First Experience for Islam

[maadhav]

See article below.

 

This is the first time in history where islam has experienced attack on mosque, and for a good reason, from teh view point of suras.

 

islam had no good reason to destroy the hindu temples, and still they did it for 1000 years in bhart.

 

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USA Today

October 13, 2004

Pg. 1

 

Iraqi, U.S. Forces Target Insurgents In 7 Mosque Raids

 

Operations increase in Sunni stronghold

 

By Jim Michaels, USA Today

 

CAMP BLUE DIAMOND, Iraq — Iraqi security forces backed by U.S. troops on Tuesday raided seven mosques in the insurgent stronghold of Ramadi, west of Baghdad. U.S. officials said the mosques were being used to harbor militants and store weapons.

 

The raids were part of stepped-up operations across a wide swath of the “Sunni Triangle”, an area of rebellious Sunni Muslims north and west of the capital. It was the second straight day that Iraqi and U.S. forces targeted insurgents in mosques.

 

“These raids sent a clear message to insurgents that they can no longer use mosques as safe havens,” Brig. Gen. Joseph Dunford, assistant commander of the 1st Marine Division, said in a statement.

 

On Tuesday, U.S. forces launched airstrikes on a mosque in Hit, also west of Baghdad, after insurgents fired at Marines from the building. In Ramadi, Iraqi forces entered mosques to search for and clear out weapons.

 

“They know we're sensitive” about attacking holy sites, said 1st Lt. Nathan Braden, a spokesman for the 1st Marine Division. “They play on that and take advantage of it.”

 

In each case, U.S. forces remained outside while Iraqi troops searched the mosques. The raids, however, didn't yield any large weapons caches. Four suspected insurgents were arrested, and bombmaking and “propaganda” material were confiscated.

 

Sheik Abdul-Aleim Saadi, the provincial leader of the influential Association of Muslim Scholars, was detained at Mohammed Aref Mosque, his relatives and followers told the Associated Press. U.S. officials here said they had no information on the report.

 

Angry residents accused Americans of breaking down doors and violating the sanctity of city mosques. “This cowboy behavior cannot be accepted,” cleric Abdullah Abu Omar of the Ramadi Mosque told the AP. “The Americans seem to have lost their senses and have gone out of control.”

=======

 

Hindus in bharat need to come to senses.

 

[barney]

I think it is pay back time. But if you ask me their Mosques are not sanctified whereas all Hindu temples are holy because of daily rituals conducted for hundreds of years. The idol although is carved of stone but have been sanctified by qualied priests and becames the abode of God and God's presence can be felt. Whereas a mosque is just an empty building and only used for political discussion by muslim clerics. You cannot call it a house of God as there is nothing but an empty hall and gathering of ignorant people every Friday.

[maadhav]

yes barney.

 

islam is advaiti, impersonal, no face or form of allah.

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Not that I am an expert, But you can get any Holy Book and intrepretate in your own way. I have been reading it only for couple of days now out of interest. It is very almost like a book just praising Allah. Regardless of what people may do in name of Islam. Qu'ran is as far as I know unchanged, you'd do well to take a look at it. I'll put one verse for you:

 

 

042.015 Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.

 

 

Like I said you know in Gita it says that out of millions of people only one Knows God. But in Qu'ran 'idol' worship is condenmed. If you talk to a Muslim who is willing to listen and see the strict standard used in Temples. They may well see that it is bona-fide. Remember it talks about idol worship deity worship is different.

 

Anyway thats my 2 cents like they say in USA Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

Hey guys,dont equate Islam with Advaitha.Advaitis set up great empires to save India from moguls.Have you forgotten Vijayanagar empire set by sankaracharya Vidyaranya swami?Have you forgotten Kumara Kambana who being an advaithi liberated Sri Rangam from sultan rule and reinstated Ranganatha Idol there?

 

Dont compare Islam with advaitha please.

[Guest guest]

islam as philosophy is really advaita-like.. i agree with madhav

[Guest guest]

I think islam is similiar to vaishnavites for many reasons.

