First Experience for Islam

October 20, 2004

so if you speak you are converting... even if i do not follow you, the fact that i read you is changing my mind. So conversion is constanltly going on

------I dont speak with an intention to convert.If you choose to convert after reading my message it means that it hasnt reached you properly.Advaitha has no conversions.

maya is subordinated to god, he has no power on him. If you think that maya can veil god, switch the names

-------Maya doesnt have power on god.And you are not god.You are part of god.Parts of god are not as conscious as god.But they are god neverthless.Maya doesnt have any impact on the god,but has an impact on his parts(us) by his discretion.

no... despising is the advaitist who says that the reality is formless and individuality (even the "demigod"'s one) is maya.

--------advaitha doesnt say "god is formless".It said that "all is god".There is a huge difference between both statements.

no... if you believe that your individual existence will disappear you are actually believing that you'll die

--------Whether I believe or not,my individual existence DOESNT EXIST.I dont exist individually.I only believe worngly that i exist individually.I only kill that wrong belief(maya) and not myself.

#... i agree... and the supreme Individual, the Param Brahman is the programmer

-------NO,he is both the software and programmer.

#... the laws of karma who are put in this world by the supreme spiritual master Sri Bhagavan

------That is none other than all of us.Bhagvan is us.Us is bhagwan.

#...advaita stage cannot be reached in individual life.. if you now merge with the Whole you disappear. So, true or not, the reaching of advaitic stage cannot be demosntrated

----------If I merge with whole i dont disappear.I become immortal.Many have demonstrated advaithic stage.Shankara,sanath kumar etc.

so in advaita there's no devotion.. as i said previously. (so advaita is incomplete... it miss something.. devotion that in another words it is love)

-------yes,advaitha stage has no devotion.But we dont miss it.Will I miss school in college?

#... no... dharma is ontologic feature.... fire is hot, water is wet. The ontologic feature of a living being is to be a servant of bhagavan sri krsna.

----------Without vedas there isnt any dharma.Even surrendering to krishna is as vedic dharma.The highest dharma.

An advaithi doesnt have any sin or good

#...come to steal my car then you will see if you have no sin or no good :-)

An advaithi doesnt need a car or anything.He seeks himself and gets himself.so why should he steal your car?

I am one who was benefitted by indians to have this consciousness even if i am at the other side of the world

-----This is the exact reason why i earlier stopped debating with my brothers,visistathvaidhis.You guys go in the right path and believe that we guys go in wrong path.We believe that both of us go in right path.So by both logic you guys are in right path.But i started this debate only since some mischevious vaishnavite said "advaitha is islam".Thats why i got wild,which i shouldnt have got.

I end the debate here.YOu guys go in the right path.why should I disturb you guys?Proceed in your path.we will meet in vaikunda.And if there you find that i was wrong,recommend me to krishna,ok?(just a joke)

October 21, 2004

------I dont speak with an intention to convert.

xxIntention does not matter.... anything you say influences who is listening. So if you influence because you want or not wanting it .. influence is there

Parts of god are not as conscious as god

xxNo both are satcitananda.. the difference is that the satcitananda of the parts comes from the god's one

Maya doesnt have any impact on the god,but has an impact on his parts(us) by his discretion.

xxSo we live and god lives, we are eternal and god's eternal... no merging

It said that "all is god"

xxSo even the variety is god and individuality is god

my individual existence DOESNT EXIST

xxYou have said before that there's gods and parts of god

I dont exist individually.

xxI surely exist individually.... because i am not conscious of your existence

I only kill that wrong belief(maya) and not myself.

xxIf you kill the belief to be yourself ... you kill yourself. You've said that you are under illusion of individuality

NO,he is both the software and programmer.

xxhe's and he's not simultaneously

Us is bhagwan.

xxNot me... i am not feeling your existence. So your existence is separated by mine, you said that you have illusory individual existence, so you are illusion, so you are not bhagavan.. bhagavan is not illusion

If I merge with whole i dont disappear

xxYou have said that individual existence is illusion. so if you reach the ultimate goal you merge and you die as individual. How the body can sustain without and individual inside?

Many have demonstrated advaithic stage.Shankara

xxShankara says:"bhaja govinda..." not "merge in govinda....".. bhaja means two subject and an action... where's the advaita?

yes,advaitha stage has no devotion.But we dont miss it.

xxif You have not something you miss it. In college you have the school as a knowledge who'sinside you and you use it and remember. If in advaita stage you die as individual so you do not express love. And theorical love is not love. So it is impossible that in the perfect state you cannot do something

Without vedas there isnt any dharma

xxVedas mean consciousness... there's no existence without consciousness

Even surrendering to krishna is as vedic dharma.The highest dharma.

xxThat's why we have to leave other dharmas and surrender to krsna as he says in the gita

An advaithi doesnt need a car or anything

xxSo why you need a computer?

You guys go in the right path and believe that we guys go in wrong path

xxOpinion differences .... where's the problem?

We believe that both of us go in right path

xxNo..because you are objecting my conclusions. If i say "Krsna is the supreme... there's no merging..but remaining individuals and loving him eternally" you do not agree. If i say that you do not go to my same path you do not agree.

Krsna says "surrender to me..." you do not surrender so you do not go to krsna. If you say that you go... you are not agreeing

But i started this debate only since some mischevious vaishnavite said "advaitha is islam"

xxYou have said that advaita is islam.. because advaita is all.. no discriminations, no distinctions.. not duality. So for you, to say "hinduism and not islam" is meaningless

I end the debate here

xxbecause you have no answers

Proceed in your path.we will meet in vaikunda.

xxNo...you do not go in vaikunta if you do not want krsna... but you maybe go to mohamed because you have said that advaita is everything

recommend me to krishna,ok?(just a joke)

xxKrsna is not your schoolfriend that you can make jokes on him.. be respectful

barney · October 21, 2004

-he condemned all beliefs attempting to ridiculize god putting himself at god's place-

Where is your proof that he condemns all beeliefs?

-if we are spiritualists we are more concerned for our spiritual health than for material things. Under this point of view it is very much better to be muslim than saibabite-

No one is saying you cannot be a Muslims. By all means but that does not give you the right to condemn what others believe so. Morever even Muslims are visiting his ashram daily and I wonder if you can stop that. "One man's hooney is another man's poison". If you do not care or worry than why should you pick on Sai Baba? Perhaps I think it is the fear in you. Fearing that he has the power to attract followers of any religion. Fear that Islam might lose its followers. Fear that your beilef would be questionable. I prefer to be an atheist than a hypocrate Muslim. The word ISLAM brings fear to hearts of people all over the world. History would tell you the atrocities it's followers committed by invading non Muslim countries and robbing their riches and India was a good example and here you want to support Islam. A stupid move.

October 21, 2004

So you wont let the debate end.Ok,Here we go.

xxIntention does not matter.... anything you say influences who is listening

--------Intentions are the onlt thing which matters.Why did Krishna forgive the hunter who killed krishna?He did so since the hunter thought that he was hunting a deer.So interntions only matter and not deeds.

xxNo both are satcitananda.. the difference is that the satcitananda of the parts comes from the god's one

-------God is in sachidananda and his parts too get sachidandnda if they remove that maya.

my individual existence DOESNT EXIST

xxYou have said before that there's gods and parts of god

-----------Even now i say it.Do you mean that your hand isnt you?Or your leg isnt you?God is occean and we are a droplet of water from that occean.The droplet of water has all the charecteristics of the occean.But if you ask it to drown a city itb cannot do so.But still its part of an occean.

xxIf you kill the belief to be yourself ... you kill yourself. You've said that you are under illusion of individuality

---------------------I dont kill myself.I only kill a belief.All of us change many of our beliefs.Is that killing?When i kill my individuality, i become everything.So i survive in a different form.I kill my present form,not myself.

xxNot me... i am not feeling your existence. So your existence is separated by mine, you said that you have illusory individual existence, so you are illusion, so you are not bhagavan.. bhagavan is not illusion

-------------I dont have an illsuiroy existence.I really exist along with illusion.

xxYou have said that individual existence is illusion. so if you reach the ultimate goal you merge and you die as individual. How the body can sustain without and individual inside?

----I dont die.My body too doesnt die.I take another form and exist in another form.My body takes another form and exists in another form.

xxShankara says:"bhaja govinda..." not "merge in govinda....".. bhaja means two subject and an action... where's the advaita?

