First Experience for Islam

[Guest guest]

That is why you stand poor compared to advaithis

••so poor that you are able only to tell me that i am poor without demonstrating it.. of course i am poor, but enough rich for you it seems

 

"My" includes head and body too.My is me

••naah.. my car is not me

 

Life is eternal subject to changes.

••not in his ontological sense... life does not take birth and does not die

 

From bhramman comes bhramman himself who is eternal and real

••yes.. personal brahman and impersonal brahman... both are eternal

 

Difficult stuff will be given to scholars only.

••if they have not yet learned the kindergarten's stuff, how are they scholars?

 

We see all this as one

••you can see what you want... even mickey mouse

 

If you see it as 5 you arent even dwaidhi.Dwaidhis see all as two

••dvaita means that in the absolute there's variety fully manifested.. not that reality is two subjects

 

It is not 1+1+1=3.It is 1*1*1=1

••i understood what is your problem..but thanks to have explained to me again

 

He dint call advaitha sanyasins as mudda mathe.He called only dwaidhis who dint even worship as muda mathe.

••a dvaiti knows the difference and the supremacy of govinda.. so he worships or he's not a dvaiti, he's an atheist. It is advaitis that do not worship. So the instruction "worship govinda.." is for the ones who do not do it

 

god sees even with closed eyes..

---then why he needs to close his eyes?

••god has no need... if he had needs he would not be god

 

Krishna counted 100 sins of jarasandha and punished him then.You have said this for 10th time or so.

••a sin against krsna is to say that there's something beyond him.. the nirguna brahman. That's a real big sin

 

When there isnt anything outside god how can he be the owner?

••he's omnipotent... he's simultaneously creation and the owner of creation. If he's the whole,in the whole there's also supremacy. Where comes fromthe concept of supremacy if it is not in god?

 

Which is nothing but yourself.

••of course... i am individual spiritual soul... eternally..no birth,no death, no merging (=death)

 

I want to assure you that you are under infulence of maya.

••yes i am.. it is nota secret...... me is me, god is god.. and he's using his energy to keep me and you in ignorance. So let us worship him to get some light. If you say the nirguna is more than govinda you are not calling for light but for darkness

 

he is a blasphemiser of vedas.No wonder another blasphemiser of vedas(you) calls him as an avathar.

••study a littlethe puranas, read jayadeva's dasavatara.. there's many things you can do to save yourself from this ignorance

 

we are all americans is oneness.If you go below that stage and call yourself as newyorker you go down one stage

••there's not below and above, high and low... both is real.. losangelian and american... where's the problem?

 

For your blasphemies you dont deserve a plane ticket.Go by walk to rameshwaram

••too long.. i'll pray lord shiva in my home.I'll follow his instruction to "bhaja govindam.."

 

for dwaidhis like you its useful.Children need a walking aid.Not matured ones

••if you are a matured one it seems to me that you have stopped walking (=worshipping govinda) not increasing

 

for your sins you deserve a pathayathra to rameshwaram

••thousands of pathayatras i need..not one!

 

I never sinned.So i need not go.

••for your conception you are a great sinner... otherwise how is that you are not yet disappeared and merged?

 

so worship tv,bicycle and radio

••worshiping govinda i worship everything... worshiping the whole but saying that govinda is not the whole.. you are missing everything

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I offer my humble obeisances unto Him!

 

Yes, the Gopis did worship Durga to get Krishna. Iam not aware of the exact Vediac text, but i have read the translation and it is in the "Krishna" book written by Prabhupada!

 

Read it, you will understand the whole picture.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

---so poor that you are able only to tell me that i am poor without demonstrating it.. of course i am poor, but enough rich for you it seems

 

Now you call yourself as richer than me without demonstrating it.

 

----naah.. my car is not me

This is dwaidham.Your car and you are made of atoms and hence both are same.

 

not in his ontological sense... life does not take birth and does not die

-----but it is subject to changes via illusion.

 

yes.. personal brahman and impersonal brahman... both are eternal

-----and that imperosnl bhramman is none other than us.

 

you can see what you want... even mickey mouse

-----He who seeks mickey mouse gets mickey mouse.He who seeks moksha gets moksha.

 

a dvaiti knows the difference and the supremacy of govinda.. so he worships or he's not a dvaiti, he's an atheist. It is advaitis that do not worship. So the instruction "worship govinda.." is for the ones who do not do it

----------The instruction "read alphabets" is not for those who master the language.It is for those who are illiterates.So if u go and teach alphabets to pundits they will laugh at you.

 

god has no need... if he had needs he would not be god

--------------exactly.YOu got my point.An advaithi too doesnt have any needs.So he too is god.

 

 

••i understood what is your problem..but thanks to have explained to me again

 

-------I also understand what your problem is.Illusion.

 

••a sin against krsna is to say that there's something beyond him.. the nirguna brahman. That's a real big sin

-------------when we say nirguna bhramman took form of krishna and became suguna bhramman how is that a sin?

 

he's omnipotent... he's simultaneously creation and the owner of creation. If he's the whole,in the whole there's also supremacy. Where comes fromthe concept of supremacy if it is not in god?

----Be cool.Dont confuse yourself.How can he be the created and creator at the same time.Did he create himself then?

 

yes i am.. it is nota secret...... me is me, god is god.. and he's using his energy to keep me and you in ignorance. So let us worship him to get some light. If you say the nirguna is more than govinda you are not calling for light but for darkness

---if you dont realize that govinda is one of the names for nirguna you live in further darkness.Nirguna can be called by any names.

 

study a littlethe puranas, read jayadeva's dasavatara.. there's many things you can do to save yourself from this ignorance

-------Your ignorance will not disappear until you go to rameshwaram and clear your bhramahathi.

 

there's not below and above, high and low... both is real.. losangelian and american... where's the problem?

---------that is not real. illusion.

 

too long.. i'll pray lord shiva in my home.I'll follow his instruction to "bhaja govindam.."

-------------Also then follow his instruction of advaitha.

