Seeking knowledge from guest ji of Advaita Philosophy thread

October 2, 2004

This continues the previous discussion in the thread “Advaita Philosophy” of Shri Barney. I was a guest there. To avoid confusion that discussion of 2 guests gives rise to, I have assumed a name here.

I invite guest ji to participate.

********"quantity means that my being qualitatively god is given by the supreme not by myself"

i am god...but my being god is given by someone else... so there's a "little", subordinate god, me... and a "big" supreme god who gives to me the features that i obviously have not created by myself ****************

You say individuality is eternal part and parcel of Lord. But then again you say my being a God is given by someone else. If something is given then it must have happened at some or other time?

************ We live originally in the spiritual world, vaikunta.. some of us (inconceivably) choose freely to forget god and to illude our selves to be the supreme..********************************

I fail to understand and also feel ashamed as to why one being in Vaikuntha will still come down.

*********variety is the way of existence of the spiritual world.. by variety relationships are possible and from relationships ,, bliss*************

This also I don’t understand. Bliss is pure God principle. God is bliss. God teaches us that HE is within and without. So, why an entity called relationship is required for bliss? I read in this forum somewhere that (according to some Upanishad) one who loves God as something other than oneself then that one is considered a beast by the Devas. Is it true? Can we ignore upanishadic teaching? Or is the quote wrong?

Also I feel that relationships are fragile. Like you yourself said that even while being in Vaikuntha some desire freedom and fall down. So, being in Vaikuntha is not the final liberation? Is it true?

I have read Gita, which says:

A true yogi observes Me in all beings and also sees every being in Me. Indeed, the self-realized person sees Me, the same Supreme Lord, everywhere.(6.29)

For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.(6.30)

Such a yogi, who engages in the worshipful service of the Supersoul, knowing that I and the Supersoul are one, remains always in Me in all circumstances (6.31).

Lord states that such a yogi remains always in Me in all circumstances. But you say that some of us fall down. Does it mean that being in Vaikuntha is not being “A true yogi who observes Lord in all beings and also sees every being in Lord”?

I am getting more and more confused. But I’m sure you will get me out of this confusion.

**************••these "some" are eternal like the infinite souls who live eternally in the world of god

••god and his "parts" and "parcels" are simultaneous.... eternal

••we are eternally independent... we can choose to remain with god.. we can choose to go away*********************

This part confuses me. Though you seem to be the most knowledgeable person on this site but this does not appear to be logical to me. May be my understanding is not ripe.

How can an eternally independent and free willed entity be also eternally part and parcel of God?

Is it that some parts of the Lord revolt?

************************••the original cause (of this world) is our freedom.. we want to be free from god, a godless world is exactly like that**********************

Again I am confused as to why one residing in Vaikuntha should want to be free from God. Is being in Vaikuntha bondage?

Or, is it that such entities are still deluded that Bliss is in relationship or that desirable objects are outside the consciousness?

My curiosity regarding: what is the cause for the “my”, which alone (as you have said) gives rise to all ills, still remains. Who says “ME”. Does God also say “ME” sometime? What is the difference between, say Vishnu saying “ME” and Jigyasu saying “Me”. One “me” is within another “ME”. From the being that appears to be Jigyasu can a part come out desiring freedom and then start an independent consciousness?

**********so this world exists because we want it*************

That makes some sense. This would mean that we willed the world? So, we are the creators. Since, why should God create a hate filled world?

***************** ••you're not ungodly.. you are an eternal spiritual soul made of eternity, consciousness and bliss. When you come in the material world to experience the absence of god, is your material body who suffers, not your self. And this suffering helps you when some religion offers to you the possibility to go back home to god. If you were happy you'd remain in the material world*****************************

If I’m not ungodly and if I am an eternal spiritual soul made of eternity, consciousness and bliss then why should I come to the material world at all? Is the material world a better existence?

If I am not ungodly then what am I? If I am an eternal spiritual soul made of eternity, consciousness and bliss, then why do I get perturbed, get pangs of jealousy etc. etc. And this is true of the whole Universe.

If I am not ungodly, then why I am deluded? Can God principle be deluded? Can the pure consciousness (that God is) be deluded? Can Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma be deluded?

I do not know about what you will say. But please enlighten me. Can it be due to the notion “I am this or that” within the consciousness. I have read some very knowledgeable saints who say that on account of such momentary notion “I am this or that” (lasting a billionth of a second in the pure consciousness) countless universes appear (apparently lasting billions of years). And on account of such momentary lapse, the Lord has to undergo penance and even drink poison (of the Universe).

Any way I will be under your guidance. I want to understand: If I’m not ungodly then where from the aspects of ungodliness arise; where the ungodliness resides? If everything is within God, then how at all the ungodliness arise. Or is it that the ungodliness is the Leela (some people call it Maya)?

Jigyasu

Ganeshprasad · October 2, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Welcome Jigyasu

You have posed some very nice questions here and i hope the guestji will be able to do justice and give you some answers, but i noticed you did not seek clerification to one of his answer, which i would like to know.

re(••is your material body who suffers, not your self. And this suffering helps you when some religion offers to you the possibilty to go back home to god. If you were happy you'd remain in the material world)

I thought the material body is inert which can not experince suffering.

there is a cotradiction here which need clerification

Thank you.

Jai Shree Krishna

Pankaja_Dasa · October 2, 2004

I fail to understand and also feel ashamed as to why one being in Vaikuntha will still come down.

I don't claim to know the answer to this, there is no short answer at all, becuase it will keep coming up in your mind, like the athiest theory of what came first the chicken or the egg!

This may shed some light on the issue:

TRANSLATION

The Lord replied: O brahmanas, know that the punishment you inflicted on them was originally ordained by Me, and therefore they will fall to a birth in a demoniac family. But they will be firmly united with Me in thought through mental concentration intensified by anger, and they will return to My presence shortly.

PURPORT

The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord's sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord's devotees in Vaikuntha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuntha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

In Bhagavad-gita (4.8) also it is said that the Lord appears just to give protection to the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees. The nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world; therefore, when the Lord wants to fight, He has to come to this world. But who will fight with the Supreme Lord? No one is able to fight with Him! Therefore, because the Lord's pastimes in the material world are always performed with His associates, not with others, He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy. In Bhagavad-gita the Lord says to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, both you and I have appeared many, many times in this material world, but you have forgotten, whereas I remember." Thus Jaya and Vijaya were selected by the Lord to fight with Him in the material world, and that was the reason the sages came to see Him and accidentally the doorkeepers were cursed. It was the Lord's desire to send them to the material world, not perpetually, but for some time. Therefore, just as on a theatrical stage someone takes the part of enemy to the proprietor of the stage, although the play is for a short time and there is no permanent enmity between the servant and the proprietor, so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families. That a devotee should come into an atheistic family is surprising, but it is simply a show. After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord. Lord Buddha, for example, was an incarnation, yet he preached atheism: "There is no God." But actually there was a plan behind this, as explained in the Bhagavatam.

__ http://srimadbhagavatam.com/3/16/26/en1

and

jiva

Illuminations on Jiva-tattva

10-Gaudiya acaryas support the no-fall siddhanta.

We have heard the siddhanta that no one falls from the spiritual world personally from many many highly exaulted Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, in addition to our own Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [the conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world: Bhag. 3.16.26 purp], such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, recognized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as sastra-nipuna (scriptural genious), Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharaja, chief editor of the daily spiritual newspaper Nadiya Prakasa during and after the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Madhava Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, a leading disciple of Bhakti Prajñana Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa guru of Srila Prabhupada, and many others. And they are repeating what they learned from their Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his direct disciples. It is highly unlikely that they would say something different than that which was taught to them by their Guru Maharaja. These aforementioned Vaisnavas are seniormost in terms of their realizations and spiritual standing, so their knowledge and realization should not be completely disregarded. Additionally, our dear godbrother, the late Gour Govinda Maharaja, was highly learned in siddhanta and scrutinizingly studied the commentaries of our acaryas, especially Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He was known for his firm stand with the "No Fall" siddhanta. And we have living examples of godbrothers fixed in strong philosophical understanding in Sripad B. G. Narasingha Maharaja and Sripad B. V. Tripurari Maharaja. Here we do not see one iota of doubt as to the siddhanta.

Because Srila Prabhupada did make statements in support of both sides of this issue, it is very confusing to many of his disciples. A preaching strategy does however eliminate all contradictions and is not at all out of line with Srila Prabhupada's mood. Many examples of a preaching strategy by Srila Prabhupada can be found, as shown in section eight above. Many verses in this presentation were collected by disciples of Gour Govinda Maharaja in their concern to set matters straight.

Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaja, seniormost Gaudiya Vaishnava on the planet, both by age and spiritual assets, has provided detailed and substantial explanations of the no-fall siddhanta.

Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaja has written in Pinnacle of Devotion, page 15,

Being in Krsna's association, any spiritual being, whether kayavyuha, (expansion), sadhana-siddha, or nitya-siddha, will never, never, never take a material body in this world. They will never be opposed to Krsna. Because there is no maya in Goloka Vrndavana they can never forget Krsna. Only Yogamaya is there, helping the devotees to increase their prema for Krsna by arranging an opportunity for them to serve Him. Because there is no chance of falling from Goloka Vrndavana, siddha bhumi, no conditioned soul has ever come from there. Rather, they have come from the tatastha line, from Karanodakasayi Visnu.

Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaja, did not hesitate to state: "No." [The residents of the spiritual world do not fall down.] "It is very clearly written that the source of the jivas is the tatastha-sakti."

Srila Prabhupada writes similarly,

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord, and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are not the energetic. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purp.) [see also section four]

Visvambhara Goswami, the late and highly respected Radha-ramana goswami, [Vrndavana, India] stated with much astonishment:

They (Iskcon devotees) think like that? That the Lord's eternal associates fall from the spiritual world? I cannot believe it.

The entire Gaudiya mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura is not in doubt as to the conclusions in this regard, having heard it from their Founder-acarya. Nor are the many many scholars in doubt, who have stated that certain devotees do not even know their own siddhanta. We think that this should be taken as an indication that perhaps the forcibly legislated conclusions of these few devotees may be wrong.

We also present herein the statements of prominent acaryas and other authorities from sampradayas outside of our own Gaudiya sampradaya, who all clearly and emphatically state that the jivas of this material world have never been in the spiritual world—have not fallen from lila with the Lord:

Sri Pejwara Swami of Pejwara Mutt, Udupi (Renowned acarya of Madhva sampradaya):

The siddhanta is clear. How can there be any misunderstanding; to think that the Lord's associates have fallen?

Laksmi Tathachar, Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Karnartaka, (respected member of Ramanuja sampradaya)

It is not possible that those associating with Lord Visnu in Vaikuntha could ever fall down.

More statements are forthcoming. We invite our readers to submit substantiatable statements of prominent spiritual authorities. Use the comments submission form. Devotees are quick to point out the necessity of trnad api sunicena to others, but sometimes hesitate to admit their own frailities or mistakes. We humbly suggest that a mistake has been made in regards to understanding the actual Gaudiya siddhanta and we are deeply disturbed that it has made some of our senior godbrothers look very foolish in the eyes of so many sincere Vaisnavas and scholars. Let us not forget that even Krsna does not understand Himself fully. (SP Room Conv. London: Aug. 17, 1971)

------

Maybe should make seperate thread for this sorry.

October 2, 2004

Yes. this question just skipped me. How, unfortunate.

Come to think of it, it is the most important question. Isn't it?

Who suffers? Guest ji, we will all praise you when you clarify this doubt also. The body being non-intelligent possibly cannoy suffer. Someone else is suffering. Who is that?

Ganeshprasad ji, from what i have read during last few days. i feel that guestji is capable of clearing any doubt. Any doubt.

Jigyasu

October 2, 2004

Aum

Shri Govindram Ji,

Thanks for your kind effort. Some problems of my mind are, however, further intensified by your rejoinder. I pray that we all are able to see some light.

********The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all?*********************

I simply cannot accept that Lord’s desire to fight results in bombing of innocent individuals during war or His lust leads to raping of some hapless women. There must be some other aspect.

This brings up another issue about which I have queried our esteemed guest ji. The concern is that I failed earnestly to find any real cause for this evil filled universe. So, why the universe? You may care to provide an explanation.

************We have heard the siddhanta that no one falls from the spiritual world personally*************************************

Now, this contradicts what guest ji stated in the beginning.

************ We live originally in the spiritual world, vaikunta.. some of us (inconceivably) choose freely to forget god and to illude our selves to be the supreme..********************************

He stated that we are eternal dwellers of Vaikuntha but some go away and come back. To me it means that in Vaikuntha the seeds for going away and coming back are dormant and activated now and then.

*************Rather, they have come from the tatastha line, from Karanodakasayi Visnu********************.

Now, you provide a clue that the fallen angels are from the tatastha line, from Karanodakasayi Visnu. You have opened another front. I have a question: where from Karanodakasayi Visnu emerge? At the end of the chain, will you not find the Supreme Lord as the cause of everything?

***************According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord, and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are not the energetic. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport by SP.)***********

Living entities are energy of the Lord and not energetic. Wow. Now, I feel SP is deep. Can you please explain the following to all esteemed readers, without quoting very lengthy discourse?

If Jigyasu is pure energy then what is this finger which is typing? What is this body of Jigyasu? And if Jigyasu is not energetic then who is typing? If JIgyasu is not energetic then who is thinking? If some one else is doing the typing and the thinking then where is individuality of Jigyasu?

So, what is the nature of the brick and mortar and flesh and blood world? All these are energies but they appear (to our limited senses) to be solid? All these are not energetic, so they do not have their individual will but are driven by the shakti of one consciousness?

Finally you have dared to oppose Iskcon ideology. Your quote is as below:

*********the jivas of this material world have never been in the spiritual world—have not fallen from lila with the Lord***********

Earlier you stated that the fallen angels are from the tatastha line, from Karanodakasayi Visnu. I repeat the question: where from Karanodakasayi Visnu emerge?

Or, is the lineage of Karanodakasayi Visnu entirely different from the Lord? But you only quoted SP stating that the living entities are energies of Lord but not energetic. So, these are from Lord. Or would you say that energy of the Lord is different from the Lord?

Aum

October 2, 2004

You say individuality is eternal part and parcel of Lord. But then again you say my being a God is given by someone else. If something is given then it must have happened at some or other time?

••good question.... i want to clarify... i am speaking of emanation, not creation. The supreme is eternally emanating, mantaining and empowering the subordinates. Every life is eternal

I fail to understand and also feel ashamed as to why one being in Vaikuntha will still come down.

••me too... we are not free now, so we do not understand freedom

This also I don’t understand. Bliss is pure God principle. God is bliss. God teaches us that HE is within and without. So, why an entity called relationship is required for bliss?

••bliss is a feature, so if there's god and a feature this is variety. Then this variety cannot be less than the variety existing in the material world. So there's an infinite variety of existences in the perfection and variety generates relationships and relationship generate bliss

I read in this forum somewhere that (according to some Upanishad) one who loves God as something other than oneself then that one is considered a beast by the Devas. Is it true?

••it is true... we must not think that we are "other", nothing is outside god. But we are inconceivably also "others" because we undoubtly can fall prey of maya. So we are god and not god simultaneously

Like you yourself said that even while being in Vaikuntha some desire freedom and fall down. So, being in Vaikuntha is not the final liberation?

••liberation means freedom....

Lord states that such a yogi remains always in Me in all circumstances. But you say that some of us fall down.

••it is a very intelligent objection.. i think that the biggest obstacle is that we do not understand freedom.

Though you seem to be the most knowledgeable person on this site

••thanks...but i am only a poor pratictioner of vaishnavism.. many words but no realizations.

How can an eternally independent and free willed entity be also eternally part and parcel of God?

••again.... we are surely inside god, because god is the whole.. but we are also different by god because we are not supreme and we weren't.. the supremacy is an eternal feature of god. So it is necessary to accept a simultaneous oneness and difference (acynthia beda abeda tattva by sri chaitanya mahaprabhu)

What is the difference between, say Vishnu saying “ME” and Jigyasu saying “Me”?

••both you are individual.. the difference is that god's individuality contains also your one, your individuality does not contains god's one

One “me” is within another “ME”

••yes

From the being that appears to be Jigyasu can a part come out desiring freedom and then start an independent consciousness?

••no..because the BIG ME is infinite, there's no bondage or boundaries or something outside,The demonstration is that also the material prison/hospital is inside the whole.. the supreme

This would mean that we willed the world? So, we are the creators

••think about prison... if we make some crime we find that prison is already there. But prison is there because there's criminals

Since, why should God create a hate filled world?

••this world has be like that ... this is to grant to us the freedom to desire to go back to godhead

what do you think?

October 2, 2004

I thought the material body is inert which can not experince suffering.

you're right...it is our illuded mind who suffers

but mind, even if subtle, is material

October 2, 2004

This may shed some light on the issue:

govindaram prabhu... the acharyas say that we do not fall from goloka.. not that we do not fall from spiritual world

tatasta shakti, even if maya can be seen by it, it is spiritual world, not material world

Pankaja_Dasa · October 2, 2004

Vedabase.net {srimad bhagavatam} Krsna Is the Source of All Incarnations Canto 1.3

--

God is powerful and the power, we belong to power {minute}VERY small category, no confusion.

October 3, 2004

*********the jivas of this material world have never been in the spiritual world—have not fallen from lila with the Lord***********

Above is what shri Govindram ji posted.

And below is what you answer.

********govindaram prabhu... the acharyas say that we do not fall from goloka.. not that we do not fall from spiritual*****************

Govindram ji has cited some scripture whereas you have merely opionated.