-----Shankara said "Baja govindham" to show me the path to merge with govindhan.

In college you have the school as a knowledge who'sinside you and you use it and remember. If in advaita stage you die as individual so you do not express love. And theorical love is not love

------An advaithi doesnt miss bakthi.And he will have no feelings except "sachidananda" and unbounded mercy for all others.Shankara too was an advaithi.But he gave us all this concepts only since he had unbounded love on all of us.

xxThat's why we have to leave other dharmas and surrender to krsna as he says in the gita

------you guys says surrendering to krishna is the end.I say its the beginning.Its the beginning stage on your advathic journey.

An advaithi doesnt need a car or anything

xxSo why you need a computer?

-------I have not yet reached the advaithic stage yet.I am a still in dwaithic stage.Once I reach there i dont need a computer or car.

We believe that both of us go in right path

xxNo..because.........

---------when i said "we" i meant "we" advaithis,disciples of shankara.Not "you" and "me".

xxYou have said that advaita is islam.. because advaita is all.. no discriminations, no distinctions.. not duality. So for you, to say "hinduism and not islam" is meaningless

--------yes it is meaningless in advaithic stage.But i still am in dwaidhic stage.So it is meaningful now.Not later.

xxNo...you do not go in vaikunta if you do not want krsna... but you maybe go to mohamed because you have said that advaita is everything

------------I wont go to vaikunda.But he will come and drag me to vaikunda and I will sit near him.But then I will tell krishna that give me advaitha moksha and he will give it.That is higher than vaikunda.

recommend me to krishna,ok?(just a joke)

xxKrsna is not your schoolfriend that you can make jokes on him.. be respectful

-----------Friend,I recommend that you read bharathiar songs on krishna.He has sung krishna as his mother,father,wife,child,friend and servant.where does dis-respect come here?

October 21, 2004

Intentions are the onlt thing which matters

--intentions and facts....if you give me a punch in my face, the punch is more important. So if you do not want to convince or influence people do not speak

Do you mean that your hand isnt you?

--my hand is not me... if you cut it i remain me

The droplet of water has all the charecteristics of the occean.

--so if you say that your existence is unreal... also the existence of the whole is unreal?

I dont kill myself.I only kill a belief.

--you said that your existence is illusory.. that you belive to exist but you do not exist. So if you kill the belief you die

When i kill my individuality, i become everything

--everything means "individuality included"... if you kill individuality something is missing from the whole. You cannot "become" if you are an illusion.. illusions only disappear, they do not become anything

I dont have an illsuiroy existence

--"I" is sign of individuality... if you say that individuality is illusion .. an illusion who says that she's not illusory is very funny

My body too doesnt die.I take another form and exist in another form

--so where's the realization if you remain in maya? how can you sustain your body if you lose individuality? when the individual gets out from the body there's death. I do not know living bodies without an individual inside

Shankara said "Baja govindham" to show me the path to merge with govindhan

--shankara acharya knows the vocabulary... he says merge when he wants to say merge, and worship when he wants that you worship.. are you more intelligent than sri acharya?

An advaithi doesnt miss bakthi

--bhakti is a relationship.. if there's no discrimination of subjects relationships are not possible

And he will have no feelings except "sachidananda"

--cit means consciousness... and in your "realization" there's nothing to be conscious of because there's no other objects and other people.. but only you. So what you have to know if you are alone?

and unbounded mercy for all others

--wich mercy if you believe that they are all illusion and you are trying to teach to them a path that will lead them to the annihilation? death?

you guys says surrendering to krishna is the end.I say its the beginning

--you tendence to blasphemy is clear.. nothing is beyond god, and no journey can be done outside god. You are contraddicting the bhagavad gita and the logic

I have not yet reached the advaithic stage yet.I am a still in dwaithic stage

--so why you preach a theory that you do not live?

when i said "we" i meant "we" advaithis,disciples of shankara

--you were speaking with me and you said "both of us".... and you're not a disciple of shankara.He says "worship govinda".. but you want to avoid govinda and go beyond (govinda means "master and source of all senses, perceptions..." how can you perceive a world outside govinda?)

yes it is meaningless in advaithic stage.But i still am in dwaidhic stage

--so you are nothing... not yet and advaiti, but still and illusory individual... better to be muslim

I wont go to vaikunda

--of course... krsna is humble and respectiful.. he does not force you to go to him if you despise him

I will tell krishna that give me advaitha moksha and he will give it.That is higher than vaikunda.

--no one can give more than he has already... so if krsna can give moksa, so he's greater than moksa.... and you, blaspheming him saying that there's something more attractive than krsna... until you have this bad behaviour you will not have neither krsna nor moksa

He has sung krishna as his mother,father,wife,child,friend and servant.where does dis-respect come here?

--for what concerns to you and me we are subordinated to krsna... first let us be humble and get realization,then krsna will decide if he wants to give us confidence

no blasphemy

October 22, 2004

--intentions and facts....if you give me a punch in my face, the punch is more important. So if you do not want to convince or influence people do not speak

When the punch is given by your father for you smoking,which is important?Punch or intention?even if i go to school people will get influenced by my walking style and will try to walk like me.So should i stop walking?Intention is important,not actual happening.

--my hand is not me... if you cut it i remain me

If we cut away a man's head which is that man?head or body?

--so if you say that your existence is unreal... also the existence of the whole is unreal?

existence of me as a part of whole is always real.existence of me individually is always unral.

---everything means "individuality included"... if you kill individuality something is missing from the whole.

imagine A ship's whose weight is 45 tonnes.It has a cargo of cows.One cow is dead by heart attack.Weigh the ship before its death and after its death.It will be the same.change of status of the cow did not affect the weight of the ship.Similiarly the whole will remain whole irrespective of the change of my individuality.

--"I" is sign of individuality... if you say that individuality is illusion .. an illusion who says that she's not illusory is very funny

I'm not an illusion.Im a part of the whole who got caught by illusion.I know my real nature is not illusion.So I say it.Im real who is in the hold of illusion.

--I do not know living bodies without an individual inside

Bodies take another form.maybe as ash,they too survive in other forms.Maybe they mix with soil and become food of insects and become manure and survive in some form.

---shankara acharya knows the vocabulary... he says merge when he wants to say merge, and worship when he wants that you worship.. are you more intelligent than sri acharya?

See shankara's teachings as a whole.Dont take just one line and say thats the sole thing he taught.It was a part of his teachings.In this place he said worship.In other places he said merge.

----bhakti is a relationship.. if there's no discrimination of subjects relationships are not possible

when all become one why do you need relationships?

---So what you have to know if you are alone?

I want to know that I'm alone without any enemies,desires,friends or anything.

---wich mercy if you believe that they are all illusion and you are trying to teach to them a path that will lead them to the annihilation? death?

When a child matures into an adult,do we say that the child has died?

you guys says surrendering to krishna is the end.I say its the beginning

--you tendence to blasphemy is clear.. nothing is beyond god, and no journey can be done outside god. You are contraddicting the bhagavad gita and the logic

Im only saying the philosophy of shankara.He said that surrendering to god is the beginning of the journey to attain advaitha moksha,which is nothing but realising that I myself am a part of god.Nothing is beyond god,yes.But I say I am that god.Not only me, but you and all others too.

I have not yet reached the advaithic stage yet.I am a still in dwaithic stage

--so why you preach a theory that you do not live?

When a passenger is going from New york to los angeles-if a fellow passenger asks him the way to new york,should he refuse to tell the way since he himself has not gone there?

--govinda means "master and source of all senses, perceptions..." how can you perceive a world outside govinda?)

I say Im govinda.Thats all.

--so you are nothing... not yet and advaiti, but still and illusory individual... better to be muslim

I'm a advaithi trying to wriggle myself away from dwaidhi stage.

--of course... krsna is humble and respectiful.. he does not force you to go to him if you despise him.

I dont despise him.How can I despise myself?

---no one can give more than he has already... so if krsna can give moksa, so he's greater than moksa....

He himself is the moksha.He gives himself to me.I become him.He becomes me.

---for what concerns to you and me we are subordinated to krsna... first let us be humble and get realization,....

And get liberation from maya.

October 22, 2004

When the punch is given by your father for you smoking,which is important?Punch or intention?

--both

If we cut away a man's head which is that man?head or body?

