their first born girl child to the temple because they think it's a good karma to them. British made laws to stop these actions.

 

Brahmins still think that caste is only by birth-not by gunas. I've asked lots of brahmins I know, and they've answered the same. They said that caste is only by birth (atleast their caste "brahmins"). But it is funny to see now that they want to do sudras work just for their living (ha hah ha ha). Why don't they just be brahmins now too? huh?

 

I know after you read this, you guys are so angry at me. But We have to face the truth. We have to deal with this sooner or later, if not today, then tomorrow. So please, try to solve issues among our self than to point fingers and say that they are stupid to think that way.

[Guest guest]

1)The most accurate definition of Hindu is someone who follows the Varnashrama dharma.

 

2) If the shudra were divided into these three groups, were these divisions based on scripture? If so, then please reference, otherwise those divisions are man-made and not recommended by the Vedas.

 

3) All your claims about the treatment of southern Indians , sex with Devadasikal must be backed up with facts. Many Christian groups in Birtish India would make these things up...and even if they were not made up, it just shows how the true Varnashrama dhrma has been corrupted. Just like marriage has been corrupted to go against religious principles. That does not mean that marriage should be abolished. Similarly, the Vrnashrama Dharma must be resestablished according to scripture, not according to so-called Brahmins who want to consolidate their power.

 

4) The Brahmins who think that it is by birth are going against Bhagavad Gita. Therefore they are not brahmins. To give an example, a doctor's son who claims to be a doctor without being trained is not a doctor. And people should not go to him for treatment...

 

5) The key is to implement the Varnashrama Dharma as is described in the Vedas. Just like in the movement that I am part of, anybody wh shows the personality and inclination of a brahmin can become a brahmin