It seems that Govindram ji believes that God and We are different but still he cites SP and others who probably believe otherwise. Govind ram ji does not this complicate and create confusion?

Pankaja_Dasa · October 3, 2004

I learnt everything from SP and others, I don't know where you got this from.

RE: The tatatsta sakti is also spiritual, read what I said 1st, understanding is not cheap business. I may sound arrogant but even I has to re-read that Chp I must have in my life time read it 5-6 times since over 2 years, I still don't understand it. Go read!

I would like to ask Guest which spiritual planet I fell from, cause I want my money back.

October 3, 2004

Aum

Dear Guest ji,

Thanks for your illuminating answers. I have few more (some of course same as before)

**********what do you think?**********

*******you're right...it is our illuded mind who suffers, but mind, even if subtle, is material******

Tell me what can I think? You have clarified to Ganeshprasad ji that mind is matter. Is matter not inert? Can it think of its own? Can it suffer?

I wonder who is wondering. Who is suffering? Can you please guide all of us? A material thing surely cannot suffer.

*************** ••it is true... we must not think that we are "other", nothing is outside god. But we are inconceivably also "others" because we undoubtly can fall prey of maya. So we are god and not god simultaneously**********************

*******************Like you yourself said that even while being in Vaikuntha some desire freedom and fall down. So, being in Vaikuntha is not the final liberation?

••liberation means freedom....*************************

************************I fail to understand and also feel ashamed as to why one being in Vaikuntha will still come down.

••me too... we are not free now, so we do not understand freedom*************************

I just searched through literature available in this site. Some are quoted below.

Brahma Sutras

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Gita

A true yogi observes Me in all beings and also sees every being in Me. Indeed, the self-realized person sees Me, the same Supreme Lord, everywhere.(6.29)

For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.(6.30)

Such a yogi, who engages in the worshipful service of the Supersoul, knowing that I and the Supersoul are one, remains always in Me in all circumstances (6.31).

BRIHADARANYAKA-UPANISHAD Part 1

FOURTH BRAHMANA.

1. In the beginning this was Self alone, in the shape of a person (purusha). He looking round saw nothing but his Self. He first said, 'This is I;' therefore he became I by name. Therefore even now, if a man is asked, he first says, 'This is I,' and then pronounces the other name which he may have. And because before (purva) all this, he (the Self) burnt down (ush) all evils, therefore he was a person (pur-usha). Verily he who knows this, burns down every one who tries to be before him.

-----

7. Now all this was then undeveloped. It became developed by form and name, so that one could say, 'He, called so and so, is such a one. ' Therefore at present also all this is developed by name and form, so that one can say,'He, called so and so, is such a one.'

---------

10. Verily in the beginning this was Brahman, that Brahman knew (its) Self only, saying, 'I am Brahman.' From it all this sprang. Thus, whatever Deva was awakened (so as to know Brahman), he indeed became that (Brahman); and the same with Rishis and men. The Rishi Vamadeva saw and understood it, singing, 'I was Manu (moon), I was the sun.'

Therefore now also he who thus knows that he is Brahman, becomes all this, and even the Devas cannot prevent it, for he himself is their Self.

Now if a man worships another deity, thinking the deity is one and he another, he does not know. He is like a beast for the Devas. For verily, as many beasts nourish a man, thus does every man nourish the Devas. If only one beast is taken away, it is not pleasant; how much more when many are taken! Therefore it is not pleasant to the Devas that men should know this.

End of citation

Sir, I hope you will not be offended at my trying to know about Brahman with your help. Reading all above scriptures I find that brahma gyani will never return. Br. upanishad as well as Gita state that: “Now if a man worships another deity, thinking the deity is one and he another, he does not know” and “such a yogi, who engages in the worshipful service of the Supersoul, knowing that I and the Supersoul are one, remains always in Me in all circumstances”.

But you say: “But we are inconceivably also "others" because we undoubtly can fall prey of maya”

I want to know whether we have become other after falling prey to Maya or are we eternally Maya bound and eternally different from GOD.

Br. Upanishad seems to state “Verily in the beginning this was Brahman”

Then Brahma Sutras as well as Gita state “One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns” and “remains always in Me in all circumstances”. Whereas you with equal conviction say: “We live originally in the spiritual world, vaikunta. Some of us (inconceivably) choose freely to forget god and to illude our selves to be the supreme”.

So, will that mean that all residents of Vaikuntha may not be Brahma Gyanis? Essentially, as I understand a Brahma Gyani realizes all beings in Lord and Lord in all beings. So, in Vaikuntha such knowledge may be lacking in some?

***************You say individuality is eternal part and parcel of Lord. But then again you say my being a God is given by someone else. If something is given then it must have happened at some or other time?

••good question.... i want to clarify... i am speaking of emanation, not creation. The supreme is eternally emanating, mantaining and empowering the subordinates. Every life is eternal**************************

Will you please take pains to explain “emanation”? How is it different from creation? Does emanation mean spirit becoming matter? Then please also explain whether emanation begins and ends at a particular time? When you say something is happening then it has to have a time component?

***********This also I don’t understand. Bliss is pure God principle. God is bliss. God teaches us that HE is within and without. So, why an entity called relationship is required for bliss?

••bliss is a feature, so if there's god and a feature this is variety. Then this variety cannot be less than the variety existing in the material world. So there's an infinite variety of existences in the perfection and variety generates relationships and relationship generate bliss***********

Gita states: One who finds happiness with the Self, who rejoices the Self within, and who is illuminated by the Self-knowledge; such a yogi attains Brahman and attains supreme nirvana. (5.24).

Sir, is it a bad practice to love the Lord who resides within everyone? Lord states that such people also attain Brahman and Nirvana. Now, I also have been told that Brahman is Bliss. So, on attaining Brahman will a devotee be devoid of Bliss?

**************How can an eternally independent and free willed entity be also eternally part and parcel of God?

••again.... we are surely inside god, because god is the whole.. but we are also different by god because we are not supreme and we weren't.. the supremacy is an eternal feature of god. So it is necessary to accept a simultaneous oneness and difference (acynthia beda abeda tattva by sri chaitanya mahaprabhu)****************************

***********One “me” is within another “ME”

••yes***********************

Dear guide please contemplate on this example. Pardon my insolence requesting you to contemplate. Please contemplate on a gold ring. Now, what is a ring, other than just a name and form? A ring is merely a word to describe a shape of the source material Gold (in this example). Tomorrow the ring will be remade into a chain—again a concept only. But Gold remains. Please contemplate.

Now, please enlighten me whether we remain in the Lord (infinite concsiousness) as real thing (infinite concsiousness) or as a concept (limited concsiousness)? If we are real, then what part/s of us are/is real? Limited concsiousness means that though infinite the Lord may have a notion: let me be Marilyn Monroe.

In this thread it has been said that all living entities are energy of the Lord but not energetic. What does it mean? Energy is real or being energetic is real? How can energy be non-energetic? This is a great paradox. I would be thrilled to obtain your insight.

********************What is the difference between, say Vishnu saying “ME” and Jigyasu saying “Me”?

••both you are individual.. the difference is that god's individuality contains also your one, your individuality does not contains god's one************************************

This would mean that God’s individuality has Bin Laden’s as well as George Bushs’ individualities. Why does God bear such contradictory individualities? If He simply wills to have a uniformly sattwik individuality then possibly everything would be sweet and nice. Why this does not happen?

Or does God have notions of contradictory individualities by saying “I am this” and “I am that” like we create individualities in our dream?

**********From the being that appears to be Jigyasu can a part come out desiring freedom and then start an independent consciousness?

••no..because the BIG ME is infinite, there's no bondage or boundaries or something outside,The demonstration is that also the material prison/hospital is inside the whole.. the supreme**********************************

Sir, you have also said: ****** ••you're not ungodly.. you are an eternal spiritual soul made of eternity, consciousness and bliss.

So, if the small “me” is also “spiritual soul made of eternity, consciousness and bliss”, then why cannot it give rise to individual consciousness that are different from “me”? Surely, there cannot be any limitation on a “spiritual soul made of eternity, consciousness and bliss”?

Sir, actually I have read somewhere that the so-called “me” also creates many other individualities in dream. But after the dream ends the individualities vanish and only “me” remains. Can it be a plausible thing?

Similarly, Maya you so often talk about. What is that Maya? Will you please explain that?

Can Maya be like a dream?

*****************This would mean that we willed the world? So, we are the creators

••think about prison... if we make some crime we find that prison is already there. But prison is there because there's criminals**********************

Is the prison there eternally? What then is the cause of such eternal prison? As far as I know the Lord is the only uncaused sat-asat. Then why a prison exists eternally like eternal hell?

Or, if it was created at some point of time then what was the cause? Why in the world of God (Vaikuntha) a need arose?

Guestji, you have not touched upon an earlier query of mine. Thus, I include it again.