 

1)Both vaishnavites and islam are intent on converting others

 

2)Both are denying the existence of all other gods and saying "My god is the true and only god.all others are inferior"

 

3)Both will not even step into temples of other 'gods'.They will not even turn their head in direction of 'demi gods' temples.

 

4)Both believe that reaching another world is the salvation.Vaikunda for vaishnavites and paradise for muslims

 

5)Both stress bakthi as the way to reach god.

 

[Guest guest]

similarities continue

 

1)Both islam and vaishnavites have a personal god

 

2)Both Islam and vaishnavites are formed by gurus.Mohammed as guru for muslims and you guys have Ramanuja,chaitanya mahaprabu and madhvacharya as gurus.

 

3)Both have a book as divine.Till death you guys wont leave that book.Muslims have quran and you guys hold on to Geetha.But advaitis will hold vedas and god as irrelevent in the advaita stage.

 

 

[barney]

Come to think of it, you hit the nail on the right spot. Looks like there is a comon ground for both of them and soon they can join hands and praise Allah as Krishna and Krishna as Allah. Anway it's better for them to switch holy books. I'm sure the vaishnavites would accept the koran but would the Muslims take Gita in exange? Boy! I would like to see the daylight of it. Are the vaishnavites trying to please the Muslims? No wonder the north was defeated by the Moguls very easily. Now all comes to light and we know how the north was conqured very easily the Muslim barbarians. VAISHNAVITES were the cause for the fall of Hindu Kingdoms in India.

[Guest guest]

I think islam is similiar to vaishnavites for many reasons.

--muslims are very similar with you.. they have two legs, two arms, a mouth... so let us see these similarities

 

1)Both vaishnavites and islam are intent on converting others

--converting is not a bad thing if it is done without violence... if you come in contact with some one and you get converted, it is what you exactly want and need

 

2)Both are denying the existence of all other gods and saying "My god is the true and only god.all others are inferior"

--god is one even with many names.. who is not god is inferior to god.. where's the problems?

 

3)Both will not even step into temples of other 'gods'.They will not even turn their head in direction of 'demi gods' temples.

--in the main vaishnavas sacred places there's shiva temples that are considered the protector of the "ksetra", the sacred place itself... gopis worship sri durga to have krsna as husband,,,,,,, and so on. (you have simply to study a little more)

 

4)Both believe that reaching another world is the salvation.Vaikunda for vaishnavites and paradise for muslims

--a saint is saint even in this world, if he's not already transcendental, the death will not give him any bonus. So Vaikunta is here if you have a "vaikunta" consciousness. Advaita states that real salvation cannot be reached until we are individuals.. so we have to die before and go in "nirvana"

 

5)Both stress bakthi as the way to reach god.

--very wrong... muslims stress for aisvarya, reverence, fear of punishment. Allah is invisible,secret, almost fearful. Bhakti is love, krsna is a baby, he do not want to be considered god by his associates. The two approaches are opposite.... even if both are real. God shows different personalities according to the needs of his followers

 

1)Both islam and vaishnavites have a personal god

--so that's nice.. you're a person, god is a person .. why not? but islam is more on the impersonal side.. god has noface, god has not to be defined... and.. they consider sayng that god is a person a great sin because they consider the personality a human concept.... god is simply not to be defined, not to be talked of... very impersonalist

 

2)Both Islam and vaishnavites are formed by gurus.Mohammed as guru for muslims and you guys have Ramanuja,chaitanya mahaprabu and madhvacharya as gurus.

--religions are given by god... parampara' starts from god and continues with the masters who bring transparently the same god's message.There's no other way to reach transcendence. For their misfortune i do not think that muslims have a disciplic succession, otherwise it would be very easy to see their religion more effective and peaceful.

The "thing" that you follow is not given by god through an authentic guru? how can you have any success in your practice?

 

3)Both have a book as divine.Till death you guys wont leave that book.Muslims have quran and you guys hold on to Geetha

---gita is word of god so it's divine... if you want to reach god you have to know god's words... where's the problem?