 

if you are a matured one it seems to me that you have stopped walking (=worshipping govinda) not increasing

------------ya,im flying.Im not walking.

 

thousands of pathayatras i need..not one

------------ya,so start with one atleast.

 

for your conception you are a great sinner... otherwise how is that you are not yet disappeared and merged?

------------My only sin was talking to you.

 

worshiping govinda i worship everything... worshiping the whole but saying that govinda is not the whole.. you are missing everything

-----worship everything means you worship you too.Why do you worship yourself?Are you god?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

I wish you all the best, you are debating with someone if I am correct in assuming is the same person I had been debating with. Looks like he has an acute case of vaishnavities, to the point that he calls Lord Shiva a jiva.

And further quotes this,

Worshipping Lord Shiva as the source of all spiritual and material worlds is not true religion.

 

They have no respect for lord Shiva and their devotees; they forget that oldest known temple to man kind is of lord Shiva.

 

Some of them also discuss the merit of Subhadra and Bhadra, and feel happy amongst them self when they state that the one is internal superior energy of lord and the other is external inferior energy; they forget the energy and the energetic can not be separated.

 

What is more amazing is that they are both sisters of Lord Krishna; can you imagine supreme lord discriminate between the two? Only fools like me who are envious of the Lord can think so.

 

What disturb me more is some of them are happy to side with Muslims (cow killer) even though they are so anti Vedic.

 

I am happy to be in a company of advaiti, it is a concept derived from Vedas, and Lord Krishna does not deny this path either.

 

 

 

Question, is it 21 or 22 tirtha kund at Rameshvara?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

----naah.. my car is not me

This is dwaidham.Your car and you are made of atoms and hence both are same.

••i'm not made by atoms... i am spiritual soul

 

not in his ontological sense... life does not take birth and does not die

-----but it is subject to changes via illusion.

••the subject of life is the same.. the individual

 

yes.. personal brahman and impersonal brahman... both are eternal

-----and that imperosnl bhramman is none other than us.

••and personal brahman is different..oneness and difference .. simultaneously

 

He who seeks mickey mouse gets mickey mouse.He who seeks moksha gets moksha

••so search moksa instead of illusion

 

The instruction "read alphabets" is not for those who master the language

••the instruction is clear, worship govinda... you are trying desperately to demonstrate that's for neophites but you can't

 

An advaithi too doesnt have any needs.So he too is god

••have not you any need? do you still eat and drink?

 

I also understand what your problem is.Illusion.

••so please take me out explaining to me something intelligent

 

when we say nirguna bhramman took form of krishna and became suguna bhramman how is that a sin?

••it is a greatest sin... because krsna is ultimate reality,he has no origin, he depends from nothing. Your purpose is to say that you and krsna are the same.. great blasphemy. Please be a muslim, you'll advance!

 

How can he be the created and creator at the same time

••nothing is created,everything is eternaland emanated by the supreme. He exists and also the subordinated parts exist simultaneously. He's in and out..nothing impossible, he's god

 

f you dont realize that govinda is one of the names for nirguna you live in further darkness.Nirguna can be called by any names.

••nirguna means "no feature". Names are for features..govinda means one who protects, vishnu means one who sustains, krsna means all attractive.... so how can nirguna have features?

 

Your ignorance will not disappear until you go to rameshwaram and clear your bhramahathi.

••my ignorance is better than your culture if you do not give proper answers... but i am happy if you pray that one day i will go in ramesvaram (study puranas and dasavatara)

 

too long.. i'll pray lord shiva in my home.I'll follow his instruction to "bhaja govindam.."

-------------Also then follow his instruction of advaitha.

••yes .. i am simultaneously different and not different by god... very easy

 

for your conception you are a great sinner... otherwise how is that you are not yet disappeared and merged?

------------My only sin was talking to you.

••situation does not change..you are still an individual.. so you are not realized... so you are a sinner

 

worship everything means you worship you too

••worship essentially means to love... loving god i am loving also myself, no doubt. If you give something to a father, you are giving it to all family

 

Are you god?

••i am not supreme..

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

he calls Lord Shiva a jiva.

––where?

 

(politic is your religion... do not try to cheat posing as sanatana dharmi)

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(he calls Lord Shiva a jiva.

––where?))

 

If you are the same person i had been debating with i be happy to quote.

How ironic person who is so personal about god is afraid to have an ID on this forum.

 

Re

(politic is your religion... do not try to cheat posing as sanatana dharmi)

 

What ever, where have i cheated you?

for your info., i do not belong to any party nor any sect.

If i pose as a sanatana dharmi one day it will help.

if you like the muslim, why dont you become one?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

••i'm not made by atoms... i am spiritual soul

Dont tell scientists.They will laugh at you

 

••the subject of life is the same.. the individual

who is caught in maya

 

••and personal brahman is different..oneness and difference .. simultaneously

do we have 2 bhrammans then or one?Do we have 2 gods then?

 

••so search moksa instead of illusion

ya,advaitha moksha

••the instruction is clear, worship govinda... you are trying desperately to demonstrate that's for neophites but you can't

when i was in kindergarden my mother said read alphanbets.I still remember that.That instruction is still clear in my mind.

 

••have not you any need? do you still eat and drink?

Im a dwaidhi trying to be advaithi

 

••so please take me out explaining to me something intelligent

ya,stop blasphemising

 

it is a greatest sin... because krsna is ultimate reality,he has no origin, he depends from nothing. Your purpose is to say that you and krsna are the same.. great blasphemy. Please be a muslim, you'll advance

 

please read the previous advise.You will advance.Its not me who said i and krishna are same.vedas said "thath dwam ithi" (that you are god).so are they wrong?

 

••nothing is created,everything is eternaland emanated by the supreme. He exists and also the subordinated parts exist simultaneously. He's in and out..nothing impossible, he's god

If he exists as the subordinate ones too does that mean that he is inferior to himself?