I want to understand: If I’m not ungodly then where from the aspects of ungodliness arise; where the ungodliness resides? If everything is within God, then how at all the ungodliness arise. Or is it that the ungodliness is the Leela (some people call it Maya)? Or may be what we imagine to be ungodly is not ungodly? Will you please throw some light?

Aum

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Aum

October 4, 2004

I wonder who is wondering. Who is suffering? Can you please guide all of us? A material thing surely cannot suffer.

••we are suffering, but we are suffering by illusory problems.. so our suffering remains at mental stage. Soul is never affected

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns

••that's what i know also.. i can sincerely understand why we fall and why we come back...but i accept as a faith that once "at home" we will not repeat the experience

I want to know whether we have become other after falling prey to Maya or are we eternally Maya bound and eternally different from GOD.

••we are eternal, we are different and non different by god even in the perfect stage, the ones who fall are a little minority. So we are eternal individuals and we are not eternally in maya if we do not fall or if we choose to follow a religious process to find liberation

Essentially, as I understand a Brahma Gyani realizes all beings in Lord and Lord in all beings

••and also that he's an individual who have relationships with others and with a SuperOther who is God

So, in Vaikuntha such knowledge may be lacking in some?

••i have already attempted to explain... we now do not understand what can be to have a complete and full freedom, so we think that if one chooses to quit vaikunta, knowing surely also what will be his destination, he's mad... a lacking of something (rationality, knowledge and so on..). But again this has to be interpreted as a manifestation of freedom

Will you please take pains to explain “emanation”? How is it different from creation?

••it is a technical word.... fire and emanation of heat are simultaneous, there's not a moment of the existence of the fire when he does not "create" heat. So god being eternal emanates eternally the individual existence of his parts and parcels. No birth, no creation, no starting point

Sir, is it a bad practice to love the Lord who resides within everyone?

••absolutely NOT... this is the key... but we have to not mistake soul with super-soul. We are eternal spiritual souls and everyone of us has "aside" the param atma, sri ksirodakasay vishnu who's an expansion of vishnu/krsna

I also have been told that Brahman is Bliss

••yes..Param Brahman (=supreme spiritual existence) who is the whole but who is also "another" and who can relationate with us and exchange blissful relationships

A ring is merely a word to describe a shape of the source material Gold (in this example). Tomorrow the ring will be remade into a chain—again a concept only.

••this is the material world where the only real thing is the matter as a whole who give birth to shapes and very soon she destroys them. But spirit is another business... everything is real and simultaneous.. god as the WHOLE is real, god as a subject of love and relationships is real, the ring in the hands of god is real

Now, please enlighten me whether we remain in the Lord (infinite concsiousness) as real thing (infinite concsiousness) or as a concept (limited concsiousness)?

••real thing... our consciousness is so real that when we want to forget god, he has to use his potency (maya) to put us in the illusion.. otherwise we cannot forget because we are pure consciousness

In this thread it has been said that all living entities are energy of the Lord but not energetic. What does it mean?

••that the main difference between us and god is that we are emanated and he's the source of emanation.. not the opposite

This would mean that God’s individuality has Bin Laden’s as well as George Bushs’ individualities. Why does God bear such contradictory individualities?

••because we come in this world to forget the bliss of the spiritual world... so the alternative is war, suffering. And these roles are available of us to satisfy our desires to act independently by god in this material world

If He simply wills to have a uniformly sattwik individuality then possibly everything would be sweet and nice. Why this does not happen?

••if everything is sweet and nice it is spiritual world, so where will be our freedom to get out from it? freedom means to have all options

So, if the small “me” is also “spiritual soul made of eternity, consciousness and bliss”, then why cannot it give rise to individual consciousness that are different from “me”?

••simply we are not source of divinity, our divinity is a gift of the supreme.If we were able to act as supreme, we never suffered the supremacy of maya

What is that Maya? Will you please explain that?

••god is the source of everything, so he's the source of our forgetfullness of him. The energy who makes us forget is called maya.. (=what is not)

Is the prison there eternally?

••yes.. everything's god's emanation...prison too, so it's eternal. Nations and prisons are simultaneous.. there's no nations without prisons

What then is the cause of such eternal prison?

••our will to be rebels to the spiritual world

Then why a prison exists eternally like eternal hell?

••prisons exist eternally... but god, to grant us the freedom, gives the freedom to choose to come back to him through religions. So karma can only bound, karma is never a freedom instrument. It is god, that gives the various religions as a system to get out of the jail free.

tell me please what do you think

jaya sri krsna bhagavan

October 6, 2004

Aum

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Aum

***********I wonder who is wondering. Who is suffering? Can you please guide all of us? A material thing surely cannot suffer.

••we are suffering, but we are suffering by illusory problems.. so our suffering remains at mental stage. Soul is never affected******************

How can it be so? Mind is inert. How can an inert thing suffer? Please tell me who suffers when I suffer. The mind suffers or the body suffers? Or something that you don’t know suffers. Sir, you yourself said that mind is inert. Therefore it does not suffer.

In this relation there is another question? Why do you teach me that mind is inert? It seems to be the most active part of the so-called me?

******************Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns

••that's what i know also.. i can sincerely understand why we fall and why we come back...but i accept as a faith that once "at home" we will not repeat the experience****************

Sir, we were in home once.

Sir, isn’t it circular argument? Why go wrong way. We have come from there only. So how can one ensure no return from Vaikuntha which Brahma Sutras promise?

You have said: “i can sincerely understand why we fall and why we come back”. Can you tell us why?

******************I want to know whether we have become other after falling prey to Maya or are we eternally Maya bound and eternally different from GOD.

••we are eternal, we are different and non different by god even in the perfect stage, the ones who fall are a little minority. So we are eternal individuals and we are not eternally in maya if we do not fall or if we choose to follow a religious process to find liberation**************

*****************Essentially, as I understand a Brahma Gyani realizes all beings in Lord and Lord in all beings

••and also that he's an individual who have relationships with others and with a SuperOther who is God*************************

BG says

A true yogi observes Me in all beings and also sees every being in Me. Indeed, the self-realized person sees Me, the same Supreme Lord, everywhere.(6.29)

For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.(6.30)

BRIHADARANYAKA-UPANISHAD Part 1 says

FOURTH BRAHMANA

10. Verily in the beginning this was Brahman, that Brahman knew (its) Self only, saying, 'I am Brahman.' From it all this sprang. Thus, whatever Deva was awakened (so as to know Brahman), he indeed became that (Brahman); and the same with Rishis and men. The Rishi Vamadeva saw and understood it, singing, 'I was Manu (moon), I was the sun.'

Therefore now also he who thus knows that he is Brahman, becomes all this, and even the Devas cannot prevent it, for he himself is their Self.

Now if a man worships another deity, thinking the deity is one and he another, he does not know. He is like a beast for the Devas. For verily, as many beasts nourish a man, thus does every man nourish the Devas. If only one beast is taken away, it is not pleasant; how much more when many are taken! Therefore it is not pleasant to the Devas that men should know this.

End of citation

Despite Upanishad and Gita, you are still teaching me: “••and also that he's an individual”. Now, sir can an individual who has limited consciousness that “I am this” can ever see “Lord everywhere and sees everything in Lord”? Since such an individual is different from all other things of this Universe. The sutratma (the all pervading Lord) is not supreme for such an individual but the individuality is.

This is just a thought. You know all. So, you will judge better.

Br. Upanishad Also says: Therefore now also he who thus knows that he is Brahman, becomes all this, and even the Devas cannot prevent it, for he himself is their Self.

Can you throw light on the above?

***********************So, in Vaikuntha such knowledge may be lacking in some?

••i have already attempted to explain... he's mad... a lacking of something (rationality, knowledge and so on..). But again this has to be interpreted as a manifestation of. freedom************

We, the fallen beings are mad or the beings devoid of Maya in Vaikuntha are mad? Beings in Vaikuntha only fall. We the fallen beings strive to go up.

***************Will you please take pains to explain “emanation”? How is it different from creation?

••it is a technical word.... fire and emanation of heat are simultaneous, there's not a moment of the existence of the fire when he does not "create" heat. So god being eternal emanates eternally the individual existence of his parts and parcels. No birth, no creation, no starting point***********************************

Fire’s inherent nature is heat. Without fire there is no heat. And fire and heat are inseparable. Heat has no independent individuality. Emanation is inherent nature of the Lord. How can emanations have individuality?

***************Sir, is it a bad practice to love the Lord who resides within everyone?

••absolutely NOT... this is the key... but we have to not mistake soul with super-soul. We are eternal spiritual souls and everyone of us has "aside" the param atma, sri ksirodakasay vishnu who's an expansion of vishnu/krsna*********************

I am confused. If one has Param Atma inside one will love that Param Atman only. Loving the small soul will be to love the ego (which is emanation like heat from fire). Like you said heat is not independent of fire then fire is the real thing? Similarly, the emanated souls are nothing without Param Atman. So one should forget soul and love only super soul.