 

But advaitis will hold vedas and god as irrelevent in the advaita stage.

--so they are very unfortunate and illogic. Advaita is an illusion, if you were god, you were not forgetful of it and prey of maya.The fact that you deny vedas at a certain stage is stupid because vedas, being transcendental, have an endless appeal and effectiveness for any spiritualist at any level.... even at liberated stage

 

5)many muslims in the bengal of the end of 1500 have become vaishnavas... one "muslim by birth", Srila haridasa Takura is one of the greatest vaishnava saints and philosopher of bharata varsa of all times... he's called all over the world "the acharya of the holy name of the lord"

 

you have to be proud of having this "ex muslim" or "muslim by birth" in your "hindu" culture.....

 

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(are you satisfied?)

 

[Guest guest]

what's your religious position if you do not raise hands and praise god?

 

who do you praise? saibaba? sai baba is more "god" than allah?

 

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[maadhav]

<< Remember it talks about idol worship deity worship is different. >>

 

what matters is that our moorti pooja is viewed by them, even now, as idol worship. that has coused them to kill millions of hindus and converting many by force.

 

This who have sufered from islam have made many web sites that quote koran and hadith. I have read them.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I did not want to compare Islam with Vaishnavism.I know the difference between a cult and a devotion to krishna.The former uses jihad while the later uses love and ahimsa.I was deeply pertrubed when I compared Ramanujacharya with Islam's founder.Vaishnavites have all rights not to worship shiva or Ganesh.I dont mind it at all.

 

But I did that comparision only since some of the members compared Islam with Advaitha.I did not like it at all.I dont want advaita to have any similarities with Islam.I dint want advaita to be compared to a meat eating religion.I did that comparision only for stoping you people from comparing a vedic religion with that meat eating religion.

 

I dont want to pursue this debate further.I am ready for any debate on vedic grounds.But dont insult advaita by comparing it with jihadi religions.I feel it to be pretty offensive.

[Guest guest]

converting is not a bad thing if it is done without violence... if you come in contact with some one and you get converted, it is what you exactly want and need

 

In advaita there isnt any conversion."Whomever you worship you only worship me" said krishna.So we see all religions worshiping only Krishna and thus there isnt any conversion at all.

 

god is one even with many names.. who is not god is inferior to god

All is god.Nothing is inferior to anything.

 

gopis worship sri durga to have krsna as husband,,,,,,, and so on. (you have simply to study a little more)

 

I am yet to see a ISKCON temple having durga idol or ganesh idol.I am yet to see a HK worshiping durga.YOu have to study a little.Do you mean gopi's worshipped "demigod" durga.wow,news to me.

 

Advaita states that real salvation cannot be reached until we are individuals.. so we have to die before and go in "nirvana"

An advaithi never is born or is dead."Aham bhrammam asmi"(I am eternal)

 

so that's nice.. you're a person, god is a person .. why not?

I am not a person.God too is not a person.

 

The "thing" that you follow is not given by god through an authentic guru? how can you have any success in your practice.

 

The "thing" we follow wasnt given to us by a guru.God himself came down as Krishna and adhi shankara and gave the "thing" to us.To reach advaithic stage you dont need a guru.You dont even need to know anything about vedas.You dont even need to be a hindu.Baruch spinoza never heard about vedas or hinduism.But he became an advaithi by pure devotion and founded western advaithic religion of pantheism.Sufi islamic saints never had any gurus.They too reached advaithic stage through islam.Lao Tsu preached advaitha in china.Kabbalah Jews still worship nirguna bhramman as ein sof.we dont need gurus.God himself will come to us.

 

gita is word of god so it's divine... if you want to reach god you have to know god's words... where's the problem

 

Advaithis dont want to reach god.God himself will come in search of us.He will chase us and take us as his kids.You guys run in search of him.He will run in chase of us.

 

The fact that you deny vedas at a certain stage is stupid because.......