-example has gone away from his original reason... you were using it to demonstrate that if a part of god goesin maya, god goes in maya. Nonsense

existence of me as a part of whole is always real.existence of me individually is always unral.

--the whole contains your existence, the whole has anthing unreal... so your existence is real

It will be the same.change of status of the cow did not affect the weight of the ship.Similiarly the whole will remain whole irrespective of the change of my individuality.

--the weight of the ship is changed... the whole load of cows is no more complete. The whole does not lose even a milligram, even a fragment or it is not complete

I'm not an illusion.Im a part of the whole who got caught by illusion

--you said that your being a part (=an individual) was illusion.. now you are saying that you were caught by illusion but you're real. Decide

Bodies take another form.maybe as ash,they too survive in other forms

--bodies do not make any actions whitout an individual inside... so they do not "take", so they do not "survive"....

See shankara's teachings as a whole

--the whole is that he has taught advaitism for the atheists and materialists then he has adviced that if they want to make a step further they have to worship govinda... or they are mudha,,, fools

bhakti is a relationship.. if there's no discrimination of subjects relationships are not possible

when all become one why do you need relationships?

--so do not tell lies saying that in advaita there's bhakti. Advaita is incomplete because relationships are missing

I want to know that I'm alone without any enemies,desires,friends or anything.

--if you are alone there's nothing to know... so advaita miss also CIT

When a child matures into an adult,do we say that the child has died?

--maturation means that individuality is still there.. you are speaking of losing it.. so you are killing the child

Im only saying the philosophy of shankara.He said that surrendering to god is the beginning

--shankara says bhaja govinda as ultimate instruction, not preliminary

which is nothing but realising that I myself am a part of god.

--you have said that you are illusion, now you say that you are a part of god... decide

Nothing is beyond god,yes.But I say I am that god

--you have said that your existence is illusion... god cannot be illuded or how can he control maya who is a subordinated energy?

When a passenger is going from New york to los angeles-if a fellow passenger asks him the way to new york,should he refuse to tell the way since he himself has not gone there?

--you cannot demonstrate even the existence of the train... no one has come back to say to you how losangeles is, otherwise he never went to losangeles. In other words, if one reaches advaita stage he cannot come back to show his stage to others. Because he has lose individuality.... so train, journey and goal are in your imagination and you are talking about imagination

--govinda means "master and source of all senses, perceptions..." how can you perceive a world outside govinda?)

I say Im govinda.Thats all.

--you're not master of the senses because you are prey of maya... so maya is master of your senses and govinda is master of maya... so you are not govinda

I'm a advaithi trying to wriggle myself away from dwaidhi stage

--no... advaita means no discrimination.... no dvaita.... Advaita is complete or it is a fantasy..

I dont despise him.How can I despise myself?

--you despise him because you think that you can use him to tell your strange lies instead of worshiping him as the acharya has said. And you despise yourself because you live in this poor gratification of saying to others the fool thing that you are god. And others, obviously, see you as a poor fool

He himself is the moksha.He gives himself to me.I become him.He becomes me.

--you have said that you were already god. God has not to became god, he does not lose his divinity. So if you needed moksa you were not god, god is eternally free.

first let us be humble and get realization,....

And get liberation from maya.

--if you are not a fool you have already seen that your theories are completely illogic... this is maya, so abandone them and stop cheating others trying toconverting them

be a muslim.. a muslim is much more advanced than you .. he worships god while you are blaspheming

maadhav · October 22, 2004

<< be a muslim.. a muslim is much more advanced than you ..>>

for those who may want to become a muslim,

which web link gives the best and true translation of koran and hadith please?

and

which translator and publisher of koran and hadith gives the best/ true translation please?

what benefit one derives by becoming a muslim please?

some may choose to do jeehad, so who would fund them to take care of the rest of the jeehadi's family please?

is there any specific name and address you could share here please? sad thing is that money is needed even for one who wants to do jeehad and become a martyr.

for what a muslim should be proud of please?

some may want superior joy than just having sex with the 70 hauris in haven who have been used for 1400 years.

does islam offer anything higher pleasure than that please?

could you please list some achievements of islam please?

sorry I asked too much.

but would apprecaite whatever answers you could give.

do any hindu readers have any questions for this guest?

if so, please ask him, like i did.

October 22, 2004

you have perfectly understood the sense of the sentence and now you are trying to turn it in some political sense

if you name yourself as hindu, but you believe such foolishness that you are god, it is very much better to be a muslim and to believe that you are a servant of god

whatever religious denomination you take.. the first one is the worst offence and it gives to you very much more suffering in the future than the second

October 22, 2004

I see that you have used the words "fool" 3 times and "nonsense" once in your debate.I can see that you have started to lose your temper.That is a sign of losing your cool.In debates you should never lose your cool.Debates are prolonged and will test every single nerve of a debater.I am not advising you,but tell the norms of debate.And a Karma yogi should never get angry or lose his temper.You will meet many fools in debate.They will argue all kinds of things.You have to tolerate them.Else you lose the debate.I am telling you all this,since you are in the holiest cause of spreading krishna's messages.I dont want you to lose any debates by poor debating skills.You are not speaking your words,after all.You speak krishna's words.So dont speak them in anger.Arjuna too asked krishna many foolish questions.Did Krishna lose his temper?he didnt.

When the punch is given by your father for you smoking,which is important?Punch or intention?

--both

No.Only intentions are important.When Lord Ram visited Sabari,she gave him fruits.But she was afraid that Ram might get sour fruits.So she bit the fruits,tasted them and gave them to him.Ram did not see the action here.He only saw the love of sabari there.So your argument dies.Lord only sees the intentions,not actions.

example has gone away from his original reason... you were using it to demonstrate that if a part of god goesin maya, god goes in maya. Nonsense

------Example dint go away.You said you are you,even if you lose a hand.I ask whether you are still you even if you lose your head.

the weight of the ship is changed...

---How will weight of the ship change if one of the cargo, a cow-dies?

you said that your being a part (=an individual) was illusion.. now you are saying that you were caught by illusion but you're real. Decide

----Im a part of god who was caught in illusion.But still I am real.I as a part of lord am real.I see myself as seperate from lord.That is not real.

bodies do not make any actions whitout an individual inside... so they do not "take", so they do not "survive"....

------Bodies change forms when they are burnt or buried.They survive in different forms always.Not as bodies but as ash,manure,food for insects etc.

the whole is that he has taught advaitism for the atheists and materialists then he has adviced that if they want to make a step further they have to worship govinda... or they are mudha,,, fools

-------The four sankara peethams established by shankara dont support your view.

so do not tell lies saying that in advaita there's bhakti. Advaita is incomplete because relationships are missing

---In advaitha stage there isnt any bakthi.To reach that stage you need bakthi.

if you are alone there's nothing to know.

-----when I know everything also there is nothing more to know.

maturation means that individuality is still there.. you are speaking of losing it.. so you are killing the child

-----The child gets transormed into an adult.How am i killing the child?I am maturing the kid.

shankara says bhaja govinda as ultimate instruction, not preliminary

--------Shankara said Bhajagovindham for "fools who dont worship govinda".Fools are in zero stage.Worshiping govinda is the next stage,that is starting stage.Advaitha moksha is the third stage.The end result of worshiping govinda.

you have said that you are illusion, now you say that you are a part of god... decide

--------Im a part of god,who is in illusion.

god cannot be illuded or how can he control maya who is a subordinated energy?

--------Maya is nothing but a yogic power of god.

if one reaches advaita stage he cannot come back to show his stage to others.

--------People like shankara reached the advaithic stage first and came back to show us the path,because of the love they had on us.They went to los angeles and found that new york and los angeles are the same.They told us, "you fools,you are actually in los-angeles.But becasue of maya you think that you are in new york.Open your eyes".So actually we are in los angeles,but think that we are in new york by maya.

maya is master of your senses and govinda is master of maya... so you are not govinda

-----Im a part of govinda.Maya is not master of my senses.It is the illusion that covers my eyes.Govinda is the master of my senses.

be a muslim.. a muslim is much more advanced than you .. he worships god while you are blaspheming

----I am only reflecting shankara's views.How is that blasphemising?

October 22, 2004

Dear people,

I have been through this topic, and what i would like to state isnt an argument, its just my viewpoint.

I am a proud to be a muslim, because of what it teaches, and if any of you should argue about islam, then you should gain enough knowledge before attacking any religion.