**************I also have been told that Brahman is Bliss

••yes..Param Brahman (=supreme spiritual existence) who is the whole but who is also "another" and who can relationate with us and exchange blissful relationships***********

Sir, will meditating on Param Atma give bliss or not?

***********A ring is merely a word to describe a shape of the source material Gold (in this example). Tomorrow the ring will be remade into a chain—again a concept only.

••this is the material world where the only real thing is the matter as a whole who give birth to shapes and very soon she destroys them. But spirit is another business... everything is real and simultaneous.. god as the WHOLE is real, god as a subject of love and relationships is real, the ring in the hands of god is real******************

Grand exposition. I am amazed at your knowledge. How do you know all such things?

***********************Now, please enlighten me whether we remain in the Lord (infinite consciousness) as real thing (infinite consciousness) or as a concept (limited consciousness)?

••real thing... our consciousness is so real that when we want to forget god, he has to use his potency (maya) to put us in the illusion.. otherwise we cannot forget because we are pure consciousness************************************

Oh, again the hen and egg story? If my consciousness as an individual is real (infinite) then why should I want to separate out from Lord?

****************In this thread it has been said that all living entities are energy of the Lord but not energetic. What does it mean?

••that the main difference between us and god is that we are emanated and he's the source of emanation.. not the opposite******************************

Yes if we are emanated then we are like heat to fire. Heat is not different from fire. Heat has no existence apart from fire. Then how can you say that we have real individuality? Are our individualities like that of fire (the real) or that of heat (a mere property or mere concept but not real in itself)?

**************This would mean that God’s individuality has Bin Laden’s as well as George Bushs’ individualities. Why does God bear such contradictory individualities?

••because we come in this world to forget the bliss of the spiritual world... so the alternative is war, suffering. And these roles are available of us to satisfy our desires to act independently by god in this material world

If He simply wills to have a uniformly sattwik individuality then possibly everything would be sweet and nice. Why this does not happen?

••if everything is sweet and nice it is spiritual world, so where will be our freedom to get out from it? freedom means to have all options**************************

This freedom concept is very nice. But as it really is, this freedom is Maya. Since exercising that option brings us to death. Since this freedom, which is actually bondage involves imagining that “I am Guest”. Why should one have Maya in Vaikuntha? You said the beings in Vaikuntha are free of Maya?

You said: “to satisfy our desires”. Can emanations have desire? Can heat have a desire not to heat? Heat will always heat since it nature of fire, the real thing. So, who desires? emanation or the true being?

**************So, if the small “me” is also “spiritual soul made of eternity, consciousness and bliss”, then why cannot it give rise to individual consciousness that are different from “me”?

••simply we are not source of divinity, our divinity is a gift of the supreme. If we were able to act as supreme, we never suffered the supremacy of maya**************************

But we are able to do it in dream.

*********************************What is that Maya? Will you please explain that?

••god is the source of everything, so he's the source of our forgetfulness of him. The energy who makes us forget is called maya.. (=what is not)*****************************

Good. So, while being in Vaikuntha we are not exercising our freedom to opt out but the Lord Himself is the source of our forgetfulness and impelling us to get out for some or other reason. So, I feel that Vaikuntha is not the place Brahma Sutras promises --- from where no one returns. Can we really say that Brahma Sutras are wrong? Can any believer of Veda and Vedanta dare to say that?

You are the light of this site. We all would be obliged by your explanation.

****************Is the prison there eternally?

••yes.. everything's god's emanation...prison too, so it's eternal. Nations and prisons are simultaneous.. there's no nations without prisons

What then is the cause of such eternal prison?

••our will to be rebels to the spiritual world

Then why a prison exists eternally like eternal hell?

••prisons exist eternally... but god, to grant us the freedom, gives the freedom to choose to come back to him through religions. So karma can only bound, karma is never a freedom instrument. It is god, that gives the various religions as a system to get out of the jail free.************************

You say everything's god's emanation...prison too. So, prison is like heat of fire.

This part will remain as clear as mud (forever) it seems. God through Maya makes us forget. He makes us feel that we are independent. Then He teaches us during our stay in this prison and takes us back. But in the meanwhile innocent people in Assam, in Russia are killed. Heinous crimes are committed. Why so? Why he did not teach us in Baikuntha itself? Why he had to resort to

But again, Brahma Sutras say knower of Brahman will not return. So, I am troubled by the doubt that whether beings in Vaikuntha are knower of Brahman or not?

Then I am troubled by another worry. Though you say that it is possible to become Maya free by His grace in Vaikuntha but still there is in individuality. That means, if I ever go to Vaikuntha I may still think that “I am Jigyasu”. Or will I become an eternal sage like Vashishta?

If I perchance become Vashishta, I will have no problem. I will be a eternal mind born sage of Brahma -- imparting knowledge eternally. Pranam to Vashishta. Thousand pranams to Him. But, if I become an ant or something. In that case, how will I be able to maintain my individuality? Will individuality of an ant and Jigyasu be same?

Being nothing myself, I will seek your guidance again and again.

Prison being eternally there how to escape it? Lord promises it but your description of Vaikuntha makes it clear that Vaikuntha is not that place.

********tell me please what do you think***************

I simply cannot think like you can do. On my behalf someone else thinks.

You are not clearing my one doubt. I will repeat it again.

I want to understand: If I’m not ungodly then where from the aspects of ungodliness arise; where the ungodliness resides? If everything is within God, then how at all the ungodliness arise. Does ungodliness is property of Lord like heat is of fire? Or is it that the ungodliness is the Leela (some people call it Maya)? Or may be what we imagine to be ungodly is not ungodly? Will you please throw some light?

Without clearing all these doubts we may not know the real nature of this Universe, the cause of its being, and finally of the way out of the prison.

Aum

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Aum

October 6, 2004

Mind is inert. How can an inert thing suffer?

••mind has life because soul is giving life to her.. material mind is the instrument we are given to have some (imperfect) consciusness in material life

Sir, isn’t it circular argument? Why go wrong way.

••freedom, we have no freedom so we do not fully understand

Despite Upanishad and Gita, you are still teaching me

••study vedic philosophy as a whole...especially gita.. read "sarva dharma ..." shloka

Now, sir can an individual who has limited consciousness that “I am this” can ever see “Lord everywhere and sees everything in Lord”?

••our consciousness is given by god... if he wants he can make us see everything

You know all

••?? i only study a little

Emanation is inherent nature of the Lord. How can emanations have individuality?

••because god give them it. He gives individuality to the beings lost in material world, why he cannot give it to liberated persons? where individuality comes from if not from vaikunta?

Like you said heat is not independent of fire then fire is the real thing?

••you are speaking of god... he's omnipotent, he can give everything to the "heat" without losing his nature

Sir, will meditating on Param Atma give bliss or not?

••yes, Param Atman is god, vishnu... if we meditate on god we go to god..

If my consciousness as an individual is real (infinite) then why should I want to separate out from Lord?Oh, again the hen and egg story?

••yes..

But as it really is, this freedom is Maya

••yes.. maya is an instrument to give us freedom

Since exercising that option brings us to death

••not really! we are spirit souls

You said: “to satisfy our desires”. Can emanations have desire? Can heat have a desire not to heat?

••yes..and god gives to that "heat" the illusion to belong to ice and not to fire

If we were able to act as supreme, we never suffered the supremacy of maya

-But we are able to do it in dream.

••what?

So, I feel that Vaikuntha is not the place Brahma Sutras promises

••vaikunta means "no problems"... call it as you want, paradise, spiritual world, or whatever.. the land of "no problems" is the supreme above

But in the meanwhile innocent people in Assam, in Russia are killed

••no one is killed.. the body's killed

That means, if I ever go to Vaikuntha I may still think that “I am Jigyasu”. Or will I become an eternal sage like Vashishta?

••you will come back to your eternal nature who's surely sage being CIT... or full of infinite consciousness

But, if I become an ant or something. In that case, how will I be able to maintain my individuality?

••in the spiritual world there's variety but everyone has the same infinite quantity of eternity, consciousness and bliss. An ant touched by the feet of sri vishnu is happy like a sage who discuss philosophy with him.. and maybe sometimes ant discuss philosophy and the sage enjoys the touch of vishnu's lotus feet

Prison being eternally there how to escape it? Lord promises it but your description of Vaikuntha makes it clear that Vaikuntha is not that place.

••nothing is beyond vaikunta... it is like to say that nothing is beyond god

I want to understand: If I’m not ungodly then where from the aspects of ungodliness arise; where the ungodliness resides?

••ungodliness is simply a perverted manifestation of godliness... this is the way to show our godliness in this imperfect world

Does ungodliness is property of Lord like heat is of fire?

••ofcourse

Without clearing all these doubts we may not know the real nature of this Universe, the cause of its being, and finally of the way out of the prison.

••let help us also with prayer and with the reciting of god's name (harekrsna mantra, vishnu sahastranama and so on..). Our mind will not save us, only god will save us seiing our desire to quit our disgraceful misuse of freedom

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns

••JAYA.... haribol!!!