"Leave every vedic dharma and surrender to me" said krishna.Is he stupid then?

 

vedas, being transcendental, have an endless appeal and effectiveness for any spiritualist at any level.... even at liberated stage

Vedas arent relevent at advaitha stage.Its like a textbook.Once you graduate you throw it away.

 

you have to be proud of having this "ex muslim" or "muslim by birth" in your "hindu" culture.....

 

You should feel proud that swami vidyaranya sankaracharya swami set up advaithic vijaynagar empire.YOu should feel proud that smartha ramdoss set up shivaji's empire and saved you guys' ancestors from forceful conversions.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Do you mean gopi's worshipped "demigod" durga.wow,news to me.

 

 

To get Krishna

[Guest guest]

But I did that comparision only since some of the members compared Islam with Advaitha.I did not like it at all

 

you had no will to blasphemy vaishnavas but you have done it.. that's all

 

advaitism, even if not with that name, is followed all over the world. The only detailed description of god's personality and activities is in vedic literature

 

if you do not see them, the only thing that remains is that the supreme reality is an energy

 

so, with various names, advaitism

 

christianism also is advaitism... if god for christians have been a real person and not a simple undefinite energy, why the need to create a man/god.. a mortal/god to come interacting with us and save us by dieing in the cross?

 

krsna is not an energy, he's an individual, if he wants to do something in the earth he comes and he do it freely.... but nirguna brahman by himself can't do it.. so you have a create a "human/mortal" god

 

so advaitism is all over the world

 

(christianism, buddhism, islam, american indians, sufi, zoroastrism and so on...)

[Guest guest]

In advaita there isnt any conversion."Whomever you worship you only worship me" said krishna.So we see all religions worshiping only Krishna and thus there isnt any conversion at all.

--also maya is krsna... but even advaitism wants to escape by maya. So, to have a valid spiritual progress you have to discriminate. So now you are propagandizing the advaita vada as a valuable way to get liberation. If someone changes idea and accepts your interpretation you have converted him

 

All is god.Nothing is inferior to anything.

--in a sense yes... in another sense i am not god, if i were god i would remember it. God does not forget to be god

 

I am yet to see a ISKCON temple having durga idol or ganesh idol.I am yet to see a HK worshiping durga

--ganesh is surely worshipped while we read bhagavad gita, durga is an expansion of radharani... i can add to this that in every holy vaishnava tirtha there's many shiva temples to protect the dham. So, if you find an hare krsna who despise devatas, he's not a good hare krsna and you have the right to say it to him. If he worship krsna peacefully believing that he is worshiping also the krsna's entourage (the devatas) he's right. If you see someone who worships krsna and you believe that inside krsna there's not also devatas, all the universes, all the world, the impersonal manifestation, me and you... you need to study a little more

 

Do you mean gopi's worshipped "demigod" durga.wow,news to me.

--it is not an esoteric lecture... buy tenth canto of bhagavat purana. it is necessary to read it before speaking of krsna

 

An advaithi never is born or is dead

--"An" advaiti is not "an advaiti".... if you say "an" you make distinctions between "an" and the others. So advaitism (=no difference, no variety) cannot be viewed in ths word. So, if it would be possible, to be "advaitin" you have to die

 

I am not a person

--so what you are? a software?

 

The "thing" we follow wasnt given to us by a guru.God himself came down as Krishna and adhi shankara and gave the "thing" to us

--guru is a teacher... so krsna taught to arjuna and to us and shankara is called "acharya"... one who teachs with example aor one who teachs the behaviour

 

To reach advaithic stage you dont need a guru.You dont even need to know anything about vedas.

--to learn anything in this life, from sciences to sports, to games, you need texts and teachers. Even you are teaching me now while speaking and proposing me texts to read as bhagavad gita to sustain your statements. So, if you negate the role of teachers and texts, you are negating the value of communication. So why are you speaking to me in a forum? if i do not need anything to reach the ultimate goal what is the need of comunicating with you?