We belive god is one, because as u may see here in this discussion form, people just simply dont agree on some things, which would probably result in disasters. God is the supreme creator of everything, your own exsistance. And the main reasone this thought has developed in Man is that we were equiped by logic and many other things that make sure to us that if something is created then there is a creator. The teachings of islam could be concidered the last edition of all religions, hoping to solve all the arguments and myths and stories that have been told throughout history. The main teaching of islam is a guide to your life, where if you practice them, you would find and feel the results.

I would like to also say that Islam is a peacefull religion, and we are taught in islam that we must allow people to belive what they choose, however our only duty is to show them our own ways. Please people dont judge a religion by the acts of few, because you would then be judging without justise. I havnt seen anyone concider the islamic code of behavior that is what we stand for.

Here is how we as muslims are supposed to deal with People that abuse muslims, enemies and non - muslims.

Those who abuse Muslims:

"Bear patiently what they (abusers) say." (20:130)

"Disregard their annoying talk." (33:48)

"When you hear Allah's messages disbelieved in and mocked at, sit not with them until they enter into some other talk." (4:140)

"And if you invite them to guidance, they hear not; and you see them looking towards you, yet they see not. Take to forgiveness and enjoin good and turn away from the ignorant." (7:198-199)

"The Messenger of Allah and his Companions used to forgive the idolaters and the followers of the book (Jews and Christians), as Allah had commanded them, and they used to show patience on hearing hurtful words." (Report in Bukhari.)

Enemies:

"Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34)

"Many of the people of the book wish that they could turn you back into disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from themselves. . .. But pardon and forgive." (2:109)

"And you will always find treachery in them, except a few of them. So pardon them and forgive. Surely Allah loves those who do good to others." (5:13)

NonMuslims:

"Allah does not forbid you concerning those people who do not fight you because of your religion, nor expel you from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly.. . . Allah forbids you only concerning those people who fight you for your religion, and drive you from your homes and help others to expel you, that you make friends of them." (60: 8,9)

"Whatever good they (people of other religions) do, they will not be denied it (by Allah), and Allah knows who the righteous are." (3:115)

"O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and do not let the hatred of a people incite you not to act with justice. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty." (5:8)

"Call (others) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the best manner." (16:125)

"Argue not with the people of the Book (Jews, Christians, and other people having scriptures) except by the best (means), save those of them who act unjustly. But say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit." (29:46)

October 23, 2004

a list of some of the good qualities a Muslim must try to acquire.

Below we give, in the words of the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the chief qualities a Muslim should display:

Truthfulness:

"O you who believe! keep your duty to Allah and speak straight, true words." (Holy Quran 33:70)

"O you who believe, keep your duty to Allah, and be with the truthful people." (9:119)

"Be maintainers of justice and bearers of true witness for Allah, even if it (the truth) goes against your own selves or parents or relatives or someone who is rich or poor." (4:135)

Sincerity:

"Serve Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience." (39:2)

"It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that you say things which you do not do." (61:3)

"Woe to those who pray but are unmindful of their prayers, who do good to be seen." (107:4-6)

Unselfishness:

"You cannot attain to righteousness unless you spend (in charity) out of those things which you love." (3:91)

"They (the true believers) give food, out of love for Allah, to the poor, the orphan and the slave, saying: We feed you only for Allah's pleasure - we desire from you neither reward nor thanks." (76:8-9)

"Do no favour seeking gain." (74:6)

Humility:

"The servants of the Beneficent (Allah) are those who walk on the earth in humility." (25:63)

"Do not turn your face away from people in contempt, nor go about in the land exultingly." (31:18)

"Do not ascribe purity to yourselves. Allah knows best who is righteous." (53:32)

Patience:

"Allah loves those who are patient." (3:145)

"Give good news to the patient, who, when a misfortune befalls them, say: We are Allah's and to Him do we return." (2:155-156)

Forgiveness:

"Pardon (people) and overlook (their faults). Don't you love that Allah should forgive you." (24:22)

"(The dutiful are) . . . those who restrain their anger and pardon people. Allah loves those who do good to others." (3:134)

"Whenever they (true believers) are angry they forgive." (42:37)

"The recompense of evil is punishment like it. But whoever forgives (an evil committed against himself) and amends (matters), his reward is with Allah. . . . Whoever is patient and forgives, that is a matter of great resolution." (42:40, 43)

When the Holy Prophet Muhammad defeated his enemies in Makka and returned to that city as its conqueror, he forgave them in the following words:

"No reproof be against you this day; Allah may forgive you, and He is the most Merciful of those who show mercy." (12:92)

Purity and cleanliness:

"He indeed is successful who purifies himself (in mind and body), and remembers the name of his Lord, then prays." (87:14-15)

"Purify your garments and shun uncleanness." (74:4-5)

Honesty:

"Don't go near the property of an orphan, except in a goodly way, till he attains maturity. And fulfil the promise (you make) . . .. Give full measure when you measure out, and weigh with a true balance." (17:34-35)

"Do not swallow up your property among yourselves by false means, nor offer it as a bribe to the officials so that you may swallow up other people's property unlawfully while you know." (2:188)

Goodness and kindness to others:

"Allah commands you to uphold justice and to do good to others and to give to the relatives." (16:90)

Three degrees of doing good are mentioned here: "justice," which means returning any good that someone has done you with equal good; "do good to others," which means taking the initiative in doing good to others; and "give to the relatives," which means doing good to people instinctively and naturally just as one does good to one's close relatives.

"Do good to others, surely Allah loves those who do good to others." (2:195)

Consideration and respect for others:

"O you who believe! do not enter houses other than your own until you have asked permission and greeted the inmates . . . and if it is said to you, 'Go back', then go back." (24:27-28)

"O you who believe! avoid most of suspicion (against others), for surely suspicion in some cases is sin; and do not spy (into other people's affairs), nor let some of you backbite others." (49:12)

"When you are greeted with a greeting, greet with one better than it, or return it (in the same terms at least)." (4:86)

Courage:

Speaking of a small number of Muslims facing a big and powerful enemy, the Quran relates:

"Those to whom men said: people have gathered against you, so fear them; but this increased their faith, and they said: Allah is sufficient for us and He is an excellent Guardian." (3:173)

Moderation:

"Eat and drink, but do not be immoderate." (7:31)

"Do not chain your hand to your neck (so that you are mean in spending), nor stretch it out to the utmost limit (so that you waste everything)." (17:29)

Regarding the performance of religious duties, the Holy Prophet has given the following advice:

"Religion is easy, but any one who exerts himself too much in religious devotions will get overcome by it; so you should just act rightly, and keep to the mean, and be of good cheer, and ask for Allah's help morning, evening, and a part of the night." (Bukhari.)

Cheerfulness:

"Be of good cheer." (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)

"It is an act of charity to meet your fellow with a cheerful face." (Holy Prophet in Mishkat.)

Finally, we give a verse of the Holy Quran mentioning a number of qualities a Muslim, man or woman, should try to acquire:

"The truthful men and the truthful women, the patient men and the patient women, the humble men and the humble women, the charitable men and the charitable women, the fasting men and the fasting women, the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard their chastity, the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember Allah much - for all these Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward." (33:35)

How does Islam require a Muslim to treat the people around him?

The Holy Quran and the Hadith mention various categories of people that one has to deal with, and give a great deal of guidance on how to behave towards them.

Parents and the elderly:

"Your Lord has commanded that you worship none but Him, and do good to parents. If one or both of them reach old age with you, do not say 'Fie' to them, nor chide them, but speak to them a generous word . . . and say, My Lord, have mercy on them as they brought me up when I was little." (17:23-24).

"The Holy Prophet said, It is one of the greatest sins that a man should curse his parents. Someone said, How can a man curse his own parents? He said, If a man abuses the father of another, that person will abuse his parents (in return)." (Report in Bukhari.)

Other Near Relatives:

"Do good to the near relatives." (4:36)

"Give to the near relative his due, and also to the needy and to the traveller (in need of help). (17:26).

Children:

"Do not kill your children for fear of poverty - We (Allah) provide for them and for you." (17:31)

"A man came to the Holy Prophet and said, `You kiss children but we do not kiss them'. The Holy Prophet said, `Do I have any control over you if Allah has taken away mercy from your heart'." (Report in Bukhari.)