 

••nirguna means "no feature". Names are for features..govinda means one who protects, vishnu means one who sustains, krsna means all attractive.... so how can nirguna have features?

when it becomes suguna bhramman it has features

 

••my ignorance is better than your culture if you do not give proper answers... but i am happy if you pray that one day i will go in ramesvaram (study puranas and dasavatara)

Thats not enough to redeem your sins.Dont forget to sprinkle water of holy 21 theerthams.

 

••situation does not change..you are still an individual.. so you are not realized... so you are a sinner

Like how Lord Ram suffered for sinners i too suffer for your sins.

 

••worship essentially means to love... loving god i am loving also myself, no doubt. If you give something to a father, you are giving it to all family

So are you and father the same?

 

Are you god?

••i am not supreme..

Then are you demi god?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

••i'm not made by atoms... i am spiritual soul

Dont tell scientists.They will laugh at you

--i believed you were a spiritualist not an atheist

 

••the subject of life is the same.. the individual

who is caught in maya

--yes.. the individual.. not god

 

••and personal brahman is different..oneness and difference .. simultaneously

do we have 2 bhrammans then or one?Do we have 2 gods then?

--no.. the same with infinite aspects and qualities. Everything is in god

 

when i was in kindergarden my mother said read alphanbets

--and now you remember it, you have not forgotten. So if"bhaja govinda" is kindergarten and you do not do it, go back in kindergarten and learn

 

••have not you any need? do you still eat and drink?

Im a dwaidhi trying to be advaithi

--yes.. it is clear that you're speaking of something that you do not practice and feel

 

vedas said "thath dwam ithi" (that you are god).so are they wrong?

--yes.. i am god in quality but i am infinitesimal, subordinated... if i were supreme i were not in maya

 

If he exists as the subordinate ones too does that mean that he is inferior to himself?

--he is simultaneously everything... if you like to play with words it's up to you

 

when it becomes suguna bhramman it has features

--our experience is that who has features can leave features.. saguna is the origin of nirguna... not the opposite

 

hats not enough to redeem your sins.Dont forget to sprinkle water of holy 21 theerthams.

--again i accept your benedition

 

Like how Lord Ram suffered for sinners i too suffer for your sins.

--if you discriminate between rama, sufferings, the sins, you and me... you are not realized as an advaiti

 

••worship essentially means to love... loving god i am loving also myself, no doubt. If you give something to a father, you are giving it to all family

So are you and father the same?

--no.. to receive the same gift or to enjoy the gift together is different from being the same individual

 

Are you god?

••i am not supreme..

Then are you demi god?

--subordinated... the percentage it is up to god

 

 

[imported_servegod]

Ganeshprasad, I am the one you were debating with about Shiva and Krsna. This is the first post I have submitted in this thread, so don't confuse...

 

And to clear up:

 

Vishnu Tattva - Krishna and avatars of Vishnu (spiritual, does not engage in illusory energy)

 

Shiva Tattva - Shiva (spiritual, but engages with illusory energy or shakti)

 

Jiva Tattva - souls (spiritual, but covered by illusory energy)

 

Prakrti - Material Energy (illusory energy)

[Guest guest]

--i believed you were a spiritualist not an atheist

Does spirituality exclude science?

 

the individual

who is caught in maya

--yes.. the individual.. not god

Individual if you have maya.God is you remove it

 

--no.. the same with infinite aspects and qualities. Everything is in god

Small correction.Along with "everything is in god" add "everything is god"

 

--and now you remember it, you have not forgotten. So if"bhaja govinda" is kindergarten and you do not do it, go back in kindergarten and learn

I am doing PHD(advaitha)Why should I go back to kindergarden?

 

Im a dwaidhi trying to be advaithi

--yes.. it is clear that you're speaking of something that you do not practice and feel

If I am school should i not like to go to college?

 

--yes.. i am god in quality but i am infinitesimal, subordinated... if i were supreme i were not in maya

Glad that you accepted that you were god.

 

If he exists as the subordinate ones too does that mean that he is inferior to himself?

--he is simultaneously everything... if you like to play with words it's up to you

You lost the debate.Thats the truth.Got trapped by your own words.I knew this will happen.

 

--our experience is that who has features can leave features.. saguna is the origin of nirguna... not the opposite

Chicken or egg,who was first?

 

--again i accept your benedition

glad to hear it

 

no.. to receive the same gift or to enjoy the gift together is different from being the same individual

Ultimate gift is advaitha stage.You get that by bakthi,

 

--subordinated... the percentage it is up to god

Its 100%.Dont worry.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--i believed you were a spiritualist not an atheist

Does spirituality exclude science?

••but it does not put it at the first place

 

--yes.. the individual.. not god

Individual if you have maya.God is you remove it

••to be the supreme is an eternal condition

 

Small correction.Along with "everything is in god" add "everything is god"

••both are correct, the important thing for our discussion is that everything is not supreme.. there's supreme and subordinates

 

I am doing PHD(advaitha)Why should I go back to kindergarden?

••you are not PHD if you do not remember kindergarten. And you are not even human if you say that "bhaja govinda" is a kindergarten stuff

 

--yes.. it is clear that you're speaking of something that you do not practice and feel

If I am school should i not like to go to college?

••a true school gives progressive understanding and realization... your school cannot do it, because you cannot lose individuality progressively

 

Glad that you accepted that you were god.

••this is not our discussion.. our discussion is about supremacy

 

If he exists as the subordinate ones too does that mean that he is inferior to himself?

--he is simultaneously everything... if you like to play with words it's up to you

You lost the debate.Thats the truth.Got trapped by your own words.I knew this will happen.

••ok..let's play with the kid:

"If he exists as the subordinate ones too does that mean that he is inferior to himself?"

••god is everything,in everything there's supremacy and subordination.But there's also variety, so there's supreme individual and subordinate individuals.. this is demonstrated byt the fact that you're in maya. So you are part of god, you are subordinate... no contraddiction

 

--our experience is that who has features can leave features.. saguna is the origin of nirguna... not the opposite

Chicken or egg,who was first?