October 7, 2004

Aum

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Aum

******************Mind is inert. How can an inert thing suffer?

••mind has life because soul is giving life to her.. material mind is the instrument we are given to have some (imperfect) consciousness in material life*************************

You said mind is inert. Now you say mind has life. Are you trying to confuse me deliberately? Both cannot be true. If it is inert then mind cannot suffer. Which is true?

If mind is an instrument then it will need an operator to operate it. And mere instruments cannot suffer.

So who suffers?

And what part in us undergoes sufferings? Please do not avoid this.

Please answer what is that which suffers? Mind, body, or something else?

***********************But, if I become an ant or something. In that case, how will I be able to maintain my individuality?

••in the spiritual world there's variety but everyone has the same infinite quantity of eternity, consciousness and bliss. An ant touched by the feet of sri vishnu is happy like a sage who discuss philosophy with him.. and maybe sometimes ant discuss philosophy and the sage enjoys the touch of vishnu's lotus feet*************************

You have utterly confused me here. I asked: If I become an ant then how will my individuality be maintained. But you reply: “everyone has the same infinite quantity of eternity, consciousness and bliss”.

You earlier said that we have smaller quantity of eternity, consciousness and bliss but now you say that “everyone has the same infinite quantity of eternity, consciousness and bliss”.

An ant and I are same in terms of same infinite quantity of eternity, consciousness and bliss. But then how our individualities are different? During transmigration how my individuality be maintained?

If you say that I and an ant (me in next birth) have same individuality since we have “same infinite quantity of eternity, consciousness and bliss”, then all beings have the same individuality?

I therefore repeat my question: if I become an ant or something in next birth, how will I be able to maintain my individuality? Surely my individuality will change?

******************Sir, isn’t it circular argument? Why go wrong way.

••freedom, we have no freedom so we do not fully understand************************

You earlier said that God gives us freedom but now you say we are not free. We are godly –sat-chit-anand (you said so). But still we are not free, why? Moreover, beings in Vaikuntha are surely free then why they get deluded?

*******************Now, sir can an individual who has limited consciousness that “I am this” can ever see “Lord everywhere and sees everything in Lord”?

••our consciousness is given by god... if he wants he can make us see everything************

So, we have no role in the job? Then why should one meditate or worship?

If I believe that I’m an individuality of such and such temperament and such and such size, then I’m different from all others. With such a belief how can I meditate on the sutratma that pervades everything? I will always see an individual first and then the Lord and then all others. I cannot see the One Sutratma.

Sir, I realize that the statement “sees Lord everywhere and sees everything in Lord”? means seeing One Lord only. Since, if you see the individuals then you will see the boundaries and you perceive the boundaries as different from the Lord. On the other hand, if you see the boundaries also as the Lord then you will not see millions of individuals.

***************************Sir, will meditating on Param Atma give bliss or not?

••yes, Param Atman is god, vishnu... if we meditate on god we go to god.*************.

So, you agree. Lord says that He abides within and without.

****************Emanation is inherent nature of the Lord. How can emanations have individuality?

••because god give them ------****************

*************************Like you said heat is not independent of fire then fire is the real thing?

••you are speaking of god... he's omnipotent, he can give everything to the "heat" without losing his nature************************

*****************You said: “to satisfy our desires”. Can emanations have desire? Can heat have a desire not to heat?

••yes..and god gives to that "heat" the illusion to belong to ice and not to fire*************

*************************Like you said heat is not independent of fire then fire is the real thing?

••you are speaking of god... he's omnipotent, he can give everything to the "heat" without losing his nature************************

What do you mean by saying God gives illusions? Do you mean that God veils the fact that we are full Sat-Chit-Anand?

Then you also say “he can give everything to the "heat" without losing his nature”. You also say that he gives illusion. These two statements do not seem to gel. What He seems to do is to use illusion to limit infinite “Sat-Chit-Anand” and not by real transformation? Am I correct?

Is illusion a truth or it is illusion only?

**********************So, I feel that Vaikuntha is not the place Brahma Sutras promises

••vaikunta means "no problems"... call it as you want, paradise, spiritual world, or whatever.. the land of "no problems" is the supreme above***************************

**************************If my consciousness as an individual is real (infinite) then why should I want to separate out from Lord? Oh, again the hen and egg story?

••yes..*********************************

***********************Prison being eternally there how to escape it? Lord promises it but your description of Vaikuntha makes it clear that Vaikuntha is not that place.

••nothing is beyond vaikunta... it is like to say that nothing is beyond god****************

Whatever you say seems to muddy the issue. Individuals who in Vaikuntha forget that “vaikunta means no problems” and come out, are surely under Maya?

Moreover, Vaikuntha is not the place guaranteed by Brahma Sutras. One who realizes Brahman never comes back.

Sir, with due reverence I state that Maya operates in Vaikuntha as well. This is my realization from this discussion.

************************Does ungodliness is property of Lord like heat is of fire?

••of course*********************************

Good. So, a rapist is not responsible for his ungodliness? Is it true Sir?

Aum

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Aum

October 7, 2004

And what part in us undergoes sufferings?

••we are illuded.. we feel suffering but there's really no suffering and we, as soul, are not affected

During transmigration how my individuality be maintained?

••you are a spiritual soul and you simply change dresses... you are not really affected

If you say that I and an ant (me in next birth) have same individuality

••it is simply you with different bodies,dresses,masks..

all beings have the same individuality?

••different individuals with the same powers

if I become an ant or something in next birth, how will I be able to maintain my individuality? Surely my individuality will change?

••no.. you remain the same.. simply you changed a dress

You earlier said that God gives us freedom but now you say we are not free

••now in this world we are not free so we do not understand when we make a free decision in vaikunta

Then why should one meditate or worship?

••to express desire to be enlightened.. this is a great chance and great effort is required

With such a belief how can I meditate on the sutratma that pervades everything?

••meditate on it,and meditate also on god who is one with you but also different and he is ready to start a loving, friendly relationship with you

Since, if you see the individuals then you will see the boundaries and you perceive the boundaries as different from the Lord

••so where's the problem? love has no fear of individualism, love enjoys differences. Meditate on God and you will discover how He's One and various simultaneously

Do you mean that God veils the fact that we are full Sat-Chit-Anand?

••yes.. our being divine is not under our control, we are subordinated not supreme, so when we want to fall,god, through maya energy, veiles our original nature... otherwise we could not make the experience of forgetting god

Moreover, Vaikuntha is not the place guaranteed by Brahma Sutras. One who realizes Brahman never comes back.

••i have said it... the supreme aspect of brahman is when we can find variety, the brahman without variety is called brahmajoti, the brahman with variety (=features, relationships, qualities and so on) is called vaikunta... i am sorry, but the difficulty is to understand why, knowing perfectly the consequences, we decide to fall.

But the only explanation for our relationship with god is love.. and for love freedom is necessary..

ntil we are here we do not understand fully... but it is easy to understand that the supreme abode cannot miss of what is abundant in material world (individuality, variety..)and that we cannot stay eternally merged with absolute because we are intrinsecally active and eager to relationate

if we are not individuals,it is not possible to be CIT and ANANDA

---

Good. So, a rapist is not responsible for his ungodliness?

••he's simply bounded by the laws of karma... (the creatures cannot create anything, only god can create... )

jaya!

(chant the lord's name...)

October 8, 2004

Aum

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Aum

*****************And what part in us undergoes sufferings?

••we are illuded.. we feel suffering but there's really no suffering and we, as soul, are not affected**************************

Sir, this rejoinder of you is one the best. You are lucid and reveal signs of divinity.

But, my questions don’t end. What you mean by we are eluded. Body is eluded? Or the mind is eluded? Or the Chit is eluded? None of them can be eluded. Body and Mind are inert. They cannot be eluded. Chit cannot be eluded.

So, what is eluded? Moreover, what feels the sufferings?

**********************During transmigration how my individuality be maintained?

••you are a spiritual soul and you simply change dresses... you are not really affected

If you say that I and an ant (me in next birth) have same individuality

••it is simply you with different bodies,dresses,masks..

all beings have the same individuality?

••different individuals with the same powers

if I become an ant or something in next birth, how will I be able to maintain my individuality? Surely my individuality will change?

••no.. you remain the same.. simply you changed a dress*****************************

You say that individuality remains constant whether one changes dress or not. Please enlighten me, where the individuality resides? And what is individuality?

When an ant (me in next birth) will say: I am an ant. That is individuality?

Since Lord is all: He is within. He is the body (the apparent boundary between individuals). He is the air, space, fire and everything. Then where is the individuality?

*********************You earlier said that God gives us freedom but now you say we are not free

••now in this world we are not free so we do not understand when we make a free decision in vaikunta************************************

****************************Then why should one meditate or worship?

••to express desire to be enlightened.. this is a great chance and great effort is required********************

Again I question. Who desires? Mind and body cannot desire. If it is the individuality that desires then where that individuality is?