Orphans and destitute children:

"Maintain the orphans out of their property and clothe them and give them a good education. Test them when they reach the age of majority, and if you find them to be mature, hand over their property to them." (4:5-6)

"I and the man who brings up an orphan will be in paradise like this," said the Holy Prophet, putting together his forefinger and middle finger. (Report in Bukhari.)

Poor and needy:

"Righteous is he who . . . gives away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free." (2:177)

"What will make you understand what the uphill road (to success) is? (It is) to free a slave, or feed at a time of hunger an orphan who is a relative or the poor man lying in the dust." (90:11-16)

"Have you seen him who goes against religion? That is the one who is rough to the orphan and does not urge the feeding of the needy." (107:1-3)

"(The true believers are those) in whose wealth there is a known right for the beggar and the destitute." (70:24-25)

"The person who manages things for the widow and the poor is like the one who strives hard in the way of Allah." (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)

Neighbours:

"Be good to . . . the neighbour belonging to your people and the alien neighbour." (4:36)

"He is not a believer who fills his stomach while his neighbour is hungry." (Holy Prophet in Hadith.)

"The angel Gabriel continued to enjoin upon me good treatment of the neighbour, so much so that I thought he would make him heir to one's property." (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)

Wives/Husbands:

"They (your wives) are a garment for you, and you are a garment for them." (2:187)

"Of His (Allah's) signs is that He created spouses for you from yourselves so that you might find quiet of mind in them, and He put between you love and compassion." (30:21)

"The best of you are those who are kindest to their wives." (Holy Prophet in Tirmizi.)

A man related:

"I asked Aishah (Holy Prophet's wife): What did the Prophet do when in his house? She said, `He served his wife', meaning that he did work for his wife." (Report in Bukhari.)

Employers/Employees:

"(The true believers) are those who are keepers of their trusts and covenants." (23:8)

"Trusts" include the duties and the other things with which an employee is entrusted by his employer; "covenants" include the contract by which both the employer and the employee are bound.

"Allah says: There are three persons whose opponents I shall be on the Day of Judgment . . . (the third is) the person who employs a servant and receives fully the labour due from him, but does not pay his wages." (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)

Ans, a companion of the Holy Prophet, related:

"I served the Holy Prophet for ten years, and he never said to me, `fie', nor did he ever say `Why have you done this', or `Why have you not done that'." (Report in Bukhari.)

Animals:

"There is no animal in the earth, nor a bird flying on its two wings, but they are communities like yourselves (O people)." (6:38)

Someone asked the Holy Prophet, "Is there a reward for us (from Allah) for doing good to beasts?" He replied:

"In every animal having a liver fresh with life there is a reward." (Holy Prophet in Mishkat.)

"Be careful of your duty to Allah in the matter of dumb animals; ride them while they are in a fit condition, and eat them while they are in a fit condition." (Holy Prophet in Abu Dawud.)

"Whoever tills a field, and birds and beasts eat from it, it is an act of charity." (Holy Prophet in Musnad of Ahmad.)

Authorities:

Regarding electing and appointing people to positions of authority, the Quran says:

"Allah commands you to make over trusts (or positions of trust and authority) to those worthy of them." (4:58)

Some other principles are as follows:

"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything (with your authorities) refer it to Allah and the Messenger" (4:59), i.e. settle the disagreement by means of the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet's example.

"Obedience (of authority) is due only in good matters", i.e., orders to do wrong must not be obeyed. (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)

The first head of state of the Muslims after the Holy Prophet, the famous Hazrat Abu Bakr, said in a speech after his election:

"Help me if I am in the right. Correct me if I am in the wrong. Obey me as long as I obey Allah and His Messenger; in case I disobey Allah and His Messenger, I have no right to obedience from you."

"The most excellent jihad is to speak the truth in the face of an unjust ruler." (Holy Prophet in Mishkat.)

Muslims:

"Hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited. And remember Allah's favour to you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts, so by His favour you became brethren." (3:103)

"The believers are brethren, so make peace between your brethren . . . Do not find fault with your own people, nor call one another by (bad) nicknames." (49:10-12)

"Help one another in good and righteous works, and do not help one another in sin and aggression." (5:2)

"Do not hate one another and do not be jealous of one another and do not boycott one another, and be servants of Allah, as brothers; and it is not lawful for a Muslim to sever his relations with his brother for more than three days." (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)

"You will see the believers in their having mercy for one another, and in their love for one another, and in their kindness towards one another, like the human body: when one limb is ailing, the whole body feels it, one part calling out the other with sleeplessness and fever." (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)

"None of you has faith until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)

Those who abuse Muslims:

"Bear patiently what they (abusers) say." (20:130)

"Disregard their annoying talk." (33:48)

"When you hear Allah's messages disbelieved in and mocked at, sit not with them until they enter into some other talk." (4:140)

"And if you invite them to guidance, they hear not; and you see them looking towards you, yet they see not. Take to forgiveness and enjoin good and turn away from the ignorant." (7:198-199)

"The Messenger of Allah and his Companions used to forgive the idolaters and the followers of the book (Jews and Christians), as Allah had commanded them, and they used to show patience on hearing hurtful words." (Report in Bukhari.)

Enemies:

"Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34)

"Many of the people of the book wish that they could turn you back into disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from themselves. . .. But pardon and forgive." (2:109)

"And you will always find treachery in them, except a few of them. So pardon them and forgive. Surely Allah loves those who do good to others." (5:13)

NonMuslims:

"Allah does not forbid you concerning those people who do not fight you because of your religion, nor expel you from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly.. . . Allah forbids you only concerning those people who fight you for your religion, and drive you from your homes and help others to expel you, that you make friends of them." (60: 8,9)

"Whatever good they (people of other religions) do, they will not be denied it (by Allah), and Allah knows who the righteous are." (3:115)

"O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and do not let the hatred of a people incite you not to act with justice. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty." (5:8)

"Call (others) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the best manner." (16:125)

"Argue not with the people of the Book (Jews, Christians, and other people having scriptures) except by the best (means), save those of them who act unjustly. But say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit." (29:46)

A companion of the Holy Prophet relates:

"A funeral procession passed by the Holy Prophet, and he stood up for it. People said to him: It was the funeral of a Jew. He said: Was it not a human life?" (Report in Bukhari.)

Mankind in general:

"Mankind is a single nation." (2:213)

"O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into races and families so that you may know each other. The most honoured of you in Allah's sight are those who best keep their duty." (49:13)

"We (Allah) have not sent you (O Muhammad) except as a mercy to the nations." (21:107)

"Speak good words to all people." (2:83)

"Allah commands you that . . . when you judge between people (i.e., of any race, religion, family, class, etc.), you judge with justice." (4:58)

maadhav · October 23, 2004

i agree.

never i said i am god.

servant? sure.

islam has no monopoly to say you are servant of god.

maadhav · October 23, 2004

guest, please pick a muslim user name if you are a muslim.

that would help all.

please show whick of those line mushraf is following or has followed please?

i browsed quickly your post.

most of it is not new to the vedic people.

we have known dharma since milleniums prior to the birth of islam.

now what are the verses that ben ladin quotes and the wahabis and ghauirs quote please?

<< . . Allah forbids you only concerning those people who fight you for your religion, and drive you from your homes and help others to expel you, that you make friends of them." (60: 8,9) >>

so, what the hindu should do to those muslims who invaded their homes and country for 1000 years, and whose decendents are reaping the islamic benefit on the invaded land?

were ghauri and auranzeb not muslims?

what did they do please?

October 23, 2004

I see that you have used the words "fool" 3 times and "nonsense" once in your debate

••i say it perfectly calm and conscious ... do not worry for me

Only intentions are important

••that's your assumption negated by any reality.. if you go to the shop to by apples you want the intention by the shopkeeper to give you the apples and the apples too

I ask whether you are still you even if you lose your head.

••the example is no more pertinent... i am still me because i am a soul and not the body... but this has no significance in our discussion

the weight of the ship is changed...

---How will weight of the ship change if one of the cargo, a cow-dies?

••take the weight of the cargo with all cows, then subtract the weight of one cow and you'll have the new weight of cargo

I as a part of lord am real.I see myself as seperate from lord.That is not real.

••so you changed again your idea... but now it is good... you are part of god, you are real, your existence is real and immortal... when you by god's grace will go back to godhead you'll be no more separated but united in loving relationship with the supreme lord

They survive in different forms always.Not as bodies but as ash,manure,food for insects etc.