••for modern evolution theory.. egg was first. For our discussion this example is useless

 

Ultimate gift is advaitha stage.You get that by bakthi,

••no.. advaita is worst... it is without features.. i like features.

 

--subordinated... the percentage it is up to god

Its 100%.Dont worry.

••so why you send me to ramesvaram to wash my sins? better you study islamism... you are more fit for it

 

[Guest guest]

••but it does not put it at the first place

But second and first should not contradict

 

••to be the supreme is an eternal condition

That is advaitha stage

 

Small correction.Along with "everything is in god" add "everything is god"

••both are correct, the important thing for our discussion is that everything is not supreme.. there's supreme and subordinates

If "everything is god" is correct how come inferiority and superiority arise?Is god inferior to himself?You lost the debate.Accept it.You were trapped by your own words.

 

••you are not PHD if you do not remember kindergarten. And you are not even human if you say that "bhaja govinda" is a kindergarten stuff

I remember kindergarden.But I dont stop with it.I advance.Ya,i am not human if i forget the kindergarden stuff.I become god.

 

••a true school gives progressive understanding and realization... your school cannot do it, because you cannot lose individuality progressively

you attain wholesomeness progressively.See things in positive angle.

 

••this is not our discussion.. our discussion is about supremacy

If everything is god,then nothing is supreme and nothing is subordinate.How can everything be god and one thing be superior to another?explain.

 

••god is everything,in everything there's supremacy and subordination.But there's also variety, so there's supreme individual and subordinate individuals.. this is demonstrated byt the fact that you're in maya. So you are part of god, you are subordinate... no contraddiction

 

If Maya is removed then what?One moment you say everything is god,nect moment you say one thing is inferior.You just reassert,dont give any explanation.

 

--our experience is that who has features can leave features.. saguna is the origin of nirguna... not the opposite

Chicken or egg,who was first?

••for modern evolution theory.. egg was first. For our discussion this example is useless

 

Who was the egg then?Nirguna or suguna?Why did suguna become nirguna then?

 

••no.. advaita is worst... it is without features.. i like features.

God without features is nirguna bhramman.So do you like nirguna or not?

 

••so why you send me to ramesvaram to wash my sins? better you study islamism... you are more fit for it

To remove your sins I suggested Rammeshwaram.You suggest islam to me.So is islam your best method to remove sins?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

But second and first should not contradict

-human science is contradictory because is human.. so it is not necessary to twist religion to fit it in science

 

••to be the supreme is an eternal condition

That is advaitha stage

--wrong.. if there's supreme there's also subordinates. So the existence of supemacy is variety

 

If "everything is god" is correct how come inferiority and superiority arise?

--already said... it comes from variety. If you have variety in the matter,you must have variety also in the spirit.

 

You lost the debate.Accept it.You were trapped by your own words.

--you were trapped by your own mind if you believe that there's no variety and being you in maya, the whole brahman is in maya. There's no much to accept or reject,i'm in maya, you're in maya, the supreme lord sri krsna/vishnu is not in maya.You are behaving like one who is sick of cancer and he's playing with the doctor trying to make word juggleries to demonstrate that he is not sick. To understand your ontological position and search for the right way for liberation, is your interest, not a game

 

I remember kindergarden.But I dont stop with it.I advance.Ya,i am not human if i forget the kindergarden stuff.I become god.

--many contraddictions... first you remember, than you forgot because you become god

 

you attain wholesomeness progressively.

--no... in the last second before merging in the whole (if possible) you are an individual. So there's no gradual progress, so you are speaking of something you have not yet experieneced and no one has experienced it otherwise he had not the possibility to preach it. So you are following a fantasy

 

If everything is god,then nothing is supreme and nothing is subordinate.How can everything be god and one thing be superior to another?explain.

--variety... if you have variety in the materiel world, there's variety also in the spiritual one. Matter cannot create anything. Please, do not be boring, i said it this thing many times.. find something else to defend your position

 

If Maya is removed then what?

--if maya is removed me and you remain subordinate and the lord goes on being the supreme. Maya is an energy different by me and you, "is removed" means that the Lord removes it, not us...

 

Why did suguna become nirguna then?

--there's no becaming... evertything is eternal.. there's no reason because the lord is not subjected to reasons... nirguna is contained in saguna because "no qualities" is a quality

 

God without features is nirguna bhramman.So do you like nirguna or not?

--i like the lord.. lord has infinite qualities. If among these qualities there's the possibility to manifest without qualities (and surely there's) i am happy to have found another quality

 

To remove your sins I suggested Rammeshwaram.You suggest islam to me

--you said repeatedly that you do not need ramesvaram, that you do not discriminate between you and god, between being at home or go in pilgrimage.. islamism could be a great progress. At least you'd understand the supremacy of god and that there's pilgrimage places more charged of spiritual energy than ordinary places. Islam is much more advanced than you

[Guest guest]

-human science is contradictory because is human.. so it is not necessary to twist religion to fit it in science

Even religion is contradictory.Even religion has human element in it.So do we remove the human element from it?

 

--wrong.. if there's supreme there's also subordinates. So the existence of supemacy is variety

You confuse yourself by saying god is all,but god has varities,one variety of god is superior to another and so on.It is not your mistake actually,its mistake of the misinterpretation of vedas which you follow.If everything is god why do you need variety?Do we need variety of gods?

 

--you were trapped by your own mind if you believe that there's no variety and being you in maya, the whole brahman is in maya. There's no much to accept or reject,i'm in maya, you're in maya, the supreme lord sri krsna/vishnu is not in maya.You are behaving like one who is sick of cancer and he's playing with the doctor trying to make word juggleries to demonstrate that he is not sick. To understand your ontological position and search for the right way for liberation, is your interest, not a game

Kanchi sankaracharya explained this as follows.In a movie screen so many images run.But the screen is not affected by it.Likewise bhramman is not affected by maya even though it appears to be so.Its like sleeping.we are parts of god.when we remove maya we merge with god.Simple.