************************With such a belief how can I meditate on the sutratma that pervades everything?

••meditate on it,and meditate also on god who is one with you but also different and he is ready to start a loving, friendly relationship with you****************************

When one meditates on God as one then the Lord is all: He is within. He is the body (the apparent boundary between individuals). He is the air, space, fire and everything. Nothing else will remain. Then how can the second option remain valid?

**********************Since, if you see the individuals then you will see the boundaries and you perceive the boundaries as different from the Lord

••so where's the problem? love has no fear of individualism, love enjoys differences. Meditate on God and you will discover how He's One and various simultaneously******************

This is excellent. I suppose this answers my above question. But isn’t it also true that yogis who meditate on One Lord as the Self they are doing well or perhaps the better.

**************************Do you mean that God veils the fact that we are full Sat-Chit-Anand?

••yes.. our being divine is not under our control, we are subordinated not supreme, so when we want to fall,god, through maya energy, veiles our original nature... otherwise we could not make the experience of forgetting god**************************************

This is an answer but the hot burning question remains: Why one in Vaikuntha would desire freedom. It means Maya is active in Vaikuntha.

**************************Moreover, Vaikuntha is not the place guaranteed by Brahma Sutras. One who realizes Brahman never comes back.

••i have said it... the supreme aspect of brahman is when we can find variety, the brahman without variety is called brahmajoti, the brahman with variety (=features, relationships, qualities and so on) is called vaikunta... i am sorry, but the difficulty is to understand why, knowing perfectly the consequences, we decide to fall.

But the only explanation for our relationship with god is love.. and for love freedom is necessary..****************************************

Very good sir. Surely the divine has touched you or else why should we discuss such auspicious questions? Not all discuss these things.

You say: “the difficulty is to understand why, knowing perfectly the consequences, we decide to fall”.

But Brahma Sutra gives the answer As BELOW:

There are two paths. By one path a devotee who desires to enjoy the delights of Heaven go to the highest heaven through the usual path of pitra loka, brahma loka etc. But in Heaven he does not accumulate Karma. So, when the fruits of his past good deeds are consumed through enjoyments he comes down again. He enters some food material and is something and becomes semen and eventually takes birth as Lion or Man or mosquito.

Another devotee who sees the Lord alone as the Self does not go to any place. He attains liberation on earth itself and does not come back. He becomes Bliss.

Brahma Sutra does not talk about superiority. Since, the paths are also one God. What path one follows depends on desire and maturity. Final Liberation is for most mature ones and Lord dispenses the results. Our desires are not our desires but are grace of Lord as per our station and past Karma.

That is why it is said that “Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious”. One in many millions will have the desire to enquire. Lord decides who should enquire.

Gita also states the same:

Chapter 13

Purushah prakritistho hi bhungkte prakritijaan gunaan;

Kaaranam gunasango’sya sadasadyoni janmasu.

22. The soul seated in Nature experiences the qualities born of Nature; attachment to the qualities is the cause of his birth in good and evil wombs.

“Attachment to qualities born of nature is the cause of re births.”

Please reevaluate. In Vaikuntha attachments to attractions of Prakriti still operate or else why should one come back.

**************if we are not individuals,it is not possible to be CIT and ANANDA**********

Why so? Please reevaluate. The Self is Lord and He is Bliss. So, oneness should be the highest bliss. This is borne by what you have already taught me. Being amongst variety in Vaikuntha, one still falls. So, something may be lacking still? May be you have seeds of Kama or jealousy?

Please be open minded. And pardon my insolence. I am merely enquiring since scriptures say that such enquiry is Shiva.

Gita states: One who finds happiness with the Self, who rejoices the Self within, and who is illuminated by the Self-knowledge; such a yogi attains Brahman and attains supreme nirvana. (5.24).

Lord also states in Gita: such a yogi, who engages in the worshipful service of the Supersoul, knowing that I and the Maheswara are one, remains always in Me in all circumstances”.

So, Lord himself says what Supreme Nirvana is.

Again in Chapter 13

Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

23. Maheswaram -- The Supreme Soul in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, the great Lord and the Supreme Self.

Ya evam vetti purusham prakritim cha gunaih saha;

Sarvathaa vartamaano’pi na sa bhooyo’bhijaayate.

24. He who thus knows Spirit and Matter, together with the qualities, in whatever condition he may be, he is not reborn.

Dhyaanenaatmani pashyanti kechidaatmaanamaatmanaa;

Anye saankhyena yogena karmayogena chaapare.

25. Some by meditation behold the Self in the Self by the Self, others by the Yoga of knowledge, and others by the Yoga of action.

Anye twevamajaanantah shrutwaanyebhya upaasate;

Te’pi chaatitarantyeva mrityum shrutiparaayanaah.

26. Others also, not knowing thus, worship, having heard of it from others; they, too, cross beyond death, regarding what they have heard as the supreme refuge.

End of Citation

So, some worship but having heard from others they to cross beyond death.

**********************Good. So, a rapist is not responsible for his ungodliness?

••he's simply bounded by the laws of karma... (the creatures cannot create anything, only god can create... )************************************

Please permit me to reserve questions on this aspect for a later time.

Sir, you have possibly forgotten to answer the query:

Then you also say “he can give everything to the "heat" without losing his nature”. You also say that he gives illusion. These two statements do not seem to gel. What He seems to do is to use illusion to limit infinite “Sat-Chit-Anand” and not by real transformation? Am I correct?

Is illusion a truth or it is illusion only?

Please do give a reply.

Aum

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Aum

October 8, 2004

Or the Chit is eluded?

••yes... by the power of god who is the source of our CIT

where the individuality resides?

••soul

And what is individuality?

••the possibility to have relationships

Since Lord is all: He is within. He is the body (the apparent boundary between individuals). He is the air, space, fire and everything. Then where is the individuality?

••lord is omnipotent... he's the whole, he's an individual, he emanates individuals

Nothing else will remain. Then how can the second option remain valid?

••if you feel difference from the whole in the conditionated stage, there will be variety also in the absolute

But isn’t it also true that yogis who meditate on One Lord as the Self they are doing well or perhaps the better.

••not in my opinion... i sincerely think that very rare are the ones who merge in the absolute, and that rare ones , after some time fall down because soul is dynamic and wants to be cit and ananda

Why one in Vaikuntha would desire freedom. It means Maya is active in Vaikuntha.

••it is very simplicistic..... all teachers say that this problem will have real solution only when we will be realized, but even now it is not sodifficult to think that the freedom in vaikunta could be of different nature in comparison with our kind of limited freedom.. We have no freedom, and we do not understand that freedom... so we say that they are mad (=maya)

By one path a devotee who desires to enjoy the delights of Heaven go to the highest heaven through the usual path of pitra loka, brahma loka etc. But in Heaven he does not accumulate Karma

••who is speaking of heaven?.... i am not speaking of heaven.. this is karma yoga, not devotion

“Attachment to qualities born of nature is the cause of re births.”

••to material qualities.... not to the transcendental qualities of the lord. Krsna, at the end of gita, says "surrender to me... i will makeyou free.."

So, oneness should be the highest bliss.

••bliss comes from relationships and consciousness comes from variety... nirvana is no-suffering, not bliss.. very different

What He seems to do is to use illusion to limit infinite “Sat-Chit-Anand” and not by real transformation? Am I correct?

••simply our being satcitananda is derivative from god's satcitananda state. If we ask to forget, he limits our cit and he gives the forgetfulness... there's also a shloka in the gita

HARI

B O L

October 10, 2004

Dear friend, my teacher and my student as well.

Aum

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Aum

**************Or the Chit is eluded?

••yes... by the power of god who is the source of our CIT

Since Lord is all------ Then where is the individuality?

••lord is omnipotent... he's the whole, he's an individual, he emanates individuals *************

First you said” Mind” suffers. Then you said no one suffers but we are eluded that we feel to suffer. I asked who feels and who is so deluded? You now say that Chit is deluded.

You also say the Lord emanates individuals.

Chit is existence. It is Lord. When Lord conditions the Chit, the conditioned Chit also resides in the unlimited Chit. When He emanates, the emanations also reside in Him.

Some people call the conditioned Chit as Jiva. You call it individuality. People who call it Jiva know and teach that the conditioning is a notion of the Lord only. And the conditioning can be removed by Lord’s grace and self’s effort to meditate on one single consciousness.

Gita and other scriptures clarify that yogis who meditate by the effort of Self on the Lord as the Self, they attain the Self and never return. This is Lord’s will only.

Some other people take individuality as real and love the Lord as the Supreme. They attain Baikuntha but they may return. This again is Lord’s will only. He wants to see Himself in all glories.

******************************where the individuality resides?

••soul**********************************

************************And what is individuality?

••the possibility to have relationships******************************

So, individuality is a possibility – a notion and not a real thing.