••that's not surviving.. surviving means that body is alive

The four sankara peethams established by shankara dont support your view.

••i read bhaja govindam and i respect sri shankara acharya understanding bhaja govinda.... i support the acharya's view

In advaitha stage there isnt any bakthi

••that's my point.... so there's no love, so it is less complete than conditionated life, so it is illogical and a lie

when I know everything also there is nothing more to know.

••in advaita "everything" is not there... in the "everything" there's also variety, love.. so everything is not there, everything is missing, so there's nothing to know... so no CIT in advaita

The child gets transormed into an adult.How am i killing the child?

••adult means that the individual is the same, individuality is still there but the body has changed

Shankara said Bhajagovindham for "fools who dont worship govinda".Fools are in zero stage

••so keep it even at the third, fourth, fifth stage otherwise your process is not a progress but a coming back to the zero..foolishness

Maya is nothing but a yogic power of god.

••so god has complete control on his power and never gets influenced by it

People like shankara reached the advaithic stage first and came back to show us the path,because of the love they had on us

••the spiritual achievements have the charachteristic to be eternal.... if you consider that individuality is illusion no one can come back in illusion when he has reached moksa. And if he per absurd comes back... he cannot demonstrate that he is liberated because his liberation cannot be communicated or shown.

My opinion is that Shankara's ultimate teaching is bhaja govindam... other things are to give a rudimentary form of religion to the atheists to save them from buddhism

They told us, "you fools,you are actually in los-angeles.But becasue of maya you think that you are in new york.Open your eyes"

••if there's a THEY and a US... there's also a new york separated by los angeles

Maya is not master of my senses.It is the illusion that covers my eyes.

••what eyes are if not organs of the sight sense?

Govinda is the master of my senses.

••through maya... he is mastering you through his maya's energy. So you and govinda are different realities

I am only reflecting shankara's views.How is that blasphemising?

••shankara's view is "worship govinda".... no "find govinda and blasphemy him saying that there's something beyond"... do not be a "mudha mate"

October 23, 2004

And the main reasone this thought has developed in Man is that we were equiped by logic and many other things that make sure to us that if something is created then there is a creator. The teachings of islam could be concidered the last edition of all religions

••the fact that you are speaking of developement says that your idea is not evolute. God is eternal, his existence is eternal, his creation who is also inside his existence is eternal. So creatures are eternal and man's form is the reflection of a form present in the transcendental world

for the rest of your message you have my appreciation

maadhav · October 23, 2004

to both the debators and hindus in general:

we the vedic people have this dwaita-advaita debates since the time of creation. it is not going to end; but it is a family matter, and we should not let the world - anti vedic people - exploit it to cause fight among us and divide us.

we always have debated in most civil ways and very frequently. the greatest vaishnava aacharyas have debated it with the greatest advaita aacharyas of their times, and there is record of these debates. so, i recommend that we accept their conclusion and not re-debate it, because we are no where near to the level of these aacharyas.

instead, let us focus on the external threat on the vedic culture and dharma and rashtra from the ani-vedic people and ideologies. devamrita swamis has done it.

for any activity to succeed, it requires a secure place to do that activity freely without any hinderance or fear. so, to do any yoga, including bhakti yoga requires a land and freedom to practice yoga on that land fearessly and without any ridicule. so, we need to create that condition on the vedic land bharat. that is the first priority for the vedic people at this time. and that is not a selfish desire, because vedic culture is for all humans, just as the water of ganga and yamuna is for all.

so, please divert your effort in that direction. no dwaiti or advaiti has conducted any orgainsed massive campaign to eradict the other. in contrast the andi-vedic people do have done it for 1000 years and still are doing it right on the vedic land. so, please wake up.

dwaiti or adwaiti, we all are sanatana dharmis.

October 23, 2004

i say it perfectly calm and conscious ... do not worry for me

--That makes it even more worrisome.

if you go to the shop to by apples you want the intention by the shopkeeper to give you the apples and the apples too

----If by mistake he gives me diamonds i'm not going to bother.

the example is no more pertinent... i am still me because i am a soul and not the body... but this has no significance in our discussion

------you couldnt argue on this point.you lost.

take the weight of the cargo with all cows, then subtract the weight of one cow and you'll have the new weight of cargo

---------why should I take out the cow?Its just a change of status.weight remains the same irrespective of whether a cow is dead or alive.Similiarly bhramman remains same whether you lose my individuality or retain it.

so you changed again your idea... but now it is good... you are part of god, you are real, your existence is real and immortal... when you by god's grace will go back to godhead you'll be no more separated but united in loving relationship with the supreme lord

----I never changed my idea.It wasnt my idea at all.It was concept of vedas.I am a part of god and thus I am god.

that's not surviving.. surviving means that body is alive

---The body survives."Everything is either energy or matter and matter is nothing but a form of energy" says science.Body is matter.THus it is energy.And since the body has energy it is surviving.

i read bhaja govindam and i respect sri shankara acharya understanding bhaja govinda.... i support the acharya's view

--------YOu have misunderstood acharya.

In advaitha stage there isnt any bakthi

••that's my point.... so there's no love, so it is less complete than conditionated life, so it is illogical and a lie

--------In advaitha stage there is a love for yourself,which is nothing but the whole universe.So it has the most complete form of love than visitathvaidhis.

in advaita "everything" is not there... in the "everything" there's also variety, love.. so everything is not there, everything is missing, so there's nothing to know... so no CIT in advaita

-----------Advaitha converts variety into oneness.It converts selective love to universal love.So nothing is missing.

Shankara said Bhajagovindham for "fools who dont worship govinda".Fools are in zero stage

••so keep it even at the third, fourth, fifth stage otherwise your process is not a progress but a coming back to the zero..foolishness

------------will you always study what you studied in first standard?First standard was a starting point.If you remain there forever you will not learn anything new.

so god has complete control on his power and never gets influenced by it

------Like how I immerse my hand into water,lord immerses his hand into maya.When he chooses his body part to be subject to his yogic power,why cannot he do it?

adult means that the individual is the same, individuality is still there but the body has changed

----------Even that individuality will change into universality in the ultimate stage,advaitha stage.

My opinion is that Shankara's ultimate teaching is bhaja govindam... other things are to give a rudimentary form of religion to the atheists to save them from buddhism

------------You mean to say that shankara was a diplomat who twisted vedas to cheat buddhists to enter it.Great respect you have on shankara.

if there's a THEY and a US... there's also a new york separated by los angeles

------------New york and Los angeles both are USA.So there is no seperation.

what eyes are if not organs of the sight sense?

------------when you close your eye lids,eyes cannot see anything.Similiarly when maya covers you, you cannot see anything.

through maya... he is mastering you through his maya's energy. So you and govinda are different realities

-------------He is a master in suguna bhramman stage.In nirguna bhramman stage we both are same.

shankara's view is "worship govinda".... no "find govinda and blasphemy him saying that there's something beyond"... do not be a "mudha mate"

--------------when your father joined you in school and went abroad,will you stay there forever saying "my father wanted me to join school.So I always will be in school?"

October 23, 2004

Madhav,

I made a vow not to debate with visitathvaidhis earlier.Suddenly this guest equated advaitha with islam.So i got angry and the debate started.I wont leave him till he promises to go to Rameshwaram and worship the shivalinga there to remove his sin of calling advaitha as islam.

October 24, 2004

if you go to the shop to by apples you want the intention by the shopkeeper to give you the apples and the apples too

----If by mistake he gives me diamonds i'm not going to bother

••so if you make discriminations between apples and diamonds ..intentions are not enough

the example is no more pertinent... i am still me because i am a soul and not the body... but this has no significance in our discussion

------you couldnt argue on this point.you lost.

••you have lost your brain... you used this example to say that god changes because he generates parts.And the exampleis not pertinent because the real person never changes even if his head is cut and the body dies

Its just a change of status.weight remains the same irrespective of whether a cow is dead or alive.Similiarly bhramman remains same whether you lose my individuality or retain it.

••the weight of the cargo does not measure the weight of the soul... the life of brahman is eternal, so the life of his parts are eternal too. So if when i come back in brahman i lose my individual life.. it is illogical.. because no life stops or gets the end

I am a part of god and thus I am god.

••you are not god otherwise you did not forget it...

And since the body has energy it is surviving.