 

--many contraddictions... first you remember, than you forgot because you become god

I did not forget it.But I dont need it then.

 

--no... in the last second before merging in the whole (if possible) you are an individual. So there's no gradual progress, so you are speaking of something you have not yet experieneced and no one has experienced it otherwise he had not the possibility to preach it. So you are following a fantasy

In the last second before a 100 year man dies he is alive,so he died suddenly.How logical this is?He must have fallen sick,gone to hospital and must have had operations and died.LIkewise advaitha is gradual.

 

--variety... if you have variety in the materiel world, there's variety also in the spiritual one. Matter cannot create anything.

Material world has sins too.So does spiritual world have sin too?Advaitha believes that nothing was created.Everything was eternal according to advaitha.

 

--if maya is removed me and you remain subordinate and the lord goes on being the supreme. Maya is an energy different by me and you, "is removed" means that the Lord removes it, not us...

In maya we are subordinate.Without maya we are equals in nirguna stage.

 

--there's no becaming... evertything is eternal.. there's no reason because the lord is not subjected to reasons... nirguna is contained in saguna because "no qualities" is a quality

You say everything is eternal here.yet before this you said mass doesnt create and lord creates.If everything is eternal how can anything be created?

 

--i like the lord.. lord has infinite qualities. If among these qualities there's the possibility to manifest without qualities (and surely there's) i am happy to have found another quality

That is in suguna stage.Nirguna stage has no qualities.

 

--you said repeatedly that you do not need ramesvaram, that you do not discriminate between you and god, between being at home or go in pilgrimage.. islamism could be a great progress. At least you'd understand the supremacy of god and that there's pilgrimage places more charged of spiritual energy than ordinary places. Islam is much more advanced than you

So the truth is out.Since you believe that Islam only will save me and not lord krishna, I bet that you believe in allah than krishna.If you strongly believe in krishna why do you suggest an anya devatha to me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Even religion is contradictory

••sometimes.. only apparently

 

Even religion has human element in it

••if there's human elements, it is not real religion

 

You confuse yourself by saying god is all,but god has varities,one variety of god is superior to another and so on.

••you like to play.. i have many times explained why these positions are necessary and simultaneous.. no contraddiction. God is omnipotent.

 

If everything is god why do you need variety?

••i do not need variety.. variety is there and it is every where. you do not see it?

 

Do we need variety of gods?

••one lord, infinite manifestations

 

Likewise bhramman is not affected by maya even though it appears to be so

••of course spirit is not affected by illusion, but indeed me, you and innumerable individuals are living in this universe being subjected to maya. So it is not realistic that everyone is subjected, there must be ONE who is controlling everything and who's controlling also maya who controls ourselves.

I can imagine what i want, but i cannot deny that reality is not under my control.. so i am god because god is all, but simultaneously i am different because i am illuded and god is never illuded

 

Its like sleeping

••ok... but if the universe is not sleeping, someone who never "sleeps" is necessary

 

In the last second before a 100 year man dies he is alive,so he died suddenly.How logical this is?

••it is logical... no one is half died or 75% died or 99.99999999999% died. One is dead or alive. In the same way one is existing as individual ore he's not existing... So if you are alive and individually speaking with me you are 0% advaitin. So you are speaking of a fantasy

 

Material world has sins too.So does spiritual world have sin too?

••the perspective is the opposite... spiritual world has all variety of activities, they are all sat, cit , ananda. Material world is like spiritual world but minus eternity, consciousness and bliss... so with death, ignorance and sorrow. Any activity who is originally done in spiritual atmosphere is godly, but when it is performed in this world is polluted by death, ignorance and sorrow.. so there's sins

 

Everything was eternal according to advaitha.

••i agree... and if everything is eternal, also our individuality is eternal. If you believe that before we were merged and we will merge in future, you are saying that our present individual life, our soul, is not eternal...

 

In maya we are subordinate.Without maya we are equals in nirguna stage

••you said that everything is eternal... we cannot be individual and subordinate in a limited time. Wr are eternal and we are not the supreme

 

You say everything is eternal here.yet before this you said mass doesnt create and lord creates.

••mass does not create.. so you cannot speculate that variety and relationships are only in the matter. The lord's creation has not starting point, lord's creation is eternal and simultaneous with the creator. We can call it emanation. It does not seems to me that i have spoken of a creation who starts in a moment and that before was not existing... but if i did it i am happy to rectify

 

--i like the lord.. lord has infinite qualities. If among these qualities there's the possibility to manifest without qualities (and surely there's) i am happy to have found another quality

That is in suguna stage.Nirguna stage has no qualities.

••no problem for me.... everything is better than nothing, and knowing everything i will know also the nothing. So better to worship govinda than to live with the fantasy to merge in brahman

 

Since you believe that Islam only will save me and not lord krishna, I bet that you believe in allah than krishna

••not exact... being the allah explanation of the lord somewhat hidden, impersonal and undefined, i thought that for you as a pseudoadvaitin, it would be a little more familiar than krsna who is the all'attractive because he has all the qualities fully and openly manifested.

But if you make further progress and from advait-atheism you go directly to krsna bhakti i have no objection

 

 

[Guest guest]

Even religion is contradictory

••sometimes.. only apparently

Always.With people misunderstanding it like dwaidhis and v.advaithis exist it tends to contradict.

 

••if there's human elements, it is not real religion

Many devotional songs were written by humans directly.Isnt that human element?

 

••you like to play.. i have many times explained why these positions are necessary and simultaneous.. no contraddiction. God is omnipotent.

Ok,i spare you on this point.

 

••i do not need variety.. variety is there and it is every where. you do not see it?

what I see as variety is illusion.

 

••one lord, infinite manifestations

But all are same.All are god.

 

***I can imagine what i want, but i cannot deny that reality is not under my control.. so i am god because god is all, but simultaneously i am different because i am illuded and god is never illuded

Parts of god can be illuded by his wish.

 

••ok... but if the universe is not sleeping, someone who never "sleeps" is necessary

Suguna bhramman is awake stage.Nirguna is sleeping stage.