 

But he became an advaithi by pure devotion

--in advaita there's not devotion.... devotion means to serve, to love, to care for.. you do need at least two subjects to have devotion

 

God himself will come in search of us

--yes.. he has come in the form of his words, bhagavad gita for example.. so he has come, and we come to him reading him and applying his teachings on our own life

 

The fact that you deny vedas at a certain stage is stupid because.......

"Leave every vedic dharma and surrender to me" said krishna.Is he stupid then?

-- (vedic is you addiction....)this is written in the gita... so this is also a vedic dharma. Krsna is saying to leave any other duty and simply surrender to him. This is done by learning about him in vedic scriptures. If you do not know anything of krsna how can you surrender?

Love works like that... more you know about the beloved, more you love.. How can you love krsna without knowing him by vedas?

 

Vedas arent relevent at advaitha stage.Its like a textbook.Once you graduate you throw it away.

--this is simply illogic and sinful. if vedas are words of god, there will be not a moment where you will understand them completely. if there's a moment where vedas are useless.. so we have to say that vedas are false.. but obviously that's impossible

 

YOu should feel proud that smartha ramdoss set up shivaji's empire and saved you guys' ancestors from forceful conversions.

--many thanks... every one can do good things, even if his philosophy is not perfect

 

[Guest guest]

the only feature it shares is a formless God. But Allah is supposed to be SEPARATE from his creation, not within, and his creation in him.

 

So it is dwaita, just not with any form.

[Guest guest]

Allah is like Nirakar (formless) Saguna (with qualities) Brahman. It is not a part of creation but seperate from creation and humans, soul, etc. so it is more like Dvaita. Though the sufi's cannot strictly be following orthodox Islam, as their path is more like monisim (advaita) has a strong iranian spirituality influence and places more emphisis on pirs rather than prophet Mohammed.

[Guest guest]

If someone changes idea and accepts your interpretation you have converted him

------No need to convert.Can you convert to advaithic stage?Never.I dont want any dwaithi to convert to another dwaidhic religion.Thats a joke.even if somebody believes me he still will be in dwaidhic stage only.So where does conversion come from?

 

if i were god i would remember it. God does not forget to be god

-----Such is the power of maya.

So, if you find an hare krsna who despise devatas, he's not a good hare krsna and you have the right to say it to him.

---------Calling devthas "demi-god" is despising or not?

 

So, if it would be possible, to be "advaitin" you have to die

 

----an advaithi has neither birth nor death.I am immortal.

 

so what you are? a software?

---An advaithi and nirguna bhramman can be called as a software too.everything is our name.But we dont have a name.We all are.All are we.

 

to learn anything in this life, from sciences to sports, to games, you need texts and teachers.

 

-------Who taught a fish to swim?Who taught a new born baby to cry?even though advaitha values gurus highly,many have reached advaitha stage without gurus.Even westerners have done so.

 

in advaita there's not devotion....

-------Mistake.To move from dwaitha to advaitha u need devotion.But its just a tool to go to advaithic stage.Once u reach advaitha its to be discarded.

 

(vedic is you addiction....)this is written in the gita... so this is also a vedic dharma.

Whats the definition of dharma?Path shown in vedas.That is dharma.When krishna says "leave all dharmas" it denotes only vedic dharmas.What else is dharma then?

 

this is simply illogic and sinful. if vedas are words of god, there will be not a moment where you will understand them completely.

 

-----An advaithi doesnt have any sin or good.If vedas are the only way to reach krishna what about 70% of worlds population which hasnt heard about them?Vedas are a tool,thats all.

 

many thanks... every one can do good things, even if his philosophy is not perfect

 

------Here the philosophy is perfect and the path we show too is perfect.

 

 

[barney]

We all raise hands and praise God in our tounge but that is not what the Muslims believe so. The Muslims sy we pray to the devil and to them even Krishna is devil. I had my personal experience with Muslims so do not ask me for proof. What does it matter to you if I praise Sai Baba? He has not condemned you or your belief. He did not tell you to leave your religion nor tell you that you are a devil worshiper. Are you afraid that Sai Baba would invade your temple or take over whatever you possess? Since you question my faith I want you to give me a logical answer .