••the energy who makes the body alive in the individual soul... if this individual life merges in the brahman's life.. his life is lost and he cannot come back to you to explain what's advaitism. So if someone says: "i am merged..." he lies

YOu have misunderstood acharya.

•it is very easy to understand when terms are simple: bhaja..worship.. govinda.. the person sri krsna..

In advaitha stage there is a love for yourself

••advaita means oneness.. now you are speaking of a subject , you..... an action, the love..... and an object, you... three things not ONE

Advaitha converts variety into oneness.It converts selective love to universal love.So nothing is missing.

••converting says that something is no more existing in his original reality but it is changed in something else. The absolute cannot miss what were existing in the past, the "selective" love... and he cannot miss what you'll have after transformation "the universal love"

So both are eternal and simultaneous.... the problem that in advaita there's no love, universal or selective, is already explained

will you always study what you studied in first standard?First standard was a starting point.If you remain there forever you will not learn anything new.

••but you are speaking of forgetting.. not of adding other culture. So if the acharya says "worship govinda"... when you stop worshiping govinda you are not progressing

Like how I immerse my hand into water,lord immerses his hand into maya

••lord and maya are not separated that his hand is in a place and maya in another

When he chooses his body part to be subject to his yogic power,why cannot he do it?

••and who is part? we are the parts... so we get illuded by maya, not the owner of the part

Even that individuality will change into universality

••that's a death and a birth... this is illogic when you speak of transcendence

You mean to say that shankara was a diplomat who twisted vedas to cheat buddhists to enter it.Great respect you have on shankara.

••buddah was an avatara with the purpose of giving a system of thought to the complete atheists... shankara acharya's purpose was to teach some spirituality to the buddhists... the lord and his messengers come to save us... where's the problem?

New york and Los angeles both are USA.So there is no seperation

••oneness and variety..simultaneous, they're all usa, but they are different too

when you close your eye lids,eyes cannot see anything.Similiarly when maya covers you, you cannot see anything.

••the difference is that in the first circumstance it is my free will, not an external force who closes my eyes

He is a master in suguna bhramman stage.In nirguna bhramman stage we both are same

••god is not limited by times and places... he's master in "any" brahman

So I always will be in school?

••if the master is govinda..you'llbe forever a little pupil. Govinda is unlimited, his science is unlimited

Suddenly this guest equated advaitha with islam

••i was not exact.... advaita as philosophy is much worst than islam.... at least they worship god

I wont leave him till he promises to go to Rameshwaram

••i'd be very happy to go in ramesvaram and to pay again and again prostrated dandavats to siva lingam, so i consider your one a benedition.... but, for your conception, why you care of ramesvaram?if all is the same, if los angeles is new york, why to go in ramesvaram makes difference?

and why i have to worship siva lingam if all is the same?why i can't worship a television or a bycicle in my home?

you are illogical and contraddictory

October 24, 2004

so if you make discriminations between apples and diamonds ..intentions are not enough

----Discriminations are for dwaidhis who see all things differently.We advaithis have the universal mentality of Lord Ram who only saw Sabari's love when she gave him tasted fruits.So we advaithis and lord Ram prefer intentions than actions.When Kannapa gave meat to shiva on love he ate it.When kannapa spat saliva from his mouth to clean shivalinga,lord shiva did not see his action.He only saw his intention.Pure love.So we advaithis and god prefer intentions.U vishitathvaidhis prefer actions.

the real person never changes even if his head is cut and the body dies

------So cut your head and kill your body.You say you are real,dont you?

the life of brahman is eternal, so the life of his parts are eternal too. So if when i come back in brahman i lose my individual life..

--------You lose your individual life and become bhramman.

you are not god otherwise you did not forget it...

---------I am part of god,not full god.

if this individual life merges in the brahman's life.. his life is lost and he cannot come back to you to explain what's advaitism. So if someone says: "i am merged..." he lies

--------------The bhramman himself came in his form and explained it to us.Parabhramman himself came as acharya shankara and explained it to us.

it is very easy to understand when terms are simple: bhaja..worship.. govinda.. the person sri krsna..

--------------That is the problem with you guys.If in kindergarden they teach you "A for Apple.." it doesnt mean that "A stands only for apple".That was an example.A can be for ant,auto anything.YOu guys still stick with "A for Apple".Move to other words too.

advaita means oneness.. now you are speaking of a subject , you..... an action, the love..... and an object, you... three things not ONE

---------I love myself.My love is also me.I am my feelings.I am my actions.So where are 3 things?

So both are eternal and simultaneous.... the problem that in advaita there's no love, universal or selective, is already explained

_-----------you think that your explanation is the end to all doubts on advaitha.Advaitha's love considers all universe to be himself and love everything as himself.So its universal love.An advaithis love is only eternal and boundless.It has no reasons.It comes from experiencing all universe as himself and mixing with it.It is very difficult for dwaidhis to even think about such a universal love.

but you are speaking of forgetting.. not of adding other culture. So if the acharya says "worship govinda"... when you stop worshiping govinda you are not progressing

-------When vedas said "mathru devo bhava" did they mean that you should never be mother yourself and always be a child?Mathru devo bhava is when you are a kid.When you mature you yourself become mother .Similairly worship govinda is when you are muda mathe.when you become matured you yourself realise that you are bhrammam.Simple.

lord and maya are not separated that his hand is in a place and maya in another

-------maya is a power of god.Like how I have the power to close my eyes.If I close my eyes i cannot see.So here voluntarily i chose not to see.That is illusion.open your eyes,you attain advaitha.even though eye can see anything it cannot see the interior of its eyelid.Similiarly an advaithi can see anything except maya.Advaitha is waking up.Dwaidhi is closing eyes.

and who is part? we are the parts... so we get illuded by maya, not the owner of the part

--------who is the owner of the part?Nobody.Who owns your hand?Is it your brain?No.It controls the hand.It doesnt own it.All parts jointly own each other.All are one.Each has its own roles.Thats all.Hand cannot think,brain cannot throw balls.Each does its functions.The sum total of all parts only is you.The sumtotal is the owner.Not a part.

buddah was an avatara with the purpose of giving a system of thought to the complete atheists... shankara acharya's purpose was to teach some spirituality to the buddhists... the lord and his messengers come to save us... where's the problem?

---------so you mean buddha,who was totally unvedic and who totally rejected the concept of god was the lord and adi shankara who said "bhaja govindam" as his disciple.How more can you insult acharya shankara?Tell me.

oneness and variety..simultaneous, they're all usa, but they are different too

-----You come closer here.They are all USA=advaitha.They are different=dwaidha.And you know which view is good.Los angelians will feel proud to say that they are americans than as losangelians.So such a universal advaithic view is better than parochial dwaidhic view.You trapped yourself by your words.

god is not limited by times and places... he's master in "any" brahman

------No he is master only in suguna bhramman stage.In nirguna bhramman stage he and me are one and same.

if the master is govinda..you'llbe forever a little pupil. Govinda is unlimited, his science is unlimited

-------Since my master is good he will coach me to become a master by myself.Its like a guru coaching another student to become guru in future.

i was not exact.... advaita as philosophy is much worst than islam.... at least they worship god

--------Now that you said this I wont leave you until you accept defeat and take bath in 21 theerthams of rameshwaram and apologize to lord shiva for this blasphemy and anti vedism.

but, for your conception, why you care of ramesvaram?if all is the same, if los angeles is new york, why to go in ramesvaram makes difference?

---------Because Rameshwaram is the place where Lord Ram removed his bhrammahathi sin by praying to shiva.I thought that since govinda was your master the disciple too would be interested in following his master.

and why i have to worship siva lingam if all is the same?why i can't worship a television or a bycicle in my home?

--------If you have the mentality to see bhramman in TV and Bicycle in your home you will have the mentality to see bhramman inside you too.Since you dont have that mentality,since you are a dwaidhi who sees god only in temples and idols,I asked you to go there.If you really see god in TV and Bicycle you become an advaithi.

maadhav · October 25, 2004

vijai bhava.

October 25, 2004

So we advaithis and god prefer intentions.U vishitathvaidhis prefer actions.

--and i consider both that is the most sober thing (i'm not vishistadvaiti)

So cut your head and kill your body.You say you are real,dont you?

--you have given your self the answer "my" head... "my" body... so there's a "me" who possess head and body... he's the real individual..eternal

You lose your individual life and become bhramman.