 

••it is logical... no one is half died or 75% died or 99.99999999999% died. One is dead or alive. In the same way one is existing as individual ore he's not existing... So if you are alive and individually speaking with me you are 0% advaitin. So you are speaking of a fantasy

Have you not heard of people who were dead and came alive due to gods grace like nachikethas?Advaithin saints reached advaitha and being there told it to us so that we too can get advaitha moksha.Its their mercy for us.

 

***If you believe that before we were merged and we will merge in future, you are saying that our present individual life, our soul, is not eternal...

Even now we are eternal.Always we are eternal.But merging is reuniting with god.

 

**••you said that everything is eternal... we cannot be individual and subordinate in a limited time. Wr are eternal and we are not the supreme

In dwaidha stage we are subordinate.In advaitha stage we are god himself.

 

***The lord's creation has not starting point, lord's creation is eternal and simultaneous with the creator.

 

If everything is eternal what did got create?Explain.Advaitha asnwers this beautifully.It says creation is like a spiderweb coming out of spiders mouth and pralay means spider eating it again.So we always are eternal.what is dwaidha explanation for this?

 

••no problem for me.... everything is better than nothing, and knowing everything i will know also the nothing. So better to worship govinda than to live with the fantasy to merge in brahman

Every scientist was insulted as a dreamer.Without fantasy no dreams come true.

 

••not exact... being the allah explanation of the lord somewhat hidden, impersonal and undefined, i thought that for you as a pseudoadvaitin, it would be a little more familiar than krsna who is the all'attractive because he has all the qualities fully and openly manifested.

But if you make further progress and from advait-atheism you go directly to krsna bhakti i have no objection

why did you call me pseudo advaithin?What is your definition for advaithi then?tell me.

 

So according to you shankaras disciples are worse than muslims.Great sense of solidarity you have with fellow vedic followers.To ask somebody who live by vedic dharma to leave it is a great sin.I doubt now whether even rameshwaram will savce you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Always.With people misunderstanding it like dwaidhis and v.advaithis exist it tends to contradict.

--it is people who misunderstands, not religion

 

Many devotional songs were written by humans directly.Isnt that human element?

--these humans are fully connected with the lord, so it is like the lord is writing their songs. Otherwise these songs are not religious

 

what I see as variety is illusion.

--so illusion cannot be better than reality... so reality has variety

 

••one lord, infinite manifestations

But all are same.All are god.

--already said, do not be repetitive, we are god and simultaneously different by god... it is obvious and not difficult to understand

 

Parts of god can be illuded by his wish.

--you're right... parts of god, like me and you, can be illuded by the supreme god..by THEIR wish

 

Suguna bhramman is awake stage.Nirguna is sleeping stage.

--nothing is unconscious in the trascendence

 

Have you not heard of people who were dead and came alive due to gods grace like nachikethas?

--this does not change our perspective.... you cannot be 20% alive and 80%dead or 35% merged and 65% individual.

 

Even now we are eternal.Always we are eternal.But merging is reuniting with god.

--merging is the end of a kind of life... the individual one.. so it is contraddictory because life is eternal

 

In dwaidha stage we are subordinate.In advaitha stage we are god himself

--you like to repeat your blind faith without thinking about it... god does not have stages... he's god in all stages, he's omnipotent and forever conscious. So there's not a stage where you are not god and you feel it, and a stage where you arenot and you do not feel. So please be creative and reflect, respect your and mine intelligence. These are very omportant subjects for our lifes.. if you feel that you do not have more answers it is the sign that your idea is not so right and it is your advantage to change it

 

If everything is eternal what did got create?

--the everything you see is created by god.. but it is created and sustained eternally,not from a specific moment

 

Advaitha asnwers this beautifully.It says creation is like a spiderweb coming out of spiders mouth and pralay means spider eating it again.

--you arenow speaking of material manifestation who's only a little minuscule part of all existence. But it is all'right, there's a creator who creates and destroys ciclically.. it is more exact to say that he combines and disgregates,because also matter is eternal. So there's the Lord who is the creation, but simultaneously separated by it.. nice explanation

 

So we always are eternal

--of course.. our individual life is eternal

 

Every scientist was insulted as a dreamer.Without fantasy no dreams come true.

--if you have no answers.... be honest...

 

why did you call me pseudo advaithin?

--pseudo means "fake".... you are pseudo because you do not speak of your experiences but of fantasies and theories. Like one who's not a doctor but speaks of medicine

 

Great sense of solidarity you have with fellow vedic followers

--vedic followers? vedic scriptures say that we have to surrender to god and that god is supreme... if you think different where's vedic following?

 

To ask somebody who live by vedic dharma to leave it is a great sin.

--wich dharma? you despise krsna and you blasphemy him saying that he's not supreme but there's something beyond and you call yourself dharmic?

 

i repeat it...anyone who worships god, even if in a rudimentary way,is much more vedic and dharmic than one who blaspheme him

 

 

 

 

 

 

[imported_servegod]

 

Hare Krishna

 

i'm not going to argue on the philosophy, because guest is already addressing that. I would like to show some interesting things which should make those folowing impersonalist philosophy think again.

 

1) Shankaracarya in Baja-Govindam says "Adore Govinda, O fool, When the appointed time (for departure) comes,

the repetition of grammatical rules will not indeed save you" - so one must adore the Lord...

 

"Repeated birth, repeated death and repeated lying in

mother's womb - this transmigratory process is extensive and

difficult to cross; save me, O destroyer of Mura (Krsna), through your grace." - only by the grace of God doe we get released from samsara

 

"the form of the lord of Lakshmi ( Vishnu) should be always meditated on;" - ALWAYS meditated on. Not that there comes a point when one is equal to Vishnu.

 

"Being devoted completely to the lotus-feet of the Master" - exactly, devotion, bhakti-yoga.