And then when the Lord is One ----- relationship with whom. The Mahat within me is Lord. The intellect within me is Lord. My energy is Lord’s shakti. So is true for so-called all others. When the reality within all apparently distinct individualities is One Lord then one can only have relationship with the Self – which is one.

Even that is not possible, since all efforts are by the Self alone.

Gita Chapter 13

Dhyaanenaatmani pashyanti kechidaatmaanamaatmanaa;

Anye saankhyena yogena karmayogena chaapare.

25. Some by meditation behold the Self in the Self by the Self, others by the Yoga of knowledge, and others by the Yoga of action.

“behold the Self in the Self by the Self”

That is why Upanishad says:

------Now if a man worships another deity, thinking the deity is one and he another, he does not know. He is like a beast for the Devas.--------

******************Nothing else will remain. Then how can the second option remain valid?

••if you feel difference from the whole in the conditionated stage, there will be variety also in the absolute****************************

Conditioned state is a state of Avidya where the truth is not seen as it really is. How can you base your concept of truth on Avidya.

You yourself say: We are not free now, so we do not understand why we fall from Vaikuntha. And then you say that apparent observations of this bonded state must be valid there also?

*************************But isn’t it also true that yogis who meditate on One Lord as the Self they are doing well or perhaps the better.

••not in my opinion... i sincerely think that very rare are the ones who merge in the absolute, and that rare ones , after some time fall down because soul is dynamic and wants to be cit and ananda*****************************

Yes and No. It is true that it is very rare to find one who merge in the absolute. But it is false that such rare ones fall back. All scriptures and Lord Himself guarantees “no return”.

********************By one path a devotee who desires to enjoy the delights of Heaven go to the highest heaven through the usual path of pitra loka, brahma loka etc. But in Heaven he does not accumulate Karma

••who is speaking of heaven?.... i am not speaking of heaven.. this is karma yoga, not devotion*****************************************

But Vaikuntha is highest heaven as taught by most.

And when I say Karma, I (and all scriptures) mean fruits of good (including service, surrender, and devotion and jnana) and bad deeds (including non devotion).

*************************Attachment to qualities born of nature is the cause of re births.”

••to material qualities.... not to the transcendental qualities of the lord. Krsna, at the end of gita, says "surrender to me... i will makeyou free.."****************************

Yes. Attachments to transcendental qualities of Lord do not bind. Such attachments liberate. But then again one in a million will distinguish ‘qualities born of nature’ from the ‘transcendental ones’.

*****************************So, oneness should be the highest bliss.

••bliss comes from relationships and consciousness comes from variety... nirvana is no-suffering, not bliss.. very different****************************

No sir. I am sorry to place different view. But I must do so as impelled by the Lord.

As Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi said: ‘Getting rid of non-existent misery and attaining bliss, which is the only Chit; that is the definition of Liberation’.

****************************What He seems to do is to use illusion to limit infinite “Sat-Chit-Anand” and not by real transformation? Am I correct?

••----------. If we ask to forget, he limits our cit and he gives the forgetfulness... there's also a shloka in the gita*************************

Well again I must differ. There is one Chit and I cannot agree that: “If we ask to forget “. It is the Chit who conditions Chit through notion “I am Brahman”.

Sir, I know that you will agree to nothing of what I have written. Though I agree to whatever you have written as truth of one Lord, since all concepts reside in one consciousness only.

I will interact with you 6 months later.

I am Atanu. I became guest. I became Guest_ and I became Jigyasu. Only I knew that I was Atanu. All others knew that Jigyasu was an individual and guest was another individual.

Similarly, we make diversity the sole reality and forget to see the one truth veiled beneath the diversity. We fail to see that the diversity is One Lord, who is the Self of all.Then the kindly Lord gives clues.

Aum

Enquiry into Brahman is desirable. Enquiry into Brahman is auspicious.

One who realizes the knowledge of Brahman never returns.

Aum

Ganeshprasad · October 10, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Atanu your presence is greatly appreciated; your style of debate is breath of fresh air.

Why go away for six months, having just return.

I am not satisfied by the guestji answer on, as to who is suffering perhaps you can shed some light, if I the soul who is sat chit and anand then why suffering at all, if it is avidhya who is responsible for that and why?

Your statement ''Lord is my self'' please explain

Jai Shree Krishna

October 11, 2004

Chit is existence. It is Lord. When Lord conditions the Chit, the conditioned Chit also resides in the unlimited Chit.

••yes.. god is his emanation and simultaneously he's independent...

Some people call the conditioned Chit as Jiva. You call it individuality.

••jiva is conditioned individuality, lord is supreme individuality

And the conditioning can be removed by Lord’s grace and self’s effort to meditate on one single consciousness.

••to see that we are one with god, and simultaneously different to god is to see the complete picture. This kind of difference "enables" us to live in eternal bliss in a relatioship of love with god. Much better than oneness

So, individuality is a possibility – a notion and not a real thing.

••you have asked what's individuality, not if we can choose to be individuals or not. Individuality is real because reality cannot be with less features than illusion. So if we have an imperfect individuality, necessarily there's a perfect one in the absolute world

And then when the Lord is One ----- relationship with whom. The Mahat within me is Lord. The intellect within me is Lord. My energy is Lord’s shakti

••you have spoken of separation.. many subjects me, the lord, the mahat, the intellect, the shakti. So even you are not speaking of ONE, but of variety

then one can only have relationship with the Self – which is one.

••relationship requires two subject. If the oneness is the ultimate (and only) reality, there's no plurality of subjects, no actions, no desires, no relationships... but maya cannot be better than brahman

How can you base your concept of truth on Avidya.

••the origin of material world's variety is vaikunta, not the opposite..

And then you say that apparent observations of this bonded state must be valid there also?

••the fact that we are bonded is itself the demonstration that there's difference from our individuality and supreme's one

All scriptures and Lord Himself guarantees “no return”.

••read all scriptures as a whole, and use the logic... only a relative minority of vedic practitioneers has your beliefs

But Vaikuntha is highest heaven as taught by most.

••reading is sufficient.. read bhagavat purana for example

Sir, I know that you will agree to nothing of what I have written.

••it is not a problem, even discussing with people with opposite ideas is very useful because it teachs to us to organizate our thoughts to give the best answers

Similarly, we make diversity the sole reality and forget to see the one truth veiled beneath the diversity

••that's another mistake... we are one because there's nothing outside god, but we are separated otherwise we were not illuded. Truth is autoeffulgent, auto revelating, truth does not stay together with ignorance. So if you were the supreme, there was not space to be illuded by maya

First you said” Mind” suffers. Then you said no one suffers but we are eluded that we feel to suffer. I asked who feels and who is so deluded? You now say that Chit is deluded.

••our freedom, consciousness and bliss is given by god.. and forgetfulness is also given by god. Mind and body in this world are our "organs" that soul uses to act. So we aren't ontologically affected by the miseries of material nature, but we, identified in the mind and body undoubtely we suffer.

So our mind, as an energy of the soul suffers, but soul is not really affected because it is only an illusion given by god

i do not know where's the difficulty

October 17, 2004

I repeat a sloka from Sri Brahma Samhita (which our freind referred to). Friend, arguments take one away from God. But contemplation of sacred scriptures brings God nearer to us. So, contemplate.

Book 1 TEXT 8

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

WORD FOR WORD

The goddess, the regulator; the spiritual potency of Him; beloved of Him; under the control of lingam—bhagavan sambhuh-- jyotih-rupah-- eternal; that yonih is potency (saktih ), the desire; the seed; and mahat--the faculty of cognition of the Supreme Lord Hareh.

Devi is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hari – the Lord of the Universe. And Sakti – the regulator (Niyati) is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of supreme Lord Hareh.

Now, friend ask yourself: Which person will entrust one’s potency -- the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition (Devi in short) to another man called Saktiman?

Just for this Vichara assume and say to yourself: “Devi is my power of cognition, my desire, and my seed. I entrust Her control to Saktiman. I am the Lord of the Universe”.

This called Self Realization or total surrender. Whatever you prefer.

AS for the question: Who suffers?

AS Ramana Maharshi says "There is no real entity that suffers.

Mind is Bhandasur (the shameless demon or the ego that even sometimes separate Lord and Durga. Durga has to kill Bhanda Asur). Mind is a bundle of thought which has as the base the notion "I am this".

This notion of "I am this" expands and becomes the Universe and others and then the mind (unreal entitity) begins to suffer.

In this connection. The aspirations and desires with respect to this small "I am this" is the cause of all suffering.

So, friend, I probably need a six months break to truly realize that the desires are not of "I am this" but all these belong to That.

October 17, 2004

***********••you have spoken of separation.. many subjects me, the lord, the mahat, the intellect, the shakti. So even you are not speaking of ONE, but of variety

***********************

Yes, Boss. That is why the "ONE THAT" is beyond words.

October 18, 2004

so why have you bothered speaking?

shut up and find oneness in silence

Seeking knowledge from guest ji of Advaita Philosophy thread

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