--so your opinion is false... life is eternal, life does not "become" or change

I am part of god,not full god.

--and you are eternally part.. if you where the whole you were not illuded by maya

The bhramman himself came in his form and explained it to us

--from brahman nothing comes who is not real and eternal... so if there's an individual brahman form i agree

Parabhramman himself came as acharya shankara and explained it to us.

--of course... all these individualities are eternal.. no merging.

That is the problem with you guys.If in kindergarden they teach you "A for Apple.." it doesnt mean that "A stands only for apple".

--bhaja govinda poem is not a dictionary..... something has multiple meanings, something has exclusive meaning. Bhaja Govinda means "worship govinda"..where's the difficulty, are the kindergarten boys more advanced than you?

I love myself.My love is also me.I am my feelings.I am my actions.So where are 3 things?

--now they are 5.... the subject, the love,the object, the actions,the feelings........... anymore?

Advaitha's love considers all universe to be himself and love everything as himself

--again subjects, objects and actions...where's advaita? the one is ONE... not ONE+LOVE+FEELINGS...

It is very difficult for dwaidhis to even think about such a universal love.

--who make distinctions between himself and the universe can love... Everyone exist eternally so i can say eternally "I LOVE YOU". If there's no discriminations and all is ONE, love is not possible... (universal love is THREE not one.. : you, the love, the universe).

If advaita were true... the advaiti would have impossibility to understand and experience love.. not difficulty

When you mature you yourself become mother .Similairly worship govinda is when you are muda mathe

--to be a servant of god is not a condition limited in time...i am not god and god is eternally supreme. So i never became father in comparison with god... The acharya is calling fool, the arid intellectuals who do not worship... not the ones who are worshiping. Otherwise he should have said "worship until you are stupid then merge.."

If I close my eyes i cannot see.

--god sees even with closed eyes..

Advaitha is waking up

--you are in this world because you are envious of the supremacy of god. If you follow some theory that makes you believe that you can become god, it is the worst disgrace. That's why islam is better... at least they worship the supreme

who is the owner of the part?Nobody

--there's not anything outside god... so god is the owner

Who owns your hand?

--me

All parts jointly own each other.All are one.Each has its own roles

--under the direction of the soul

The sum total of all parts only is you.

--i have yesterday cut my beard and nails... i want to assure you that i am still myself

The sumtotal is the owner.Not a part.

--i agree... the total (god) is the owner.... the part (you or me)is subordinate

so you mean buddha,who was totally unvedic and who totally rejected the concept of god was the lord

--buddah is an avatar

adi shankara who said "bhaja govindam" as his disciple

--shankara acharya is shiva......... study a little..and why disciple (according to human meaning) if he rejected buddhist conclusions?

How more can you insult acharya shankara?

--you insult the acharya saying that his instructions are for kindergarten

You come closer here.They are all USA=advaitha.They are different=dwaidha.And you know which view is good.Los angelians will feel proud to say that they are americans than as losangelians.

--so very nice.... there's not advaita in these conclusions.. we have disticntions and definitions: "i am losangelian and not newyorker.. both we are usa".. so many things! Where's oneness?

You trapped yourself by your words.

--you admitted both positions... so if there's two positions, it is meaningless to believe in exclusive oneness

Since my master is good he will coach me to become a master by myself

--but he's eternally your master... because his science has no end...he's god... god is endless. You can be a master, but never the master of god

Now that you said this I wont leave you until you accept defeat and take bath in 21 theerthams of rameshwaram and apologize to lord shiva for this blasphemy and anti vedism.

--if you came to my house and you pay the plane ticket i am ready to do it... i would be extremely happy to homage lord shiva. And it has a meaning for me because i never will think to be shiva...or rama..... or krsna....

I thought that since govinda was your master the disciple too would be interested in following his master.

--and you are very kind and gentle.... but i understand that you are advicing me to make a worship that you believe to be false and useless. This makes me sorry

If you have the mentality to see bhramman in TV and Bicycle in your home you will have the mentality to see bhramman inside you too

--why not? brahman is everything... everything belongs to god...

Since you dont have that mentality,since you are a dwaidhi who sees god only in temples and idols

--it is not my problem...and you think that god is everywhere but not in the house of god and in the person of god.... let us go together to ramesvaram (remember that you will pay the tickets)

If you really see god in TV and Bicycle you become an advaithi.

--i see god in the matter who aggregates in tv,bycicle and the supreme god in govinda/ram/vishnu/varaha and so on...

be a muslim and you'll make a great advancement, much better that being so in maya to believe to be the supreme lord

October 25, 2004

thanks madhav.

October 25, 2004

---and i consider both that is the most sober thing (i'm not vishistadvaiti)

That is why you stand poor compared to advaithis.And its not surprisng that you arent v.advaithi.They are good.

---you have given your self the answer "my" head... "my" body... so there's a "me" who possess head and body... he's the real individual..eternal

"My" includes head and body too.My is me."that dwam ithi"-that you are.

so your opinion is false... life is eternal, life does not "become" or change

---Life is eternal subject to changes.

from brahman nothing comes who is not real and eternal... so if there's an individual brahman form i agree

-------From bhramman comes bhramman himself who is eternal and real.

something has multiple meanings, something has exclusive meaning. Bhaja Govinda means "worship govinda"..where's the difficulty, are the kindergarten boys more advanced than you?

-------Baja govindam has only 1 meaning.worship govinda.Who will give difficult stuff to kindergarden boys?

Difficult stuff will be given to scholars only.

now they are 5.... the subject, the love,the object, the actions,the feelings........... anymore?

-----We see all this as one.If you see it as 5 you arent even dwaidhi.Dwaidhis see all as two.So you must be even worse than dwaidhis.You must be "fivedhi"

again subjects, objects and actions...where's advaita? the one is ONE... not ONE+LOVE+FEELINGS...

It is not 1+1+1=3.It is 1*1*1=1

to be a servant of god is not a condition limited in time...i am not god and god is eternally supreme. So i never became father in comparison with god... The acharya is calling fool, the arid intellectuals who do not worship... not the ones who are worshiping. Otherwise he should have said "worship until you are stupid then merge.."

--------He dint call advaitha sanyasins as mudda mathe.He called only dwaidhis who dint even worship as muda mathe.

god sees even with closed eyes..

---then why he needs to close his eyes?

you are in this world because you are envious of the supremacy of god. If you follow some theory that makes you believe that you can become god, it is the worst disgrace. That's why islam is better... at least they worship the supreme

-----Blasphemy again.Krishna counted 100 sins of jarasandha and punished him then.You have said this for 10th time or so.

there's not anything outside god... so god is the owner

----When there isnt anything outside god how can he be the owner?

All parts jointly own each other.All are one.Each has its own roles

--under the direction of the soul

-------------Which is nothing but yourself."Tath dwam ithi"

(That you are)

i have yesterday cut my beard and nails... i want to assure you that i am still myself

------I want to assure you that you are under infulence of maya.

--buddah is an avatar

he is a blasphemiser of vedas.No wonder another blasphemiser of vedas(you) calls him as an avathar.

you insult the acharya saying that his instructions are for kindergarten

------unfortunately he faced kindergarden students too.He gave advice for them too.

so very nice.... there's not advaita in these conclusions.. we have disticntions and definitions: "i am losangelian and not newyorker.. both we are usa".. so many things! Where's oneness?

------we are all americans is oneness.If you go below that stage and call yourself as newyorker you go down one stage.Thats dwaidha

if you came to my house and you pay the plane ticket i am ready to do it... i would be extremely happy to homage lord shiva. And it has a meaning for me because i never will think to be shiva...or rama..... or krsna....

-----For your blasphemies you dont deserve a plane ticket.Go by walk to rameshwaram.

and you are very kind and gentle.... but i understand that you are advicing me to make a worship that you believe to be false and useless. This makes me sorry

-----------for dwaidhis like you its useful.Children need a walking aid.Not matured ones.For kids its useful,not for matured ones.

it is not my problem...and you think that god is everywhere but not in the house of god and in the person of god.... let us go together to ramesvaram (remember that you will pay the tickets)

---------for your sins you deserve a pathayathra to rameshwaram.I never sinned.So i need not go.

i see god in the matter who aggregates in tv,bycicle and the supreme god in govinda/ram/vishnu/varaha and so on...

----so worship tv,bicycle and radio

First Experience for Islam

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