 

 

 

 

2) All the most revered and distinguished figures from the Vedas are eternal servants of God. They never claim to be equal to God. Do you ever hear Narada Muni claiming to be equal to Narayana? Do you ever hear Hanuman claiming to be equal to Rama? Does Arjuna after hearing Bhagavad Gita tell Krishna that he is now one with him, equal to him? Or are you impersonalists saying that Arjuna and Hanuman and Narada Muni are not fully self-realised?

 

 

 

Please ponder on those points, because it is illogical to think that the marginal energy (Jiva) can ever become equal to the Potent (Purusha).

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

Shankara also said to adore mother Lalitha and said that all three moorthies do pranaam to her feet.Now are you willing to accept that too?

 

Taking just a piece of a stothra and saying that it exempliefies his teaching is twisting facts to your convenience.Shankara taught advaitha to whole world and to say he just said "bhaga govindham" is misrepresentation.Even though I admire your bakthi on Govinda I disagree with you guys on your views of shankara.

 

How will servents of god claim to be equal to god?I am no way equal to all those devotees you quoted like Naratha and arjuna,but they are examples for bhakthi yoga.They chose to remain devotees to show way to all of us to Bakthi yoga.We need acharyas for each yoga.For karma yoga we have king janaka,for bakthi yoga we have hanuman and naratha and for jnana yoga we have advaithin acharyas.Each tread in a different path to reach the same goal.

 

Marginal energy isnt marginal always.At nirguna bhramman stage it equals the lord.This is what shankara taught us.

[Guest guest]

--it is people who misunderstands, not religion

Its religion that makes people misunderstand(except advaitha all religions)

 

--these humans are fully connected with the lord, so it is like the lord is writing their songs. Otherwise these songs are not religious

what about the prayers I and you do in temple?Doesnt that have a human elemnent in it?

 

--so illusion cannot be better than reality... so reality has variety

Reality minus illusion doesnt have any variety,

 

--already said, do not be repetitive, we are god and simultaneously different by god... it is obvious and not difficult to understand

Not difficult to understand if you are a V.advaithi or dwaidhi.

 

--you're right... parts of god, like me and you, can be illuded by the supreme god..by THEIR wish

yes.Remove it and reach advaitha moksha

 

--nothing is unconscious in the trascendence

Its not unconsciousness.Its god being in a stage of yoga.

 

--this does not change our perspective.... you cannot be 20% alive and 80%dead or 35% merged and 65% individual.

In advaitha there is no death.So your example of death is meaningless to an eternal advaithi.

 

--you like to repeat your blind faith without thinking about it... god does not have stages... he's god in all stages, he's omnipotent and forever conscious. So there's not a stage where you are not god and you feel it, and a stage where you arenot and you do not feel. So please be creative and reflect, respect your and mine intelligence. These are very omportant subjects for our lifes.. if you feel that you do not have more answers it is the sign that your idea is not so right and it is your advantage to change it

How do you know?Did you find out by trance?You reiterate your achrayas views.I reiterate my achrayas views.

 

--the everything you see is created by god.. but it is created and sustained eternally,not from a specific moment

(this quote was also from you.see you have answered yourself)---"But it is all'right, there's a creator who creates and destroys ciclically.. it is more exact to say that he combines and disgregates,because also matter is eternal."

 

--if you have no answers.... be honest...

If you dont understand answers be honest.

 

--pseudo means "fake".... you are pseudo because you do not speak of your experiences but of fantasies and theories. Like one who's not a doctor but speaks of medicine

So what does the employees of a pharmacy speak about?Dont they speak about pharmacy?Dont customers speak about medicine?In your life have you ever not talked about medicine?

 

--vedic followers? vedic scriptures say that we have to surrender to god and that god is supreme... if you think different where's vedic following?

 

Thats your version of vedas.Thats misinterpretation.

 

--wich dharma? you despise krsna and you blasphemy him saying that he's not supreme but there's something beyond and you call yourself dharmic?

Thats your version of vedas.How do you say thats the correct one?

 

repeat it...anyone who worships god, even if in a rudimentary way,is much more vedic and dharmic than one who blaspheme him

If I become a msulim I have to destroy all krishna idols in my house and start eating beef.Is that acceptable to you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Its religion that makes people misunderstand(except advaitha all religions)

••your misunderstanding is manifest because you go against even to the simplest reality

 

what about the prayers I and you do in temple?Doesnt that have a human elemnent in it?

••if there are not divine they aren't real prayers

 

Reality minus illusion doesnt have any variety

••i have already debated with you the fact that reality cannot miss of anything who is there in illusion. So if there's variety in illusion.. we have variety also in reality.

That's the last time i give this answer until you bring a new real objection

 

--already said, do not be repetitive, we are god and simultaneously different by god... it is obvious and not difficult to understand

Not difficult to understand if you are a V.advaithi or dwaidhi.

••so stop to be advaiti if it does not give to you sufficient understanding.Think about this principle without any prejudice and blind faith and you'll understand easily

 

--nothing is unconscious in the trascendence

Its not unconsciousness.Its god being in a stage of yoga.

••yoga means that God gets illuded by maya? yoga means connection, not disconnection

 

In advaitha there is no death.So your example of death is meaningless to an eternal advaithi

••no problem for me.. so if you are still individual you are 0% advaitist... who speaks to you of advaitism is 0% advaitist. It is impossible to be individual and not individual simultaneously

 

You reiterate your achrayas views.I reiterate my achrayas views.

••no.. that's simple logic... god does not go through stages.. he's eternally omnipotent and conscious.

(acharya means one who teachs by example.. how can an advaitin give and example of advaitism if he stops to existas individual and he merges? so advaitins do not existand advaita masters do not exist)

 

--the everything you see is created by god.. but it is created and sustained eternally,not from a specific moment

(this quote was also from you.see you have answered yourself)---"But it is all'right, there's a creator who creates and destroys ciclically.. it is more exact to say that he combines and disgregates,because also matter is eternal."