[maadhav]

very good spirit barney,

please keep it up.

thanks.

 

[Guest guest]

What does it matter to you if I praise Sai Baba?

--i am sincerely sorry for you

He has not condemned you or your belief

--he condemned all beliefs attempting to ridiculize god putting himself at god's place

Are you afraid that Sai Baba would invade your temple or take over whatever you possess?

--if we are spiritualists we are more concerned for our spiritual health than for material things. Under this point of view it is very much better to be muslim than saibabite

[Guest guest]

even if somebody believes me he still will be in dwaidhic stage only

#so if you speak you are converting... even if i do not follow you, the fact that i read you is changing my mind. So conversion is constanltly going on

 

f i were god i would remember it. God does not forget to be god

-----Such is the power of maya.

#maya is subordinated to god, he has no power on him. If you think that maya can veil god, switch the names

 

---------Calling devthas "demi-god" is despising or not?

#no... despising is the advaitist who says that the reality is formless and individuality (even the "demigod"'s one) is maya.

 

an advaithi has neither birth nor death.I am immortal.

#no... if you believe that your individual existence will disappear you are actually believing that you'll die

 

An advaithi and nirguna bhramman can be called as a software too

#... i agree... and the supreme Individual, the Param Brahman is the programmer

 

-------Who taught a fish to swim?Who taught a new born baby to cry?

#... the laws of karma who are put in this world by the supreme spiritual master Sri Bhagavan

 

even though advaitha values gurus highly,many have reached advaitha stage without gurus

#...advaita stage cannot be reached in individual life.. if you now merge with the Whole you disappear. So, true or not, the reaching of advaitic stage cannot be demosntrated

 

Mistake.To move from dwaitha to advaitha u need devotion.But its just a tool to go to advaithic stage.Once u reach advaitha its to be discarded

#... so in advaita there's no devotion.. as i said previously. (so advaita is incomplete... it miss something.. devotion that in another words it is love)

 

Whats the definition of dharma?Path shown in vedas

#... no... dharma is ontologic feature.... fire is hot, water is wet. The ontologic feature of a living being is to be a servant of bhagavan sri krsna. So krsna is saying "leave all dharmas who are not the real dharma... sanatana dharma.. to be my lover and servant"

 

An advaithi doesnt have any sin or good

#...come to steal my car then you will see if you have no sin or no good :-)

 

If vedas are the only way to reach krishna what about 70% of worlds population which hasnt heard about them?

#... veda means consciousness.. if in a scripture there's consciousness, this scripture is also veda. The other point of view is that to be fortunate to have the highest consciousness is karma, sukriti... mercy of god. So let us try to give this mercy from vedas and gita to everyone. I am one who was benefitted by indians to have this consciousness even if i am at the other side of the world

 

Vedas are a tool,thats all

#... the tool that help us to reach transcendence is transcendental... do not blasphemy vedas please

 

Here the philosophy is perfect and the path we show too is perfect.

#...you cannot whow your path. if you reach perfection you cease to exist and disappear. Your perfection is to lose yourself. If you are still here you are separated like me

 

remember.. do not blaspheme vedas.. ok???

[Guest guest]

You quoted this a reason for worshiping anything,

 

In advaita there isnt any conversion."Whomever you worship you only worship me" said krishna.So we see all religions worshiping only Krishna and thus there isnt any conversion at all.

 

but krishna in bhagvad gita as it is 7.20 says

 

Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

 

http://www.abc-of-yoga.com/bhagavadgita/ch7and8.asp another gita

They, whose wisdom has been carried away by various desires impelled by their own Sanskaara, resort to other gods (or deities) and practice various religious rites. (7.20)

 

http://oaks.nvg.org/useful-gita.html

Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7.20].

 

As you can tell krishna does not approve or regard highly any will nilly worship of any diety, they are not one.