••where's the contraddiction? existence is eternal... material existance even if subjected to be combined and recombined is also eternal. read better

 

--pseudo means "fake".... you are pseudo because you do not speak of your experiences but of fantasies and theories. Like one who's not a doctor but speaks of medicine

So what does the employees of a pharmacy speak about?

••employee have some experience so he can speak.You have no experience of advaitism otherwise you were not existing and writing in the forum.

 

--vedic followers? vedic scriptures say that we have to surrender to god and that god is supreme... if you think different where's vedic following?

Thats your version of vedas.Thats misinterpretation.

••no interpretation is needed... you simply read with clean mind and you'll understand.. for example read bhagavad gita without prejudices.. read exactly what's written

 

--wich dharma? you despise krsna and you blasphemy him saying that he's not supreme but there's something beyond and you call yourself dharmic?

Thats your version of vedas.How do you say thats the correct one?

••my version? read it without useless twisting and you'll understand

 

If I become a msulim I have to destroy all krishna idols in my house and start eating beef.Is that acceptable to you?

••better if you start to worship krsna avoiding islamism and advaitateism...otherwise now you are already destroying krsna's image saying that he's not supreme.

And while you are doing that HUGE offence to eat some meat risks to be relatively not important

 

I have seen that you are a great expert of Ramayana.. do not waste your intelligence and competence and start to accept that Sri RAM is the absolute reality, that he's the supreme, and that you will NEVER be Him and you'll happily remain eternally his faithful servant. In this way you'll get moksa even within this very life..

 

Advaitism is a fantasy, no real advaitist can give you teachings and example, because if he's individual he's not yet realized (for this "philosophy").. and you can find if it is true or if you were cheated only after your death.... so do not waste your life..worship Govinda, worship Sri ram and SripadaShankaracharya too will be happy..

 

be intelligent

[imported_servegod]

Hare Krishna

 

 

"Shankara also said to adore mother Lalitha and said that all three moorthies do pranaam to her feet.Now are you willing to accept that too?"

 

From what I have heard, Shankara's mission as sent down by Lord Shiva, was to preach impersonalist philosophy, so obviously there are going to be things said that are not consistent with personal realisation of God. All I am saying is that Shankara says one should 'ALWAYS MEDITATE ON VISHNU' - so there is no time when one becomes Vishnu, u have to constantly pray to him i.e. become a devotee, a Vaishnava.

 

 

"How will servents of god claim to be equal to god?I am no way equal to all those devotees you quoted like Naratha and arjuna,but they are examples for bhakthi yoga.They chose to remain devotees to show way to all of us to Bakthi yoga.We need acharyas for each yoga.For karma yoga we have king janaka,for bakthi yoga we have hanuman and naratha and for jnana yoga we have advaithin acharyas.Each tread in a different path to reach the same goal."

 

Exactly, advaitin acharyas, of whom only Shankara is described in the Vedas. And even he says to become a devotee. And his mission is written in the Vedas, that he is sent by Lord Shiva in order to defeat Buddhism.

 

 

 

"Marginal energy isnt marginal always.At nirguna bhramman stage it equals the lord.This is what shankara taught us."

 

 

So in other words, God can be affected by illusion - therefore he is not omniscient, therefore the whole advaitin philosophy breaks down...

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

The arguement of advaita and vishistadvaita has been eternal... for a hindu practically, as a kid he begins with prayers to god...he listens to stories of mahabarata and hanuman, pillayar, murugar, and ramayan, goes to temple with his pareants....

 

(and if he falls in the wrong company in school and college gets brainwashed by his christian friends....and if he is smart enough as a shoe, understands the greatness of Bharat and hindu dharma and stays as a hindu).

 

But, when a person matures and starts thinking..... he can feel the divinity everywhere. Prahalada knew this even as a kid.

So he starts realisng that, its all god, and god is everywhere.

Before he realises that, he starts thinking all are different and god is present in certain forms. Where as, the reality is, there is nothing except god.

 

And as he matures further, he realises that..... self realisation is the ultimate answer...

 

This sounds a bit complicated to some philosophers, and they are happy with the duality. Becuase realising the non dual nature involves going beyond the self, which most people cannot understand and are afraid.

 

In tamil filim, there is a song " Irukkum idatthai vittu illathta idam thedi.. engengo alaiginrar gnana thangame..." It means.... people are searching for god everywhere else, except where he is ie...in the people themselves.

 

I agree with priya that, it takes a lot of thinking and lot of paradigm shifts to realise advaita... and his analogy of school and college etc. If you still fail to see the point, there is something seriuosly wrong.

 

And another point I find objectionalbe is, you are failing to see the sum of all vedas and literature. You take only those portions that agree to one particular gur's view point. Its like the five blind men story of the panch tantra.

 

So request you to think a lot, and do a lot of reading before jumping into the forum again with the same worn out arguements.

[Guest guest]

But, when a person matures and starts thinking..... he can feel the divinity everywhere. Prahalada knew this even as a kid.

•yes.. but ultimately he finds a person, sri nrsmhadeva, not the nirguna brahman

 

This sounds a bit complicated to some philosophers, and they are happy with the duality. Becuase realising the non dual nature involves going beyond the self, which most people cannot understand and are afraid.

••it is not so complicated if it is considered that the reality can be simultaneoulsy personal and impersonal. God has to be omnipervasive because everything is god.. but god has also to be an individual because we cannot deny to him the possibility to relationate. So we have bhagavan and brahman, param brahman and brahman.. bot at the same level of divinity

 

And another point I find objectionalbe is, you are failing to see the sum of all vedas and literature. You take only those portions that agree to one particular gur's view point. Its like the five blind men story of the panch tantra.

•the sum of vedas speak of the supremacy of the personal lord sri krsna/vishnu. The ones, like prya, who wants to see a supremacy of nirguna brahman have to twist the direct meaning saying, for example, that when shankara acharya says "bhaja govinda" he is speaking for kindergarten children.. and that "sarva dharma.." verse of bhagavad gita says "leave even the duty to surrender to krsna.."

 

if you twist in this way the vedas are advaitist.. no doubt